To involve the CSA?(59 Posts)
Hoping to canvass opinion here on whether or not I'm heading down the right road.
Comnunication is not great between my ex and I. We have periods of getting on fine, then for a myriad of reasons, it becomes bad again...and not just a brief falling out, but spectacularly bad. We rarely have shouting matches..his preferred method is to wait til he gets home and then send lengthy from his and his wife detailing all my failings as a parent...and without fail, there will be a reference in it somewhere to how I am paid above and beyond what they have to. This comment will be made in spite of the fact that I have never once raised the issue of money with him.
It never fails to amaze me, given that the maintanence aspect is one thing we have never disagreed about and yet it is routinely thrown into an email in relation to a completely different discussion. Its patently obvious he resents the money, yet he says he takes his financial contribution to his dd 'very seriously'. Exp pays regular maintanence for DD, we have an informal arrangement, and has never missed a payment etc - it just never comes up between us verbally. He pays a set amount, and this hasnt changed in the 5 years since we split. In fact it went down last year by £100 per month after the birth of his new baby. This was suggested by me as I thought it would be the fair thing to do. To be honest, I am always trying to find ways to improve things between us and thought this might be one of the ways to do. As with most things though, he took the reduction, but reminded me it wasn't a 'favour' to him, but something he was thinking about anyway, now that our dd's childcare costs had gone down. (!)
He is notoriously tight, when we were together money was an actual obsession for him, so its clear to me that while he pays the maintanence, it is a source of discontentment between him and his wife. It makes me feel like a money grabbibg shit bag when he throws these comments into the emails or texts - and yet he will not say one word to my face about it. Its so bizzare. I don't think he is trying to scare me about withdrawing or reducing it, because I have a decent job...and in all honesty, if I relied on it, we would have starved by now!
I have never once in all the years approached him for extra money or asked him to pick up any costs for dd outside of his payment
So, my thoughts are.....I have no control over his routine put downs about my parenting, but I am now thinking that I can formalise maintanence so he can shut the fuck up about paying me 'over and above' what he has to. I may well get less by going down the CSA route, but I don't care. He does a 30 mile round trip to collect dd, and she sleeps there twice a week, plus he has a new family, so I'm well aware this will all be taken into account when assessing his contribution. He is self employed and would probably cook the hell out of his books anyway.
As an aside,my own DP wants me to refuse maintanence from him altogether, because he believes that the amount is pathetic and hates the way he batters me over the head with it every time he gets the chance. I will of course not do this as it will play into his hands, but I'm thinking that formalsing our arrangement will remove at least one more thing he can control me with.
Hmmm this is a difficult one, and I can see where you are coming from completely because I have similar issues with my exh.
If you think that by going to the CSA you will inflame the situation I would be tempted to stick to your current agreement, but if you don't think it will then I would go to the CSA.
I think with money..it wouldnt matter if I told him he could pay 5pence a week...he would still throw it into his nasty emails as part of a totally unrelated issue. I'm not sure if it will improve anything other than my own sense of peace...i just hate the way he uses it to hit me with. It will likely infuruate him, but tbh...communication has all but broken down now anyway
Phone the CSA, and tell him why.
He sounds controlling
How much does he pay a month?? It must be quite a bit if u reduced it by £100 a month.
If i reduced my csa payments from my ex by £100 id owe him £100 because i get bugger all from my ex & thats through the csa.
he pays £200, was £300 until 18m ago
as hes self employed it will be very very easy for him to not have to pay you anything or just £5pw, it is a real risk that you need to concider even if the csa tell you its not
the company he owns went to limited company status a while back - does this mean he isnt sekf employed anymore?
If he pays on time, I think I would first try to calculate what the CSA amount would be. If going to CSA would lead to a significant reduction, I would keep taking the cash and ignore the emails.
trouble is I have no way of knowing what earns. Not a clue.
If you involve the CSA, be aware they do not move fast and are not efficient or effective. I contacted the CSA when DS was 3, because his dad decided he was "paying too much", so stopped. They still haven't managed to get any maintainance from him. And DS is 17 now.
I dont want to sound flippant, or like I could afford to lose this amount of money every month, because it would affect me a lot...but I simply cannot stand the way it makes me feel. It would remove one more method he uses to make me feel like shit. And believe me, he has many methods.
If you can afford to not get the money, then it sounds like the CSA might make things a bit easier for you.
I think, and I know this is easier said than done, that you need to just stop letting him get to you. My ex was always making little digs like this, but it was like water off a ducks back to me. He was the one who left me and needed to justify his behaviour by making me out to be the bad one. Oh well. You have a lovely supportive DP now, so that should make it a little easier.
I agree with Ghost here. I am currently being taken to tribunal by my ex who hung up on CSA and ignored their post until they had to go to his work to extract the money. He now blames me for jeapordising his job. He is also blaming me for the 5.5k he has spent hiring a solicitor to 'defend' him against having to pay maintenance for his DD. These men will use any excuse to berate you and adding a new ingredient to the pot will only stir it further. I think you just have to be glad he does pay and let him make whatever remarks he likes because actually, it shows it is eating him. Let him get huffy about it, not you!
No advice on what to do (I have no experience with it, sorry) but this sentence in your OP jumped out at me:
It makes me feel like a money grabbing shit bag when he throws these comments into the emails or texts
Do NOT let him make you feel this way! You are giving him way too much power over you and your emotions. You have to start treating this as a financial transaction, no more no less. Rest assured the bank doesn't feel like a money-grabbing shit bag by demanding you pay your mortgage every month, and neither should you for expecting maintenance that you are entitled to.
Whatever actual decisions you make about the money, remember that people can only make you feel bad if you let them. Don't let them! It's their way of controlling you, and in this case the way your ExP controls you. Don't give him that control.
i wish i could let it be water off a ducks back...he criticises me relentlessly, and theres little I can do about that. I just figured this might be one small thing I could change.
I am absolutely staggered that a solicitor would 'defend' someone not wishing to pay maintanence for their children? How is that defensible? on what grounds? scares me to think a solicitor would act for someone with that kind of agenda. I'm sure I am a bit green on matters like this....I have just recently inolved solicitors with my ex over another issue, and although I am scared of the repercussions of that, the one good things is that it should cut down on the shitty emails.
notmyproblem - thanks. I've been trying for years to let it wash over me. I need to do some work on myself, big time
I agree with your DP.
You can live without it so it won't effect you too badly if you don't get it. As it's for DD,ask that he put the money into an account for a car/house/Uni.
He can then take full responsibility for his DD financially and you don't have to feel anything. If she ends up with £50 at the end of it that's down to him.
How about you approach it entirely differently - you say he doesn't say anything to your face so either don't do emails anymore or get your partner to read them. You can just choose not to read them.
I can't imagine how pissed of you could be if he cooks his books out of spite to not pay you at all.
If you can live without the money, them do that for your own peace of mind. But I strongly advise against telling him not to pay anything at all, because really this is your child's money, which he is morally obliged to provide. Tell him to put it into an account for your daughter to access hen he's older. That way SHE still gets the financial support she deserves from her father, but because he isn't paying it to you, he can't use it as ammo in nasty emails.
mmm, I could see him loving this idea tnh....He gets to wade in when she;s 25 with a deposit for a house or something, looking like a generous hero, while I am not able to do anything like that for her because I've been raising her.
Still, I guess the issue here is dd, not me. So that sounds like a good idea
I wouldn't trust him to put the money aside for DD. You can do that for her, if it's not needed to provide for her at the moment.
Just don't read the emails. And I'd be willing to bet that even if you told him to keep his money , he would find another way to harangue and control you - access arrangements probably.
can I block emails? not sure its sensible as we need to arrange contact, but I jsut cant bear to see his name in my invix with an attachement because I known it will be a 3 page letter from him and/or his DW and it sucks the life out of me for days.
I sent a sols letter recently over another matter and in it he was told to contact me only through sols, so hopefully I will have a 'reprieve' of sorts for a while. Trouble is, he will prob hire a solicitor himself, so the letters I get now will be prob be very scary indeed
Can DP read them for you and just make a note of vital information?
Or try sending an email back saying that you are not willing to read a tirade of criticism about yourself but if he wants to post access / communication details separately then you'll read the message.
They may sound scary initially, but really, he is the one who knows how to ring your bells, and that won't be his solicitors agenda.
Keep going, you are almost there as long as he sticks to just sols contact
If he continues then maybe advise him that you are closing yr email account (don't obv) and he should now send any emails to your partner...may make him think twice?
one of the letters he sent me recently was a damning attack on not just me, but on my dp as well (god knows why - dp has no relationship with him whatsoever, and has never got involved in any disputes with him) and the sol said it was a letter the courts would be interested in.
I'm not so sure myseld - the letters he says are written in such a way that he look/sounds like a parent who is sick with worry for DD, all the at the hands of my inadwequate parenting. He also threatens legal on me every time, yet refuses mediation
Sounds like my ex. Controlling tit who needs to 'win' at everything. He never thinks or asks about DD, just goes over and over our situ every text/email. It's the only link he has to you and he will exploit whatever he feels he can, clutching at any straw to see what pushes your buttons. Keep him at arms length and never ever show him what hurts you.
Thanks for the advice, I need to work on some tactics if this is how it's gonna be for the next 10 years
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
NEVER re read his msg's. Try to focus on the important bits you need, glossing over his silly bitchiness and after a while you will do this automatically. It gets boring after a while and you get numb to it, making it much easier to focus on the actual important issues. You will get there.
I used to pour over messages and get quite deep over them, really exactly what he wanted. Don't waste your time and effort
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Agree with charlearose.
if you decide to go through the CSA, i would be very very surprised if you got any money. Your xp will then complain about something else.
Do you honestly think that if you go through the CSA, he'll want to pay what he should be paying, if that is more?
Or he will suddenly stop with the nasty emails?
I would stick with the arrangement you have now and get someone else to read the emails. . . failing that, skim over the ranty bits.
I agree, stick with your arrangement that you have now. Get your partner to read the emails and file them for you.Take the high ground and just smile and ignore. If the money is not that important then put it in an ISA for your DD and then you have a lump sum to give her when she needs it and you look like the best Mum in the world.
No way should you give up the maintenance he pays for your DD
I dont mean to sound critical but what need is there for any communication with him after 5 years apart other than the bare bones of contact arrangements ?
I think maybe as you said you need to work on yourself and find out why you arent emailing him back explaining you have no interest in his nasty little opinions and could he kindly just stick to what needs to be talked about
Going via CSA or giving up maintenance isnt going to change anything just leave you £200 a month worse off and potentially angry with yourself in the future for letting him off the hook
Thanks everyone. I do need the money ( or rather DD does) but I loathe the way both him and his wife make me feel about it and if I had to do without it I would. DP has said he would support her, and in fact, already does to a large extent, because let's face it, £200 a month when your childcare fees alone are £250 doesnt really cut it. If we are splitting the costs of DD in half, that would mean the sum total of his contribution to her living expenses is £75 per month. Jesus. That's less than £20 a week for her clothes, roof, activities, shoes bla bla bla.
Both him and his wife are high earners. I know DW's salary has nothing to do with it, but similarly, I wish she would refrain from using words like 'we pay you more than we are required to'
With regards to the letters and emails, they are absolutely crushing honestly....if it was full of ranty bollocks I could probably get past it with a bit of work. The trouble is they are written in case they would ever make it to court, you know, damning allegations about my parenting, how they only want the best for DD and would love it if I felt the same, how they are 'saddened' at my inability to put her first', how they wish I wouldn't leave her with strangers. Oh god, they are just foul. And they leave me feeling sick for days
So does he want custody of your DD Pingu ?
I would say to your ex that his emails are unacceptable, and that from now on all communication must be sent to your DPs email address. That he will read them, and pass on any relevant information It sounds like your ex is a controlling bully, and like most bullies I imagine he'll be scared to say these things to another man.
Of course, it means your DP may have to read some unpleasant messages, but it seems as if he won't get as upset by them.
Could you see a lawyer? A friend of mine has an emotionally abusive ex-partner with mental health issues - he has brought up their children - and she has a habit of phoning and texting and emailing terrible things. Finally, after almost a decade of tolerance, he consulted a lawyer, who instructed her (via her own lawyer) only to make contact through him. Now most of the communication is via lawyers, and it has massively reduced the stress for my friend.
Think he would happily take dd from me yes, although distance might permit it at the moment ( unless he re-registered her at another school). I have recently instructed a sol, so do expect the emails to calm down a bit anyway, however I guess I'm scared they will sound even worse if they are written by a sol? he has been told to only contact me through them for now
You can't change him - you can change you
Assume that his behaviour will never change and put strategies in place yourself to deal with it.
If you can't deal with his emails at the moment, put an auto-forward on your email so messages from all his addresses are sent somewhere else and deleted from your inbox - send them to your DP, or an inbox you check once a week - whatever works for you.
I've done this many times - my ex used to send me diatribes of criticism of my behaviour, parenting, failures etc etc - it got so wearing, I stopped reading them, sent them to my BF for her to have a good laugh - she told me the salient points and even drafted any replies for me, too
Block his texts and phone calls if these are abusive, harassing or rude.
Arrange hand overs via school or a third party - do not come face to face with him. Minimise the contact you have with him.
Time does help - but you don't have to tolerate unreasonable behaviour.
And yes, I'd go to the CSA.
pingu, I'm not sure what your ex does job-wise but if he's become a limited company it might be worth just out of interest applying to Companies House to get a copy of his latest accounts - just so you can see what his income is. It might be quite informative - you might be able to work out from there whether £200 is a good deal or not (I think for one child he should be giving you 20% of his income) or it might tell you he's cooking his books massively. In which case I'd store that information away as you might want to report him to inland revenue. The CSA will look into whether a person's lifestyle matches what their tax returns say. I'm in a similar situation. The wheels at the CSA grind very slowly but I'm hopeful of a decision next month so in my case it's been worth pursuing, but it's exhausting and emotionally draining dealing with the CSA.
Next I'd start biting back. Tell him his DW is not contributing to your DD so can he stop putting "we". Tell him his emails amount to harassment and if they continue in that vein you'll be speaking to the police. If you discover anything from Companies House I'd also make a few threats of my own - but not on email, verbally - about if he doesn't get his act together and start treating you with a bit more respect you'll be having a word with the inland revenue. You have options. You don't need to take his shit.
If he's been told by a solicitor only to contact you through them, then his emails should stop, and that should help If he does contact you directly despite being told not to, don't even read the email: just forward it, and your solicitor will deal with it.
It won't sound worse through a solicitor... Your ex's solicitor isn't free to be rude or libellous, as you ex may feel he can be: he will be obliged to 'translate' any horrible ranty statements and/or allegations that your ex makes into something that doesn't break any laws. So if your ex says (for instance) "She's a rubbish mother; she never puts DD first; she did X, Y and Z", the solicitor will ask him if he has any evidence for X, Y or Z, and if there isn't any, won't put any of those allegations in writing. Instead he will write something neutral like "My client has expressed some concerns and seeks assurances that your client will always act in the best interests of their child". If your ex is anything like my friend's, this will be easily read by your solicitor as 'legal code' for "My client is a pita and will make some fuss, but really your client has nothing to worry about"!
Thanks for the responses, they really are helpful in calming me down about these letters.
It's a bloody shame it's like this because when things are fine we can discuss contact quite rationally, and we can happily ask each other to do swaps etc to tie in with what each other needs. When it's tits up like this though, the contact schedule will be adhered to rigourously on their side with no flexibility and on mine, they will continue to ask for swaps etc and send crappy emails when If I say no- it's all so shit. A favourite is ' oh, we have asked dd if she wants to do that really fun activity with us her family at the weekend. We know it's not our weekend but it would be great for her to join us and she will be upset if you refuse her'. The manipulation is rife
Anyway, thanks for the advice. it's good to know a solicitor will filter any veiled nastiness. I was always under the impression they would write whatever you paid them to- hence the fact that they are not very popular when it comes to family disputes!
Brill idea about writing to company house btw, love it!
I've been a single dad now for over ten years. To be honest it sounds very normal to me. If you got on, you'd still be together!
The good thing is, is that he has regular contact and he does pay maintenance religiously. Many parents/kids are not so lucky.
What I'm seeing here is emotions overruling logic and the result may well be you cut off your own nose to spite your face.
Do you think if you went to the CSA the stroppograms will stop? Of course not. The content will just vary a bit. Do you think it will stop you from falling out? No. So you'd be £200 a month down and no better off.
Going via solicitors, CSA & contacting companies house will just inflame the situation and make matters worse.
Do what I do. Ignore ignore ignore. My ex & I get on for the most part and like you we occasionally fall out big time. I'll get some text/email about how nasty I am and how I'm trying to push the kids out of her life etc. Just ignore them. Delete button is your friend. Take away the response and eventually they tire of sending the snottograms and not getting a reply. It's the reply they crave. To see you react. To see you hurt. Deny them that.
As for maintenance. What you could do, if you don't need the money is just set up a bank account and put the money in there each month. Give it to your daughter at 18. God knows you'll need it for driving lessons, uni fees/whatever.
The thing you need to realise is that this is not a battle over money or contact. It's a battle for control. React to his threats/texts & emails and you are dancing to his tune. Smile, ignore them and keep talking in a level voice about the facts, don't get drawn into tit for tat arguments and you take the high moral ground and it pisses them off no end that it's not working.
niceguy2 makes a lot of sense. The only thing I will say is please make sure you keep the emails he sends you. Whilst you may think they are carefully crafted I bet that he and his wife slip up somewhere along the line. My ex sends me plenty of vile emails, and has done for the last 11 years. I have kept every one and the last time we ended up in court they were VERY useful.
I am not going to go into specific details about my exh on here because I don't want to derail the thread, but if you want to PM me feel free.
fw - you must be right about the emails because my sol has said the most recent one is particularly ugly ( they even attack my dp) and that a court would be interested in seeing it. Obviously I know sols might say what you want to hear, but it brought me some comfort all the same. Heres hoping they have slipped up this time
Niceguy, thanks for the perspective, think i will def keep a copy of them though
I have just had another thought re. the CSA,which makes me suggest that you don't go to them if you were married to your ex. Once-married people have a legal right to seek maintenance for children through the family courts. Never-married separated parents do not have this legal route, and the CSA is their only recourse. Court action is always resolved, one way or the other, whereas CSA action often is not. (As I said, I have been waiting almost 15 years for maintenance). The CSA's priority is to save money for the state, not recover maintenance for the child, so they tend to pursue absent parents who work when the resident parent does not, in order to save state benefit payments - and don't seem to do much about the others. I think - though I may be wrong and you should ask your solicitor - that once you go down the CSA route you cannot also pursue maintenance through the courts... Which means you are less likely to get any
flow you are correct with saying that once you use the csa you are prohibited from using the courts for child maintainance and the csa effectivly overide the court order.
you may also need to concider that if his dp is involved with the company he could very easyly get away with saying she runs it and pays him peanuts. lifestyle inconsistant via the csa will apsolutly not help you with this as he could easyly claim she compleatly supports him and the house even if the house is solely his and she has no real claim on it i know this because thats what happened with me.
We weren't married, thank god!
His DW doesn't work for him. She has a completely separate profession. Ex runs it with a partner.
Hmm I've re written this post a good few times but I think you may be cutting you nose off to spite your face by refusing to take maintenance, its his responsibility and hes willing to pay (quite rightly) so it makes no sense to me really. But I do sympathise with how this makes you feel so how about looking at it this way - he says he pays over and above what he has to you say indeed you do and the extra money is enriching DDs life but nobody is making you, if it's an issue then fill out the on line CSA calculator and get the figure from that, it's very simple all bright and breezy just give the issue back to him to deal with.
Or send an email back saying the money keeps being mentioned and it shouldn't be a constant bone of contention but an agreed amount that's not going to cause issues.
pingu she might be listed as a director, though.
It is a known CSA loophole - the profit your ex's company makes will be split between all the directors directors - so she can take a proportion of the profit if she is a director which will go into their household but won't be assessed for CSA.
NADM- really? Jeez, who knew people would go that far?
I see what you mean about cutting off my nose etc, it just irks me so much because it so clearly is a pathetic amount in relation to what he earns and yet he can't stop himself reminding me that it's 'more than he has to'. There is not a prayer in heaven's chance that it is half of what it takes to give our child the life she has now, so I just wish he would shut the hell up about it
yes pingu it is true and is used loads by people to reduce liability.
fwiw the csa would only ask for 15% of his income after deductions are made to allow for him having another child living with him and his contact being over 52 days a year he could also apply for a variation to allow for travel.
other ways he could reduce liability are by claiming his partner pays him and less than he does or offsetting personal assests to claim them as company expenses some nrp's will do anything they can think of to reduce maintainance
pingu, don't make any rash decisions. Check Companies House online - you don't need to write to them - you pay £1 I think for any document on the company you're interested in which should include something that shows who the directors are. It's very little money and could be quite enlightening. Don't give the maintenance money up. Don't rise to his bait though like niceguy2 said. I'd curb him seeing your DD on days that aren't his - it should be something that works but it only seems to work in his favour so I'd tell him not to arrange things on those days - take an element of control back. The point is - you're dancing to his tune over everything so I'd limit that and keep everything else business like. I'd be very curious to know what's on the Companies House website about his company. Don't make waves for the sake of it though.
I used the CSA and have only FINALLY got my arrears from my ex.They were 5 and 8 when we split up, they are now 20 and 23.And that was only after about 5 complaints and 2 through my MP.
Tbh if you are getting maintenance, I would let sleeping dogs lie.
pingu, there is a CSA calculator if you want to work out how much you think you should be getting. Just google CSA calculator.
Thanks everyone. I think the consensus here is to leave well alone, so that is prob what I will do....however it can't hurt to be prepared so I'll also be doing a bit of research on the company.
Will also take all your advice about how to deal with the shitty correspondence and to stop actually believing all the lies they write
SusanneLinder, that's good to hear... My DS will turn 18 in six months without me ever having received a penny of maintenance, and I did wonder whether the arrears would continue to be due to me after he reached adulthood.
Could I please PM you re tactics sometime? (Not urgently - I certainly won't so it tonight, and of course there would be no hurry for you to respond )
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