To think that there should be prosecutions over Hillsborough

(217 Posts)
DreamingofSummer Wed 12-Sep-12 18:25:09
ChristineDaae Wed 12-Sep-12 18:28:06

YADNBU!!! angry shocking the level of deceit and blame placed on the fans. This is something that has hung over our city too long.

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Sep-12 18:29:02

no yanbu - it's appalling

kdiddy Wed 12-Sep-12 18:31:31

YANBU at all - I'm no legal expert so I hope if there are criminal cases to answer then they are brought. If nothing else, morally what some peoria have done is reprehensible and they need to be brought to account.

DreamingofSummer Wed 12-Sep-12 18:31:40
Bellyjaby Wed 12-Sep-12 18:31:51

Definitely YANBU

kdiddy Wed 12-Sep-12 18:32:07

Wtf is a peoria?! People...

SoleSource Wed 12-Sep-12 18:41:49

Sigh. Another cover up. Totally unsurprised.

Thete lives meant nothing to the Government.

Words. Just. Fail.

Yanbu, poor famlies.

YANBU - hideous.

I am hundreds of miles away from Liverpool but I'm furious that I was lied to about the whole sorry affair. I read the Sun report of lies and BELIEVED IT at the time.

People should be punished. There is no time limit on justice.

Prosecute the nasty, lying bastards.

ThatVikRinA22 Wed 12-Sep-12 18:47:37

i would not be surprised to see prosecutions given time. i am a serving police officer- it would never happen today. i feel so sorry for those who have had to fight for so long - my DH was there, he is a liverpool supporter.

i think the force today bears no resemblance to the force it was back then. The truth will always out. I hope those who were affected rest in peace and i hope the families can begin to find some peace. its so very sad.

lisaro Wed 12-Sep-12 18:50:10

I thoroughly agree. It's disgusting and it's a shameful embarrassment to the country.

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 18:50:28

Agree - I would love it to happen. Can't see how they can't reopen the inquest now.

MrsKeithRichards Wed 12-Sep-12 18:52:55

I'm fucking furious it has taken until now for Kelvin Mackenzie to apologise.

Cunt.

dotnet Wed 12-Sep-12 18:57:51

It shouldn't be impossible to find out who gave the say-so to the altering/deleting of hundreds of police statements. Yes, prosecution of that wicked criminal is essential.

getmeoutofthismadhouse Wed 12-Sep-12 19:00:50

If no prosecutions are likely then at the VERY least famillies of the 96 should be given a public apology direct from the responsible officers who were to blame . Now the truth is out its the least they could do and admit once and for all to even single person who lost a loved one that day that they were to blame !!
It's taken too long !

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 19:03:51

Kelvin MacKenzie was on the R4 Today programme three or four weeks ago when I was driving home from work. He STILL believed he would be vindicated even then. Vile cunt.

I can't believe they did CRB checks on the victims! To discredit them - the people who died!

There must be records on who ordered these? Bunch of arseholes. I can't stop raging about this. The sense of injustice angry

FurCoatSkimpyKnickers Wed 12-Sep-12 19:07:52

YANBU

I was listening to it on the evening news driving home tonight. They played snippets of the news the day it was happening. I was in tears, it felt so raw. I wasn't personally affected that day so I can't even begin to imagine the feeling of loss of all those who lost someone that day.

Almost 100 died, more injured, thousands of people connected to those victims affected. The whole thing has been dealt with in the most despicable manner and someone has to be held accountable.

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Sep-12 19:41:30

mackenzie can rot in hell vile little turd

tidyGOLDbaby Wed 12-Sep-12 19:44:27

YADNBU! It's taken far too long.

JFT96 YNWA

FreudiansGoldSlipper Wed 12-Sep-12 19:48:20

YANBU

more so for the cover up that went from senior police to senior politicians so many people involved in carry on a terrible lies

kelvin mackenzie is a vile vile man the ultimate tory 80's man no empathy no compassion

travellingwilbury Wed 12-Sep-12 19:48:52

I agree ! I would live to see some prosecutions brought against the people responsible for this .

And as for Kelvin , he can sod right off , he shouldn't be given air time .

Will be interesting to see the sun front page tomorrow , not that I would ever buy it .

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Sep-12 19:51:57

I wouldn't wipe my arse on The Scum

EricNorthmansFangBanger Wed 12-Sep-12 19:53:19

YADNBU. Mackenzie is a cunt of the highest order and I hope he rots in hell angry

JFT96

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Wed 12-Sep-12 19:55:02

I'm sitting here in tears reading that. I lived in Liverpool years ago and I have never had the experience of living anywhere with such a feeling of community. That The Sun could print such repulsive things about people who were dead, mourning, grieving, in shock and misery is horrifying.

YANBU.

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 19:58:03

gordyslovesheep I would shit in the sun though and post it through McKenzie/ Mohans letter boxes

vigglewiggle Wed 12-Sep-12 20:00:06

I am ashamed to be associated with the senior police officers that made such tragically poor decisions on that day. I am even more ashamed that they tried to cover their tracks in such a callous way. I would like to see those officers brought to book for the cover-up more than the (presumably well-intentioned) mistakes on the day. They should face trial for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and I hope it happens.

tara0202 Wed 12-Sep-12 20:01:33

Yadnbu. Absolute disgrace. And Kelvin mackenzie... Eeeergh. What a vile bullshit spewing dick that man actually is.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 20:02:23

The truth will out, thank god. Good luck to Michael Mansfield QC in taking this all the way with the families.

The scale of the cover-up within the emergency services and by public servants and elected politicians in local and central government is incredible. The role of The Sun yet again massive and insidious. The reaction of the government of the day sickeningly inadequate, to the point of complicity.

JFT96.

Finally.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Wed 12-Sep-12 20:03:36

YADNBU. At the very, very least the inquest verdict should be quashed.

The scales of the systemic cover-up is just sickening. Those who concocted the lies about the victims' behaviour are scum.

JFT96. YNWA.

ovenchips Wed 12-Sep-12 20:05:00

MrsKeithRichards Calling Kelvin McKenzie a cunt is like calling the Pope a Catholic. And I totally agree.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 20:06:57

I would like to see those officers brought to book for the cover-up more than the (presumably well-intentioned) mistakes on the day. They should face trial for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and I hope it happens.

Hear! Hear!

somewheresomehow Wed 12-Sep-12 20:12:53

yabu

AuntAlexandra Wed 12-Sep-12 20:16:23

YANBU and thankyou for starting this thread,

Today we got the truth.

JFT96 YNWA

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Wed 12-Sep-12 20:18:18

Care to explain, somewheresomehow?

edam Wed 12-Sep-12 20:20:42

23 years to get the truth... I hope the families feel vindicated today. And I hope the search for justice doesn't stop here. I'd like the coroner who helped to cover up the deaths - deaths he had a legal and moral duty to investigate - to be held to account, as well as every other fucker who lied through their teeth, denigrating the dead to save their own hides.

EricNorthmansFangBanger Wed 12-Sep-12 20:20:53

They didn't just do criminal background checks, they did alcohol blood level tests on all the dead - even the children. Makes my blood boil!

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 20:20:59

God, they're reading out all the victims at the vigil now. Most of them are barely more than children. sad

edam Wed 12-Sep-12 20:21:59

some of them were children...

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 20:23:19

sad

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Wed 12-Sep-12 20:25:08

My heart goes out to them all. I keep thinking about the man who lost two daughters. It is unimaginable.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Wed 12-Sep-12 20:27:58

Sammy 22 of the victims were under 18.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 20:30:47

The youngest was 10.

somewheresomehow Wed 12-Sep-12 20:37:02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster

Bluegingham Wed 12-Sep-12 20:37:22

So sad and so wrong. Good thread.
JFT96.

Jamillalliamilli Wed 12-Sep-12 20:43:16

Even no, Especially after 23 years.

I can’t read what’s come out. it’s all too raw. I don’t need to read about it, I know the truth, so many know the truth, enough of the truth at least. What did and didn’t happen.

The people who need to be prosecuted the most are those who set up to cover up by smearing the victims and those who tried to help them, because they have not only committed the most despicable crime against those who died, their families and friends and all those who were there, but they have also ensured so many people will never ever trust the establishment again.

Some of those who survived have had to live with the fact that others, who were smaller and weaker, were physically crushed to death against them while they couldn’t even unpin their own arms to try to prevent it. To then become criminals and hooligans in so many people’s heads has been the further destruction of minds.

Expose the lies before Thatcher dies. JFT96

VoldemortsNipple Wed 12-Sep-12 20:43:44

ilovedaintynuts I applaud you with your honest statement. I hope and pray that the rest of the country who choose to believe the lies, accept like you, that they were wrong to believe what was written in that newspaper.

That the families, survivers, and people of of Merseyside fought for the truth to be heard and justice to be done, not because we wallow in self pity but because it was right.

To give an insight into how this tragedy affected Liverpool, think of how 9/11 has affected New York. It will never go away, it has altered the foundations of a city.

At last the truth has been told, as horrible and despicable as that truth is.

Please God, now let there be justice.

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Sep-12 20:46:01

why bring Heysel into it - how utterly vile and petty

are you suggesting the 96 people who died where responsible for that?

YADDDDDNBU!!!
It actually makes me feel physically sick. And even with the truth finally out, all anyone gets is an "apology" from call me dave. Its disgusting. I'm trying, but I actually can't put into words just how ill it makes me feel.

JFT96 YNWA xx

VoldemortsNipple Wed 12-Sep-12 20:56:54

somewhere the difference with Heysel is LFC never tried to cover up the tradedy, the victims were never blamed. Shame on you!

SpudtheScarecrow Wed 12-Sep-12 21:01:48

What on earth has Heysel got to do with this? The whole point is that this was nothing to do with hooliganism. I'm a Man Utd fan so in a normal day to day footballing sense I'd have no time for Liverpool fans at all but this isn't about that. It's about ordinary men and women, boys and girls that went to watch football match and didn't come home. It could have happened to any club, to any fans. The ground was unsafe and the authorities made fatal mistakes. I hope there is justice now and I salute the bravery and dignity of all those involved.

SpudtheScarecrow Wed 12-Sep-12 21:04:37

I also think that the government of the time that sought to demonise the working class in other situations would have been quick to believe the worst of football fans.

YADNBU

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Wed 12-Sep-12 21:07:54

YANBU at all. All those responsible should be prosecuted.

JFT96

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 12-Sep-12 21:14:17

At what point do you start making people responsible for Hillsborough?

OrangeFireandGoldashes Wed 12-Sep-12 21:15:39

Somewhere you are bang out of order bringing Heysel into this. The whole point is the web of lies spun about the fans' behaviour contributing to the Hillsborough disaster has been exposed to be just that, a web of lies. Spun at every level by those who we, and they, should be able to trust.

Forget what the Scum claimed in its despicable article. The only people who pissed on those dying fans were senior police chiefs, politicians, the coroner at the original inquest, Sheffield City Council officials and Kelvin "Cunt of the Century" McKenzie.

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 21:16:08

somewhere the difference with Heysel is LFC never tried to cover up the tradedy, the victims were never blamed. Shame on you!

And those responsible were prosecuted.

Natnat29 Wed 12-Sep-12 21:28:57

YANBU, I couldn't agree more. How disgusting it took the Mackenzie until now to apologise, complete scum.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 21:40:48

Reading this makes me bless anew the day I left Liverpool, never to return...
It's hard to see how LFC could have covered up Heysel. The fact remains that the reason peopl found it so easy to believe the worst of Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough was because the behaviour of some of them was so utterly appalling so very, very frequently.
I shouldn't need to point out that this doesn't mean I'm casting aspersions on the character of any of the individuals who perished that day, but given the general tenor of this thread, it's probably necessary, alas.

Bintang Wed 12-Sep-12 21:40:50

One of my classmates and one of my teachers were at Hillsborough. They survived thank goodness (though with injuries); neither were the same again afterwards (boy was only 14).

I was in tears listening to the first 20 minutes of PM this evening- as a child I did not comprehend the enormity of what happened at the time.

My heart goes out to all the families affected by this, they have my every sympathy. If anything can possibly go some way towards restitution, it should happen. There is sadly no way to repair all those lives.

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Sep-12 21:45:52

actually Karlos the demonisation of football fans, the working class and northern people served a POLITICAL purpose - much of it was based on fabrication - no love lost between Liverpool fans and me - I am an Evertonian - Heysel kept us out of Europe

Hillsborough was a totally different situation though - and to even link it to Heysel is to play the same blame game Thatcher and Scum tried to back then - shameful

Extrospektiv Wed 12-Sep-12 21:48:42

YANBU JFT96 fuck the s*n and anyone bringing Heysel into it. Way to twist the knife into the people who the PM correctly said were victims of a double injustice.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 21:50:36

No, it wasn't fabrication. My father was a Merseyside police officer from the 60s until the late 90s. Like many respectable working class men, he was wholly alienated from football by what it and many of its supporters became during the 70s and 80s. He won't even watch the game now on TV - and this, a man who as a child and adolescent never missed a home game. he spent his Saturdays for the best part of 2 decades being spat on, beaten up and yes, I'm afraiod, pissed on, by Liverpool supporters.
I'm told it's better now. I'm not likely to find out; wild horses wouldn;t drag me near a football match I'm afraid.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 21:51:15

Poor show, Karlos. Alas indeed.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 21:51:19

Oh, and evertonians. Wear that badge with pride, eh?

SammySquirrel Wed 12-Sep-12 21:53:27

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SpudtheScarecrow Wed 12-Sep-12 21:54:08

I agree with gordy. I think, if anything, the fact that the authorities knew that people would easily believe the worst of football fans makes what they did even worse. Yes, there had been problems with hooligans and all clubs but it was NOT a factor at Hillsborough and yet the police etc manipulated that stereotype in order to cover up their errors. The people who died were ordinary people, like you or me, out to support their team and enjoy a game of football. That they were killed is bad enough but then to have them blamed is unspeakable. And the fact that some people are still harking back to suggestions of hooliganism despite all the evidence revealed today is unbelievable.

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 21:55:46

There need to be prosecutions.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 21:59:05

I'm afraid I won;t do that, Squirrel. I'm allowed to express my opinion and state the facts as I know them to be. I am not seeking to excuse the telling of lies and the fabrication of evidence, if that is what happened. And it was obvious, with hindsight, that the methods of crowd control and accommodation of football goers at the time was a disaster waiting to happen. But the hysteria dn distortion of the reality of what football was in the 1980s is more than I can stomach, and demonstrates the mentality which is a big part of the reason why I left Liverpool, and why I dislike so much going back.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 12-Sep-12 22:01:31

SpudtheScarecrow
"Yes, there had been problems with hooligans and all clubs but it was NOT a factor at Hillsborough"
The fences/pens where there because of what hooligans did at other matches. If the fences had not been there (however inept the senoir police handling was) the disaster would not have happened. It has to be factored in to the overall picture.

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Sep-12 22:02:46

I do - I am also proud of my home town - I am glad I am from a place of such passion and warmth

and it's based on your fathers experience not yours smile

There was a problem with some supporters in the 70's and 80's - much worse in clubs down south but that has no impact on Hillsborough despite the lies told by the Tory press

princelypurpleparrot Wed 12-Sep-12 22:03:37

Karlos and Somewhere, what is it about today's events are you not able to understand?

Yes there was terrible hooliganism around that time, noone would deny that. But this disaster was in no way whatsoever caused by the behaviour of the fans. that is the whole point!!!!. The police etc used the people's views of football fans to twist this terrible terrible event and ensure that they were not see as responsible.

How, after all that we have heard / read today, can you still say "yes but..."

How?

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Sep-12 22:05:38

Fencing was a lazy and dangerous solution and should never have happened - again the warped perception of those in power towards working class people made it okay to cage people in like animals - they thought ALL football fans where animals anyway

the CHILDREN who died at Hillsborough where not

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:06:12

I was born in Liverpool and lived there until my early 20s. So I can assure that my opinion of the city, and the mentality which does so much to hold it back and make it something of a joke to the rest of the country, is based on my personal experience.
Passion and warmth untempered by reason and restraint are not desirable qualities. As this thread amply demonstrates.

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 22:06:21

'Hysteria'

The police caused deaths by mismanagement of the crowd which lead to people being crushed.

Then they failed to adequately help the injured.

Then they then tried to claim the crush was the fault of fans.

How is any of that hysteria?

princelypurpleparrot Wed 12-Sep-12 22:08:38

Boney that makes no sense, I'm afraid. The ground had a capacity, the capacity was in part determined by the presence of the fences, sure. You are essentially blaming hooligans who where not there.

Grounds still have maximum capacities and high fences between the fans and the pitch to stop pitch invasions. If the police did the same again would it still be the fault of past hooligans?

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 22:09:01

And if you want to talk 'facts', please lets talk about the police in the 1970s and 1980s. Obviously not on this thread because that would be deliberate derailmemnt and I'm sure you don't want that. Lets talk about what they did. How they treated people. One miscarriage of justice after another. Lets ralk about how PACE was brought in to try to control their behaviour.

SpudtheScarecrow Wed 12-Sep-12 22:09:46

True, Boney, but that doesn't mean the fans there on the day were hooligans or trouble -makers . And if the police hadn't let too many people into the stand then it wouldn't have happened, pens or not.

Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 22:10:59

Widespread corruption? The beating of suspects?

Greythorne Wed 12-Sep-12 22:14:11

Certainly not been a good couple of years for the Murdoch press.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:14:18

Undoubtedly there was (and is) police misconduct. Most police officers, like most football supporters, are law-abiding, however. I'm not sure what your point actually is, Narked; if you're suggesting that football hooliganism was justified because of police misconduct I think you'll struggle to make it fly, but have a go by all means

Bluegingham Wed 12-Sep-12 22:14:21

Hooligans didn't shit themselves and lie. And alter statements, and tamper with evidence. And treat the families appallingly. And take blood alcohol samples from children. And make relatives identify their loved ones in a gymnasium, where officers were eating chicken. The police did that.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 12-Sep-12 22:16:00

princelypurpleparrot

If the fences had not been there the fans could have gone directly on to the pitch.

If the fences/pens had not been there the incoming crowd would have been able to fan out into the stadium as a whole instead of being herded into one area.

Yes I am partially blaming the hooligan element of the time.
I am also blaming the FA for choosing Hillsborough as the venue.
I am blaming hooligans for causing such an atmosphere that a train full of supporters was searched three times making it late.
I blame the council for the roadworks making fans late causing a greater rush of fans.
I blame the organisers for not putting the start time back to allow safe entry of the fans.
and I blame senior police for not being better organised and covering their own incompetent arses.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 12-Sep-12 22:17:11

SpudtheScarecrow

"True, Boney, but that doesn't mean the fans there on the day were hooligans or trouble -makers"

I didn't say that it did.

Bluegingham Wed 12-Sep-12 22:18:57

"The effect of the identification process and immediate investigation had a profound effect on people. There was no attempt at grouping the photographs so for example if someone was looking for a female they were still subject to looking through all the photographs. In one case a young man who had come across his wife dead on the pitch and had accompanied her body to the gymnasium still had to go through the ridiculous procedure of being transported to the boys club, waiting and then going back to the gymnasium were he was forced to look through all the photographs were he would find what he already knew to be there - a photograph of his dead wife."

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:22:18

The fact is this has become one of the topics in respect of which there is a "right" way to think and any dissent will be treated with disproportionate hostility, because reason has been thrown out of the window and if you don't join with the herd, you are automatically morally suspect.
I've never indulged in this sort of thinking, if you can call it that, and I don't plan to start now. I'm as keen as anyone to see conspiracies to pervert the course of justice punished, if that's what they were; though in my experience these things are rarely as clear cut as that, unless actual destruction of evidence is the issue. I don;t see the necessity for some of the hysteria on display here, though.

edam Wed 12-Sep-12 22:23:00

Karlos, today really is not the day for spitting on the graves of those who died at Hillsborough. There's been enough of that over the years from those in authority attempting to cover up their own culpability.

Good grief, have the innocent not suffered enough, that even today you have to attempt to demonise them all over again?

OrangeFireandGoldashes Wed 12-Sep-12 22:23:03

Many of the failings of procedures on the day could have been forgiven, if accountability and justice had been swift and transparent and if seemingly ever other fucker in authority hadn't fallen over themselves to whitewash their respective organisation's involvement while painting a totally untrue picture of the victims as drunken louts who colluded in their own deaths.

One of the victims was 10 years old, for fuck's sake. A "drunken ticketless hooligan" at ten years old?

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 12-Sep-12 22:26:32

OrangeFireandGoldashes
"Many of the failings of procedures on the day could have been forgiven, if accountability and justice had been swift and transparent and if seemingly ever other fucker in authority hadn't fallen over themselves to whitewash their respective organisation's involvement while painting a totally untrue picture of the victims as drunken louts who colluded in their own deaths."

I completely agree.

KenDoddsDadsDog Wed 12-Sep-12 22:26:40

Karlos are you really ashamed of where you were born and brought up?

OrangeFireandGoldashes Wed 12-Sep-12 22:26:56

*actual destruction of the evidence"

You mean like the footage from two CCTV cameras which would have proved those in the control room could see the extent of the over-crowding and crushing mysteriously having gone missing?

Karlos I'm sure you're very proud of your free-thinking challenging of assumptions. But this is not the thread and now is not the time. Give the INNOCENT victims some respect.

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 22:27:02

Remind me never to engage you as a lawyer, Karlos.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:31:04

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edam Wed 12-Sep-12 22:31:52

Not so much free-thinking challenging of assumptions as a deliberately cruel attempt to continue to smear the dead.

Even though tens of thousands of pieces of evidence have been painstakingly collected and analysed to show, finally and demonstrably, that the victims were innocent, that the disaster was caused by police incompetence, and that the legal system, the government and some elements of the media at the time colluded in a depraved cover up.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:34:39

"Karlos are you really ashamed of where you were born and brought up? "

I believe it was the Duke of Wellington who said that just because a man is born in a stable, it doesn't make him a horse. In short, no; it would be absurd to be ashamed of something I couldn;t help. But when I go back there, I do feel myself sinking into to something pretty deadening and hopeless. The Merseyside mentality can be pretty unhealthy, sometimes. the attitude to the Hillsborough issue is one example.

justbogoffnow Wed 12-Sep-12 22:35:29

I'm wading through the full report made available online by the Independent Panel. I suggest one or two posters on here do the same.

This is about how and why 96 men, women and children died, most within a short space of time on one day.

edam Wed 12-Sep-12 22:35:31

'The majority view'? Karlos, you appear to be showing off about how big and clever you are. Well done, wow, posing on the dead bodies of 96 innocent people is so impressive.

The whole point is that the official view was a cruel lie. That innocent people were killed by those in authority and then betrayed even after they were dead.

Bluegingham Wed 12-Sep-12 22:38:42

Karlos, you're entitled to an opinion. And up till this pint I was trying to be as balanced as possible. Yes there was a problem with hooliganism (or a perception of it), yes that may have affected how the situation was handled on the day by the police. But it doesn't justify anything at all after that.
And then you said :
"The Merseyside mentality can be pretty unhealthy, sometimes. the attitude to the Hillsborough issue is one example."
What the actual fuck are you talking about??? A Merseyside mentality?

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:39:30

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OrangeFireandGoldashes Wed 12-Sep-12 22:39:33

By the way Karlos, I'm not from Liverpool. I think I've been there once. My "attitude to the Hillsborough issue" is based on empathy, basic human decency and outrage at one of the worst state-sanctioned cover-ups in the history of this country.

HTH.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:43:49

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KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:44:53

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Berris Wed 12-Sep-12 22:45:33

Hooliganism was prevalent amongst many supporters in the 80's, not just Liverpool supporters, of course. But it's ok, let's just blame Liverpool for all of it.

I'm proud to count myself as an "adopted" scouser. I love this city. I love the people. I've watched it develop and grow over the years I've been here.

Today, it was proven that what we knew in Liverpool about Hillsborough was true. What I'm beginning to realise is that what we know to be true still doesn't matter to some people. The actions of a minority before Hillsborough are still going to make some people believe that Liverpool fans caused this, by association with their reputation. From what I remember in the 80's though is that Milwall fans, Leeds fans, other clubs fans were horrendous too (I'm picking those two as examples because they stick out in my mind - they weren't the only ones though!). The tone of some posts suggests that Liverpool were the worst. They weren't. Really weren't.

What matters now is that Hillsborough should be separated from reputations. The intention of those in authority was to shift blame. To exploit reputations, to smear the victims and their families - families who have conducted themselves with so much dignity.

creighton Wed 12-Sep-12 22:48:28

my view on hillsborough after today's exposure of the police is shock at the level of dishonesty practised by the police and other authorities in allowing these deaths to be covered up. the police started the cover up before the fans bodies were cold, on the actual day of the tragedy. that police force should have been disbanded but instead they all got away with their terrible behaviour and no doubt, retired on full pensions. what an absolute disgrace.

edam Wed 12-Sep-12 22:52:28

IF there has been wrongdoing, ffs? Karlos, you seem to have a hard time understanding the situation. The report of the independent panel shows the dead were the victims of incompetent policing and a cover-up by the police, other emergency services and the legal system. There HAS been wrongdoing, that's the whole point.

You also seem to assume that anyone who does grasp the situation is an overly-emotional Liverpudlian - because in your world Liverpudlians are all reduced to some cartoon stereotype drawn up by Boris Johnson. I'm not from Liverpool and can't stand football, FWIW.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:53:02

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Caoimhe Wed 12-Sep-12 22:53:33

Absolutely, creighton, the scale of the cover up is mind blowing. Those poor families struggling on for justice for so many years - it is so sad.

Berris Wed 12-Sep-12 22:55:53

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edam Wed 12-Sep-12 22:56:55

Karlos, that's the whole point of the panel, they have considered the mass of evidence dispassionately. Maybe you should take a look at them hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/the-independent-panel/ and the evidence hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 22:57:27

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StaceeJaxx Wed 12-Sep-12 22:58:37

Karlos, are you a Tory by any chance? hmm

LineRunner Wed 12-Sep-12 22:59:28

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SoleSource Wed 12-Sep-12 23:00:24

Fans used to pee on the police at Aston Villa too.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 23:00:36

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Berris Wed 12-Sep-12 23:04:08

I'm from a very middle class area, many miles from Barnsley, not that it's got anything to do with anything.

What has been presented today is evidence, carefully considered in a measured and dispassionate fashion. What needs to happen now, as a minimum, is a fresh inquest.

Caoimhe Wed 12-Sep-12 23:04:25

Deary me, I do hope Karlos has been on the vino as otherwise her responses indicate a lack of understanding of the correct time and place for the expression of contentious opinions.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 23:06:48

And exactly why do you get to decide when and where contentious opinions may be expressed, eh? Who died and made you God?

justbogoffnow Wed 12-Sep-12 23:07:13

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gatheringlilac Wed 12-Sep-12 23:08:11

yanbu.

And am so impressed by the tenacity of the campaigners.

Caoimhe Wed 12-Sep-12 23:10:01

It is the sort of thing most people know instinctively, Karlos, they don't need to be told. Sorry you find it so hard.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Sep-12 23:11:17

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Narked Wed 12-Sep-12 23:18:40

If it's necessary to give background on fan behaviour/attitude surely it's necessary to give background on police behaviour/attitude?

Even the Thatcher government, who were more closely aligned with the police than any UK government before or since, though it necessary to bring in PACE because the police en masse could not be trusted not to beat confessions out of people and fabricate evidence.

DisabilEightiesChick Wed 12-Sep-12 23:19:59

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DisabilEightiesChick Wed 12-Sep-12 23:22:56

There certainly needs to be a much deeper investigation now into who gave the authority to alter the statements of police officers, and who authorised the feeding of false information to Whites News Agency. I actually feel sorry for the many decent serving police officers who, again, must be demoralised by another revelation of corruption. Though most of all I feel sorry for the families of the victims. So many were very young.

VoldemortsNipple Wed 12-Sep-12 23:32:36

Is it not common knowledge by the police nowadays that football hooligans and football fans are completely different. Football hooligans are small pockets of people who go to a match only to cause fights. Nobody died at Hilsborough due to the violent acts of others. Therefore its a moot point. However I will agree it did give the lies told over the past 23 years a hill to roll down and gather speed.

Let's get something very clear, if it wasn't for football fans that day, there would have been countless more fatalities.

The merseyside mentality that karlos talks about brought about the truth today. If we had all gone home and believed the shite that was spouted or even just accepted it as something we couldn't change would have been wrong.

sashh Thu 13-Sep-12 04:22:57

I hate to say this, and please read to the end before you judge me.

Karlos has a point. Liverpool, both the city and the team had a reputation at the time of Hillsborough. Scouser jokes were doing the rounds, and all focused on scousers being poorly educated, theiving benefit cheats.

Football also had a bad reputation.

These things made it easy for the lies to fester. It made it easy for the police to discredit liverpool fans and for the rest of the country to say, "Look they've done it again".

I'm not normally one for conspirasy theories but at the time I did think, "I wonder if the coops thought it would be a laugh to have the Liverpool fans packed tight". I have no evidence for this, it's just a reflection of the way football fans (yes I know only a minority were hooligans) were viewed, somewhere worse than animals.

Remember this, at the time the government wanted football fans to carry ID cards, the law was drafted, ready to become law and was abandoned because the Taylor report said if it had been in force Hillsborough would have been worse.

The police covered up and covered up and discredited the dead, the survivors and the families of both. They had legal advice paid for by the taxpayer from day one. But they could only do this because of the political situation at the time and the reputation football had at the time.

Extrospektiv Thu 13-Sep-12 06:34:31

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Liketochat1 Thu 13-Sep-12 06:46:36

I think there should be prosecutions, in particular as it sounds as though documents were doctored.

Megatron Thu 13-Sep-12 07:14:30

Karlos I'm afraid your 'free thinking' opinions just sound like a personal attack on a city that you hate. I don't like Dundee very much but I would be devastated if so many people died there needlessly and it was proved that there was a massive cover up.

Football hooliganism was rife at that time in many places, not just Liverpool. My own father was a serving police officer from the late 60s until the 90s and spent many fairly horrendous hours policing Old Firm games in Glasgow. He never let these morons who treated him like shit change his opinion on a game or the City that he loved. More importantly, nor would he ever have been party to a cover up.

These people died in terrifying and tragic circumstances and my dad would have been the first to say that those who chose to cover this up should be prosecuted. They committed a crime and should be brought to book.

Itsgottabebags Thu 13-Sep-12 07:52:49

YNBU I hope that the families get the justice they deserve.

hackmum Thu 13-Sep-12 07:58:38

YADNBU. The way the police behaved, both on the day itself, and in the subsequent cover-up, was absolutely disgusting.

As for Kelvin McKenzie, it sickens him every time I hear or see him interviewed as a pundit on a news programme. People like him shouldn't even be admitted to civilised society. What a vile man.

Lovecat Thu 13-Sep-12 08:16:50

YADNBU and I hope the bastards responsible for the cover up and the refusal to let more than 2 ambulances onto the pitch when people were still alive not only get prosecuted to the fullest extent but also rot in hell.

But then I'm an over-emotional ex-Merseysider, apparently hmm

FWIW my best friend & I went to every home match of the 1982-86 seasons (aged 16-20) and the most trouble we ever had was from scally lads trying to chat us up at the bus stop on the way home. It was Chelsea, Millwall and West Ham that had the worst reputations for violence.

SammySquirrel Thu 13-Sep-12 08:20:59

Lovecat, I don't think they let any ambulances onto the pitch. As I understand it, those ambulance drivers ignored their instructions and went on anyway.

sashh Thu 13-Sep-12 08:25:53

Extrospektiv
You are of course right, the other stuff is just BS.

I'm in the process of reading the report, I had no idea there had a been a crush, similar a couple of years before. No one died, but people broke bones.

I'm also staggered by how slow the police were to react to the crush but how quick they were to get their (fictional) story out.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Thu 13-Sep-12 08:31:18

I'd laugh at someone claiming to be a free and independent thinker who says things like "if there's evidence" if it weren't such a bloody serious matter.

There is evidence. That is the point of the independent (actually independent, not "independent" used as an asinine synonym for "deliberately contrary") report.

Shakirasma Thu 13-Sep-12 09:10:09

My DH, now 47, has been a Liverpool supporter all his life and followed them home and away from his teens into his 30's. He, like the vast majority of fans has never ever been involved in hooliganism.

He was at Hillsborough that day, he was caught in the crush in the tunnel where most of the victims lost their lives. They were herded in there like cattle by the police, and even when it became clear it was a hellish situation the police kept herding, like lambs to the slaughter. He can clearly remember thinking "I need to stay on my feet, if I get knocked over I'm dead". And that's all any of them could do, just try and sty of their feet against the surge coming behind them.

That disaster on that day had nothing to do with hooligans, it was all about poor decisions by the police. And the fact they tried to cover up their mistakes is sickening.

OP, YANBU.

Shakirasma Thu 13-Sep-12 09:26:18

And for the record, DH is not a Liverpudlian, never lived anywhere near Liverpool so his opinion of it being the police at total fault is not based on any kind of community spirit. It's based on his personal experience of that terrible day, and on being crowd handled at hundreds of other matches before and after.

babybythesea Thu 13-Sep-12 09:42:30

There's another thread on this, on the In The News board, which I've posted a lot on so I won't repeat it all.

I did want to say though that in all their pointing fingers at the medical services, I hope that someone remembers to excuse the ambulance driver in the second (and last) ambulance to leave the pitch. I have heard him interviewed a few times and he is clearly traumatised by the whole thing. He went on to the pitch and collected Victoria Hicks, the younger of two sisters, leaving behind her older sister Sarah, in the belief that another ambulance would come for her, which of course it never did. He has told of feeling guilty for not doing more, for maybe not staying on the pitch with the specialist equipment instead of taking it away and off to hospital, for maybe not trying to cram more people in - listening to it, it is clear that he is someone else who has never and will never get over it, and he believes that, with hindsight, he failed people who subsequqently died. But he was not in a position to know, he was not to know that no other ambulances he would come - he did his job in good faith, and tried to save someone's life. It is not his fault that she died anyway, and it is not his fault that others died. I keep hearing this thing about the way the emergency services acted, and I keep thinking "I hope he doesn't think they mean him."

It's also worth noting that my grandad went to Hillsborough a couple of years earlier and came back then saying "Someone's going to be killed there". They had a similar incident but on that occasion, police reacted as though fans were people first and foremost, rather than hooligans, and got them out of the gates by the pitch. They (the fans) then sat round the edge of the pitch for the duration of the game. Slightly different police attitude (and still in the midst of ideas about football hooliganism, it's worth noting) and no lives were lost. Why on earth were these signs not attended to?

AndFanjoWasHisNameO Thu 13-Sep-12 09:56:15

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Lovecat Thu 13-Sep-12 09:59:39

I didn't realise that, Sammy sad

I do hope that poor ambulance driver doesn't torture himself any more over this (although sadly I doubt that will happen) and that the medical services are exonerated. This falls squarely with the police authorities, from everything I've read.

Lovecat Thu 13-Sep-12 10:01:07

And what AndFanjo said grin

gordyslovesheep Thu 13-Sep-12 10:24:14

Well said andfanjo Karlos just sounds like some one with issues trying to bury then under a layer of denial

AuntAlexandra Thu 13-Sep-12 10:39:21

Andfanjo well put - thankyou

ovenchips Thu 13-Sep-12 11:14:32

Karlos

Can I ask a question? Have you read the independent report that was linked to at the top of the page? There is a summary report which is still fairly thorough (14 pages on my phone but it's just a little phone so not too onerous).

Could I suggest that you read the summary report then come back on to post what your thoughts are then? I'm making an assumption you haven't read it. I do think at the moment you are maintaining your stance of independent thought by offering comment coloured by personal feelings rather than factual objections. But surely independent thought based on mere opinion and contrary to known facts is closer to hot air than anything else?

I really would be interested in what you would say after reading the report.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Thu 13-Sep-12 12:26:03

Well said babybythesea (and AndFanjo on a different tack).

Tony Edwards, the ambulance driver in question, shouldn't just be excused from the criticism of the emergency services, he should be given a fucking medal. Seriously. The man is a hero.

VoldemortsNipple Thu 13-Sep-12 13:49:19

There was more than one individual in the forces who worked hard to save lives. Kevin Williams' mum speaks of the WPC who held her son as he died. She spoke out years ago to let her know he was still alive at 4pm. Another PC was on tv Monday night telling how he fought to save somebody's life.

While these people were on the pitch trying to save lives David Ducenfield sat in his ivory tower spinning his web of lies.

lisaro Thu 13-Sep-12 15:35:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19582072

Well at least someone in a position to make a noise agrees.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 13-Sep-12 16:36:36

Front page of the Scottish Sun today, not one mention.

VoldemortsNipple Thu 13-Sep-12 18:30:12

grin mrskeithrichards that is scandalous.

But then again Hilsborough was never seen as a national tragedy sad

VoldemortsNipple Thu 13-Sep-12 18:32:59

That was meant to be a shocked face. I forgot : o on my phone is (grin)

(shocked) mrskeithrichards that is scandalous!

MrsKeithRichards Thu 13-Sep-12 18:45:39

All the other Scottish editions had it on the front page. Disgusting paper.

maristella Thu 13-Sep-12 19:22:32

OP YANBU, it's time for justice. It was time for justice 23 years ago, there are no more excuses to be made

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 13-Sep-12 19:28:04

First in the list, can Kelvin 'bastard' Mackenzie stop being brought onto our tv screens as some sort of 'I say it how it is' media pundit?
Is there anyone, anywhere wanting to listen to his vile ranting anymore, especially after yesterday's vertict.

LineRunner Thu 13-Sep-12 19:32:01

If, every time you see Kelvin Mackenzie on a TV programme, you feel somehow revolted, you might wish to complain to Ofcom using this form.

guineapiglet Thu 13-Sep-12 19:41:34

I was at Hillsborough that day, it changed my life. I and many others suffered terrible PTSD - it wasnt just a tragedy for Liverpool, it was a tragedy for Sheffield, where so many kind and decent people came to help, make cups of tea, and offer support - my family were some of them. I worked in the hospital where the injured and dying were brought and I spoke to some of the relatives. It was a terrible terrible time and every time I see it on the news again it breaks my heart all over again and I relive every hateful moment. I hate the apportioning of blame, and some of you may not want to read this, but some of the fans should take responsibility for their actions - I could write pages about this - but where I was standing, many fans arrived at 3pm straight out of the pub, pushing violently and not caring about others in their way. Yes, it was a combination of many things, but where I worked, I saw caring and devestated ambulance workers, nurses, and yes, police - they are people too and not all of them should be tarred with the brush you use for some.

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 13-Sep-12 19:47:15

'guineapig', the evidence says that the police were the one's responsible for opening the gates so the overcrowding and crush took place.
Yes, maybe some fans had had a drink, but if they hadn't been shoved into pens that eventually killed 96 people the whole scenario wouldn't have happened.
Can't you see that?

alliea99 Thu 13-Sep-12 20:19:11

YANBU - there are 41 people who could have survived, nearly 50% of the victims of Hillsborough didn't need to perish. The cover up is shocking.

Shenanagins Thu 13-Sep-12 20:23:18

Op yanbu. i am not a big football fan and nor am i from anywhere near Liverpool but that doesn't stop me having huge amounts of sympathy for the victims families something that seems to be lacking from some posters.

what i found shocking about yesterdays report was the level of cover up by the police especially as by this time the force was meant to have cleaned up its act with widespread corruption wiped out. clearly that was not the case and i doubt it is the case now - think of the met and the news of the world debacle.

I for one am glad that the victims families showed merseyside mentality, as one delightful poster put earlier and showed the widespread corruption by police at this time. i do hope that they do finally get justice and those responsible are taken to account so that it shows that this is never acceptable and help others in the police force speak out.

utterly shocked and angered by the repeated lies.

edam Thu 13-Sep-12 20:24:05

I gather the report points out there had been crush injuries at Hillsborough before - fortunately no-one had died on that occasion, it was 'only' broken bones. The council knew it wasn't safe, the club knew it wasn't safe, the FA knew it wasn't safe, the police knew it wasn't safe...

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Sep-12 20:24:56

many fans arrived at 3pm straight out of the pub, pushing violently and not caring about others in their way I have been in a couple of nasty situations where people go hurt in crushes. Thankfully, nothing approaching the terror and horror of Hillsborough.

There was a particularly nasty gig where one girl was airlifted away and a lot of people were hurt or scared. In those cases, most of the crowd were completely bladdered and shoving each other. In my case though, the people on site treated everyone well, asked the crowd to back off in good time, collapsed barriers, lifted people out of the crowd (frequently over the heads of others) and stopped the gig so that people would back off. Would it have been my fault for being drunk that day if someone died? Of course not. That is even assuming that the fans behaved this way, which doesn't seem to be the case.

I have also had the misfortune to see this kind of bad Policing myself. At the Criminal Justice Bill march in London. At the end of the march, instead of letting people disperse into the park, the Police kept us hemmed in against a tube entrance (a ramp). They had horses and people got very panicked and some people were jumping into the tube entrance to get away from the crush. It was terrifying. The next day the newspapers were full of how we had 'rioted' and how the marchers were provoking the Police. Utter bollocks.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 13-Sep-12 20:26:17

As a serious question

Who do you think should be prosecuted for Hillsborough?

Who in the police should be called to answer for Hillsborough?
Should the FA be called to answer why they allowed such a match to be played in an unsafe ground?
There are calls for the man who led the first enquiry in to Hillsborough to resign his post and he wasn't even there that day.

LineRunner Thu 13-Sep-12 20:30:29

I think a Leveson-type inquiry would be the best place to determine potential criminal culpability.

Also there will likely be new inquests.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Thu 13-Sep-12 20:40:39

guineapig Even if some of the fans had been to the pub beforehand - so what? Having a drink before a sporting event isn't an offence.

Falsifying statements is a crime. Perverting the course of justice is a crime. Serious negligence of health and safety standards which ultimately leads to deaths is a crime. Libel is a civil offence.

The fans were guilty of none of those things.

VoldemortsNipple Thu 13-Sep-12 20:43:31

Oh my fucking word!

When was was turning up at 3pm after having a pint a crime. They were on a day out, going to watch a match. They were not going to work to ensure the safety of thousands!

Most of the fans who turned up late had been stuck on trains or coaches that had been delayed.

I'm sorry guineapig but it was the polices job to control the crowd and they failed.

They could have called for the game to be delayed.

They could have closed off the tunnel before opening the gates.

They could have opened the gates onto the pitch as soon as they realised there was a problem.

But most of all, they could have admitted 23 Years ago that mistakes had been made and took responsibility.

I'm truly sorry you had to witness that day first hand. So did the Liverpool fans who have also lived for 23 years with survivers guilt and the majority of the country blaming them for the deaths of there families, friends and fellow fans.

babybythesea Thu 13-Sep-12 20:44:38

Boney - I'm not sure.
But these are some of my thoughts.

Duckenfield - he gave the order to open the gate, and then lied and said fans had kicked it in. At the very least, perverting the course of justice. He was also in charge of the entire security operation. The year before Liverpool played at Hillsborough, and it was run by Duckenfield's predecessor. Then, a system of repeated ticket checks, and funnelling of fans down different routes had been established outside the stadium, none of which was done in '89, which was what lead to the crush outside the stadium.

Whoever doctored evidence, and/or put pressure on junior officers to change statements. Perverting the course of justice again, as the minimum - not sure whether consipracy is a charge but it should be!

Whoever made the decision not to let ambulances onto the pitch, whether an individual or a group decision - that could have saved lives and heads should roll big time.

That, for me, would be a bare minimum.
I would also want someone to have to answer for the 3.15 cut-off time, whether it's the coroner, or (more likely) the people who leant on him.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Thu 13-Sep-12 20:49:33

Voldemort you said it far more eloquently than I could.

baby Yes there is a charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. And it should be applied in this case.

Tiredmumno1 Thu 13-Sep-12 20:57:04

This has taken way to long for the families mainly, and for those who lost their lives on that terrible day, they'll never be forgotten, and the fans who never gave up. I have a lot of respect for everyone who pushed and pushed to get to this point.

Everyone involved in the cover up should be more than ashamed of themselves.

JFT96 YNWA

babybythesea Thu 13-Sep-12 21:00:10

I think it becomes a bit clearer if we take football out of it, because it removes some of the stereotypes.

We've all been on the motorway when somebody speeds past us. We've probably all gone a bit above speed limits but I'm talking the guy who roars past at 120 mph. We all know it goes on.
Imagine a pile up. Kids are involved.
Imagine the police don't divert traffic round but actually send more cars into it, to avoid the traffic jam further back.
Imagine they prevent emergency services from reaching the scene.
And then imagine they say "But drivers speed. It was that that caused the accident. They brought it on themselves by going far too fast."
They use those 120mph people to discredit everyone involved and to hide their own culpability.

In that situation, not one person would say 'but hey, they're right - people do speed. I've been on the motorway and seen people do it, my FIL was there when someone drove at 130mph, so maybe the police (senior officers) had a point to act the way they did!' You'd say 'Well hang on a minute, maybe there are people that drive at a ridiculous pace, but you still get an ambulance there ASAP, you still try to get people out of the cars.....'
And none of the other excuses would wash either (they'd been in the pub and tried to get there quick). It's because it was football and fans had the reputation of being little better than animals.

And I would dispute that anyway - I attended matches at Spurs from around 1985/86, when it was standing on the lower terraces. We went every home game without fail. I never saw violence, and I never felt unsafe. I have since had friends ask if I wasn't scared, because of all the fighting. Well, my folks wouldn't have taken me as a small child if it had been that bad, if serious fights were guaranteed at every game. It was bad, it did exist, and it was not pleasant, but it was not as bad as the media liked to portray. So I think this image of all fans as hooligans and all matches as excuses for riots was OTT and has a lot to answer for. (My mum went to a match where there was a streaker, and it got portrayed as a pitch invasion in the match report after. Really? One guy with his pride and joy on show is a pitch invasion???)

babybythesea Thu 13-Sep-12 21:01:07

Gosh, that was random. Sorry!

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 13-Sep-12 21:04:33

LineRunner babybythesea

thank you for your responses.

My worry is that with all of the calls for various people to be prosecuted it will turn in to a (political point scoring) witch hunt.

VoldemortsNipple Thu 13-Sep-12 21:07:48

babybythesea that streaker was probably a man called Mark Roberts, another scouser grin who has toured the world and streaked at some of the biggest sporting events there are, including the Superbowl.

lovelychops Thu 13-Sep-12 21:09:14

Have been discussing this topic on the 'in the news' section of MN. Today I commented along the lines of wishing there had been more about it on MN. Then I saw this thread...

It's idiots like Karlos who have perpetuated prejudices which have stuck to innocent victims and their families for the last 23 years. Besides ignoring the evidence which was presented yesterday, she is trying to imply that Scousers revel in misery.
I'm not from Liverpool but I have lived here for years, there is a huge fighting spirit associated with the Hillsborough case - a big contributing factor to the fact that those involved never gave up and got the truth as we saw yesterday. But, the support for them is not just nationwide but worldwide. It transcends any football rivalry and is about justice. These weren't hooligans, they were people who simply went to a football match and never came home. And thankfully most people on this thread realise that, and show compassion and empathy.

babybythesea Thu 13-Sep-12 21:10:20

I think that you need to start by asking who did something wrong?

Who was actually involved in doctoring evidence? Who gave orders for some of the very bad decisions made?

If someone had no hand in a decision, they can't be prosecuted.
You can't, for example, as far as I'm aware, prosecute the person who told the mother of one dead boy that her son was the property of the coroner and she wasn't allowed to touch him to say goodbye. That's sickening and morally repugnant, but I don't think it's illegal.

there's enough evidence to go after particular people whose poor decision making cost lives, as well as the people who fabricated evidence. It doesn't need to be a witch-hunt, but people do need to held accountable and responsible for their actions.

thebestisyettocome Thu 13-Sep-12 21:14:19

I've turned up to watch football matches slightly worse for wear. Does that mean it would've been ok for me to have been directed into pens which were already crammed with people hmm

The facts have been revealed at last and still there are people intent of continuing the cover up hmm

The first thing that needs to happen is for the inquiry findings to be overturned and new hearings to be held. After that who knows, but from the evidence that's emerged peverting the course of justice, perjury and even manslaughter charges look highly probable.

thebestisyettocome Thu 13-Sep-12 21:16:11

And this wasn't a football tragedy. It was a tradgy.

lovelychops Thu 13-Sep-12 21:16:16

I agree that it's about accountability. With regards to who should actually be prosecuted, I think it's the people in senior positions who gave the orders for reports to be altered, investigations into victims criminal records, or testing a ten year old for alcohol. These people were perverting the course of justice and that is against the law.

thebestisyettocome Thu 13-Sep-12 21:16:41

tradegy

blondieminxwithGOLDandORANGE Thu 13-Sep-12 21:27:15

YANBU!

What went on is a disgrace and the officers who changed statements and hand any hand in this shameful situation should be charged pronto.

And YY, Kelvin Mackenzie is awful angry angry angry

Those poor families sad. I hope this is the start of some closure for them.

edam Thu 13-Sep-12 22:31:59

Boney - the original coroner should certainly be held to account. He colluded in the cover up by making a bizarre and demonstrably untrue ruling that everyone was dead by 3.15 and therefore refusing to allow any evidence about what happened after 3.15. That allowed the police (the bosses, I mean, not necessarily ordinary PCs), the ambulance service chiefs and everyone else to evade scrutiny. He also treated the families with great cruelty.

Superintendant Duckenfield, the guy in charge of policing that day.

Everyone in the police service who doctored statements and ordered the doctoring of statements.

And that last is one of the most important points because it's still going on today. Look at Mark Duggan - the coppers involved in his killing were allowed to all get together and agree on their statements AND refuse to be interviewed by the IPCC. In what universe is that justice, is that fair, reasonable, or any way to arrive at the truth?

Lushgreenfields Thu 13-Sep-12 23:04:54

I'm really quite scared to ask this, but it is a genuine (uninformed, ignorant etc) question (and I'm sorry I haven't read the reports, but intend to).

I've also typed in a very Janet-and-John way to try and show my thinking clearly - not to try and provoke or offend. Ok here goes...

There were clearly more people in the space than we're able to fit in the space, is that because people were pushing to get in without a ticket? Thrrefore was the police cock-up based on them mishandling the people arriving who shouldn't be there, or was it about just letting too many people in at once? I don't understand how there came to be so many people in the area when there should only have been a set amount, and why the discussion doesn't focus on that.

No-one has mentioned the root cause of why there were just so many people in one place? Surely whoever got the sums wrong (or was there when they shouldn't be) needs to explain themselves?

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Sep-12 23:10:47

There was one entrance which fed into several parts of the ground. There was room for everyone but not in the area behind the goal. Everyone wants to be behind the goal so, because they weren't stopped from going there, they went in there. A couple of police horses or a few stewards could have filtered people off to the sides but they weren't there. This is not the opinion of an expert but just what my understanding is. I heard and believe that the ground was not above capacity and that there were tickets for sale up to the day before so not oversubscribed.

There was also a surge because people were late into the ground, they were in a hurry to get in and then there was a goal, so everyone at the back wanted to see. Having big crowds on a slope with high fences at the bottom is insane and I cannot understand why people didn't think that.

Berris Thu 13-Sep-12 23:13:53

There were 4 pens in the Leppungs Lane end of the terraces at the ground, Lushgreenfields. When Gate C was opened, the natural route for people to take was down the tunnel that led to pens 3&4. These pens were also naturally the first to fill - these were the pens behind the goal, and a good spot. The pens either side of 3&4 were considerably emptier.

It's not so much that there were too many in one place, or that there were ticketless fans. It's more that the lack of control over where people went once they were in the ground caused the overcrowding. They could have closed the tunnel that led to pens 3&4. They didn't. They could have ensured that the people entering the ground after Gate C was opened went to te pens either side of 3&4, where there was more space. They didn't.

This is why the Independent Panel has found, as the Taylor Inquiry did, that the reasons for the tragedy lay at the feet of those who did nothing to control and protect people at the ground.

Lushgreenfields Thu 13-Sep-12 23:17:33

Thank you mrsterry, that has made it a lot clearer for me thanks

ItsNotUnusualToBe Thu 13-Sep-12 23:18:22

From wikipedia: (my bolding)

The disaster happened because most of the fans entering the terraces headed for the central pens 3 and 4 as directed by the large notice pointing them that way above the tunnel. Normally a police officer or steward would direct fans away from full pens, but on that day this did not happen. There were no stewards in that area at all. The official capacity of these pens was around 2,000, but the Health and Safety Executive later found that this should have been reduced to around 1,600 as the crush barriers did not conform to the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds 1986. It is estimated that more than 3,000 people were in these pens shortly after kick off at 3:00 pm. This overcrowding caused the fatal crush.[34][35]

Lushgreenfields Thu 13-Sep-12 23:19:08

And thank you Berris too, sorry to ask the ignorant questions but I really didn't know.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Sep-12 23:19:32

This is a good diagram.

Berris Thu 13-Sep-12 23:24:17

I'm just on Chapter 5 of the report, which is talking about the flaws in the practice of letting fans 'find their own level'. Ths is what they were doing on the day - watching the crowd on the terraces and letting them find their own level. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work when you have pens. The crowd tried to find their own level, but were restricted in the pens.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Sep-12 23:27:40

And, Berris on a slope. Confined and naturally heading down to immovable barriers.

Berris Thu 13-Sep-12 23:31:09

Flaws in 'find their own level'

2.3.62 As an assumed policy, 'find your own level' was flawed. According to John Stalker's Report for SWFC, it was 'hard to fully understand what many police officers meant when expecting the Leppings Lane terrace crowds to "find its own level". Crowds just don't do that without help or direction from officials'.[36] 

2.3.63 In pursuing disciplinary action against Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, the Police Complaints Authority (PCA) drafted charges which argued that 'even a cursory glance would have made it clear that such a policy ['find your own level'] was unworkable'.[37] John Stalker argued that, as a policy, it failed to consider that 'those who arrive early and obtain better positions will not move in order to accommodate the comfort of late comers'.[38] It assumed that if fans considered a pen was full and uncomfortable they could move to the side pens.

2.3.64 Yet 'it was impossible to move sideways beyond the limits of the radial fences and outside help was essential in redistribution of supporters from one pen to another'. Police Constable Peter Smith described how in his experience fans 'find their own level' by climbing over the lateral fences between pens.[39] The system also failed to consider the rate of evacuation in an emergency.

Berris Thu 13-Sep-12 23:33:17

Just nowhere to go in that situation, is there MrsTerrysChocolateOrange?

A crowd of people is very much a living, fluid thing, with the way it moves. There was just nowhere for the people in pens 3&4 to go.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Sep-12 23:36:05

Too true Berris How scared those people must have been. I'm having a real problem with the Hillsborough news at the moment. I can try to have a rational discussion about Policing and the Press and what happened and then I find myself thinking about the 10 year old that died, scared and in that mass of people. It's unbearable.

Berris Thu 13-Sep-12 23:45:51

I've been in many a mosh pit at gigs and festivals. I've felt panicked and crushed at times. But I've also known that if it becomes too much, I can get out. I cannot imagine the fear and panic of that crush growing and not being able to get out of it.

Some people criticise Liverpool for not "dropping it now", but how could they? With what the Independent Panel have uncovered, do people now understand that it could be "dropped"? What has shocked me the most is that I knew that there had been a cover up (the CCTV tapes going "missing" the night of the disaster), but I really had not realised the extent if it. That has really shaken me.

I have colleagues who knew people who died. I have friends and colleagues from both the Red and Blue sides of the city, but we all come together on this. It's not about football. It's about a tragedy, a sickening cover up, a city slurred with lies of the authorities, and there should be prosecutions. There were people who knew the truth, and they sat on it or 23 years. They let the families and this city suffer that injustice. The fight for justice goes on.

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 13-Sep-12 23:50:05

It's taken 23 years to find the truth and now they should drop it?confused
I think the opposite, prosecute everybody that was complicit in the cover up.

Berris Thu 13-Sep-12 23:53:13

I don't think they should ever drop it. I've seen that criticism many times though. And agree - persecutions need to follow, otherwise there is no justice.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Sep-12 23:58:46

Prosecutions are not just for the families. We have a better Police Force now because they were taken to task for the institutional racism, for the treatment of rape victims, for the stuff that they did because they thought they would never be prosecuted.

Prosecutions send the message that if you do something unconscionable, you will be punished even if it takes 25 years. So, a young Police Officer or journalist or whatever, knows that the choices they make will stay with them, forever. We might end up with a better system because of it. If we do, I say it's thanks to the families who won't give up. After all, we have a better Court system thanks to Stephen Lawrence.

Berris Fri 14-Sep-12 00:00:50

I've been caught out there by the cursed auto correct. For persecutions, please read prosecutions!

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Fri 14-Sep-12 00:03:43

I don't know... the families felt pretty persecuted.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 14-Sep-12 00:04:49

Good point re Stephan Lawrence MrsTerry.

flow4 Fri 14-Sep-12 00:25:09

YANBU. This was the worst of a series of 1980s events that were dreadfully misrepresented by lying b#stards press and police. Worst because people died, I mean. Some day perhaps the general public will realise they were fed similar lies about other events too... The Poll Tax 'riots' for instance, were in fact (according to my own eyes and a dozen friends of mine who were actually there) crowds of legal demonstrators defending themselves and others against actual attack by police on horseback and in vehicles. But I'll shut up about that now, because I don't want to hijack. Today is about Hillsborough. Now we know some of the truth, I hope justice follows.

MysteriousHamster Fri 14-Sep-12 00:42:34

guineapig I am appalled. Crowds generally can be a bit scary. I don't like them and I've been at concerts, in London for the millennium and so on. I understand if you were waiting about in the midst of it it might have been a bit intimidating. But you can't ban them from having a drink at an event.

How does having a drink make them responsible I am actually sickened that you were there, saw the affect on the families and are still trying to place responsibility - and you actually used that word - on the football fans for the death of the 96.

I understand you went through something horrible yourself, but if you read the reports you would see the whole thing was mismanaged. A few football fans having a drink and being eager to get to the game is absolutely normal.

It should be dealt with via crowd control, not with blindly directing them all into one pen.

As for the person above trying to slag off the entire city of Liverpool, I have no words. I am from Merseyside, and although most people who know me would either not guess that, or my relatives probably think I've moved on and don't care any more, the city is very much still in my heart. I was there when Liverpool was celebrating winning the Treble in 2001 I think, and the community feeling was amazing. It's a city that knows joy, and it also knows how to fight for justice when tragedy happens.

If you don't like it, get over yourself and move on. Don't rubbish people grieving for a tragedy.

KenDoddsDadsDog Fri 14-Sep-12 08:01:14

As we walk from the pub to watch Sunderland play Liverpool tomorrow , I will be thankful that : we are not going through a giant gate, we are not in a crushed standing stand and we are not caged in like animals. I hope my home city does all the Liverpool fans proud.

guineapiglet Fri 14-Sep-12 12:30:49

Just to say, I have been a football fan for over 40 years, I have had season tickets and stood on terraces and have been to have the odd pint in the pub on many occasions before a match. This was not a bit intimidating, it was bloody petrifying. -When I mentioned responsibility, it was to show that this was a combination of the wrong things, bad crowd control, archaic stands, overcrowding, lack of control etc etc but also the bald fact that when you combine alcohol and crowds, the effect can be devestating, which on this occasion, it tragically was. Are we saying that pissed up crowds have NO responsibility for their actions? What would have happened if the police HAD denied them all access to the ground after 3pm when many( and not just Liverpool supporters) were clearly over the top- probably a riot?

Ive never had the guts to go back to a match after this, and I still love football - I went to many memorial services and helped many of those directly and indirectly affected - it was a terrible, terrible time and I really hope the families get the justice for their loved ones which they so deserve.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Fri 14-Sep-12 12:34:44

What would have happened if the police HAD denied them all access to the ground after 3pm when many( and not just Liverpool supporters) were clearly over the top- probably a riot?

Whatever may have happened, I highly doubt 96 people would have died.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 12:36:25

Fuck off with your malicious shit stirring guineapiglet. The Hillsborough report is quite clear, ALCOHOL PLAYED NO PART WHATSOEVER IN THIS TRAGEDY. THE FANS WERE COMPLETELY INNOCENT OF ANY WRONG DOING. RESPONSIBILITY LIES SOLELY WITH THE AUTHORITIES. Stop pissing on the victims.

guineapiglet Fri 14-Sep-12 12:42:48

Thanks for your charming message. I am not stirring up trouble, I was there, I saw things, with others, as they were and for what its worth, it was a terrible, fatal combination of the facts I described earlier. Having attended many matches during the 80s, the grounds then were deadly. I took flowers to the ground for days, and I didnt piss on anyone, as you so eloquently describe it . Nobody deserved to die. Full Stop.

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Fri 14-Sep-12 12:51:20

The Hillsborough Report combed through all the eye witness statements, all the original police statement, all the CCTV footage, all the press coverage and all subsequent investigation materials. They say you account is a delibrate, malicious fabrication. You are a liar.

Pippinintherain Fri 14-Sep-12 13:08:25

FFS guineapiglet, it doesn't matter if the fans were drunk or not. The police fucked up, big time, but instead of holding their hands up and admit they made mistakes, they lied. They tried to cover their arses and had people believe it was the fans fault.

There were people, children, killed, if the police had done their jobs properly it wouldn't have happened.

Yes, it might have kicked off had they shut the gates but 96 innocent people would not be dead, killed in the most horrific way.

Don't try blaming people who had a few drinks before a game, which is perfectly legal last time I looked, when it was the people in charge who failed them so severley.

VoldemortsNipple Fri 14-Sep-12 13:55:22

guineapig can I ask what your role was that day?

Can I ask how you could see what was happening outside the ground and inside the first hand?

Also can you please explain why the crushing to death of fans and children wasn't a weekly occurrence at football grounds up and down the country back then. After all having a drink before the match go hand in hand.

AnneTwacky Fri 14-Sep-12 14:37:38

Guineapig do you realise that there were similiar incidents that happened at the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough in 1981, 1987 and 1988 that due to better crowd management did not end in tragedy.

The design of the terraces/ entrance was clearly not fit for purpose especially when the ground was sold out at full capacity.

I'm really sorry that you or anyone had to go through such a traumatic event but don't blame innocents who've suffered just as much as you did, and in many cases much, much more.

Hanleyhigh Fri 14-Sep-12 14:45:19

I lived near Hillsborough for a while about a decade ago - the stuff Guineapig is saying was repeated to me time and time again by perfectly rational people.

I challenged it then but I don't think it made any difference. It's repeated as fact.

As someone said on the other thread, a lot of people have probably convinced themselves that the "official" story told back then was true, especially those involved who otherwise have those 96 deaths on their concience...
Must be much easier to insist that the supporters must have done something wrong, than admit that you personally could have helped and didnt.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 14-Sep-12 17:55:22

AnneTwacky
"that due to better crowd management did not end in tragedy."

How do you know that it was better crowd control and not just luck?

AnneTwacky Fri 14-Sep-12 20:21:06

Boney

Not denying that luck may have had a part to play to qualify my statement I've quoted directly from the report summary.

"27. The confined outer concourse area serving the Leppings Lane turnstiles accommodated the entire Liverpool crowd, heading towards three discrete areas within the stadium (North Stand; West Stand; Leppings Lane terrace). It was a well-documented bottleneck and at matches with capacity attendance presented and foreseeable risk of crushing and injury.

28. From statements provided to the Panel, at previous FA Cup semi-finals SYP managed congestion in the outer concourse area and its approaches by filtering the crowd and checking tickets on the roads leading to the ground. This did not happen in 1989. The former SYP match commander, Chief Superintendent Brian Mole,denied that filtering the crowd’s approach to the turnstiles had been previously adopted as police practice."

Also a bit further on

"33. From the SYP statements disclosed to the Panel it is evident that SWFC stewards and SYP offers with experience of managing the crowd on the Leppings Lane
terrace had adopted the practice of redirecting fans to side pens when the central
pens were estimated to be full. At semi-final matches in 1987 and in 1988 the
gates at the entrance to the tunnel opposite the turnstiles and leading into the
central pens were closed temporarily by police officers who redirected fans to the side pens. In 1988 many fans in the central pens experienced crushing and minor injuries. Neither the gate closures nor the crushing were recorded in debriefing notes."

The report in full is here if anyone wants to read it.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 14-Sep-12 21:16:35

Just as a general FYI

I am not denying the cupability of the police or am I defending the cover up that followed.

AnneTwacky
"It was a well-documented bottleneck and at matches with capacity attendance presented and foreseeable risk of crushing and injury."

the area was known about for years the first crushing incident was 1981 (I think) yet 8 years later and after three separate incidents it had not been sorted out. Yet the FA decided to hold the match at a stadium that was known to have problems when at capacity.

It was an incident waiting to happen.

edam Sat 15-Sep-12 12:10:54

for Guineapig and anyone else who thinks 'I was there, I have the right to blame the fans despite all the evidence the dead were innocent' Perhaps a reputable medical professor who happened to be there as a junior doc on a day off is enough of an independent authority figure to persuade you

anonacfr Sat 15-Sep-12 17:33:11

I've just read some of the accounts of the survivors and it has made me feel sick. Those poor people. The terror and agony they must have felt.

And then to be treated like shit as they were trying to save their own lives and that of those around them? Astounding. They must have felt like they were part of a living nightmare.
And then they got vilified for even being there.

Holy shit.

Bluegingham Sat 15-Sep-12 22:26:27

I read some too - the original witness statements are utterly harrowing. I had to stop I was crying so hard.

CFSKate Sun 10-Feb-13 08:53:24

This article in the Mail claims that under the new secret justice bill things like Hillsborough could be covered up

"The shocking outcome of the recent Hillsborough Inquiry, bringing justice at last to 97 families? If similar circumstances were to arise again, it is likely that justice would never be delivered: if the families tried to sue, alleging a bungled police operation and a subsequent cover-up, the Bill would give the authorities the ability to keep the truth concealed."

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