Young teens, strings & pubic depilation

(353 Posts)
tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 06:44:25

My eldest daughter is just 14 and I've found a lacy string in her room and now a big wad of pubic hair in her shower: suspect we're talking a close shave, and I dread to think how much she's taken off. I don't think there's a (serious) boy in the picture or if this is just peer-pressurised body-angst, but - while I'm no saint and have been around the block myself in my time - I really hate this current pole-dancer/porn shaved pussy trend. Call me a square (and maybe a hypocrite as I do wax up to my bikini line - sorry; TMI but I'm hoping we're all girls together in here - or can at least tolerate girl talk) I think total pubic baldness is unreconstructed pandering to male fantasy... IMO even Brazilians and landing strips are inappropriate for young teens. Still trying to cope with the string (yes, this is my first daughter, and she's growing up, so maybe I have to get used to it. We've had the high heels conversation, the provocative dressing and the make-up one...is this just the next step?)

I find it gutting that such young girls fall for this kind of stuff. OK - once you're older then it's your business, but kids need boundaries and should we and can we draw the line? Given the images they can get access to online - which they can and do, no matter what precautions you try to put in place at home - I'm not surprised they feel under pressure. Yes, I have looked - half the porn girls are bald; most have breast implants. Call me old fashioned, but - yeeuch.

I would've died if my mum had ever discussed my depilation issues with me. I can just see it: 'Darling...about your pubes...' 'Yeah, Mum, whatever: bog off.' You can't! Maybe I just tell her I don't think she should leave big clods of pubic hair in the plughole from a hygiene and self-respect POV.

What do I do? Do I do nothing, and leave it? It's her body...AIBU even to think of getting involved?

mynewpassion Tue 03-Jul-12 06:49:25

public baldness? So she's going out naked? Shouldn't you have had this conversation a long time ago? hmm

I would talk to her about cleaning up her hair after she shaves, honestly.

MrsBucketxx Tue 03-Jul-12 06:56:51

ask her to clear up after herself,

but shaving is not permenent is it, its not like she has gone and got something pierced tatooed.

lots of girls/women including myself do this to feel clean and fresh nowt to do with porn. i bet she shaves her legs and armpits too.

its not a big issue, but your sure as dammit making into one

YABU

LucieMay Tue 03-Jul-12 07:07:04

She might just be curious or experimenting. I remember shaving all mine off at a similar age and it was terrificly itchy growing back! I didn't do it for a boy, I was just curious!

manticlimactic Tue 03-Jul-12 07:19:24

My DD (16) shaved all hers off at the same age , she didn't do it for a boy. She said it was too bushy so thought she'd get rid of it. I found out from the amount of offcuts left in the bath. She doesn't do it now, too itchy and when she had a boyfriend she didn't do it again.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 07:24:50

Thanks, LucieMay I think you could be right. Sigh of relief. No pubes wasn't the rage but I definitely was experimenting at her age.

MrsBucketxx 'your sure as dammit making into one' - defensive! Talk about boxing gloves so early in the morning. I'm not criticising you if that's what you want and I'm not 'making it into one' - I'm on Mumsnet getting some off-the-record advice, which is what Mumsnet is for...maybe you don't have a daughter to worry about, or a teenage one - yet.

But if you want to have that argument, you don't need to shave off your pubes for hygiene reasons. There's nothing dirty about them. You don't shave your head to 'feel clean and fresh', do you?

Ultimately as an adult it's your choice, but it's aesthetic, and I think while it doesn't seem problematic for her to be shaving/waxing legs or armpits if that's what she wants (in fact I help them do it), pubes are sexual, they're private, she's 14 and it's totally different.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 07:26:55

manticlimactic ditto, re sigh of relief. This is all I need to hear...thanks.

redpanda13 Tue 03-Jul-12 07:28:00

I shaved all mine off when I was around your daughter's age. I just hated having pubes. Really loathed and detested them. Much more than hairy legs or armpits. Sorry for the bit of cod psychology but I do think it was to do with me having to accept I was growing up. Yes I was pressurising my mum to let me wear heels and makeup but pubes was an adult step too far. Anyway it itched and I never did it again.
Oh and this was the early 80's when porn was in magazines and bushy was the norm.

I actually get rid of most of mine for hygiene reasons. I have heavy periods and can't use tampons since having dc. Much easier to clean myself without the hair there. Apologies to anyone trying to enjoy their breakfast.

Maybe your daughter has a similar issue?

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 07:33:44

Apologies to anyone trying to enjoy their breakfast grin

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 07:39:59

redpanda I like your cod psychology theory. At least with the heels you can take them off when you get into bed at night. Growing up's a big shock. I can totally see where pubes are an adult step too far.

controlpants - 'can't use tampons since having dc' - GOD I know I worry about what my daughter might get up to, but I don't think she's managed to have any babies in secret yet ...

I think that now she's fourteen, your daughter's pubic hair is none of your business. Unless you think she might cut herself with a razor or be using veet or something in a way that might burn her skin or something, keep your nose out.
Why assume she's "pandering to male fantasy" or whatever you think she's doing? hmm
Your immediate "oh my daughter is a trollop and pandering to men" thoughts are more "disturbing" than her depliating.

MrsBucketxx Tue 03-Jul-12 07:45:44

if my 14 year old dd decided to shave i wouldnt have an issue with it.

its odd that you would think its something to do with sex, maybe that has more to do with you. than your daughter.

at 14 i was doing thing a lot worse than shaving. i was growing up and experimenting its what teenagers so.

i hate having pubes, (infact any body hair really) i started removing it at around the same age.

rainydaysarebad Tue 03-Jul-12 07:45:46

Wth is a lacey string? confused

I've been depilating for as long as I can remember and my mum bought me immac to do it. It wasn't for a boy it was for me. And tell her to clean up after herself. Yuck.

MrsBucketxx Tue 03-Jul-12 07:46:29

do not so.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 08:17:01

pombear - 'keep your nose out' - um...I'm not some rude overbearing stranger - I'm her Mum, and I'm a single mum bringing up four daughters, so I appreciate the chance to ask a question if it's bothering me without necessarily coming under attack. I'm not talking to her, I'm on Mumsnet talking about her and wondering what other women feel about this...I'm not sure why the hostility?

Sorry, but as I said while having smooth legs and armpits is one thing and I get why the bikini line, I happen to think habitually removing all your pubes aged 14 would be a weird thing to do. I wanted to see what anyone else thought. Though as I also said I totally buy that she could be experimenting. I don't know what you mean by 'a lot worse than shaving' is, MrsB ... but if you're worried I'm a stick-in-the-mud forget it - I had a fulltime boyfriend at that age and spent every weekend at his trying it every which way.

And for what it's worth, I think it's really odd you think it has NOTHING to do with sex...

MrsBucketxx Tue 03-Jul-12 08:20:05

a lot worse in my book is drinking, smoking, getting my nose pierced, skipping school.

shaving is a non issue, and has nothing to do with sex.

i was shaving then with no boyfriend at all.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 08:22:36

'drinking, smoking, getting my nose pierced' - I was still doing that as an adult!
hmm

MistyRocks Tue 03-Jul-12 08:25:41

omg

i am bare downstairs but surely 14 is a bit young to whip it all off?

i would be worried there was a boy in the picture tbh sad

time for a chat with her i think.

BellaVita Tue 03-Jul-12 08:25:52

I think you are over reacting tbh.

Coconutty Tue 03-Jul-12 08:27:04

Lacy string and a porn shaved pussy?

WTAF? This OP seems really odd to me, if you genuinely want advice, mind your own business. Her hair, her choice.

Can see why you'd be worried - I think 14 is probably a bit young to be removing pubic hair but like others have said it could be worse. Maybe just mention the clogged drain quietly. Tbh she probably won't shave it again as it itches like hell. I actually do feel cleaner which is why I have a full Hollywood wax, especially when pg, but that is personal choice. She may be emulating images that she has seen online etc, it's not that far fetched but it's just as likely, in fact more likely to be so she herself can see what she'd look like and not 'for a boy'.

Gibbous Tue 03-Jul-12 08:28:49

I shaved mine off when they started to grow at the age of 11 or so because they were unfamiliar and that was the hairy bush early 80s. I suspect she's just experimenting.

And fwiw I had a similar experience of finding a clump of clearly shaved pubic hair in the shower plug and I have (at the time) a 13-year-old DS. (and the git used my Venus).

I can understand your concerns OP, I detest the current pornification trend (when, exactly, did it become acceptable to say to someone you hardly know 'I'd smash your back doors in?!' angry ) but I don't think this is as sinister as you fear.

Tortington Tue 03-Jul-12 08:29:28

I'd get her to clean out the plughole

thats a deterrant if ever there was one - oh god the shower ply that i clean out is fucking distgusting. <heave>

CoteDAzur Tue 03-Jul-12 08:30:00

Are you even sure that this is about sex?

Can she just be shaving/trimming the sides so that they don't stick outside of her bikini? She might be planning to swim with her friends sometime soon.

YANBU to take an interest, so maybe ask her if she has heard of the feminist viewpoint on body hair rather than directly ask about her pubes.

YABU re "public depilation", though grin I read that and thought someone was going to be tied to a pole in the village square and waxed against her will in front of the neighbours.

And why the hostility towards the OP - its her young daughter and she's a bit concerned. Sensitivity anyone?

Gibbous Tue 03-Jul-12 08:30:53

I personally wouldn't mention the clog drained, in relation to pubic hair anyway, maybe make out you're concerned at the amount of head hair in it and could she ensure she clears up after herself, but as a young teen I would have been MORTIFIED at that being picked upon.

And fwiw, again, my plug hole hasn't been blocked with pubic hair again several months later apart from my own

Gibbous Tue 03-Jul-12 08:31:15

*clogged drain. It's early.

catus Tue 03-Jul-12 08:33:38

I don't have much experience of teenage girls, but I would be worrying a bit in your situation.
It's not a really serious issue, obviously, but I would try to have a chat with her, try to understand why she feels the need to remove her pubic hair. And maybe talk about societal pressures on women and girls.
You are her mother and she is only 14, so I don't see why you can't have a chat with her, in a non judgmental, non confrontational way.
YANBU.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 08:35:51

I dunno - I may say I'm very grateful to all you ladies for getting down and dirty in this topic, btw: thanks for your frank comments. I do genuinely trust my daughter and I respect her own autonomy over herself, which is why I haven't barged straight in and spoken to her about it. I don't think she's up to anything silly - I just want to look out for her: it's interesting to know where other Mums stand on this. You worry about how their perceptions get manipulated, and how under peer pressure or reading mags/looking at sites they might feel inadequate for no reason. At school a teacher told them they weren't allowed to swim or have a bath when they had their period, which I think is the sort of thing my Granny would have thought but never expected to hear in this day and age. People have different ideas about stuff and I like that it comes out in the open. Look at it this way: I would hate for her to be taking it all off because she had a friend, or yes, maybe a boyfriend, who'd made her think she was dirty or somehow not 'right' being natural.

Cockwomble Tue 03-Jul-12 08:36:06

If you don't want to have to mention the drain, pop a hair catcher in the plughole maybe? That will catch it all and make it obvious to her it's there to be cleared iyswim.

I have a friend whose shaved hers off since she got them, as that's what she prefers! Please don't worry too much.

squeakytoy Tue 03-Jul-12 08:38:34

"but as I said while having smooth legs and armpits is one thing and I get why the bikini line, I happen to think habitually removing all your pubes aged 14 would be a weird thing to do"

you dont know that she has removed them all, and it really isnt any of your business if she has done anyway..

I would be more concerned about ensuring she is using contraception if you suspect she might be having sex though.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 08:44:34

I'm not worrying too much...just wondering; honestly. It's not about tidying up her bikini line - there was way too much stuff. The plughole will survive, as it has much else before. I never said 'public' depilation, but it's hilarious - sounds positively medieval.

And thank you, LilBlondePessimist - exactly.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 08:46:22

'I would be more concerned about ensuring she is using contraception if you suspect she might be having sex though.' - thanks for your concern, but this has nothing to do with sex or contraception: it's just about body hair and body perceptions.

CoteDAzur Tue 03-Jul-12 08:48:53

I don't agree that it's not OP's "business". At 14, her DD is legally a child and OP still has the duty to prepare her for the world, including matters of a sexual/body image nature.

squeakytoy Tue 03-Jul-12 08:48:58

It may be about body hair, but if you suspect she is doing it for a boyfriend, along with the lace string then that implies that she is possibly having sex with that boyfriend.

Hair will grow back, babies and STI's are a bit more long term and complicated.

BertieBotts Tue 03-Jul-12 08:49:03

I think it would be worth having a conversation just saying if you want to do this of course it's fine, but you know you don't have to do it, don't you?

I know most of my friends at school shaved theirs and I did feel a pressure to because "everyone else did" and there was a bit of a general feeling of "eurgh" about it. And for the record I'm 24 and have only ever had one bloke object, and he was a knob anyway. Good discussion point: If a boy/man puts pressure on you to look a certain way, he's not a loving caring person who appreciates you for who you are, and this transcends "old" ness (as she may well think you're out of touch and don't know what boys her age are like these days - sorry!)

I used to remove it mainly because I hated it getting all bloody and matted during my period (surely we're past TMI warnings now? grin) although since I've started using a mooncup it hasn't been an issue. But if she uses pads it may be bothering her.

CoteDAzur Tue 03-Jul-12 08:50:05

LOL. I actually saw "public" in thread title, and so did mynewpassion, it seems grin

OneHandFlapping Tue 03-Jul-12 08:52:12

I understand your concern. I hate the idea that girls are forced to undergo time-consuming and uncomfortable rituals to conform with male expectations. And the fact that even our genitals are no longer good enough au naturel is deeply offensive to me.

However, your daughter will want to conform. Teenage girls are sheep, and I expect if you were a fly on the bathroom wall of her friends, you'd find they've all done exactly the same.

All you can do is talk to her generally about beauty standards and the pressure they impose. Oh, and get her to cean out the plug hole.

I don't understand why other posters are being so aggressive. Maybe it's early morning pre-coffee grumps.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 08:59:29

I keep trying to log off as I have to take a (younger, probably non-depilated) daughter to the orthodontist, but this thread has me... BertieBotts 'surely we're past TMI warnings now?' grin grin grin shame-no-icon-for-belly-laugh. I agree - probably some kind of conversation, a light-footed one, at an easy moment. She totally thinks I'm old...fair point; I'm 32 years older than she is so, er, I am. Partly why I posted in the first place is that I do suspect this is an age thing, but I'm not in the habit of asking any old 20 year old on the street if they've whipped off all their pubes or just some of them. I do teach in a school full of teenage girls/boys so I see a fair bit of how they are and what they say and do....but ditto: it isn't a casual conversation you can have, really, is it?!

Mooncups are great. My girl won't even entertain the idea of sticking anything up there, so the clean thing may after all be an issue for her.

CanIhavesomeginnowplease Tue 03-Jul-12 09:00:04

Oh gosh, just leave her to it! They're her pubes. Let her do what she wants with them. And as for the state of the shower, a simple "wash out the shower when you're done" should suffice. She'll get the jist.

tsunami Tue 03-Jul-12 09:02:31

christ! the orthodontist!! thanks everyone - gotta go

fizzfiend Tue 03-Jul-12 09:02:35

I brought this up a while back and was told it was nothing to do with me. I felt like such a prude but I hate that girls feel the need to do this at such a young age. To me the only reason to shave it all off is for a sexual purpose. After all, everyone managed to keep clean in the bushy 70s/80s.

I feel its just too early to start such high maintenance stuff too, and therefore would discourage dd from highlighting hair,etc. I'm not sure what the answer is but I don't want my 14 year old dd trying to emulate porn stars. I know I don't have much say in the matter, but I would try and make my views gently clear without trying to dictate or lay down the law.

Could you buy her a trimmer and explain that she doesn't need to take it all off?

WorraLiberty Tue 03-Jul-12 09:13:51

'I would be more concerned about ensuring she is using contraception if you suspect she might be having sex though.' - thanks for your concern, but this has nothing to do with sex or contraception: it's just about body hair and body perceptions

Well you're the one who brought "pole dancer/porn/shaved pussy trend" into it.

And unless you know exactly how much pubic hair she had in the first place, you can't possibly know whether it was simply an over enthusiastic bikini hair removal.

Either way, not everyone removes their own personal hair because of pole dancers and their 'shaved pussies' hmm

Just make sure she tidies up the bathroom and butt out.

thebackson12 Tue 03-Jul-12 09:17:42

I didn't leave school very long ago,

every girl had a 'shaven haven' very few of them were actually having sex.

its was just expected that women shaved 'that area' , I wouldn't assume she is having sex.

and lacy knickers, they just want to feel 'grown up' its just slightly upping the notch on 'toddling around in mummies shoes.

I wouldn't be overly concerned.

Dancergirl Tue 03-Jul-12 09:20:48

cotedazur I completely agree with you.

'Her body, her choice'??! You know, call me old-fashioned but this attitude of just letting teens do what they damn well please without any intervention from adults is partly responsible for them getting into all sorts of trouble these days. And yes, if it were my dd, I probably would share the OP's concern for her reasoning.

And no, not all teenage girls are sheep....and I certainly wouldn't encourage them to be so.

WorraLiberty Tue 03-Jul-12 09:26:23

Right so how do you stop a teenager removing their pubes?

Do you sit them on the naughty step for every hair they take off?

No-one has to be a 'sheep' but you'll find that most teens tend to want to dress like their peers/have hair styles like their peers/shoes like their peers/make up like their peers.

By 14 (or a lot earlier) many teens are already removing their leg hair and the hair under their arms.

To many, tidying up their bikini lines or going a step further is a totally 'normal' thing....even if the older generation don't like it or insist on comparing it to porn stars and pole dancers.

thebackson12 Tue 03-Jul-12 09:29:26

With all due respect even at 14 , their fanny their rules.

you can't encourage , ownership and bodily intergrity and then be sergeant major on how you 'groom yourself' she maybe not be 18, but she is NOT a child, she is a young adult.

once you start having periods you are no longer a child with no bodily autonomy.

Dancergirl Tue 03-Jul-12 09:35:48

worraliberty, you are completely missing my point. I don't think the OP wants to 'stop' her dd removing her pubes, just wants to have a possible discussion with her. I'm not saying at all that you can stop or want to stop your teen doing certain things, not at all. I'm just surprised that many parents don't seem to care what things they get up to and just assume it's part of normal teenage culture. Body/sexual image is really important and I wouldn't want my teenage dd going through all these things without an adult to help and guide her. If a parent doesn't care what she does, then who else will??

WorraLiberty Tue 03-Jul-12 09:40:55

It's not necessarily that they don't care

It's (imo) that not everyone makes the massive leap from hair removal to porn and pole-dancing etc hmm

The younger generation do not necessarily connect the two at all and I imagine there are parents out there who actually know this.

catus Tue 03-Jul-12 09:45:21

I think there must be a middle ground between saying "it's wrong, don't do it" and "it's none of my business, do what you want", surely?
Why not have a gentle chat about it, see why she feels the need to do it? To me, a 14 yo is not an adult and needs guidance.

AnyFucker Tue 03-Jul-12 09:50:29

OP, you might have been better posting this on the Feminism/Womens Rights/Chat thread

I understand your concern.

thebackson12 Tue 03-Jul-12 09:52:12

I may be alone but I think a 14 year old should be free to do what she wants with her 'down stairs' I think taking away all control of her body may be a mis step.

I waxed everything off from being about 11 , but it was more to do with periods (I started when I was 9) I do thing you have to allow some privacy. Like i said if there are other reasons for your concerns than that's different.

I don't think letting their bodies be their own is giving a green light to delinquent activity its often quite the opposite actually. young people who are in control of themselves fully are less likely to have to seek it somewhere else.

catus Tue 03-Jul-12 10:01:53

A 14 yo should be free to shave it all off, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't express concern and have a chat about what it means to her, and go from there if need be to talk about the societal pressures encoutered by women and girls.

mmmvanilla Tue 03-Jul-12 10:44:48

OP , I totally understand your concerns and the awkwardness you feel about bringing the subject up in a conversation with your DD.

I think you should have a talk though, to make sure she is aware that it is a new trend, pubic hair was normal and expected not very long ago and lots of women still choose not to shave and that choice is perfectly fine.
Trimming, tiding up, so that she feels confident in a swimming costume, is good grooming but to get rid of the pubic hair totally is not necessary at all.

Some posters here are being very unreasonable IMO, you expect mothers to discuss safe sex, contraception with their children but this issue is suddenly too private, taboo......weird.
Of course, it is sensitive subject and has to be handled as such but where else is the girl going to get the sensible grown up advice to balance the peer pressure ?

TBH, reading this thread, especially some posters' entries, makes me quite depressed but at the same time I feel such a relief that I have three sons, don't have to worry about them having to battle such pressures, put up with all the expense, time wasting, humiliatation of salon waxing, the itch, the possibility of rash, ingrown hair , etc.

Another great sigh of relief , I am 41, hoooooray, I avoided all this horror in my youth and I don't have to care about it at all now.
I've been married for 17 years, still get plenty of sex, but my DH would laugh and be a bit put off if I jumped to bed bald as a plucked chicken ! ( I asked him)

PanickingIdiot Tue 03-Jul-12 11:53:09

Some posters here are being very unreasonable IMO, you expect mothers to discuss safe sex, contraception with their children but this issue is suddenly too private, taboo......weird.

This. Prior to discovering Mumsnet I wouldn't have thought pubic hair was such a controversial issue. For me it's on a par with flossing teeth, dying hair or using make-up - part personal preference, part hygiene, part aesthetic, but nothing worth getting my knickers in a twist about. All this talk about porn and "pressure" - wtf?

Tbh I would bring it up with a 14-year-old, but only to teach her how to do it properly, not to save her from becoming a porn idol or some other such lurking danger.

imnotmymum Tue 03-Jul-12 11:58:48

I shave everywhere (not head !!) as I do not like hairs at all. Nothing to do with porn. It is her body and frankly I would be more horrified if my DD went swimming with it all hanging out!! Lacy string ?? Well knicker lines do look horrid. Definitely get her to clean up though I mean that is just rude

Not read quite the whole thread but... have you actually seen what she's done anyway? If she is (ahem) of a hairy disposition, then just a tidy-up (like for swimming), maybe a neat V and trim of the longest remaining bits, could still leave quite a bit of hair in the shower, especially the first time she does it. So you might be worrying about nothing anyway! (Apologies if you did already mention this).

youngmummy17 Tue 03-Jul-12 12:07:01

I think i was around 14 when i shaved it all off, I remember in school all the boys would say a bush was disgusting and take the piss out of various other girls for having a 'bush' so i just decided to shave it off as i thought i was weird for having hair down their, it was more peer pressure and wanting to be normal, i was to scared of ever being called bush!

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Tue 03-Jul-12 12:18:38

youngmummy that's dreadful. I'm all for choice - if you don't like pubic hair get rid by all means - but feeliing compelled to do so because of a bunch of little twats at school? sad

I'd go absolutely fucking nuts if I found out my ds took part in bullying like that. Where on earth do we start though?

OP, I think I was almost certainly wearing lingerie rather than training bras and pants by your dd's age. I wouldn't think too much of that.

youngmummy17 Tue 03-Jul-12 12:21:13

AM not a huge fun but i have long thick curly hair and a group of boys assumed my pubic hair would be big and bushy, after having DS i'm to scared to go to the extremes i used to! 2nd degree tear put me off full shaving for life!

PandaWatch Tue 03-Jul-12 12:21:14

OP I started trimming everything right down when I first got my period. I used towels for the first year and it felt gross to me when it got all messy down below IYSWIM. When I was 18ish I read in Cosmo or some such magazine about shaving and started doing so because it felt so much cleaner to me (not suggesting that having pubes isn't clean - just a personal choice!). It had nothing to do with sex whatsoever.

I can see why you're concerned OP for the reasons you've given but I honestly wouldn't worry. Some people just don't like pubes! grin

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Tue 03-Jul-12 12:21:37

And how things change. When I was 14 you'd have been ridiculed for having no pubic hair, and envied for your maturity if you were luxuriant of bush.

KitCat26 Tue 03-Jul-12 12:43:26

Why don't you have a chat to her about it if you are worried (although tbf I think I'd have been mortified if my mum had ever said anything to me on the subject!).

I was about 15 or so when I started trimming and probably 17 when I started experimenting whipping the whole lot off (waxing - shaving is too itchy). I was wearing thongs at 15 too.

Perhaps your DD doesn't want pubes sticking out of her lacey string? Either way let her get on with it or suggest longer lasting methods of hair removal which wont block your plug! (waxing should put her off for a while wink).

WorraLiberty Tue 03-Jul-12 12:49:51

You have to remember as well that thongs are still popular...especially under leggings or skinny jeans because they reduce VPL.

If a girl regularly wears thongs, she'll probably give herself a more 'severe' hair removal rather than have pubes sticking out.

When I was 14 there were no thongs and even knickers and swimsuits had more material in them.

Bonsoir Tue 03-Jul-12 12:55:08

I don't think this is any of your business, apart from the fact that your DD left her shaved pubes clogging the shower! Definitely remind her to remember to clear out shaved body hair (you don't have to say pubic hair) after her shower.

thebackson12 Tue 03-Jul-12 13:53:11

Yes, I'd perhaps remind her to clean up after herself.

Chundle Tue 03-Jul-12 14:00:34

I think some replies have been very harsh the OP was just asking for advice.

OP I imagine when your DD realises how bloody itchy it will be when it regrows she won't do it again! You can perhaps leave the chat til you catch her itching then a small passing comment like "won't be doing that again will you!" Should suffice ;)
Fwiw my neighbours boy is 12 and has just shaved all his pubic hair off she thinks its because he didn't want to grow up and is now walking round itching like a mad thing ;)

My DD1 has been having waxes since about 14, she has it all off, which is something I have done for years and what she is used to seeing on me.

When she first asked me to take her for a wax she told me that its common topic at school from the minute pubes arrive, amongst her friends and other girls, this was then confirmed by my nieces (teen girls of various ages).

These things do trickle down e.g. Someone sees it and tries it or has an older sister/mother/friend they know who does this then they try it and share that with their friendship circle.

There can be a sexual element but most of the teens I know don't associate hair removal and porn. They don't even associate breast implants and porn or glamour modelling. These things have become modern acceptable lifestyle choices and I think you are really over thinking it.

Tell her to clean up, teach her to do it properly.

Also wtf is a lacy string?

Feminine Tue 03-Jul-12 14:22:28

G-string perhaps? Ruby

susitwoshoes Tue 03-Jul-12 14:31:56

I would be very concerned about this. Although for some posters on here their removal of pubic hair had nothing to do with sex, it would be very naive to think today, when porn is so easily accessible and all porn stars seem to have no pubes, that it might have something to do with it. Whatever the reason, I would hate to think of my DD feeling pressurized into removing her pubic hair. (TMI alert) I have very thick dark hair EVERYWHERE down below and I can't imagine letting a razor get that close to my bits, or the pain of having hair ripped out of my labia. And the ingrowing hairs and itchy grow-back just from a normal bikini line wax is a nightmare. Maybe she'll be different - maybe not. But I think it's totally fair of the OP to be concerned and to talk to her daughter about it. I find it extraordinary that there are parents on here who are totally happy that their daughters bow to this pressure rather than let them realize that there is nothing odd or disgusting about pubic hair, however misguided their peers may be on the subject.

Ohhhhhhhh Ok, Thanks Feminine yes that does make sense. I was thinking it was some kind of hair removal contraption. Maybe she had gone threading rogue and done it with a lacy string? confused Clearly not.

Bonsoir Tue 03-Jul-12 14:40:14

When I was a teenager a lot of my friends were Italian and German. Their mothers didn't want them removing their underarm hair for much the same reasons as some posters don't think it is appropriate for teens to remove pubic hair.

thebackson12 Tue 03-Jul-12 14:43:25

It is and it isn't susiwhoshoes more to do with feeling like a grown up.

TheSecondComing Tue 03-Jul-12 14:57:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

boredandrestless Tue 03-Jul-12 14:59:45

I shaved my pubes off at this age and still do.

The was no TOWIE or easy access to internet porn back then. I simply prefer not to have a bush of hair - personal preference. I also used to wear thongs or G-strings. This was so I didn't have VPL on my trousers/skirts.

I wouldn't have left a clump of pubic hair in the bathroom though! I'd be asking her to leave the bathroom clean and tidy.

PanickingIdiot Tue 03-Jul-12 15:26:35

porn is so easily accessible and all porn stars seem to have no pubes

I'm sure my grandmothers would have considered hair dying a worrying trend and a threat to young female morals too. Or make-up. Or nail varnish. I'm pretty sure porn stars do all that, too. As do most of the non-pornstar population.

Rezolution Tue 03-Jul-12 15:33:49

Ruby I thought the same as you. Thought a lacy string might be something I had missed in Boots.
Well, when we were 14 we all did odd things, didn't we? Or am I the only honest one around here?

lovebunny Tue 03-Jul-12 17:46:46

i'd say you have something to worry about.

imnotmymum Tue 03-Jul-12 18:13:19

why lovebunny ?

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Wed 04-Jul-12 08:15:01

Considering the mess I made shaving my legs, I'd rather 14yos refrained kept razors well away from their genitalia.

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 09:03:20

I was brought up in a very different culture than over here but my mum was what most people there would have concidered fairly radical, I was never allowed to shave anything at all not even legs I also have very dark hair so this was very noticable,this was due to in my mums words "not conforming to stereotypes and mens conditioning expectations towards how women should look" and yes that also covered fashion underware and makeup. It was horrible just horrible I was hummileated by this and teased about it.till I just went and did it.bingo problem solved.
A 14 year old is highly unlikly or willing to even entertain some of the reasoning as to why they shouldn't shave and to be quite frank they shouldn't have to,most 14 yo are more than capaple of low level inderpendance and some degree of privacy,they can form there own thoughts regarding this when there old enough to have a understanding of social presure and how it works.there pubic/body hair should not be up for discussion how they feel about it whilst there getting used to it turning up ect is up to them.
OP she's 14 not 10 she should be cleaning up after herself and that includes the shower plug after she's used it,politly ask her if she would be impressed at having to clean yours up whilst you hand her the jiff

my dd does the same, and she is 12 shock
i was considering post on mn about it, am concerned.
but from the skim reading i have done, <<well it is 4 pages, yawn>> it seems some of you did the same at the same age,

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 09:30:59

The current fashion for girls and young women to remove all of their pubic hair is really awful to me TBH.

The growing idea that if you don't remove them it is unhygienic is just depressing.

The fashion has come from porn, that's just obvious.

Still if it's what 14yo (12yo) girls are doing then it's what they are doing. OP just have a general chat with her about grooming etc when it comes up - try and get across that things are her choice she doesn't have to do anything just because everyone else is. It won't make any difference now but it might sink in and re-emerge when she is out of her teens.

BertieBotts Wed 04-Jul-12 09:42:15

I don't think it matters if the girls themselves associate it with porn, the fact is that's where is originated, and a lot of pressure is from the boys (directly or indirectly) - as youngmummy says. Either the boys will say things or other girls will pick up on things boys say and filter the message through to other girls. And some of these boys will be porn users, so it's being reinforced constantly from both sides, their peers and what they're seeing.

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 10:08:55

Perhaps if we get all excited and up in arms we could blame unemployment or immigration As well hmm

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 10:21:42

Where do you think the current fashion for females to remove all of their pubic hair has come from then socknicking?

30 years ago taking it all off was very unusual - now in young women and girls it is very common.

Where do you think this change in fashion has come from?

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 10:34:15

I just hate the idea that girls are still being fed the idea by the media, the fashion industry and so on that women's bodies are unacceptable and have to be changed. And I do everything I can to teach my own dd that her body is how nature intended women's bodies to be and to try not to bow to commercial and societal pressures to change it.

And the removing of pubic hair is deeply problematic. It does- whatever anyone says- stem from a pornographic sensibility. And a distlincly dodgy one at that. I know people say it's more hygienic - but if that was the case, why remove it all? And how come people managed to be perfectly clean up to about 10/15 years ago while still having pubic hair?

so, sorry to hijack,
what do i say to my dd?
"you shouldnt shave, it will itch when it grows back"
i think she just got carried away after shaving her legs.
i have expressed surprise that she did

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 10:41:04

Well I guess that I am trying to teach my DDs that their body is perfectily normal and does not have to be changed, however if she wishes to trim/shave/die her pubic hair pink then that is her choice.

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 11:05:07

The thing is where it comes from is irrelivant and FYI perhaps in your world it was unusual 30 years ago but it wasn't unusual amonst my friends.the petinant issue is that the op asked for advice regarding her own daughter who she belives has shaved she didn't ask for a shaving and it's links to pornorgraphy debate in essance we are talking about a 14 yo child I'm not sure that warrents getting hysterical about pornography and how men view women, after all she's 14 no men should be viewing her in enough detail to see if she's shaved or not

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 11:12:27

Hysterical? hmm

And the OP did ask what she should do- which seems to me to be inviting a broader debate. Because she wants to talk to her dd about this subject.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:14:50

Of course it is relevant where a fashion comes from confused
Teens working a porn aesthetic is not something to shrug your shoulders at.

And on a different note - you think 14 YO girls aren't ever sexually active? HAHAHAHAHAHA They were in my day, furry muffs and all.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 11:16:39

Porn aesthetic !!! That is crazy !! OMG I had never seen porn when I shaved it just looked and felt better to me. Women/girls do have a mind of their own you know

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:18:21

Why do you think the fashion has changed in the last 30 years then, imnot?

What other reason can you give for the fashion in pubes for young females going from loads to none?

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 11:19:24

What made you think of shaving it in the first place? Why do you think it's become common place at the same time as porn has become mainstream? Coincidence?

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:22:16

It can't be the case that in the last 30 years, it has gone from a handful of females removing all their pubes, to most of them, because something mysterious has happened to make them all think independently that it feels nicer?

And this time period coincides with the hairless look being prevalent in porn and porn becoming much more freely available?

Hmm that is such a coincidence.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 11:23:02

I can only speak of 20ish years ago when I was 14 but none of my friends had loads !!It was an all girls school so no boy pressure and we were level headed, intelligent girls. Has it really changed ??

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:23:24

Incidentally I don't even understand how you can take all your pubes off with a razor.

Can anyone enlighten me. How do you get the ones sneaking around the inside of the labia, and the ones underneath and so on.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 11:24:30

Now that would be too much information Sardine blush

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:24:36

You are telling me that at your school 20 years ago, your classmates all removed all of their pubic hair.

I am a similar age to you and bikini line was what got shaved.

Strange.

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 11:25:00

And this hygiene nonsense. Have women collectiveh lost the ability to wash?

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:26:52

Oh haven't you heard?
Women are stinky.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 11:27:01

Not everyone of course !! But some did, some trimmed and some were yettis !! Do not think the ones that did were all aspiring porn stars !! Although Seeker my Midwife did mention it when giving birth about being shaven more hygienic for birth but maybe that just her opinion ??

lastnerve Wed 04-Jul-12 11:31:19

I shave mainly for hygiene ,

I wash,

but cutting blood clots out of a matted bush is not fun with a very heavy periods.

And at the risk of being offensive (tmi) I trained as a beauty therapist in my teens and the er thicker women often smelled more, I wonder how possible it is to keep such a dense area clean in a proper way.

To clarify I'm not talking about a moderate level of pubic hair I'm talking very thick , overgrown hair that must be very hard to properly clean.

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 11:32:34

"Not everyone of course !! But some did, some trimmed and some were yettis"

So women who don't remove the pubic hair are yetis? And you think it's OK to think and say that?

I think you have just proved my point for me!

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 11:34:02

I think I ought to start shaving my head. My head gets really sweaty when exercise- it would be so much more hygienic to just get rid of all the hair.

AliceInSandwichLand Wed 04-Jul-12 11:34:36

I think it's very likely that the change in fashion originated with porn. However, when something is normal within a generation, which drastic pubic hair removal certainly is for modern teenagers (my DDs are 17 and 14, and I have had many conversations with them about this!), it's likely that many girls are just doing what everyone else does rather than necessarily buying into the wider context. I think it's well worth discussing the wider context with them, but no need to panic just because they are conforming to the norm - those of us who were teens in the late 70s and early 80s wore some pretty strange things in the name of fitting in with everyone else, after all. Personally my nether regions are much as nature intended, and my 17 year old regards this with the same attitude of slight distaste that she does my refusal to dye my greying hair. I suppose she has as much right to her opinion as I do to mine!

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:35:28

It's nothing to do with aspiring porn stars.
It is to do with the current fashion amongst girls and young women to be based on a porn-star aesthetic.

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 11:37:30

I have no delusions regarding sexual activity not sure where you got that from I was pointing out that she's 14 thus a child and men (male over the age of 18) shouldn't be seeing her up close and personal. If that's going on with any 14 yo it's a child protection issue and a criminal matter not normal behaviour. To view a child as a sexual object to adults and using porn to justify this provides an inappropreate starting point and excuses bad behaviour.it's the same as blaiming makeup or deodrant when a child uses them on porn
Dd has shaved pubes how do I deal with this does not equal let's go man or porn bashing

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 11:37:38

Oh come on do you think it is acceptable to be at the beach/swimming pool and see someone with their pubes hanging out the side !!

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 11:38:59

What do you mean "acceptable"?

And anyway this thread isn't about trimming the sides, it's about shaving the lot.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:39:08

confused

imnotmymum this thread is about the removal of all pubic hair.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 11:39:50

socknickingpixie your post makes no sense to me whatsoever.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 11:40:52

It is I am sorry but I cannot believe women shave to look like a porn star. Obviously some may, some not.

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 11:41:33

By the way sardine I loved your 9.30 post top advice

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 11:52:48

"It is I am sorry but I cannot believe women shave to look like a porn star. Obviously some may, some not."

They don't. It's more complicated than that. What has happened is that the porn star look has become accepted in mainstream society as what women look like. That's what's meant by being taken over by a porn star aesthetic.

There is also the little issue that pubic hair is a sign of sexual maturity, and removing it makes women's genitals look more like prepubescent girl's............

catus Wed 04-Jul-12 12:00:10

I think a 14yo removing all her pubic hair as a matter of course, and doing it routinely is a bit sad. If I had a DD and she decided to do it, I would be a bit worried about her, and I would have a chat about what it means to be a woman.
It doesn't mean young girls who do it are aspiring porn stars at all, I'm sure it doesn't stop them being independent, and bright, and anything else, but shaving it all off at 14 would worry me.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 12:08:43

Well that shut me up grin

Thanks socknicking

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 12:13:24

Sorry I think it's a combo of bad spelling ect. The op has no knowledge of how much dd has shaved off and has no idea as to why as she hasent asked her.bringing a sexual or pornographic element into it in relation to a child IMHO is a bit clutching at straws she's 14 it shouldn't matter why unless there are concerns regarding her own activity op states she has none.

Fwiw I activly hate compleatly shaving my bits I don't get why some men prefer it, I think it's akin to infantizing (if that's a real word) and making grown adults childlike the last person I slept with was totally shaven it put me right off.I do trim and shave a bit because I prefer to not have pubes above a scar I have or exposed outside swimwear.one of my adult dd does compleatly shave because she prefers this,it's totally up to her and has been since she was old enough to be responsable for her own body

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 12:15:54

Apparently men may do it to look bigger ...

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 12:16:58

And on reflection I think our views on it are fairly simmerler we just went round the houses a bit grin

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 12:17:46

I'mnotmymum if that's true it didn't work

As I said my DD1 has been having it all waxed off since about 14, it is not sad or worrying.

I have always found pubic hair disgusting and I have shaved/had it waxed from a young age. I'm a child of the big bush 70s and was no way influenced by porn.

I think the fact that the look came from porn is pretty irrelevant considering it is now a mainstream idea.

There are those who are going to have been influenced by porn and there are those who will have had their own influences. To me the issue without hair removal being linked to porn just seems like another excuse for feminism to bash women.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 12:22:53

HaHa Sock.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Wed 04-Jul-12 13:25:52

Surely a 14yo has better things to do with her time and money than piss about in a salon getting waxed?

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 13:37:06

Mind you, so has a 35 year old woman.............

We have someone come to our home, which I pay for and its about 10 minutes out of her life.

I think its good she does this, its got her into good habits.

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 14:06:50

"good habits"?

dear God in heaven!

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 14:16:26

Also confused @ "good habits"

The fact you find pubic hair "disgusting" hasn't skewed your judgement on this at all, has it? I think most people in the UK would find the idea of taking a 14 year od girl to have all her pubic hair waxed off pretty unpleasant.

Personally I hope that my DDs, when they are older, don't get any messages about how their pubic hair is disgusting and they must submit to time consuming, money consuming and often extraordinarily painful procedures to conform to the current fashion for women to have abnormal hairless bodies AKA the porn aesthetic.

I suspect they will succumb as they are normal girls but bloody hell I won't be taking them to get all their pubes torn out at 14.

catus Wed 04-Jul-12 14:18:33

I must say I'm a bit surprised by this thread. I'm in my thirties, so not that old, but I feel very naive now. I had no idea a large number of young girls barely out of childhood were taking all their pubic hair off.
Also, Ruby, your "good habits" shocked me a little. You said you find pubic hair disgusting and I struggled to understand but I thought fair enough, everyone's different. The idea that waxing everything off is a "good habit" is on another level though, because it implies not doing it would be a bad habit. Which it plainly isn't.
Sorry I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just a bit surprised that's all.

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 14:26:39

Good habits for. 14 year old. Hmm

Regular exercise
Sensible eating
Read something every day
Get your homework done before the deadline

Hmmm. Nope. Waxing your lubes isn't up there!

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 14:27:08

Or even your pubes!

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 14:38:16

RFN, you have clearly over-facilitated (or should I say brainwashed) your dd into removing her "disgusting" pubic hair

You pay for someone to come to the house to "get her into good habits" in the same manner you might get a ratcatcher in.

That's rather fucked up

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 14:38:22

i find it disgusting when its blocking up the plug hole, is that ok? smile

defineme Wed 04-Jul-12 14:38:55

My cousins are 17 and 19 and they are pleased that it's cool to wear surf shorts and a bikini top swimming because they can't be bothered with bikini line shaving. So no not all teens shave everything off.
I couldn't give a stuff if women have bikini line hair on show at the pool and am shocked that anyone should care...do you really look that close?
Just because things have become normalized doesn't mean we have to think they're acceptable.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 14:39:54

how funny that the OP never came back

not verbally anyway

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 14:51:03

shes at the orthadontist

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 14:52:52

since 9am yesterday ? grin

BonnieBumble Wed 04-Jul-12 14:56:22

RubyFakeNails.

With your "good habits" and your username I'm building up a mental image of the comings and goings of your household.

Has the St Tropez lady been yet? wink

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 15:02:20

Nowt wrong with looking after yourself Ruby is there and not for my man but for myself and for girls to feel good about themselves. However it is personal choice.

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 15:23:27

anyfucker possibly, my last husband went out for a pack of fags i didnt see him again ever. wink

MarysBeard Wed 04-Jul-12 15:38:23

I shaved my eyebrows off when I was about 13, with my mum's Ladyshave.

Rapid lesson learned.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 15:39:14

sock, that is erm, shocking shock

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 15:39:59

and your exH was up to no good, presumably?

case in point wink

Socknickingpixie Wed 04-Jul-12 15:55:44

i expect so but it took me a few days to notice. but then again i didnt really like him that much grin

perhaps shes up to no good with the ortadontist that would explain the lenght of time there, also perhaps it involves 50 shades of toothpaste and a few coloured bands

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 16:06:53

grin

Fuck me, I go out for a bit and come back to this.

Yes, I do find pubic hair disgusting, that is my personal choice. It makes me feel unclean, smelly, I have extremely heavy periods in the first few days and idea of being hairy while this is going on is not something I want. I originally used to shave but found waxing to be a much better answer to this.

If you had read my earlier post I said, my dd has never seen me with pubic hair so its what she is used to. But that she first asked me to do this as it had been quite the topic amongst her friends at school. I don't spend my life marching round banging on about disgusting pubic hair, unsurprisingly its not something i ever discussed with my DD1 until she brought it up, I haven't brainwashed my daughter with some anti-pube rhetoric. She asked me about shaving it and I told her try it but I find waxing better.

My dd1 is now 16 and has been quite happy with the system for a number of years. She is a swimmer so she was going to have to do something about it anyway, so I don't really see why her choosing to go the whole hog is such an issue.

Also having someone come to do treatments at your house is very common, the girl I have is part of a team of 12 and they are fully booked up weeks in advance so I don't see why thats an issue.

You've all gone off the bloody deep-end over 'good habits', obviously its better habits to have a regular waxing schedule rather than just taking a razor to yourself will nilly. The more you wax the less you have to it makes sense. I know it is not the 'mn' way for people to want to have treatments and make an effort with themselves but I don't see there is anything wrong with it. To me its the same as going and having your eyebrows threaded which lots of teens do, I don't know why there is such deep attachment to some fanjo hair.

And no Bumble the St Tropez has not crossed the threshold. I work the "I'm so pale I'm blue" look while DD1 is mixed race.

I have once considered a vajazzle.

Should i send in my TOWIE application tout suite?

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 17:42:07

Ruby I so agree and do the vajazzle !!

LynetteScavo Wed 04-Jul-12 17:50:42

I want a vajazzle. Just for myself. (DH would just laugh)

This would so not be an issue for me, just like shaving armpits or legs. And I do the bare minimum down there.

Why I just shared that with the world, I've no idea. confused

Why does someone that swims need to do something about it - since when has a few odd pubes poking out of a swim suit been a problem - or does it slow down the swimmer too much. You need to get pretty close to see such things shock.

The vajazzle was at a charity thingy (I shit you not) but DH was concerned it may do him some kind of injury confused I suggested a penazzle, he fled.

Nigella My dd1 was absolutely shock shock that the school swimming costume she has to wear leaves very little to the imagination nipple wise, if you want to then try and tell her that despite the disdain for pubes amongst her peers she should just embrace la bush, Good luck to you. But be warned, the door slamming will shake the entire house.

Also you can see stray pubes from quite far away, a certain lady on my recent holiday could have done well to remember that or not insisted on wearing itty bitty underwear with her forest sized lady garden

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Wed 04-Jul-12 18:05:05

I do the sides so they're not sticking out. No need for anything else really. I think swimwear is often higher cut than it used to be - last swimmy I bought was a sensible one and even that revealed two little triangles on either side - like little ears.

I'm not blessed with a particulalry luxuriant muff, either.

I find bare pudendas on adults rather odd tbh - like Sphinx cats.

LynetteScavo Wed 04-Jul-12 18:05:50

Nigella, you don't have to get that close! I had a friend at school with "principles" who didn't tame her bush. Was really quite obvious, but she didn't care.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:07:42

It's sad that she's already feeling pressure the change her body for the benefit of men. All her friends will do it and she will believe she can't be 'sexy' if she doesn't.
It hard when there's so much influence telling her that her worth is based on her being a sexual object but you can explain that pubic hair is not unclean, that it is natural and healthy and there for a reason to protect the vulva! It would also help to take the lead yourself and fight against the pressure to remove your own healthy, protective pubic hair.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:08:25

It is not for the benefit of men FFFGGGSSS !angry

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:13:18

Yes it is.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 18:14:21

The no hair on muff look is a porn aesthetic.
The reason for it is so that the person watching the porn can get a "better" view of what's going on.
At the most fundamental level this fashion has come about to please men.

Individual women I'm sure might remove it all because they discovered at 12 that they preferred it or whatever, but at a society level with a majority of girls and young women apparently doing this, the aesthetic they are meeting is the porn aesthetic.

No it isn't Only in your opinion.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:15:55

So we are saying that the 14 year old in question at the beginning of this thread is shaving to please men ! Really ?? You are bonkers. If I lived alone never to have sex again I would still shave

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 18:16:29

rubyfakenails where do you think the current fashion for girls and young women to remove all their pubic hair has come from then? Observe that the fashion has come about at the same time as this look became the norm in porn and porn became much more easily accessible.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 18:17:16

No imnotmymum I am saying that the fashion is a porn aesthetic, and porn is in the vast majority there to please men.

Ok so saying that for the majority idea of total hair removal came form porn.

Now that it is a relatively mainstream thing (am thinking actresses, films, lots of media about it),

1) Why is it such an issue that the original idea was from porn, if those wearing (?) it aren't involved in porn
2) Why does it matter where it came from if it is now a mainstream idea and that is what is influencing women not the origins of the aesthetic

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:19:02

Sardine we will have to agree to disagree I guess as this argument is done for me I think it has nothing to do with porn, you do. thanks

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:19:17

It's to meet the expectations that patriarchy encourages women to look like and change their bodies for. Not an individual man, but a society that expects women to look a certain way that is controlled by men.

Sardine my post about in your opinion was for krumbum

DunkyWhorey Wed 04-Jul-12 18:21:00

I haven't read all the threads but we did this when we were that age - I grew up in Australia - it was more about a "beach" culture than a sex culture or a porn culture or any other culture - not to not offend "boys" on the beach but other girls or anyone or ourselves.

I understand the concern but I'd just leave it personally. You can introduce discussions on this kind of topic without targeting her, at a later date or a date not related to the incident, just flicking through a magazine or whatever, if you have a reasonably "chatty" relationship with her, I'd say.

DunkyWhorey Wed 04-Jul-12 18:21:08

I am 35 by the way

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 18:22:37

It's a measure of how deeply ingrained the influence of porn is on our society when you see women with absolutely destroyed sense of self awareness of what they are actually saying

"pubes are disgusting" means you think your own natural body is a shameful thing if it's in it's natural form

"getting good habits" = getting other women round your gaff to rip the hair out of your 14yo daughter by it's roots so she can "fit in"

grown women getting all giddy about sticking a few sequins on yer muff

wake up, fgs

look at the messages you are internalising, but worst of all, the ones you are passing on to the next generation

if it were up to me we would have a "no more body-abusing amnesty day" where all women just decided to stop messing around with what is natural and fuck what everyone else says

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 18:23:32

A porn aesthetic becoming mainstream has a huge impact on how women are perceived by society, how they perceive themselves and how men are encouraged to perceive them. If a woman looks like the women on a porn movie, then surely she could be expected to behave like one?

Not forgetting the looking like a pre pubescent girl thing.......

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 18:24:41

Rubyfakenails I don't think individual girls are watching porn and deciding to do this (in the main), they do it because it is the fashion.

Ideas like this are very pervasive. Most women remove the hair on their legs and armpits because it is the fashion. We pretty much have to do it even if we don't really want to, a lot of the time.
The idea that from 12, say, girls in the UK are removing leg hair, armpit hair and all pubic hair, as a matter of course.... That thought makes me feel quite ill. The time, the money, the pain, the sheer pointlessness of it all (for most).

And of course the fact that a "shaven haven" as it is so delicately referred to by men is a porn aesthetic, that's where the fashion came from, is just horrible.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:25:59

Are we actually listening to the views of women who say there is no link to porn for them. This is the problem it is obviously us who just do not know our own minds and the brigade comes out to down cry our opinions because we are wrong and corrupting our children.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 18:27:10

Why on earth would people on a beach be offended by a woman in a swimming costume, who underneath it does not have an entirely bare muff?

I guess the point is you can tell in a swimming costume whether a person has pubes or not - so right there is a huge pressure to whip it all off lest you get comments from boys or girls or them whispering about you.

It's just awful.

14yo schoolgirls genitals shouldn't be a subject for judgement by wider society.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 18:27:24

Ruby, why does it matter then that the idea of teenage girls being forced to blow a group of boys one after the other came from porn ?

so the fact such sexual assaults are a growing problem and becoming more "mainstream" (as reported recently) makes it part of our society now, and we should stop examining (and condemning) where it came from ?

like I said, take a moment to think about what you are saying

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:28:00

Ruby, women changing their bodies to appear like porn stars is a negative thing. It contributes to the idea that women
Are sexual objects and that That male sexuality is paramount. The most important aspect of a women is this society is whether she is 'hot' or not and that means women will continue to be treated as second in the workplace, politics etc.
This is so ingrained that women are willing to hurt themselves to achieve this 'hotness'; waxing, heels, plastic surgery etc even though all it does it contribute to sexism and sexual abuse.
I don't blame the women I blame patriarchy but it's fucking depressing that people are teaching their ever younger daughters to alter their bodies and place all their Self worth in their looks.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:28:17

aaarrrggghhh!!! Maybe the girl in question did not like it not because she cared about who looking ! I am now going to pour wine. I know it early but I need one.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 18:30:03

imnotmymum this is not about you it is about society.

If you really believe that in the last 30 years, for no reason at all, most girls in the UK have independentally decided to start removing all their pubes, completely by themselves.... That seems a little unlikely, surely?

It's like saying in teh 80s all teh people who had mullets came up with the idea independentally all by themselves.

That's just not how society works, though.

Greatauntirene Wed 04-Jul-12 18:30:30

Poor DD. She has probably been discussing it with pals.
I was horribly hairy, legs (inc thighs), pubes. No proper advice in those days so shaved pubes initially but suffered horrible itching for what felt like weeks. Then messed with hair remover cream, nightmare, half the time it didn't work fully and left horrible rash on top lip. And didn't know for years that I also had longish hairs on the backs of my thighs, no one told me blush

If you know anything about hair removal give her some advice. Send her to be waxed. Or buy her an electric hair remover. Painful but better than all that shaving, though it doesn't leave hairless skin when I use it, there is usually a few missed and some broken hairs. But nothing is worse than not daring to move in case your shorts/swimsuit rides up a bit.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Wed 04-Jul-12 18:30:37

<boak> @ shaven haven. That was specialist when I was a teen - and in the same revolting genre as "barely legal".

To be fair, Brazilians themselves (the style, rather than the nation) came about as a result of higher and higher cut bikinis. Now we can look for links between this fashion and porn (I'm sure there are some) but really I think it's an aesthetic that developed independently.

Complete depilation though most certainly does have it's roots in porn.

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 18:31:40

"Are we actually listening to the views of women who say there is no link to porn for them. This is the problem it is obviously us who just do not know our own minds and the brigade comes out to down cry our opinions because we are wrong and corrupting our children."

What I am saying that of course there is no link to porn for you or the young girls who are doing this. The fact is that the idea came from porn, and the normalising of pornography is bad for us all as women, and for society at large.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:32:44

It is not about me but others have posted too and it seems to be overlooked. If my shaving has its roots in porn then I am unaware of it.

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 18:33:27

And there is a huge difference between making sure that no hair shows round your bikini bottom and removing all pubic hair. Obviously.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:33:57

Just think it looked silly a little patch

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:34:55

You can be influenced by the effects of porn even if you do not watch it. It has an effect on everything in our society. From magazines, music, tv, film and other humans all around you.
Imnotmymum you are grossly oversimplifying it.

Ok so its that it means porn has an influence on our society and this may in turn influence how women are perceived as a whole?

But aren't things like the influence of porn balanced out by other more positive influences. Female roles have changed quite a bit since say my childhood for example, doesn't that balance it out.

An btw I'm not trying to have a bun fight about it, I'm actually trying to understand the points you're making, because to me they are from a completely alien view.

I still can't understand why there is negativity around wanting to take care of your appearance. I was always told that feminism was about having the right to do whatever you choose and being treated equally regardless of your gender. I can't understand this 'you are being oppressed you are just oo stupid to realise it' mentality.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:37:38

No I believe you are over thinking it frankly.
And that is the point I was trying to make Ruby that we are doing whatever and just do not realise it!

seeker Wed 04-Jul-12 18:38:26

I don't think there is any problem about taking care of your appearance- has anyone said that? Certainly wouldn't have been me!

mirry2 Wed 04-Jul-12 18:40:27

What's a lacey string? Are we talking knickers?

EmmalinaC Wed 04-Jul-12 18:41:10

Just nipping in to say I agree with everything seeker has said, so I won't bother saying it again...

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:44:26

Well as a point I would be more concerned with the appearance of new underwear than shaving. We usually go shopping together so I would know what she bought etc. and if my DDs go alone they show me their wares. The appearance of knickers that I did not know would cause me more concern.

gettingeasier Wed 04-Jul-12 18:45:25

I dont normally say this but...I have skipped to the end of the thread to say OP YANBU.

When I realised my 12yo DD had shaved and then a short time later a thong and plunge bra appeared I felt alarmed and sad

In the "pick your battles" mode I left it and actually I dont think its too significant now

Quick scan of the last few posts and agree its a lot to do with porn not neat and tidiness. Also I gather men do it a lot to make their dicks look bigger ?

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:45:40

It doesn't balance it out because things are still pretty shit for women the fight has not been won. We are still paid less, huge amounts of women are still raped by men who never get convicted, sexually assaulted on the streets everyday, no real power in politics and so much more.

Removing your pubic hair is not taking care of yourself, it is hurting yourself.
Feminism is about freedom for women but we live in society where social pressures mean we do not have that freedom. Growing up thinking your looks are paramount and that you need to alter your body to make it 'sexy' means we do not have freedom because we are indoctrinated into hating our bodies and focusing on how we look. And if women are focusing on their looks then they are spending less time fighting for real equality which that would threaten patriarchy...

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:48:42

Krumbum
"Removing your pubic hair is not taking care of yourself, it is hurting yourself." Really?? You believe this ?? Looks are not paramount but I do like to look after myself and feel better groomed and I am well respected in my field and paid equally. Really I believe it is this attitude that harms women more

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:52:02

How does what i am saying harm women?
Ofc it is hurting yourself! I mean physically ripping hair from your body hurts! And for no benefit!
Your lucky in your job (just a small aspect of life) and that's great, but most women are not. And I care about all of us.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:54:50

But it does not hurt !! I am not ripping myself to shreds to pleas a man !! FFS!! I care about all women and have three DDs but they need to believe in themselves not men other women but themselves.

women are willing to hurt themselves to achieve this 'hotness'; waxing, heels, plastic surgery etc even though all it does it contribute to sexism and sexual abuse

if it were up to me we would have a "no more body-abusing amnesty day" where all women just decided to stop messing around with what is natural and fuck what everyone else says

and pretty much everything is Krumbum is saying is making me feel as if I am doing something wrong by wanting to take care of my appearance. To me taking care of your image is healthy and good for you. Half the time I read if you aren't taking care of yourself you are depressed and now its if you are you're oppressed.

And this stuff about the patriarchy and the war not being won, I don't personally feel this way, the majority of my friends and relatives don't feel this way. Obviously its not great if some women feel oppressed but surely I'm not expected to start getting fat, not wearing make-up and growing out my fanjo for their feelings?

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:58:42

I agree Ruby as I posted I would still do all the things I do if the world imploded and no men left alive or women for that matter in fact anything !!!!

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 18:59:21

What? Have you read anything anyone has written?
Obviously they do but we don't live in a society that allows that, they do not have the same freedoms as men.
Waxing does hurt, you may have numbed yourself from excessive waxing but for most people it bloody hurts. And a lot of women genuinely do rip themselves to shreads for the benefit of men! Through plastic surgery,

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:00:37

It's not up for debate or about you feeling like you are oppressed, you ARE oppressed. Women

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:00:38

biscuit

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:04:49

Id agree it's a sign that your depressed if you stop washing, getting up, brushing your hair and teeth. But not 'prettyfying' is not a bad thing. Are all men all depressed cos they don't wax their legs and wear makeup?
There is a wealth of evidence that sexism still effects women throughout their lives. Where is your evidence that it doesn't?

Waxing isn't exactly real pain, its the same as plucking your eyebrows or running. Equating it to doing harm is ridiculous. Periods hurt and they're about as natural as it can get.

AnyFucker Line-Ups (as they are know) is a behaviour, the 'shaven maven' look is an aesthetic. When I was younger tattoos were loosely linked to sailors but mainly to criminals, the rise of tattoos wasn't blamed for say a rise in crime? How do we know that certain things are linked. Theres a lot more graphic 'sex' in films and on tv now then when I was younger, and I don't think this is linked to porn but surely has more of an influence on people.

I watch porn, with my DH, not alone but still I watch it. But isn't it up to the individual to recognise that porn is an extreme version of sex. I don't engage in what I would call hardcore sex with my DH even though I watch porn, why is there less individual responsibility around this than say gaming.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:06:58

I don't Get why you'd give me a biscuit for caring about women and thinking it is important we fight patriarchy lol confused

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:09:08

Periods are natural and just happen. Waxing is a person self harming so that they fit in with the expectations on women. When you actually think about it it is crazy.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:09:54

Oh Krum it is important to "fight" but really listen to others as well.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:11:31

I am listening. And answering accordingly, just like you are. What have I ignored?

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:14:18

For gods sake leave the girl alone. Don't even bring it up. You've no need to AT ALL. Why the hell does it need a discussion confused she's a teenager growing into a young woman.

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:15:17

Waxing is self harming? Oh my word. Give your head a good wobble.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:16:05

That some have posted that their preferences for shaving has not come from a desire to please a man. Waxing is not self harming Krum really do think about what you saying.

NovackNGood Wed 04-Jul-12 19:16:06

If you shave your legs or armpits then you can't comment on anyone shaving any other part of their anatomy.

But Krumbum most men shave their faces? Wear deodrant, wear aftershave, many use things like gel or hair products. How is that different? Why is brushing your hair not prettifying? We now wash a lot more frequently than we did in say Tudor times, or even my childhood, why is this not considered prettifying as its not natural? What about getting haircuts, wearing deodrant, washing our clothes? Wearing clothes for their aesthetic value? Contact lenses? Cleansers/Moisturisers? All these things could be included under prettifying.

I didn't say women aren't oppressed at all, I said I don't feel that way and I don't know anyone who does. To me, I feel I've lived lots of what I thought were feminist ideals. I've voted, I've used contraception, I've slept with as many men as I wanted. I haven't taken my DH's name, I've never felt/been unable to do something because I'm a woman, I've typically earned more than the men I've worked with and now have my own business which employs only women, I've never had to do full-time childcare and I've led the life I wanted to. But now because I wax my fanjo and take time on how I look I am oppressed and aiding in the oppression of other women?

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:18:37

This argument went round and round in an old topic of mine

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:20:30

And I guess it will ... It depends on the woman I guess I once posted on a thread not realizing what some women go through. I guess I do whatever I want. Some women do "please" a man.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 19:25:13

Waxing isn't "real pain"?

Eh?

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:25:42

I was explaining why I believe it is not a choice you just made for yourself and the reasons for that.
Yes men are socialised about their appearance too but not to the extent women are and not things that lead to them hurting and limiting themselves, this is why it is more problematic.
Yes things are in some ways much better than they were for women but that doesn't mean that patriarchy no longer exists.

DunkyWhorey Wed 04-Jul-12 19:28:26

Regarding my beach comment - I dont think it was derived from porn in those days. There was no "internet" porn (there was no internet!) and the porn that was about was of the magazine kind or the "licenced" video kind (apart from black market stuff I guess) and trust me all the ones I saw had plenty of pubes. And it was before photoshopping and airbrushing and before many people (except perhaps Dolly Parton) had boob implants - so the boobs were "real", they weren't uplifted, the models tended to put their hands behind their heads in a come hither pose to make their nipples point to the sky in those days, but the boobs had veins, there was little or no fake tan as we know it although I think some had some kind of body makeup, there was no leg hair or underarm hair but there was definitely pubic hair - sometimes a little tidied up no doubt but there was definitely some proper bush there.

I also remember seeing lingerie catalogues where there was no bush poking out the side but you coud see the shadow of bush under some sheer ish type lacy undies.

Yet the culture on the "beach" was to have none poking out the side of the swimsuit, and no underarm or leg hair. Not to have it all off. It was a beach thing, a binkini-friendly thing as opposed to a sex thing or a porn thing (porn being pubic-hairy!)

Proper buff surfer type dudes tended to have bald chests and backs. So it wasn't confined to women. If there was a usually greek bloke with masses of dark hair on his back, he was a subject of revulsion far more than a girl with a couple of danglers would have been. Tampon strings were also a nono!

Nothing to do with porn, I'm convinced of it. Not in rural/coastal Australia in the early 80's, with no internet, no airbrushing, and the porn magazines that were about sporting some fairly full bushes. No. I know its different today, and in particular the "all off" thing but just saying...

NovackNGood Wed 04-Jul-12 19:28:39

Krumbrum you seem to be very paranoid and very into conspiracy theories. Patriarchy my ass.

Cuckoo

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:29:43

Krumbum you do know that you're actually degrading women with your talk. It's ridiculous.

If you think women are oppressed, than apply your logic to men and you'll realise they must be too.

Also, if we do it for men and to suit norms, how come some lesbian women prefer to whip it off to then grin

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:29:46

Krum I do not know what to say anymore. My personal grooming does not hurt. I make all my decisions myself and am quite offended that you think that I have not made my own choices in life but have just bowed down to men.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:31:43

Haha. Feminism is not a conspiracy theory. Patriarchy is very real and all around us. Also There's loads of evidence for it!

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:32:40

In your world Krum! In your World !! And I feel sorry for you thanks

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:33:04

Krumbum no-one said feminism is a conspiracy. They're saying the clap trap you're spouting, which isn't feminism, is conspiracy.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:33:24

How am I degrading women?
And I'll say it again; it's not individual men it's societal norms, so ofc lesbians are affected.

imnotmymum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:34:18

You are degrading women by saying that we do not know our own minds !!

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:35:27

Yes it is feminism.
What's the conspiracy?

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:37:06

I'm saying that our minds are influenced by socialisation.
But you can make a choice to fight it.
That's not degrading it's how society works.

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:37:21

My lesbian friend chooses to act and dress like a man, but she still shaves her pubes because she likes the feel grin what do you think about that Krumbum?

Like imnotmymum said, you're saying we don't know our own minds and don't have influence in our own decisions. Your comments are de-powering women. Quite the opposite of what you're supposed to be doing as a feminist I would have thought.

NovackNGood Wed 04-Jul-12 19:37:33

Krumbrum you really do need to seek some help or perhaps stick to the pretend radfems/conspiracy theorists on the feminism section on here. Cuckoo. Weird how strange men sit and try to tell you at times that the moon landing were faked and then you meet the krumbums who think the partiarchy run the world. So you mean it's not the Rothschild's or the Getty's

Cuckoo

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:38:12

Why do so many women wear make up, wax etc if it isn't because of socialisation? Coincidence?

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 19:38:39

once the biscuit is dealt, it's time for me to go

this thread illustrates to me the extreme difference between "I'm alright Jack" mentaility and radical (meaning the "roots of how things come about in a male-led society not extreme) feminism

because some women think they are empowered by their choices and equal pay is sorted, the feminism "fight" is over

and still, rape prosecutions run at 6%

yep, it's definitely over, we can hang up our balconette bras, ladies and give up the good fight

indeed

have a biscuit yourself while you read the report about the 14yo boy who got no punishment for raping a 5yo girl because he "was influenced by porn and his hormones got the better of him"

we can spend our time getting vajazzled instead of thinking about that, can't we ?

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:39:00

'fight it' how exactly? By not shaving? So I should make myself feel uncomfortable to FIGHT THE SYSTEM. Bollocks. I think I'll stay bald as the day as I was born because that's how i like it.

SecretPlace Wed 04-Jul-12 19:40:30

Anyfucker I find your comment insulting.

Shaving ones pubes is in no way contributing to rape. Feminism doesn't stop rape.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:40:32

Nope I'm saying this is how it is and it is important that you make a choice to fight it.
Patriarchy and capitalism work hand in hand so...

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 19:41:10

it's great we get the "choice" to rip out our pubes by the roots

I expect the "choicey" women on here think prostitution is a "choice" too

lovely

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:43:26

What do you think the PURPOSE of feminism is then secretplace?
It is to bring equality to women and a HUGE part of that is freedom from rape, one of the main aims of feminism is to stop sexual abuse!!

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 19:43:54

SP, you can choose to argue about the "choice" to rip your pubes out by the roots

like the women on this thread, who think feminism has done all it can because they know some women who have good jobs and "choose" to have shaven havens

I'll look a bit wider than that, if its all the same to you

NovackNGood Wed 04-Jul-12 19:45:06

Some woman do choose prostitution and some don't. Choosing to depilate or not has got nothing to do with prostitution or rape convictions.

You really are deluded and stuck in a conspiracy theory world if you think there are linked but then tenuous links re what your theories are all about cause after all the world is out to get you. The patriarchy is after you. NOT

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:46:29

You have again misunderstood. An individual woman shaving her pubes does not cobtribute to her getting raped (that would be victim blaming)
But a society where women alter their bodies to look like porn stars contributes to the rape culture where men see women as sexual toys. That's not blaming the women it's blaming the societal pressure.

NovackNGood Wed 04-Jul-12 19:48:44

Yawn.... Your nonsense points are quick laughable Krumbrum.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:49:17

So you can't see any issue with the fact that huge amounts of women are forced into prostitution and raped. That's just 'how it is' you can't look any deeper at it and work out why this problem only affects women and so many of them? Well it must just be 'choice'. THINK, at least a little!

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:51:06

Is it easier to pretend that sexism doesn't happen? Is that why some of you do it? Just keep ya head down and try and pretend everything's ok?

But the same thing could be said about gaming ad the boy who raped a 5 year old. Violent games have been used as a defence in murder cases. If someone then copies an aesthetic from the gaming world does that mean they are also likely to commit murder?

Also does feminism recognise women are never going to be full equal to men?

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:55:54

What? Well the aim is for women to have equal rights, opportunities and freedoms.

Women and men will never be fully equal surely that is glaringly obvious

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 19:57:32

wow a lot of posts

dunkey

"Yet the culture on the "beach" was to have none poking out the side of the swimsuit, and no underarm or leg hair. Not to have it all off."

So you are talking about something completely different then.

NovackNGood Wed 04-Jul-12 19:58:38

Many women do choose to work in brothels or sell themselves as escorts. Spain is full of legal brothels as well as some illegal ones. The illegal will always happen no matter what. Men will get mugged and so will woman. Crime happens. Some crimes are notoriously difficult to prosecute. You've no chance of getting any property that is burgled from you back again. That's the nature of crime.

There is not a global patriarchy contolling woman to allow crime to happen to them. The rapist no doubt does not give too hoots if he encounters pubes or no pubes. HE'S a RAPIST AND WOULD DO IT ANYWAY.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 19:58:47

Well they won't ever be biologically the same no but they can still have the same freedoms.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 19:59:28

Are people really saying that it does not hurt to have all of your pubic hair waxed off?

For all but a tiny minority of people with weird nerve endings, that is simply untrue.

As long as women are the ones to carry the child through pregnancy, give birth, experience the toll that pregnancy and birth take emotionally and physically and then be attached to the child because of breastfeeding. While men can technically impregnate a women and have no physical involvement from that point men and women will never be equal.

Which also raise the question that breastfeeding is something the patriarchy have pushed to further oppress women, but why is that never mentioned. Of thats right because the real oppression comes from hair removal.

ifancyashandy Wed 04-Jul-12 20:04:18

Krumbum & AnyFucker have made the points far more eloquently than I could have done. Bravo.

I'm baffled as to why men & women will never be equal..?

And some posters would do well to look up the concept of hegemony.

LeBFG Wed 04-Jul-12 20:13:51

My DH avoids shaving every day (does it more like just before a special event/blue moon) because it hurts

When I shave legs/pits - it hurts after with red spots and ingrowing hairs/hairs that get infected. It's bloody awful. Shaving minge is worse.

WHY DO WE DO THIS?

Waxing - tried it and it's FUCK OFF PAINFUL

WHY would a 14 year old girl do this?

I can only think back to a TV programme with a load of teenage girls and boys. They were presented with images of women with different sorts of breasts (some natural, others clearly enhanced). They were asked to select the breasts which corresponded to 'normal'. They all pointed at the ginormous knockers and the girls added that they wanted breasts just like them. What is wrong with the world, heh?

I thought all MNers were dead against sexualisation of youngsters. This thread has been an eye-opener <creeps back to stone-age>

I don't need to look up hegemony, I'm not a total idiot.

But isn't (cultural) hegemony typically to do with economic groups though, yes we can take a sort of post-modern view and start saying all our social constructs are false and you know why is a woman a woman or a chair a chair. But that tends to be a completely circular discussion because if you remove all our presumed knowledge and what we currently take as society you end up in a state completely removed from reality.

What are you going to do kill all the men? Well then we're all going to die out, yes there are a lot of social rules which seem to suit certain groups, but I would say predominantly this is money orientated and a result general consensus among the public over certain choices. You can say right the idea of childhood is complete created so lets do away with that because that is a social construct in a way but people would be in uproar.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 20:17:03

"Which also raise the question that breastfeeding is something the patriarchy have pushed to further oppress women, but why is that never mentioned."

It is mentioned confused

Almost always dismissed, but certainly mentioned.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 20:17:19

so you are saying women will never be equal because they have babies ?

well, while we live in a male-dominated society of course that is true

if we question that (and other ways in which society is essentially man-pleasing) instead of distracting ourselves prettiily with waxes and sequins'n'shit then maybe we have a chance to put it

the current concept of female beauty=massively distracting, which suits a male dominated-society very well indeed

distract and divide, and pretend there is no agenda behind that

it's a great tactic

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 20:17:31

I don't think the point has been heard that - although you shavers individually might not have been pressurised by individual men or personal exposure to porn - fashions ^don't just pouff into the world fully formed. They always comes from bloody somewhere.

So the sudden adoption of the New Look silhouette in the Fifties was generated by the post-war economic need to get women out of their overalls and back into the home.

The opposite is true of 1920s flapper dresses post WW1.

And the reason that, in the space of ten years, women went from tidying to full (painful) depilation of their pubes was the explosion of the porn industry, which required full visibility of penetration, and which gave porn users a new 'normality', which they passed on osmotically to their groups.

These things seep through culture. There's no government order or campaign, but the tide turns, and grows, and becomes impossible to resist.

This might make you people who shave feel like sheep. I'm sorry.

But to deny that social pressures exist is to go against literally everything we know about how societies work; knowledge which is not disputed at any point in the political spectrum.

Other messages were also attached to that new, porn-borne normality - messages which many women, when they look them in the eye, think are pretty disempowering. That's why the OP is right to - at the very least - gently question her child's (note) choices, and let her know that fashion always has a meaning.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 20:17:57

Kill all the men?

Where on earth did that come from confused

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 20:18:07

a chance to challenge it

NovackNGood Wed 04-Jul-12 20:21:15

The only sheep seem to be the radfems but shouldn't you all be in your new pen instead of still hijacking every thread you can on every board?

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 20:22:15

Ah 19.38 - 20.21 = lots more fem posts.
Still.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 20:23:16

Dismay at the idea of girls just past puberty feeling they need to remove all their pubic hair to conform is a fairly normal reaction I'd have thought. Nothing radical about it.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 20:24:19

that's a nice line in insults you have there, Novack

enjoying yourself are you ?

all the shit on FWR board must have had you creaming your keks smile

and here you have another chance to cream them again

what a gift for you (how I wish everyone could see that)

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 20:25:34

I agree.
It also assumes that - like legs have long been - their vulvas are now public property to be judged and ogled, if only in theory.

Girls pass these messages amongst themselves, as handmaidens.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 20:32:17

"their vulvas are now public property to be judged and ogled, if only in theory. "

Not always just in theory though.
just remembered that in one of my old jobs the blokes would try to guess whether a female colleague took it all off or not based on the outline of her clothing.
not to their faces obviously.

OK Sardine sorry if its mentioned but (bearing in mind I don't frequent the feminist boards) I have never ever seen it mentioned when people post about BF. I've never seen anyone say that they are succumbing to the patriarchy or anything remotely related to feminism.

The thing about killing the men is an extreme point but I'm just trying to say there are always going to be differences between men and women and this radicalised view of feminism to me doesn't seem to have any real solutions to these problems. You can't take away the men.

Anyfucker a male dominated society is irrelevant in regards to our reproductive system. We procreate the way we do. Men and women will never be the same until men have to be pregnant and give birth and experience the physical and emotional toll that takes. I don't think thats a ridiculous or extreme point at all, its a very obvious one.

Also Lindsay I've never said there isn't social pressure, that was effectively my original post, that the pressure on my DD1 to look a certain way comes from her friends and that while the aesthetics may be distantly related to porn, for her the pressure comes from her friends. My main issue has been with the idea that if you remove your pubic hair you are against women, encouraging porn, not making your own choices, disturbed etc etc I believe its my right to choose because I personally wasn't influenced by porn, I am much too old.

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 20:34:23

There was a thing about it in france a year or so ago, ruby, and president sarkozy said of his new baby that his wife wasn't BF as it was oppressive (or something). There was also a book with it in, again in france.
Sarkozy's comments made some of the papers over here.

Ok I'm just saying its not something I've ever encountered in the press it was just something I was thinking about in regards to pregnancy and how that is seen in relation to feminism. As i think you may have gauged I'm not exactly up to date on the latest feminist reading.

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 20:40:29

Ruby, youmiss my point

the contribution of women as being the ones able to bear children, and nurture them isn't seen as equal

but it could be

couldn't it ?

if we weren't bending over backwards doing stupid stuff, we could better work on it

instead, we spend time mutilating ourselves to conform to a male-led society's idea of what we should like

stupid ain't it

and yet some women will defend their "right" to do that to the death

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 20:44:36

Ruby - if you know that both you and your daughter are subject to invidious social pressure, why don't you challenge?

Yes but I would say that is a result of us living in a capitalist society where a contribution is measured by the wealth it garners. That is is unfortunate that women are the ones who have to have the children (I certainly would have preferred DH to do this) but it is simply the fact that childrearing is not financially productive that it is not valued because that is the primary value of our society.

Also I don't know why you have to be so personally insulting about everything, trying to trivialise my opinions. I don't sit here and say that because I don't agree with your points you don't know what you are talking about because you spent too long plaiting your unshaven fanny hair.

lastnerve Wed 04-Jul-12 20:48:44

Hmmm I wonder how many , hand on heart would not be slightly 'Eurgh' at a growler emerging from a high leg swimsuit?

SardineQueen Wed 04-Jul-12 20:50:28

That was in case you were interested ruby! There is lots on google and there were some threads on here too I think. About the BF idea.

lastnerve Wed 04-Jul-12 20:51:18

An also I noticed this being mentioned about rising sexual assaults now, forget the poster.

I would be very suspect if that was actually true as 'back in the day' SA was seen as very normal and 'you should be flattered' 'whats wrong are you a lesbian?'

at least today people actually know its wrong.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 20:55:33

Patriarchy and capitalism work as one. Divide and rule.

Lindsay Because I think that we are socially pressured into everything and more importantly I quite enjoy it.

In regards to the social pressure about pubic hair, I don't think I experienced that it was through my own personal disgust I behaved as I did and continue to. With my dd, its her choice. Social pressure is a reality, if she wants to shave it off rather than feel uncomfortable then I'm not going to make her suffer to challenge social pressure, especially not when its something I partake in.

In regards to everything else, I think we are socially pressurised into everything. Female body image is not a priority for me. I prioritise the consumption of meat, animal products, sugar, high fructose corn syrup etc- I live a mainly vegan lifestyle/healthy lifestyle and encourage my dcs to, I object to the idea of motherhood being the norm and therefore I do it my way and have posted openly about this on mn. I object to cruelty to animals and reflect this through my product and lifestyle choices. I object to the way our society institutionalises racism, particularly as my dh is black and I'm jewish so I protest and I take action to challenge this.

Women, porn, body image is not a priority to me. I enjoy make-up, I have a fashion degree and work in the fashion industry, I don't want to be fat and have bad teeth and skin and hair because its unhealthy so the social pressures fit with my lifestyle and therefore aren't an issue for me.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 20:57:50

So you care about animals and are against racism. But sexism, that's fine, even though it affects more people in horrible ways. Nice.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 20:59:11

Oh yeah cos feminism = being ill and unhealthy confused

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:02:26

But - if you agree that these things are governed by social mores - it's not 'choice', is it, in any meaningful sense that could apply to a 14 year old?

And if it's all about 'choice', why do any of us bother to stop them taking drugs, or going out with 25 year olds, etc etc.

'Choice', at 14, should be analysed and explained by you - because she hasn't yet got the tools. And possibly will never gain them, if you don't step up to the plate.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:05:32

'the social pressures fit with my lifestyle and therefore aren't an issue for me'

But for your daughter? And how will she be able to resist social pressures which don't happen to coincide with healthy-eating messages, unless you point them out for what they are, and ensure that - as far as possible - it really is her fully informed choice. Because any other kind of choice isn't worth the Closer-magazine paper it's written on.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:10:28

Also, I don't think having bad teeth and skin and hair is actually unhealthy. It's unattractive, and doesn't lead to cosmetics sales. Therefore the 'it's unhealthy and is about self-respect' message is one that women's mags have to put out, because they rely - we all know this, but some of us can't bear to admit it - entirely on advertising to stay afloat. They will literally say whatever their core advertisers want them to, and everything in Grazia that isn't Lucy Mangan is grist to that mill.

I don't think there is anything wrong in saying I care more about racism and animal cruelty, those are my causes. I never feel I've experienced sexism directly and the parts I'm being told I experience are things I actually enjoy and take pleasure in.

Why am i going to get het up about treatments and make up and dressing 'sexily' when thats something I have great fun doing? I don't have fun eating an animal corpse and i believe eating animals is fundamentally unhealthy, I don't have fun being unhealthy. I don't have fun hearing my DH insulted or my own race discriminated against. Why am i going to take issue with something I enjoy?

Lindsay I don't exactly understand your post so I'm going to try and answer what I think you're saying.

I said there is social pressure, but not that we are forced. I think at 14 you can make decisions and choices. My dd chooses not to say be involved in criminality or she chooses to study hard even though in her school this goes against the norm. I strongly encourage my children to self-regulate. They choose their own bedtimes, they choose what they eat, the only rules I can think of in our house are to do with treating each other respectfully, listening, tidying up after yourself (which links with respect).

I did say that I didn't make her do this, she came and asked about it, explained why and I said if thats what you want to do then fine. As I don't believe it puts her in mortal danger I don't have any objections to it.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:13:07

Apols, Lucy Mangan is Stylist, Gaby Hinsliff is Grazia. Love them both as I do, I'm a bit disappointed that they've both gone down the 'I'll be a beard for corporate capitalism which can only survive if it makes enough women feel shit' road.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:15:04

I'm sorry you couldn't understand my point.

It was that you should perhaps have interrogated why she wanted to do what she wanted to do.

Fairly straightforward really.

Its nothing to do with magazines, although I do know about advertisers and their influence as I'm heavily involved in that industry.

Having bad teeth is unhealthy, if your teeth rot and fall out you can get gum disease, be unable to talk eat etc tooth care is important to overall health. Having bad skin and hair are typical reflections of a poor diet, malnutrition and lack of exercise and fresh air. Those things are unhealthy what have magazines got to do with it?

I (and not in an insulting way) cannot understand your point at all.

Well I did interrogate her, as how else would I know that she felt she wanted to do this because of discussions hse had with her friends and peers at school and that it is more specifically to do with her swimming.

I've never said that I just sent her off to a wax, I explained from the beginning I knew why she wanted to do it.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:21:41

I also find the idea, which Ruby articulates, of having 'my causes', completely perplexing. I literally can't imagine segmenting the world like this - understanding how the dominant way of thinking around one issue gets passed on, and challenging it - yet refusing to apply that knowledge to the bigger picture.

I hate libertarianism. It's so selfish.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 21:25:52

I've said that feminism fights against Rape and unequal pay do you not take issue with that?
I'm white but I still care about racism, you don't have to experience something to have a sense of morality about it.
I feel the pressure to conform and sometimes find make up fun. You can still think and realise that this pressure is caused by patriarchy even if you succumb to it. I want the expectation and pressure to go not the freedom, it would bring much more freedom.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:27:17

LOL at being unable to talk for the yellowness of my teeth - which I think we both know (personal experience, as you have) is what fashion mags call 'dental health'

If only fashion mags were concerned that our having dull hair might mean that we weren't eating well. I would totally love a Jewish aunt fashion mag. I might start one.

But you know as well as I do that all they care about is the number of their readers who buy Daniel Galvin Hi-Gloss Define and Shine Shampoo for Real Brunettes.

And you mistake the meaning of 'interrogate' in the context I used it. I don't mean 'question' - I mean 'explore'. Which you failed to do.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 21:27:28

Obviously brushing your teeth is important but not whitening, cosmetic dentistry etc.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:29:40

Arf at Krumbum's dental health messaging just in case she appeared to be advocated poor dental hygiene. wink

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 21:34:02

Loving the idea of all these ill, unhealthy, fat, yellow-toothed feminists grin

but the very worst thing of all is that the odd pube might escape from around the cozzie

madness

It doesn't fit with my lifestyle, its just not something I feel at all strongly about. Thats the way it is. i have much more concern for the issues that are detrimental to all genders. What about the lack of socio-economic egality in our society or the lack of social mobility.

I have a black male child in inner city London, I have far greater concerns about him (the lack of expectation of achievement, the propensity to become involved in criminality or gangs, his harassment by the police etc etc) than the idea that my daughter might feel conscious about being overweight. Which if I'm honest will do her bloody good because being overweight is unhealthy , or do we just encourage all this exercise and 5 a day for nothing.

I don't believe feminism has anything to do with rape.

This is what makes me so so cross. You are of course entitled to all your opinions but I'm not, because my views don't fit with your personal feminism ideal I'm selfish, and have lost my autonomy?!

lastnerve Wed 04-Jul-12 21:34:41

Interrogate? confused if my mother had dared to interrogate me about my fanny grooming, I'm afraid she would have told to mind her own.

Another angle OP to take is safety making sure she doesn't use cheap creams if shes hellbent on doing it, making sure she knows how to do it properly, to make sure not to use a rusty razor etc and to clean up after herself!!.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 21:36:52

No I was explaining to ruby why beautifying is not about health...

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 21:38:26

In what way does feminism have nothing to do with rape ruby?
It is one of the main aims of feminism to stop sexual abuse so that makes no sense.

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 21:39:58

I care about sexism, racism, socialism and much more. And it isn't based on it fitting in with my lifestyle [Hmm]

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:41:01

But Ruby - it's not about her being a healthy weight. That is only one teeny-weeny part of what mags/the CULCHA does.

There appear to be many messages: 'be a healthy weight', 'look after your teeth' etc.

But actually there's only one:

"You're shit and you know you are. Buy stuff to make yourself less shit."

Your daughter's future is as circumscribed by her gender as your son's is by his race. You should rail, till your throat is sore and your lungs give out, against both.

lastnerve Wed 04-Jul-12 21:44:57

Question to Feminist posters

honest question, if you found out you're 14 year old daughter was fully removing hair downstairs and wearing thongs , what would you do/suggest others to do? have you done it before?

I'm wondering how you would trad that line between parent and creepy when it comes to 'personal' choices how would you do that without mortifying your child?? .

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 21:45:21

The message don't get fat, your ugly doesn't make ppl healthier, it makes more ppl overweight and on the other end contributed to eating disorders. It does not make make ppl healthier.
Your son is a victim of racism and your daughter is a victim of sexism!
Why do you only care about 1? Her high risk of being sexually assaulted in her life, harassment by men on the street, The likelihood of being paid less. Are all these not as important as the risks posed against your son?

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:49:25

Good question Lastnerve.

I'd treat it the same way I treat the convos that I feel it's my duty to have with my son about things like porn, and consent.

ie. It's not great, but we do it, he's listening, and I'm as <casualface gosh I talk about this stuff all the time, it's an adult thing you see and you are nearly an adult> as I can possibly be.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 21:51:01

By 'we do it' I mean, we get thru the convo.
Not 'hey ds porn's a consumer choice'.

lastnerve Wed 04-Jul-12 22:02:03

How do they come up though Lindsay ?

Like 'hey you been watching porn?' how would you bring it up.

I just can't imagine how you would bring it up without being cringeworthy at best and creepy at worst.

I have a son I'll need to do this one day.

Laughing my head off here at the thought we should be shocked or disgusted by the sight of a stray pubic hair escaping from a swimsuit! How on earth did normal bodies become so scary to people? When I was young, we were pleased when we saw our first pubic hair. It meant that we were growing up. And it would never have occurred to us to shave or wax. In fact I had never heard of such things until I joined MN.

Yes, I must be old, but it is really funny that old ladies like me are not turned off by normal bodily functions. Can't imagine going through the pain and discomfort of shaving and waxing. Not enough time to waste either.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 22:11:39

He's ten. I know that other friends' kids have deffo seen extreme porn already, via mobile phones or being at a friend's house whose parents can't be arsed to have paretnal controls.

So I had to explain why we're so uptight about parental controls, and very roughly about porn: sex is lovely, we all do it, it's brill. Seeing pictures of it can also be exciting - problem is that the way it's done right now is pretty sexist (he knows this concept) and doesn't show what sex is really like. Also sometimes the people wouldn't have chosen to do it if they weren't in difficult situations. Maybe this will change in the future. In the meantime, it can look quite upsetting and I don't want you to be upset; atually sex isn't upsetting, it's really lovely.

I bloody wished I didn't have to , but I did. He nodded, and moved on but not in that "lalalala I can;t hear you" way that we all know. At a later point I'll go into more depth on the 'pretty sexist' bit.

tsunami Wed 04-Jul-12 23:06:10

AnyFucker says sthg like 'funny how the OP never came back' - H'm...yes, sorry. She was indeed at the orthodontist but since she's been busy, finishing stuff, going on holiday, winding up work, kids off school, builders coming in (not as in 'painters and decorators'/euphemism for the curse/period/mess that matts up your pubes if you're 'disgusting' enough to have any...)

Brilliant thread. I love the feminism/patriarchy rallies, am depressed by some of the attitudes out there (as for the effin spelling - jeez), but hey - that's why I posted. I wanted to know what women are thinking, and we got that. Had some belly laughs in the 'butt out'/'keep your nose out' etc posts which then ramble on, offering advice,doing everything BUT butting out.

Oh, yes, a 'string' is worldspeak for what I gather you call a 'G-string' in the UK. Is that rocket science - ?

Anyway, the point in my story is, I haven't spoken to my DD, haven't told her what to do, haven't embarrassed her: we are bouncing ideas about here. Brainstorming. Pubestorming. But my bottom line (before I get on a plane to a place where the bikini line will be on show, possibly even my unenhanced, 44-year-old breasts, OMG) is that any girl on the cusp of adulthood and not yet independent is allowed to be worried about by her parent. I agree with the poster who said that a lot of today's problems come from people who don't get involved enough - amen to that. It doesn't mean telling them what to do. It just means caring, maybe talking about stuff, and looking out for them.

As for the sharpwit who said: 'You have an odd turn of phrase OP. Like the nun that used to run our secondary school.
Weird thrad.', I can only say - until you've had a glimpse under my cassock you ain't seen NOTHIN'.

wine

AnyFucker Wed 04-Jul-12 23:09:17

here's to you, OP wine

Krumbum Wed 04-Jul-12 23:10:25

I think that's exactly what I would lindsaywagner, seems like the best most honest way to deal with the situation.
I am very interested to know how ruby thinks that feminism has nothing to do with rape? As a feminist, I feel freedom from sexual abuse is one of the underpins of feminism. I thought this was widely known too. I know not many people are feminists but most ppl would agree that freedom from rape is what feminists are fighting for.

LindsayWagner Wed 04-Jul-12 23:27:00

Yes, wine to you OP. Have lovely hols.

Socknickingpixie Thu 05-Jul-12 01:59:34

This has actually been really intresting reading.I'm not quite sure how we got to some of the subjects but all the same intresting.
Op glad you got back I was concerned that the orthadontist had kidnapped you.

Would it be tmi to disclose that I have breast implants but haven't been arsed to shave my legs since mid April.

seeker Thu 05-Jul-12 07:02:50

What I really want to know from the hygiene and swimming costume camp is why, ifbthose are the rqsons, donyou take it all off?

And for those who wonder how you talk about this to a 14 year old, surely it's just part of an ongoing conversation? You don't just start talking ahout removing pubic hair from a standing start at 14. You will by then have already talked about leg hair, underarm hair....and you will have already talked about how women are perceived in the media, air brushing, how models body shapes are not actually achievable by most women, how the commercial world works by inventing an issue then selling a solution to it, how advertisers prey on women's insecrutis about their bodies...

seeker Thu 05-Jul-12 07:04:33

"What I really want to know from the hygiene and swimming costume camp is why, ifbthose are the rqsons, donyou take it all off?"

God, typo hell!

"What I really want to know from the hygiene and swimming costume camp is why, if those are the reasons, do you take it all off?"

Socknickingpixie Thu 05-Jul-12 08:37:04

seeker i took it all off by accident one time, was trying to get everything neater and even and sadly it was a bit like when you cut your fringe without a mirror, in my defense i was wankered, for some reason i was trying to do it with actual clippers and i did have my left foot in a plant pot at the time.

lastnerve Thu 05-Jul-12 09:26:12

I take it all off, its become habit.

SecretPlace Thu 05-Jul-12 09:26:24

^In what way does feminism have nothing to do with rape ruby?
It is one of the main aims of feminism to stop sexual abuse so that makes no sense^

Feminism isn't going to stop rape. You do know that? The same as stopping shaving ones pubes isn't going to stop it.

As a feminist, I can't believe you are pushing your views onto other women. You're telling them what they should and shouldn't do instead of letting them have a choice. Isn't that one of the main things of feminism, for women to be able to make choices for ourselves?

why we want to shave is here nor there. It might be a social norm, so what? It's also a social norm to use a knife and fork whilst eating but no-ones complaining about that.

And again I'd like to ask you to apply your logic to men, how come they arent repressed in your eyes then? I know my fella would probably have a Gandalf beard if I wasn't for me.

Socknickingpixie Thu 05-Jul-12 09:53:39

with all due respect rape is a crime therefore it should be an issue for every member of the comunity every single one.

its also a power and control issue its about dominating and harming not just about gratification,pornography,shaven muffs,nail varnish or any other thing has nothing to do with it its not soley a crime relating to females there are fairly high incidents of hetrosexual men commiting it against other men. its unacceptable criminal behaviour commited by criminals
whilst it may very well be an issue that feminists may wish to raise awareness about, but it is not a feminist issue, to make it such or claim it as such gives it the potential to be invalidated as a community issue.shit like that is why some people dont take it seriously

SecretPlace Thu 05-Jul-12 09:59:30

Good post socknicking

It's an issue for each and every person, we are all fighting rape crime. It would seen I'm almost advocating rape by shaving my own fanny in krumbum and pals eyes confused

I think these people should be focusing their attention elsewhere. My bestfriend was raped when she was 15, it never went to court because she was told 'the case isn't strong enough'. How it wasn't strong enough I'll never know because even if she had been willing she was still only 15. Thinks like this need changing. We can't stop people from raping people, we can make it easier for those who have been victim.

lastnerve Thu 05-Jul-12 10:05:19

This is derailing slightly we are talking about bald fannies not rape cases...

LeBFG Thu 05-Jul-12 10:11:31

This debate is getting away from the issue of shaving to wider feminist campaigning readers may (or may not) agree with. I'm interested by why women feel the need to shave.

It IS uncomfortable to say the least, even if one gets used to it. The hygiene argument is surely ridiculous. And given that someone said on here that 70/80's porn was all about hairy muffs, the hairs on our muff is surely just part of trends that go in and out of fashion.

I don't buy into the radfem interpretation that the patriarchy is seeking to keep us down in our place. I agree upthread with the consumerist analysis. It's all about selling us shit we don't want and never needed. Why is it suddenly de rigeur to shower three times a day (men and women)? Wear padded bras (I can never find a normal, non-padded bra anymore)? Whiten our teeth (men and women)? Have hair extensions? Get a sun-bed tan (men and women)? The list is endless and one that applies just as much to teenage girls and boys as to "informed" adults.

Why is no one challenging this? I live OS and I'm shocked more and more eveytime I return to visit family. UK men and women are drones. They are all suppressed by the the power of advertising and no longer have individual/original tastes or desires.

Yes, bald fannies is true but, the message that seems to be coming from the 'feminist' camp is that by having a bald fanny you are not supporting feminism and therefore by default you are aiding in the continuation of rape.

I had come back to say I have never associated feminism with rape I believe rape is a person against person crime, individual against individual, aggressor against victim, man on women, man on man, adult on child whatever that it is not typically a sexually driven act it is about power and control but generally is related to issues within the individual rapist, and as it involves all should be the concern of all and not hijacked by people to push their own agendas.

I would still like the points I made about tattoos, gaming and breastfeeding answered as well as wondering what the feminists are doing to push their feminist agenda other than not shaving their fannies? Also if they do things like get their haircut?

Also I would like to know what the solutions are for overthrowing the patriarchy or gaining their ideals, I can't believe that the method is solely dependant on putting aside make-up and growing out your bush.

LeBFG Thu 05-Jul-12 10:20:41

I guess feminism initally came into the equation as for a long time, women victims were told 'you had it coming' or were met with general disbelief. As always, there is an historical aspect.

Feminist issues are wide and varied, like the feminists themselves. The bfing bit is a french fem obsession. One many anglosax fems are not so bothered about, though I'm sure the fem lobby will inform you better on this and answer your other questions.

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 10:53:19

LeBFG that is just a silly thing to say that UK people are drones that have no individuality. Frankly that is offensive.

LeBFG Thu 05-Jul-12 11:45:09

Just my observation imnotmymum - sorry if that offends you.

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 11:56:22

It ok just a massive sweeping generalisation that all

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 12:01:50

Why rape is a feminist issue:
www.awc.org.nz/userfiles/16_1152582920.pdf

And I'm not telling women what to do, I'm explaining how choice is compromised in a patriarchical society. Once one has awareness of this they are much freer to make an informed choice...
I have already explained this if you read back.

SardineQueen Thu 05-Jul-12 12:04:05

When it comes to fashion it's not silly.

i don't know anyone who currently has a poodle perm, or a mullet, or wears enormous shoulder pads for work. Yet you couldn't move for them in teh 80s. Even when you don't think you are "following fashion" you are forced to by what is in the shops. Unless you are an art-student type who shops exclusively at flea markets and makes their own clothes, and doesn't mind getting stared at when you walk down the street, and don't need to work in any kind of mainstream job, then the fact is you "are" adhering to current norms (fashions), whether you see it that way or not.

And the idea that 14 year old girls are usually totally immune to peer pressure and act entirely independently the whole time is just silly. Teenagers - boys and girls - are driven by an enormous desire to conform to their chosen group.

seeker Thu 05-Jul-12 12:10:38

I'm repeating an earlier post- still hoping for an answer to my question.
What I really want to know from the hygiene and swimming costume camp is why, if those are the reasons, do you take it all off?

And for those who wonder how you talk about this to a 14 year old, surely it's just part of an ongoing conversation? You don't just start talking ahout removing pubic hair from a standing start at 14. You will by then have already talked about leg hair, underarm hair....and you will have already talked about how women are perceived in the media, air brushing, how models body shapes are not actually achievable by most women, how the commercial world works by inventing an issue then selling a solution to it, how advertisers prey on women's insecrutis about their bodies..."

jeanvaljean Thu 05-Jul-12 12:27:11

This topic has been done before on MN. What happens is it splits down the middle very distinctly by age. All the over 30s find it a troubling sign of female oppression and feminism in decline, and all the under 30s, who have grown up in an internet-pornoised world see nothing wrong with it at all.

Being over 30 I am appalled by it, mostly because I feel the under-30s don't even realise that their thoughts and feelings about their pubic hair have been so thoroughly corrupted by men and the new-style porn. So they parrot the 'it's more hygenic, it's more comfortable' arguments truly believing this to be why they remove the hair. When in reality it is a paradigm shift caused by the prevalence of internet porn and the abhorrence of those men who've grown up on it now have towards pubic hair.

I find it terribly sad.

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 12:34:40

Jean, I'm 23 and find it sad too! But I know I'm in the minority sadly.

LeBFG Thu 05-Jul-12 12:56:06

"corrupted by men and the new-style porn"...

Two points here:
1. Do men seek to corrupt women's 'thoughts and feeling about their public hair'? I don't think so. This is about consumerism and advertising IMO and not the patriarchy. Why do I think this? Because hairy muffs have gone in and out of fashion for decades if not centuries (check the origin of the word merkin).

2. 'the new-style porn': which came first, people's changing preferences or the new porn-industry norm? I reckon this hairless muff trend started with an abhorrence of all pubic body hair, linked into the cleanliness hysteria our society is going through. Ultimately finding it's origins in advertising/consumerism.

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:04:29

Read your link and need first to question a few things.I do not believe my life is controlled by the threat or existence of sexual violence nor that of Daughters. However of course we make our children ,both boys and girls, aware of the dangers of their environment. I am stating my point from a rural south west UK stance therefore believe that regional differences may account for our fears however it is not solely from the stance of sexual violations we prepare our children, but from the view point of keeping safe in all manners. Mugging, fights, domestic violence, drugs etc., we do inform our children of people who may take advantage and pressure them yet really cannot let it rule their or our lives as the world is a fantastic place with many opportunities it would be a disservice to our children in my opinion to, for example, not wear ,make up or a short skirt or not shave our pubic hair in an attempt to bring down the patriarchy, if it does exist. I whole heartedly agree that of course the woman should not be blamed, additionally agree that as a community we must be aware and create an understanding as to why it happens. It is written by women from a rape centre therefore they have had first hand experience for for the paper to be truly powerful an opposite argument needs to be addressed so as not to appear bias or as propaganda. Very interesting though. Thank you.

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:12:05

I think you are vastly underestimating the risk of rape if you dont feel the fear that most women do. Women are told over and over not to walk the streets at night in a way men arnt, that is constantly telling them to fear rape. women are told what they wear and how much they drink means they are more likely to raped. It is a constant fear that means women have to compromise their lives and freedoms.

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:15:18

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/documents/Rape%20-%20The%20Facts.doc

The fact that it is almost never convicted means that rape is practically legal, so we must compromise our lives and then if it happens there is nothing we can do about. This is what feminism wants to stop.

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:18:18

I of course cannot speak on how other women feel but do women really live in this fear. The only females that I can draw on are my friends and family and I believe it is not a "fear" they hold. As a pointer I tell my SS and DS to be careful in the streets as to the threat of fighting or stabbings may occur when out, to be aware but not to instil a sense of fear. Krumbum as a women and surrounded by many women in my work, personal and family life I do not recognize that we are told "over and over" and to "constantly fear rape". Have you been bought up like this?

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:24:10

So you dont think there is a message to women not to walk the streets alone (i dont just mean girls, women too) ? Not Drink freely? Wear revealing clothes that might attract the wrong attention? 'lead men on'?
Because I don't know a single woman who hasn't been told this over and over.
Even though most rapes are commited by somebody the victim knows! So this 'advice' doesn't actually protect. It just means women have less freedoms.

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:29:49

Of course there is the message however I do not think it something I have heard banged on about repeatedly. As I said boys are told to be careful due to crime as well. IMO if we all started not wearing make up, stopped shavin, stopped wearing what we like ten surely the "men have taken over" if you believe that they are all trying to control women. Women do not have any less freedom where I come from.
Krumbum your name suggests you have a problem with men in general

LeBFG Thu 05-Jul-12 13:33:09

This is again where I'm going to challenge this assumption of the 'patricarchy behind it all'

From the pdf: 'There is insufficient public challenging around sexist advertising, pornography, and other forms of sexism. This helps support a culture where
degradation and the sexual objectification of women is considered acceptable,
which in turn supports male violence against women.'

There is clealy more and more easily acessible porn nowadays than ever before. Is there a concomittant surge in rape crimes?

As imnotmymum says, men also experience gendered risks, like stabbing on the way home from the pub. The pdf itself quotes '22.2% of girls and 11.3% of boys' reported having experienced unwanted sexual behaviour. This is a clear sex bias, but not a women's only problem.

The stats on rape are depressing. More needs to be done. But I'm not sure that insisting it's a feminist issue helps matters. I see rape as a violence issue. It's a thoroughly hateful VIOLENT act.

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:38:00

I think it's important to be able to make an informed choice and that cannot be done without an understanding of patriarchy. In an equal society I believe drastically less women would 'choose' to follow the rules of 'hotness'. Because those expectations would no longer exist.
They do have less freedom. You don't know the ins and outs of the lives of women around you. And many will be paid less, sexual assaulted and victims of domestic violence.
Why does my name suggest I have a problem with men? (Which I don't btw, I have a problem with patriarchy)

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:40:24

Interesting to research that Le the link between more accessiblre porn and rise or not in rape cases from a quick google (not scholarly papers but just to see what out there) it seems not however again the authors validity need to be questioned. It is recognised that rape is a power/control crime by some therefore how a girl behaves/looks becomes negated

LeBFG Thu 05-Jul-12 13:46:24

Women are choosing to follow silly rules. Yes, I agree. I'm just not convinced the patricarchy is at fault here. Men and women are social animals and a lot of our behaviour has roots in our evolutionary past - we stick together and exclude the odd-balls, strangers etc. If we were all equal, this conformism would still exert it's power. I wonder if this is why us oldies are shocked at 14yo shaving their minge - we just feel less bound to follow the pack? I certainly feel this way.

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:46:50

Yes that's exactly the point! Telling a women to dress differently does not protect her. It does not reduce likelihood of rape, all it does it restrict her!
But rape culture is what means more men see women as sexual objects which leads to more rape. not the fault of women.

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:50:47

sexual women have been around for a long time and I disagree that more men now see women this way. Quite the opposite. As I say I can only speak from my environment not generally. .

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 13:54:53

The rise is raunch culture does mean women are more sexualised and objectified now.
Idolisation of glamour models, porn star Jenna janesons book being a best seller, girls gone wild, easy access to hard core porn, normalisation of strip clubs, glamourising prostitutes and so much more.
Can explain the name thing?

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 14:04:35

Ok I think I need to stop now and really finish my fish pie.
All of the above in your post I do not have the energy to argue with anymore. Quite honestly we live in different universes. Please do look at the flip side of how things for women have become better and look at the history of sexual objectivity of both males and females.
I referred to your name as it suggests that you see men as filthy and a krumbum is someone who uses his comic behaviour to get women to sleep with him just thought it quaint as it refers to a man as "filthy"

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 14:19:22

I do agree that things are better in many ways for women. Because of feminism! But women are still disadvantaged, it's a fact.
I am aware of the history but it never affects men the way it does women eg corsets, foot binding now plastic surgery. I also believe these things are affected by wealth and class, men are oppressed too in this sense!
I honestly didn't know that about the word krumbum lol, Krum
Is a nickname anyway and i added bum cos it rhymes!

imnotmymum Thu 05-Jul-12 14:20:12

thanks

Socknickingpixie Thu 05-Jul-12 16:32:02

im over 30 (quite a bit over) but i dont see it as a huge massive issue and im certainly not shocked by it.

i also rarely conform to anything that would be concidered fashionable i dress the way i dress because im comfortable with myself.if i see an outfit i like i buy it i dont give to hoots if its 'in' or not equally if i see an outfit that in i would probally not bother with it. thats mainly because im tight smile i clothes shop rarely only when i need to,and dont much care if my children laugh at me.

if i happened to prefer to compleatly shave my muff i would and i wouldnt care if it were trendy to or not as it happens i dont because imho i think it makes you childlike,but im happy to accept that not everybody agrees with me.

i cant open the doc you linked to but im more than comfortable in my stance of rape being a criminal issue and im satisfyed that my stance is based on a extreamly relivant period of extensive formal study followed by relivant employment. im also surprised that anybody thinks shaven muffs contribute towards rape,surely if you go down that route then its being a bit blaiming.we are perfectly ok to get up in arms (quite rightly) when anybody surgests that the way someone dresses could contribute but apparently those who shave there muffs are unknowingly contributing but its ok to say that.

i am also just as likly to make sure i lock my door when i leave my house to reduce the risk of having my tv stolen as i am to take due care when walking about at night i dont concider factering in that some people are criminals and sensably reducing risk as oppression and i dont think a bit of guidence to children regarding booze consumption remaining sensable as oppressive its just your job as a parent,my daughters are very aware that no means no as are my sons but they certainly dont live in fear or have there lives hindered in anyway because of this, hairy muffs or not

Toadskinsauce Thu 05-Jul-12 16:42:38

I think it's pretty normal I did it at 14 (itchy as hell!) and been wearing string / thongs all my life... so she's just getting to know herself and her body.

I would just as others have said get her to clean up!

Greatauntirene Thu 05-Jul-12 17:51:59

Male models don't have hairy chests ever now. Same as women don't have pubic hair.
No doubt the fashion will change back in time.

Krumbum Thu 05-Jul-12 17:58:33

Please read back through the thread before saying I am victim blaming because it is fact the complete opposite, I am blaming rapists and rape culture.
Yes rape is a criminal offence, one that is Almost entirely men against women and that is barely ever taken to court and sentenced..

Socknickingpixie Thu 05-Jul-12 22:38:43

krum it appears to have escaped your attention but i have actually been contributing to this very intresting discussion since very early on in the thread,

several times you have gone to great lenghts to inform us about the body hair removal/oppression/patriarchy/pornography and how it all contributes towards rape so if it contributes towards rape how is it NOT blameing.

if anybody said to me that woman deserved to get raped because she is wearing a miniskirt and had 7 vodka and cokes i would wait till they were all alone and re educate them by smashing there head against a very hard wall till there brain showed some sign of intelligent thought in a christian and loving way using polite yet firm reminders of just how fucking fucked up wrong they are.

so why is it any different to say women who shave there body hair or do themselves up contribute towards widespread rape because it reiterates oppression and patriarchy because that in essance is what you are saying.

back to the point of the op, but you seam to think that a 14 year old child needs to be educated about this view point as yes its a view point not actually a fact, as opposed to perhaps asking her to clean up after herself and giving her a minor pep talk about beauty being how she sees herself not other people.

tsunami Sat 10-Nov-12 17:23:03

Back from holiday. Smooth bikini line: got through 90 razors and 103 tubes of Veet. It was draughty, however. Have let everything grow back now and my spider colony down there is so much happier...

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now