to not date a Tory?

(277 Posts)
bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 09:31:19

Well...actually I dont care if IABU or not, I just couldnt do it.

What I really want to ask you; if you have Labour/left wing politics could you/would you/are you marry/ have a life partner who has Conservative/right wing politics?

And vice-versa of course?

Yanbu

It would be fundamentally incompatible with who I am

iwantbrie Fri 11-May-12 09:34:42

Date one? I bloody married one! grin
We don't watch Question Time together, it causes arguements...
Seriously though, I'm much more left wing than he is, we just agree to disagree on certain topics. No big deal really, after 15 years together we know what things to just Leave Alone.

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 09:35:24

YANBU - I couldn't either. Your political persuasion underpins all your values. I would clash massively with a die hard tory.

fuckbucket Fri 11-May-12 09:37:53

I find they're all getting more and more mutually interchangeable certainly at the parliamentary level, so YABU.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 09:39:04

iwantbrie there would be no talking at all in our house, in order to avoid clashing i reckon!

what do you talk about? confused

Mopswerver Fri 11-May-12 09:39:11

No. I couldn't even consider it. I went on a few dates with one once. He was very well off and my friends were all for it but I just couldn't.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 09:41:33

yes i agree fuckbucket but a left wing person and a right wing voter have different and incompatible ideologies IMO

I dont think I even have any Tory friends...

iwantbrie Fri 11-May-12 09:42:32

bejeezus anything but politics unless we've got a bottle of wine open!
He does occasionally get into ranty Tory mode, I have perfected the 'nod and smile' technique along with a couple of 'yes dear's'... Winds him up no end grin

YANBU. Political beliefs are a big deal and show a lot about a person.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 09:42:38

sorry...that should read a left wing voter and a right wing voter

Whatmeworry Fri 11-May-12 09:44:39

I find you get pompous pricks on the extremes of all the political movements, I detested the permanently bleeding hearts and Back-To-Marxists just as much as Tory Boys.

The saving grace of Tories is they are more likely to wash and less likely to have beards grin

iwantbrie Fri 11-May-12 09:45:10

Thing is I don't have a huge interest in politics anyway and have a pretty low opinion of most of the people involved in it so I'm not generally inclined to start a discussion about it.
We do disagree on alot of current affairs but we both respect each others opinion (even if we think it's load of old cobblers...)

bleedingheart Fri 11-May-12 09:45:15

YANBU

I might be able to date but I couldn't live with and marry someone I fundamentally opposed politically.

no I couldn't do it

aswell as another poster, I don't think any of my close friends are tory either

MoreBeta Fri 11-May-12 09:46:12

YABU.

Its that 'forbiden fruit' thing. All the leftie girls at college went out with a Tory boy in the end.

Besides, everyone knows socialists and champagne go well together. grin

marshmallowpies Fri 11-May-12 09:49:36

I married one!
The issues that would have been a deal-breaker were if he was racist, sexist or homophobic, or didn't believe in global warming/care about environmental issues.

Luckily he did not tick any of those boxes and we just tend not to discuss the economic issues where we do differ also because I don't understand economics full stop.

He definitely falls into the category of Nice Tory. Plus, as I am more liberal/green leaning than socialist and loathe New Labour/Blair/Mandelson/Campbell we are united by our hatred of Labour although coming at it from different directions!

Pagwatch Fri 11-May-12 09:49:39

I couldn't date someone who had a different moral compass to me. So that may be an issue.
But I think excluding someone purely because of how they vote is odd. Not least because lots of people shift their political views over time.
Only dating people who feel exactly as you do on every issue smacks of something a bit odd - i don't know, arrogance or immaturity or something.

I wouldn't want to date 'me' in male form. How fucking dull would that be.
My personal views are robust enough that I can tolerate different ones around me.

chandellina Fri 11-May-12 09:49:39

would need more information ... kind of a difference between someone who vaguely identifies with a political party because of their upbringing vs. someone who aspires to be, say, an MP!

You'd also have to keep in mind that people's politics often evolve over time. The question is too black and white - most people aren't that politically definable anyway.

janelikesjam Fri 11-May-12 09:51:05

... if he was rich haha ... thinking alimony if it all goes wrong ... <grin>

janelikesjam Fri 11-May-12 09:52:39

Ooo what Pagwatch says. The moral compass bit and the rest. p.s. I dated someone with great genuine political morals (much more than me) who behaved like a complete jerk to me, urgh, so go figure ...

iwantbrie Fri 11-May-12 09:53:06

Now that would be an interesting question... "would you date an MP of any political party"grin
No bloody way...

MrsHoarder Fri 11-May-12 09:53:35

Depends how left wing you are. If you have fundamentally different ideologies (in everything from use of private education to how tax should work) then I think it would be very difficult to ever see it as a long term relationship. So its a waste of time to date someone that different.

If you are both fairly central and just slightly different sides of the spectrum then its silly to write it off just based on the label you vote for.

anothermadamebutterfly Fri 11-May-12 09:54:17

YANBU.

But then, I have never been tempted by one myself. I imagine it would be the same vice-versa.

KitCat26 Fri 11-May-12 09:55:17

Again, married to one (not die hard though). We occasionally have discussions about politics and just learn to disagree although I am right grin. We vote differently but then we are individuals. We agree on other things and share interests so its not a big deal.

I don't know how any of my friends vote (although they all do) and again even if they were a die hard Tory it wouldn't stop them being a nice person.

MrsHoarder Fri 11-May-12 09:56:07

Whatme this is less of a problem in historically labour areas. The labour party did arise from the unions, not London champagne socialists afterall...

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 09:56:57

No. I absolutely could not date a Tory.

I would just shout CUNT at them all day and we'd both get fed up.

KitCat26 Fri 11-May-12 09:59:31

Marshmallowpies summed it up better than me:

'The issues that would have been a deal-breaker were if he was racist, sexist or homophobic, or didn't believe in global warming/care about environmental issues.'

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 09:59:43

YANBU date who you want!

Would I date a Tory? Nope, it would be a disaster.
Would a Tory date me? er nope!

but when it is dating you choose who you want.

Taffeta Fri 11-May-12 10:00:01

I am a socialist to my core. My parents and all their families, going back many generations, have been socialists.

DH's family are all Tories and so is he. Margaret Thatcher is his idol.

I paid for my Labour Party membership last year on his debit card so it would show up on his statement. Great fun.

In general, we know the areas that we don't agree on, and only occasionally have flare ups. I enjoy running rings round some of his dimwit Tory mates when I've had a few though.

libelulle Fri 11-May-12 10:00:03

Nope, no way. I even have to turn the radio off when the moral maze comes on, I get so het up. Having that in the house full time? I'd implode.

GoPoldark Fri 11-May-12 10:00:23

It ends up being a moral difference, so no.

Although among a set of my ex's friends, who were a very 'political' bunch (however - for that, read up themselves public schoolboys, basically) there was one full-on Tory who was the nicest of the (cliquey, irritating) lot. The 'full-on Labour' character was a shit of the highest order. This was back in the early 90s. It made me think twice about judging people by their politics... and then 'New Labour' got in, and I realised that he wasn't 'full-on Labour', he was an opportunist little shit intending to catch a wave, and opportunist little shits come in all colours smile

birdofthenorth Fri 11-May-12 10:00:33

Ha! What Hully said.

I would literally wallop him everytime he opened his mouth. And then you'd all have to advise him to Leave Me smile

Abra1d Fri 11-May-12 10:01:31

What a depressing thread. I find a lot of left-wingers rather naive (and they often reduce arguments to just shouting swear words around) but I have lots of friends from across all parties. Because, you know, we are all humans, with interests in people and the way society works. We may have different ways of wanting to fix things but that doesn't mean we have to hiss at one another across some unnecessary divide.

And yes, I have enough self-confidence to listen to other people and possibly adapt what I believe politically.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:01:39

grin hully

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:01:46

dh insanely voted lib dem last time, so at least he only gets shouted at with:

lily-livered weaselly turncoat bastard suck-up desperate arse.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:02:56

yeah Abra i just like a bit of peace and harmony at home

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:03:16

That's funny Aba1d, I find the exact same thing, but much more so with Tories. Because they are:

1. Greedy
2. Thick
3. Greedy and thick.

But at least they swear with nicer accents.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:06:59

are you Peter Hitchens Abra?

toni76 Fri 11-May-12 10:07:07

I married one too, and after many years of arguing, and watching the last Government piss our children's future up a wall I realised he was right. Bugger.
He also believes in God though, and I am an atheist with a low opinion of all forms of organised religion - and on that, I will not be moved. He can take the kids to sunday school and give me some time off, and we're both happy.

WilsonFrickett Fri 11-May-12 10:07:31

I married one too! But as Marshmallowpies said, he's not racist, sexist, homophobic or otherwise a cnut. We have fundamentally different views on economic policy and how wealth should be created and distributed in society, but we're both have very similar views on how things should work - e.g. we both agree on a lot of how schools and education should work because we see where it doesn't work for DS, (but we don't agree on how the changes should be funded, of course!)

That said, I think it's easier in Scotland because neither of us are Nationalists - so laughing at the Great Feeder (Alex Salmond) helps to keep things on an even keel.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:09:53

wow toni Im impressed

I suppose it depends what you look for in a partner? What you find attractive in a person?

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 10:11:35

Well so do I Abra1d, in my time I have been member of a few different parties in fact because I HAVE evolved in my beliefs.

But what I want sharing my pillow is someone with the same fundamental ethos in life as myself- I have Tory friends, I have more friends mind whom could vote for the Raving Loony Party as far as I know, that's normal I think.

But my life is based on a set of Quaker ideals, and I don;t think they are at all Tory, I don't want to go to bed with someone who thinks I shouldn't be demonstrating for X set of rights or Y bill; I have a good marriage and that seems to me to be based on compatibility on key basics- and whilst we've not always voted the same way it HAS been to achieve similar ideals, and they are not Tory ones.

Mind even our nearest Tory MP (Mr Davies) is coming over to may way of thinking LMAO.

flatpackhamster Fri 11-May-12 10:14:32

I agree with Abra1d, this is depressing. Although it's a good way for the world to see how vile lefties can be. I can't, for a minute, imagine a 'Tory' (for want of a better word) running a thread like this anywhere.

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 10:14:52

Oh and because both Tories I have day to day contact with have in the past few months referred to my disabled kids as drains on society.

Yes, that too.

Sis is having MASSIVE issues with her Tory DH over beliefs- he thinks I am a witch and my kids a burden, is homphobic, and quite unpleasantand quite merrily posts comments about that on Facebook (I defriended him but it gets back to me)-

I don;t know who she votes for but she is nice and he is a Twat and thheir differences are splitting them up slowly.

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 10:15:18

flatpack read my post below LOL, X posts.

Not all Tories are nice.

FamiliesShareGerms Fri 11-May-12 10:17:04

I'm the same as Marshmallowpies and Wilson Frickett. Having been a card carrying member of a union of one sort or another, I have been married for nearly 10 years to one of the handful of people who actually requested that their local authority not pay their union subscription when they were at university... We often joke that no Match.com type site would ever put us together, but actually, scratch below the political surface, and the sort of things that we fundamentally believe in (the moral compass that Pagwatch mentioned) make us pretty similar.

YWBVU to refuse a date with someone just because they're a Tory. Doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they say!

What specifically would put you off?

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:17:11

Goodness what a sheltered life you lead flatpack

You've not met many tories then?

How depressing

<love "depressing" as an attempted wry-tory-shake-of-the-head-put-down>

underthevalley Fri 11-May-12 10:18:13

YANBU

I would be terrified that my dad would come back and haunt me forever.

My political views make up so much of who I am I don't think I could date someone who wasn't at least in the same 'wing' as me.

thefurryone Fri 11-May-12 10:19:18

I suspect what the OP is saying is that she wouldn't date a rich posh boy, which from what I can gather would count out most of the labour party as well.

twofingerstoGideon Fri 11-May-12 10:21:38

I would feel utterly soiled.

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 10:25:51

haha Hully - hilarious posts!

anothermadamebutterfly Fri 11-May-12 10:27:24

peachy that is truly dreadful, but to be fair, people who say things like that are bigots rather than just tories.

Friend are friends, and abra, believe me, I do not usually hiss or shout. I prefer to have harmony in my home, and feel connected with my partner over things that matter to me, and I want my children to be brought up in a moral universe that makes sense and feels right to me. Doesn't mean we have to agree on everything, but at least on the basics.

gamerwidow Fri 11-May-12 10:27:25

It depends how interested and passionate you both are about politics IMO.
I vote Labour, DH votes Lib Dem and my best friend votes Tory.
None of us are that passionate about our political views though certainly not enough to upset our relationships.

I couldn't ever be friends with or date/marry anyone with bigoted views i.e. racist, sexist or homophobic but party politics don't bother me that much.

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 10:28:14

I personally couldn't stick anyone who took themselves and their opinions so seriously as to refuse to associate with someone on the basis of their political views.
so on that basis I suppose I'd have to say YANBU. We all have our boundaries. Some of us are just slightly more broad minded when we decide what they are.

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 10:28:28

Turn it on it's head

Why would a Tory date ME?

Anyone who voted for tory voted for Universal Credit, a system that will likley strip me of my carer's Allowance and force me on to Workfare (which by the way means DH will have to stop working for that period to care for the boys, a bit of an own goal as it is unlikely his self employed business will survive that long out).

Presumably then they think that by being at home to care for our 4 SEN kids (2 on DLA and in SN Placements, one being assessed for ASD and needing a statement soon, one with lower level needs and on SA+) I am a lazy tax wasting scrote who needs to be forced back into work.

Who looks for that in a partner? Seriously?

Although I suppose if I had married a Tory I could justifiably leave him to manage with ATOS and forms and pick up the shite!

looktoshinford Fri 11-May-12 10:29:29

Looks like you are limiting yourself to the Scots and Welsh gene pools then OP, because England is predominantly right wing.

Roll on Scottish independence so we can have Tories in power forever smile

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:29:36

no furry that is not what I meant confused

Im not talking about bank balances. Im talking about (like others have said) moral compass and fundamental values

My political beliefs are veryimportant to me. Sometimes, even often, it is interesting to debate them with people who have opposing views. But Idont want to share my home and life and children with someone with who I disagree with fundamentally on how the country/world/life shoule be run

thefurryone Fri 11-May-12 10:29:49

Also I find the concept of only dating people who have exactly the same views as you pretty dull. DH and I have a fairly similar moral compass but we disagree on many political issues, it makes for interesting conversation.

Besides I really don't get fundamentalism some people have regarding political parties very odd, I agree with somethings the conservatives say, somethings that the liberal democrats say and somethings that labour say (despite never being able to forgive them for being quite so shit when it comes to matters of the economy, my one year old would have made a better job of chancellor than Gordon Brown).

It truly baffles me that some people will discount a perfectly good idea just because they don't like the political party that the idea sprang from.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 10:30:25

Depends on what you mean really. The husband and I often vote differently, but there isn't a huge political gulf. But if there was a huge political gulf, it could reflect a similar gulf over moral issues in daily life.

For example, anyone who supports LGBT rights might have significant problems if their spouse thought "homosexual acts should be made illegal again".

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:31:03

fair enough reactionary like you said, we all have our boundaries
Politics are important to me

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 10:31:14

'Looks like you are limiting yourself to the Scots and Welsh gene pools then OP, because England is predominantly right wing'

Not sure my Somerset family would be quite so convinced LMAO.

Northernexile Fri 11-May-12 10:32:12

YANBU. He wouldn't want to share his chips.

thefurryone Fri 11-May-12 10:32:13

That should be some of things.

BobblyGussets Fri 11-May-12 10:32:47

In the spirit of bridging the gap, I would like to try and shag the tory out of Boris. i am a leftie, so it would feel really dirty like it should do.

flatpackhamster Fri 11-May-12 10:32:55

HullyGully I've done a few years on the stump and met lots of people of all political persuasions. I've met Tories, Lib Dems, Greens, Labourites, Communists, Trotskyites, Libertarians, the lot. I've met voters and candidates of all kinds. Some of them were arrogant, ignorant, vicious or spiteful. The majority were decent people doing what they thought was the right thing and though I disagreed with them we all got on well although our views were very different.

The only voters and candidates I've ever met who ever treated me as though I was subhuman were Guardianistas, wealthy upper-middle-class lefties. They were the only ones who believed that they were right and anyone who disagreed with them was evil.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:34:43

flatpack so I take it you dont have any criteria of what makes a good life partner? Or what makes 2 people compatible?

bitofcheese Fri 11-May-12 10:34:56

dh & i have opposing political views which i find frustrating at times BUT we have a fantastic marriage and have done for nearly 15 years. we rarely feel the need to discuss politics and if i do, i discuss them with someone else, that is unless i am in the mood for an argument smile

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:35:02

Gracious.

What a lot of people you have met and yet they were all lovely except Guardian readers.

Do try harder.

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 10:35:45

'I suspect what the OP is saying is that she wouldn't date a rich posh boy'

I doubt it. There are, in this world privileged people who also have a social conscience - who'd have thought that was possible(?) 'posh' people definitely do not always vote tory. Why would you make that assumption?

bitofcheese Fri 11-May-12 10:36:05

flatpack agree totally, especially on here smile

camdancer Fri 11-May-12 10:36:06

One election season years and years ago (before I was born), my Grandfather came home and announced he was going to put a Tory election poster in the front window. Fine said my Gran - and promptly put the Labour one next to it. smile

My Grandfather was very old fashioned and would have found the 21st century very hard. He was bought up Tory and that is what he would stay. I think they got on pretty well despite their different political views. They were similar religiously, maybe that was their saving grace.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:36:37

To clarify:

Policies are policies. there are some lib dem policies I agree/d with (excpet they threw them overboard the moment Cameron parted his arse cheeks.

But if we are talking about self-identifying with all the baggage that entails, then no, never someone that said I Am a Tory.

Jins Fri 11-May-12 10:37:08

I wouldn't be interested in anyone who had fixed political views and was unable to see the other side of an argument - of either side of the political spectrum.

samandi Fri 11-May-12 10:38:06

So long as one isn't a fundamentalist I'd imagine it could work. Seems a bit of a black and white view to me.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:38:11

One can see the other side Jins, one just despises it.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:38:12

ha underthevalley good point! even if I could live with it, my dads hackles would be up constantly grin

Pagwatch Fri 11-May-12 10:38:43

I am kind of with BobblyGussetts. Although I don't like Boris
But I can recall a gorgeous blonde bloke from my early 20s. 6ft 4 and with the body of a god. I had never even seen anyone who looked that good let alone been persued by one. He went to a posh school and his family were minted. He was funny, interesting and really nice. We dated for about 6 months in the 80s. He was a Tory
I feel so soiled. God yes. Yes.
<goes to lie down>

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 10:40:29

Well, reading the Guardian does have a negative effect on one's personality. The shimmering rage at the incompetent sub-editors just has to find a release somewhere.

Treat us with understanding and sympathy, please.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:40:30

You were young Pag, you were young. And one can overlook a lot for really good rumpy-pumpy. One just doesn't talk to them much. And certainly doesn't marry them.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:41:18

'I suspect what the OP is saying is that she wouldn't date a rich posh boy

I doubt it. There are, in this world privileged people who also have a social conscience - who'd have thought that was possible(?) 'posh' people definitely do not always vote tory. Why would you make that assumption?

and there are plenty of rich labour voters grin

Pagwatch Fri 11-May-12 10:42:34

grin

It's the 'dating' bit in the title that forces me back through the decades.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:44:15

Im really suprised that people are offended by this thread

Everyone has preferences/criteria when it comes to dating/shagging/marrying

for someit is physical appearance or bank balance

for me,and lots of people on this thread it seems, political persuasion is one of those criteria

At least its a bit deeper than 'what colour someones hair is' confused

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:44:36

I do feel Boris would be a dreadful fumbler

Jins Fri 11-May-12 10:45:37

I did actually 'date' a tory once. He didn't realise that the views he held were actually far closer aligned to left wing ideology. He was a tory because that's how he'd been brought up.

It was entertaining

Pagwatch Fri 11-May-12 10:46:41

Do some people date on the basis of hair colour alone [confessed]

FamiliesShareGerms Fri 11-May-12 10:46:51

Peachey, those comments are completely angry. The people who said that might be Tory twats, but basically they are just twats. I think there are twats in every political party, in fact.

bitofcheese Fri 11-May-12 10:47:26

i have more of a problem at the thought of having married someone with bad table manners smile can't help it, mothers rules have rubbed off on me

BobblyGussets Fri 11-May-12 10:47:32

I would take him in hand Hully.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:47:46

It's interesting though.

Says a lot about all the shit currently going down in this country. People saying politics don't matter.

Shurely some connection.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:48:08

Bobbly - no no no. Just no.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:48:15

pag I should have said 'would you step out with a Tory?'

WaitingForMe Fri 11-May-12 10:48:56

I think it comes down to intelligence. I'm a Tory and I couldn't date a naive reactionary left-winger but one of my best friends and her husband are very left wing and we get on fantastically. So yes I would date a smart left-wing person (I appreciate I'm coming from the other side of the argument but it's the same question in my opinion) and couldn't date a stupid Tory.

For the record I'm not racist, sexist, homophobic or disinterested in environmental issues. My background is political economy with a focus on development and my beliefs just so happen to vary from the Mumsnet standard. That doesn't make me evil! grin

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:49:16

See, what happens over breakfast?

John Humphrey's interviews a politician and there aren't fisticuffs over the cornflakes?

NarkedPuffin Fri 11-May-12 10:49:39

YABU - you're missing out on valuable potential conversions.

Pagwatch Fri 11-May-12 10:49:41

Haha . Yes 'step out with' woukd be more apt. Or a reference to courting.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:49:51

Why would anyone date a stupid anyone?

Even with good hair?

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:49:56

its not a tory vs labour thread. It is more a 'how important are your politics to you?' thread? are they a deal breaker

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 10:51:34

pag i believe people do date based on hair colour. There was a thread on here not so long ago about someone who wouldnt go out with balck people because she didnt find black skin attractive

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:52:24

But they look like choccy! Everyone loves choccy.

squeakytoy Fri 11-May-12 10:58:08

Why would anyone date a stupid anyone?

Even with good hair?

Plenty of men do just that... they dont want to be with someone who can challenge their opinions.. grin

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 10:58:30

What political persuasion are football hooligans? Are they non-voters? Can't stand non-voters. Or hooligans. Or graffiti taggers.

Am I shallow?

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:58:49

All right, apart from them.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 10:59:11

Deeply shallow

squeakytoy Fri 11-May-12 11:00:18

I couldnt date a man with small hands... what does that make me ? grin

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 11:00:21

haha squeaky good point

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 11:01:13

BigJess they are normally far right arent they??

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 11:02:24

squeaky i meant your point about men dating stupid ladies with good hair. not your point about hands! although <shudder>

aquashiv Fri 11-May-12 11:05:49

I have dated them many times and the attraction was probably equally patronising. That said I have more respect for those that do have a political compass than those that say oh they are all the same blah blah. Yet repeat the dogma the paper they read spouts.
Went into business with one. We are yin and yan and it works really well.
I have lots of friends from both camps and find the its obscene to make a profit, stand on your own feet Labourites just as irritating as the I am a Tory and only it for myself brigade.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 11:06:30

Definitely can't date far right- although one of my friends did. His opinions began to rub off...

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 11:06:30

"Presumably then they think that by being at home to care for our 4 SEN kids (2 on DLA and in SN Placements, one being assessed for ASD and needing a statement soon, one with lower level needs and on SA+) I am a lazy tax wasting scrote who needs to be forced back into work."

I vote Tory. I don't think that, Peachy. I was about to say "as well you know" but then I remembered I have namechanged and you don't know who I am anymore sad

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 11:10:00

I once arranged to go on a date with a guy without having had many conversations with him first. He was very good looking but said he had not had much luck with woman. I couldn't understand why

...................until I found out he was a BNP supporter! I've never deleted someone's contact details so fast.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 11:15:50

See, now on one level, that's superficial, but it's more a moral issue. I can't date someone who thinks black security guards have no right to ask white customers to leave a shop!

HmmThinkingAboutIt Fri 11-May-12 11:17:40

What a load of narrow minded people.

Its not what someone believes, its whether they respect your opinion and whether they try and change your opinion to theres, that matters.

I think its sad so many people on this thread have said that they could even be friends with someone on the basis on how they voted. If more people were, we might all learn something from each other.

The truth is the three main parties are actually closer than people want to admit anyway and all three parties would have, had to take similar action in this term of office no matter who got in. And this was an admission made by Alister Darling of all people.

I really think theres a lot of people with heads in the sand over stuff and want to believe in fairies rather than the real reality. The idea that one party supporter is somehow 'evil' and another is a 'loony' or similar rubbish is ridiculous.

TBH I think a lot of it is about stereotyped nonsense and pathetic footballer supporter type thinking rather than judging people as individuals and by real merit. You close a lot of doors by simply judging someone on how they vote and thats your loss, and probably not theirs.

You should always give people a chance, as you can be pleasantly surprised if you do...

theressomethingaboutmarie Fri 11-May-12 11:18:17

Ha this is something that DH and I always have a laugh about. He always jokingly threatens to vote Tory until I tell him that I could never f*ck one. grin

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 11:20:02

you can join the wryly-depressed contingent Hmmm

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 11:21:11

It is a bit daft in the context of modern British politics.
"I can't date a Tory. but a man who votes for the party that agrees the deficit still needs to be cut, just a teeny bit slower? Why, that's fine."
Loons

seeker Fri 11-May-12 11:22:16

I might be able to go out with someone who held Tory views on the economy. But not on social policy. My moral compass would be so very different to his that we would be completely incompatible.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 11:23:23

If all the parties are so closely aligned that it hardly matters and is a bit daft...

Why are peopel so keen to politically-identify?

Because there si a lot more to it than a few current policies.

ProfCoxWouldGetIt Fri 11-May-12 11:25:36

It was a deal breaker for me, years ago, pre DP, I eventually plucked up the courage to ask out a guy I worked with, he was cute, funny and from our brief chats while the kettle boiled I thought he was ideal for me.

He was in every way - except that he was a strong tory supporter, where as I'm very liberal/green. I tried to look past it, but there were just too many things that we clashed so strongly on, mainly down to the difference in our political views.

thebestisyettocome Fri 11-May-12 11:28:41

Sally Bercow springs to mind reading the OP. I imagine it's quite funny actually. She doesn't give a shit and I like her for that smile

thefurryone Fri 11-May-12 11:29:06

I doubt it. There are, in this world privileged people who also have a social conscience - who'd have thought that was possible(?) 'posh' people definitely do not always vote tory. Why would you make that assumption?

I know there are. And those that have a social conscience don't always vote labour, I would never vote for them because despite believing that it is fundamentally important for the rich in society to help those less well off, I don't believe that the labour party have a realistic idea of how to actually make this work in practice due to their rather shoddy grasp of economics.

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 11:29:29

"Because there si a lot more to it than a few current policies."

possibly there is, if you're the sort of tedious obsessive tribalist who persists with the delusion that mainstream parties of the left and inherently more "moral" than those on the right. but if you're one of those, frankly you're doing the Tory boys a favour by steering clear, so carry on.

Fennel Fri 11-May-12 11:30:12

No, I wouldn't date a Tory. Nor a man who wasn't very pro-feminist, nor someone who wasn't concerned about the environment, nor someone who was interested in earning lots of money, nor a racist, nor someone who had no interest in politics, nor someone who was into crystals or alternative therapies, nor all sorts of other people. So it's not just Tories.

I'm always a bit surprised I'm not single.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 11:32:02

Your post doesn't make sense Reactionaryfish

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 11:36:00

ha! and reactionary has illustrated quite nicely there, why I could never date a tory grin

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 11:56:29

Well, imagine living with someone who was dedicated to "protecting Christmas from politically-correct Guardianistas"! grin it would be just so tiresome.

I accidentally put myself on the American Family Association list once, and those are some conservatives I could never raise a child with!

marshmallowpies Fri 11-May-12 12:12:35

I think the deal breaker for DH would have been not politics but a woman who was either religious or into New Age stuff/alternative remedies etc. Luckily we are both staunch atheists and pro-science/evolution/rationalism & on that front are very united on how we want to bring up our children & educate them.

I was a bit more woo & new agey in my youth and am still a bit hippy-dippy at heart, although with a strong streak of scepticism now, & I think DH would disapprove of that far more than my politics!

If he'd been massively pro-private school I would have been a bit hmm about that as I'm massively anti, but luckily private school fees are not in our budget really so that argument has been averted.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 12:14:50

Oh, and I could never marry a Graud sub-editor, either. Such sloppy work ethics!

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 12:22:12

It's not superficial on any level to not want anything to do with a BNP supporter. Fascists horrify me...

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 12:29:43

No, it isn't superficial, because we're thinking about the attitudes the policies represent. But some people would refuse to recognise that, and turn it into a "how can you dislike someone for a cross on a piece of paper" issue and think it superficial.

Do you see what I mean?

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 12:33:47

Hmmthinkingaboutit, I disagree entirely with the sentiment of your post.

You think you shouldn't choose friends and partners 'simply' because of how they vote. But how they vote underpins their entire character, it is not like which brand of tea bags they use!

I grew up in a family of conservative voters who had a tunnel visioned view that everyone should be able to work hard enough not to need to rely on the state, blah blah blah and who had no inclination to consider those who were not as fotunate as they were (or worse, thought they were 'lower' and therefore not worth considering). Now that they have a severely disabled granddaughter, they have had to completely reassess their views. It has been interesting for me to observe!

But ramble aside, my point is that in my own experience conservatives tend to be unable to put themselves in someone else's shoes. I remember in my late teens waking up to the realisation that my family were wrong, and that actually their opinions were unpleasant.

seeker Fri 11-May-12 12:34:47

Actually, I might find it easier to date a Tory than someone who says "I have no interest in politics." if I had to choose. But I think I'd prefer celibacy to either.

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 12:35:20

Not really, BigJessie. When people vote they usually know what they are voting for. It's no good reducing the whole thing to a cross in a box imo.

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 12:41:43

"I grew up in a family of conservative voters who had a tunnel visioned view that everyone should be able to work hard enough not to need to rely on the state, blah blah blah and who had no inclination to consider those who were not as fotunate as they were (or worse, thought they were 'lower' and therefore not worth considering). Now that they have a severely disabled granddaughter, they have had to completely reassess their views. It has been interesting for me to observe!"

Does it not occur to you that to assume all people who vote Conservative do so because they share those particular views - which are certainly unpleasant - might be a bit "tunnel-visioned"?

We can all generalise, you see. I look about me and see a lot of labour sympathisers, who burble on about how we should all pay more tax, from financial positions much more comfortable than my own, who appear to have no conception about how their willingness to be generous with other peoples' money might actually affect those less well off than themselves. I could draw certain conclusions about labour voters on that basis, but that would be stupid, as I'm sure you'd agree.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 12:46:57

Precisely. (Well, most of the time.) But I think we're actually arguing the exact same thing. I think I was trying to use the BNP as an example of why political views are quite serious indicators of whether you can get on. I just don't think it worked- due to my laziness in phrasing.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 12:48:49

why are you so 'defensive' about this reactionary? have you unrequited love for a Labour voter? have you been spurned? is it a tragic tale? grin

stubbornstains Fri 11-May-12 12:55:06

I did date a Tory. We didn't talk about party politics for quite a while- I only realised he was a Conservative voter some months in.

Although, superficially, we had the same interests, and talked mainly about those- self-sufficiency, the environment, etc., after a while the cracks started to show. His views that only some people "deserved" to be treated on the NHS. His contempt for single mothers (I went on to be one). The fact that, although he pays no tax (offshore job) he felt it acceptable to look down on some of the poorest members of society as "scroungers".

We split up. You can't escape fundamental incompatibilities.

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 12:56:31

My difficulty with labour voters, bejeezus, is that they generally bore the tits off me.
as you so demonstrate so skilfully.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 12:57:31

That is a worry.

Do you find they come off quite easily?

Perhaps some glue might help?

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 12:59:08

The left attempts humour.
Never a good idea.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-May-12 13:00:32

Can you imagine if comedians were only allowed to be right-wing grin

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 13:03:21

But it is interesting that the only person being rude and unpleasant is yourself, Reactionary

headfairy Fri 11-May-12 13:10:10

My dh claims he's a dyed in the wool Tory, but whenever he's filled in those questionnaires that determine your political leanings he's always come out quite far on the left. As someone who's grown up in a part of the country that doesn't vote (Channel Islands) I don't really think he totally gets what the Tories stand for, although he feels he should vote for them because that's what most of the Channel Islands would vote for if they could (they've done dummy elections). I think he's more lefty than he realises though, very much a supporter of the welfare state, but maybe that's because they dont' have one and he appreciates ours.

GrendelsMum Fri 11-May-12 13:13:12

I don't vote Conservative myself, but my DH does. It doesn't bother me, any more than the fact that I'm a Christian and he's an atheist bothers him. He's a 'typical' Tory entrepreneur - I'm a left-winger working for a charity. As a lot of people have said, we've got the same moral compass, and we're both very appreciative of the values of each others work. I think our lives would be a great deal poorer if we hadn't benefited from each others' viewpoint on the world.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 13:18:36

so reactionary your answer to my OP would be YANBU, because in fact you would find yourself incompatible with a person of the left-wing persuasion on account of them being too boring

that wasnt too difficult was it?

boschy Fri 11-May-12 13:19:16

I do always think the Tories have a better class of scandal though - usually involving sex; the Left scandals always involve money somewhere along the line, which would seem to suggest that the champagne tastes of the socialists need propping up a bit?

just doing a mental rundown of politicians; Robin Cook; Tone; Gordon; Millibands oh my god just NO. Clegg no way. Dave; Gideon another no. Alan Clark - maybe, just maybe, because I think he'd have been outrageous.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 13:21:29

humour is subjective
as demonstrated by the success of Bernard Manning

flatpackhamster Fri 11-May-12 13:21:59

HullyGully

"Gracious.

What a lot of people you have met and yet they were all lovely except Guardian readers.

Do try harder."

That wasn't what I wrote so I will reiterate it in the hope that this time you'll read it. I said that there were some unpleasant people but political ideology wasn't a guide to that unpleasantness, and but the only 'group' who consistently treated me like dirt were the wealthy middle-class urbanite lefties who read the Guardian. They all voted Labour, naturally, in solidarity with the poor people who did their laundry and looked after their kids.

bezeezus
"flatpack so I take it you dont have any criteria of what makes a good life partner? Or what makes 2 people compatible?"

Life partner? I thought this was about dating someone? I don't think politics needs to intrude in to a relationship. There's plenty to talk about and do that doesn't involve going on Throw The Jew Down The Well marches with the Socialist Worker's Party. I think that if there are two people with very strong divergenty beliefs on politics that will end badly quite quickly. But even then that isn't always the case because everything else between them may just work.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 13:23:17

Um

I'm having a lot of trouble spotting the semantic differences there.

Perhaps it's me.

whothefuckputmeincharge Fri 11-May-12 13:24:44

Up until the last GE I would have said YADNBU.

But both DH and I tactically voted Lib Dem to avoid a Tory Government.

<pops into confessional box>

I, dear reader, am married to a temporary Tory wanker! And indeed, by trying to be clever, have turned myself into one.

<goes off to scrub oneself and practice voting communist next time!>

CaptainHetty Fri 11-May-12 13:30:43

I'm having a child with one grin

Wouldn't say he's a particularly passionate person about politics, though. We do have opposing political views, but it doesn't automatically make us incompatible. There are many, many things we have in common, and the odd minor disagreement on political issues is just a drop in the ocean, really. We've never really clashed over it, it usually ends with him calling me a communist and me calling him a Tory twat. It's all in jest grin

MrJasc Fri 11-May-12 13:33:16

I wouldn’t want to date an authoritarian of any stripe, so Labour and Tories are both out.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 13:48:20

hmmmm...interesting J...so you look for apolitical partners?

MrJasc Fri 11-May-12 14:00:35

Not at all. I am very happy with highly political partners, just wouldn't find it easy getting on with authoritarians. There are many UK parties who don't fall into that category.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 14:18:22

ReactionaryFish i think I know who you are but go on, PM me grin

I;d like to reiterate that I have no problem with having friends across the political spectrum- just that I look for someone very different in a partner. I have dated tories- everything from the level of a poster of Maggie above the bed through to disinterested borderline UKIP- and it hasn't worked partly because of ideology but also because I am one of those people who is hyperpoliticised I guess, and heck I have had Universities chasing ME to sign up for hteir Social Policy courses LMAO, and since then an offer of an MRes on poverty and childhoopd*, although i stuck with the MA I am doing.

But I had more respect for the tories than the ex who campiagned tory with his Mum so they kept in with the neighbours but both secretly voted lib Dem- WTF?

*Apols for typing, migraine yesterday so can;t wear glasses today.

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 14:19:33

only if you promise not to blow my cover
i have people after me you know

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 14:19:37

I would not say I am hyper Labour either mind.

I am me, leftie and happy with it- don;t think there is anyone out there really represents my views. i go with best fit, which is actually flexible.

Peachy Fri 11-May-12 14:19:48

PMSL RF

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 14:20:52

I'm not fucking joking you know!
there were crazy people after me. I have to stay in disguise.
You must promise

MoreBeta Fri 11-May-12 14:23:35

headfairy - I fill in those questionnaires too. I come out near Ghandi but voted UKIP in the local elections and think that Cameron needs to move to the right to get relected.

<perhaps its because I almost went to live in Guernsey?>

takingbackmonday Fri 11-May-12 14:27:31

I would find it very hard to date a left winger, but then I work in politics for the right...

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 11-May-12 14:34:01

This thread rather neatly illustrates why I could never date a Leftie!

flatpackhamster Fri 11-May-12 14:36:52

HullyGully

"Um

I'm having a lot of trouble spotting the semantic differences there.

Perhaps it's me."

It does rather seem that way, doesn't it?

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 14:46:09

Um

okay doke

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 14:51:33

Left wingers aren't that bright in my experience. I would find it hard to date a man who was that naive about the world. Me and my partner are both very working class and our parents were Labour voters (mine switched to Lib Dem though). But the left now is nothing like the left that existed back in the day, it's all posh people and public sector types.

issimma Fri 11-May-12 14:53:09

I've always veered left, but thinking about it, the most judgmental people I've met have been staunch socialists. A housemate fell out with me because I'd been to a 'Tory' uni (despite being a paid up member if their active labour group), and former leftie colleagues mock my lifestyle now for being 'Tory'. Makes me want to veer right, as it's so bloody ridiculous.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-May-12 14:53:17

Wow you have an err healthy sense of self esteem there

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 11-May-12 14:53:46

Xposted, my post was to Josephine

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 14:54:52

It's interesting that the right always call the left naive.

So acknowledging that a lot of people are greedy nasty and selfish, but wouldn't it be good if we worked for a better world, is naive?

I'd call it loving and humanitarian.

Accepting that the world is nasty brutish and capitalist and we should all go hell for leather dog eat dog is far worse.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 14:55:08

josephine that is something I have found about right wingers;
left wingers disagree with right wingers because they believe right wingers are wrong.

Right wingers always assume an air of superiority and assume left-wingers are such because they 'dont understand' and are less clever

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 14:56:13

x posted hully

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 14:56:51

I;ve noticed the left hates the right far more than vice versa.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 14:57:22

And it's so much easier to dismiss ideas you don't like as "naive" to justify your own greedy selfish motives as you trample folk to get to the top of the heap.

WhippingGirl Fri 11-May-12 14:57:27

Yanbu. I married a Tory . Huge mistake never again. I'm a proud lefty smile

WhippingGirl Fri 11-May-12 14:59:02

Tories ai know vote that way because they are naive. I have deconstructed many an argument with actual knowledge of social policy as opposed to something they read in the torgraph.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 15:00:44

absolutely whippinggirl.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 15:02:50

I don't want to divert the thread massively, but I also want to know what a "tory lifestyle" could possibly be. Do you go to dinners at the local Conservative Club?

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 15:04:13

My dad used to go to the Con Club. It had a line painted round the bar that the Ladeez couldn't cross...

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 15:05:21

"It's interesting that the right always call the left naive.

So acknowledging that a lot of people are greedy nasty and selfish, but wouldn't it be good if we worked for a better world, is naive?

I'd call it loving and humanitarian.

Accepting that the world is nasty brutish and capitalist and we should all go hell for leather dog eat dog is far worse."

you may be full of shit, hully, but your ability to pack multiple unexamined assumptions into a very small number of words is remarkable.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 15:07:21

You may be humourless, rude and downright unpleasant, RF but your inability to rebut any point with a modicum of intelligence and reason is remarkable.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 15:08:51

josephine Im not sure i agree with you-maybe there is more disdain towards the right

My revulsion is due in part because of the lack of compassion; and the ideologies embodied by the MT quote;

' ^ there is no such thing as society^'

I cannot stand 'selfish' in any arena.

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 15:09:01

Imitation is always the sincerest form of flattery.
Keep trying, love.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 15:13:11

I never stop trying.

I want the world to be a better place not the nasty place you inhabit, RF

HmmThinkingAboutIt Fri 11-May-12 15:13:21

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 12:33:47
Hmmthinkingaboutit, I disagree entirely with the sentiment of your post.
You think you shouldn't choose friends and partners 'simply' because of how they vote. But how they vote underpins their entire character, it is not like which brand of tea bags they use!

Where exactly does it leave us swing voters, who have voted for all three parties and do pick the party they vote for based on their taste at that moment in time then?

I don't believe in voting being like supporting a football team. I believe in voting according the policies, people and world we currently live in at that moment in time. Sadly, most people on this thread seem to think everything is set in stone and there is no ground whatsoever in between and have no interest in trying to find that middle ground.

If I ruled people out on that basis, I'd have no friends and I wouldn't be married. I think everyone has something to offer and I wouldn't dismiss them PURELY on how they voted. I would dismiss them on their refusal to accept that even within groups there is a wide range of views and indeed bigotted idiots incapable and unwilling to look at things from various perspectives. Inflexibility and intolerance of anything are the deal breakers for me, not how someone votes ultimately.

I'm pretty much of the opinion, you can nearly always fine some merit in someone else's political opinion even if you generally disagree with their pov. To be dismissive of everything they say, because you have some screwed up stereotype in your head and instead of treating every single person as an individual is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 15:17:17

That must be why you start all those threads calling people you disagree with cunts, hully. You just want to make the world a better place.

WithACherryOnTop Fri 11-May-12 15:18:08

Probably not,but then I know I couldn't date an extreme left winger either.They infuriate me too.

That said,I am in a relationship with someone who is from a very similar background to your stereotypical Conservative,but he doesn't vote for them.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 15:18:12

Oh dear.

Is that the best you can do?

tsk

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 15:23:16

Let us unite please (or possibly divide further) by discussing a different political movement. There's such a range, from communism at one end to market-anarchy, at the other.

flatpackhamster Fri 11-May-12 15:23:40

bejeezus

Have you ever looked at that quote in context? I know that the Looney Left loves to claim that proves Margaret Thatcher was evil, but have you ever read the full quote? Here it is below.

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand"I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!" or"I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!" "I am homeless, the Government must house me!" and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first.

It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations..."

She was saying that people should help each other and not wait around for the government to do it.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 15:25:45

That's not what Jesus said.

But then he was a bastard communist. No wonder the church did for him.

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 15:26:12

And she was right. Blind reliance on the state has lead us down a very dark path.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 15:28:20

Incidentally, I think there will be another BNP candidate standing in my area next general election. How do I persuade my mother not to vot for him/her/bigot it?

She's started saying that they support women's right to be in the home, and when I said I thought they saw it more as a duty, than a right, she looked at me blankly.

I've tried quoting bits from their website, but she just dismissed me.

AdoraBell Fri 11-May-12 15:30:28

I don't care what a person's political stand point is, I would be interested in the way they treat me, and others, and they way I feel about and around them.

Just to clarify, I was raised by a life long labour supporting violent controlling father. Had a staunch left wing abusive boyfriend, as did my sister. Being a Labour supporter doesn't make a person better, it's just their political preference.

Hullygully Fri 11-May-12 15:31:55

Pre WW2 we had workhouses and early death and lots of suffering.

Post WW2, as a result of the war and the suffering before and during, the Beveridge Report was commissioned which suggested that the only way t acieve any kind of fairness was to put in place safety nets. There was agreement by all political parties to introduce free healthcare at the point of need and a free, and standardised, education for all.

This produced a society that kept people fed and alive and even literate. Better than we had ever had.

Now we are going backwards. Now we are going to a very dark place where families are homeless and people are relying on food banks.

And don't bother with the "it was unsustainable." It wasn't and isn't.

MrJasc Fri 11-May-12 15:37:44

TheBigJessie. If she's traditionally a tory then try pointing out that on economic policy the BNP are to the left of Labour. They get called far right because they are nationalists/racists/bigots. In things like housing, health and transport they are normally quite far to the left.

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 15:40:01

What the last Labour government was doing WAS unsustainable. They were spending more than they had coming in during an economic boom.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 15:47:05

Ah, yes. That's part of the problem. She was originally very hard left. Harder left than anyone on this thread! She has always had a bee in her bonnet about "mothers being forced out to work", but none of the political parties ever used it as a platform before, so she voted on other things.

And compared to the labour party she knew in her youth, it's quite right wing now.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 15:54:45

What MT did to this country is the reason so many people rely on the state

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 15:58:17

In what way?

chris481 Fri 11-May-12 16:01:35

This thread has confirmed both sides of my maxim:-

The left thinks they are on the correct side of a good-evil axis.
The right thinks they are on the correct side of a clever-stupid axis.

Many left-wing posters in this thread for whom it is a given that left = good. If you believe that, then it is easy to justify hatred of the right. To the extent that being a hater makes someone a worse person, ironically this makes the left on average more evil, in my view.

I don't believe peoples stated beliefs are a guide to character. To elaborate, judge people by what they do, not what they say. Most people inherit their beliefs. Hating someone for their stated politics is similar to hating them for their religion.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 16:09:33

The conservatives have opposed the welfare system since before it was introduced

It is called social security for a reason

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 16:10:09

Hmmthinkingaboutit - I see what you mean but there are certain people who always vote the same way and I approached this thread with that mind set I suppose.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 16:13:26

In the way that she smashed the mill and manufacuring and other industries to smithereens, and lft a huge workforce with nice work today

Not everyone is an entrepreneur or academic or has abilities in blue collar work. It doesn't make them lazy spongers

Have to go now, BBL

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 16:17:14

'Many left-wing posters in this thread for whom it is a given that left = good. If you believe that, then it is easy to justify hatred of the right. To the extent that being a hater makes someone a worse person, ironically this makes the left on average more evil, in my view.'

What about those on the right who have contempt for the concept of collective responsibility?

I don't hate people - I am not a 'hater' but I deeply resent the way that the tories are hell bent on dismantling the state, deficit or no deficit (good excuse for them). It makes me angry to see them openly shit on disabled people, particularly as my daughter will always rely on the state as there is no way she will ever work or live independently. They know that people will suffer as a result of their policies but they don't care.

Those are the reasons for the hateful remarks you've noticed. Some people are angry.

usualsuspect Fri 11-May-12 16:21:51

No I could never date a Tory.

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 16:28:34

'Most people inherit their beliefs.'

Actually, this is sometimes true. A friend of mine voted conservative only because her parents do. She is a public sector worker and 2 months later was holding her breath to see whether she would be one of the 5/7 people in her department who was going to lose their job.

MrsBethel Fri 11-May-12 16:31:11

YABU OP.
Three reasons:

1) There is very little to separate the Tories and Labour. Their policies are much more similar than they are different. Labour had its own austerity proposals which were within a nat's fart of the Tories'.

2) They are both wrong on most key issues. They are both very illiberal in their own verious ways.

3) They are both a million miles to the left of Obama's Democrat party. Would you say you can't date Obama because he's too much of a fascist?

RoloTamasi Fri 11-May-12 16:41:26

I'd have trouble dating anyone who was extremely closed-minded in their political views.

I am right wing. Whilst I agree with many of the left's social ideas, I agree with the right's approach to the economy, and in the present climate I have to say that economic issues are of far greater importance. If we don't sort the country out, there very shortly won't be any money to implement any social policies, however deserving people are.

I dislike short-termist reactionary thinking from either side of the spectrum. Consequently I'm not very impressed with any of the main parties right now...

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Fri 11-May-12 16:51:58

This thread is bonkers. How would you even ask about somebody's politics if you were to start dating them? Why would you? Would you not see what sort of person they are without attaching goodness knows what labels.

I think people are fundamental good, kind, generous, selfish, lazy and inconsiderate regardless of their politics.

People who blether on about the Tories seem to be entirely blinkered to the foibles of the Lib Dems, Labour and any other party. Labour were in power for goodness knows how many years... and what a mess. All politicians LIE, no matter what party they belong to.

It all just sounds horribly ignorant and pitch-forky... and quite stupid really. Keep your politics to yourself - same goes for religion - and there's nothing to argue about. Perhaps some people just love to argue/live to argue...

usualsuspect Fri 11-May-12 16:55:21

How can you keep your politic opinions to yourself?

Surely the things you believe in make you what you are

HmmThinkingAboutIt Fri 11-May-12 16:57:08

perceptionreality, its not who they are voting for thats the problem, but the way they vote. People don't vote in the same way or for the same party all for the same reason. You can vote for X party, and not be X. In fact just as many people are more motived to vote to prevent something rather than to support something else these days.

I think you need to look in detail at the reasons behind why people vote, as much as the beliefs you think that might represent. A few people have pointed out about the left seeing the right as evil etc and act accordingly, which is as ignorant as any other form of bigotry out there. There can be a huge range of views within a party. Eg The Tory party for example has a reputation for being anti-europe. And yet you had people like Michael Hesseltine in it. They have a mixture of business type and christian types who make up a large part of their ranks. I don't think for one second they share the same points of view on a lot of issues.

Just because you are part of a group does not mean to say you sign up to every belief that it has. If you are prepared to defend every belief it has without question and without having the courage to say, "um actually I was wrong" THEN you are an idiot.

Equally, the converse is true. If you think that everyone in that party or votes for that party believes and supports every single thing on that manifesto, then you are an idiot too.

As for collective responsibility. I have to say its a two way street. Not enough ordinary people have done this yet imho. I favour politics becoming much more long termist and less popularist tbh as all the political parties pandering to that, are behind a lot of problems we now face.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Fri 11-May-12 17:00:26

Sure they are, usualsuspect but how can you boil them down into politics when many people, (myself included), believe a range of things that would cut across all of the manifestos.

Does anybody seriously think that everybody in the tory, labour, lib dem or whatever party believe all the same things? Same goes for religion, you can ascribe to one particular one yet still find merit in others and perhaps disagree with your own.

I just get fed up reading stupid 'X-bashing' comments. 'X' of course is anything that the pitchfork brigade decide on that morning.

Whatmeworry Fri 11-May-12 17:04:26

There is quite a lot of stuff coming out about how brain wiring drives political affiliiation, see this summary on Wikipedia and this wiring also tends to have associated traits

For eg as a rule "Liberals" are more open to new experiences, "Conservatives" are more conscientous about getting stuff done.

Alpha males trend Conservative, and "the results from many previous studies in other nations, support that high intelligence is associated with supporting centrist, meritocratic positions. High intelligence is also associated with having any political opinions at all."

Personally i find zealots/extremists of any stripe to be both the stupidest and evilest.

Whatmeworry Fri 11-May-12 17:05:39

Forgot to mention that as its due to wiring and has survived this long, there are probably strong survival benefits in having people with both conservative and liberal leanings.

usualsuspect Fri 11-May-12 17:06:28

I just know I could never date someone who had views that were totally the opposite to mine .

I'm quite happy knowing that a Tory would never date me too grin

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Fri 11-May-12 17:08:16

Oh absolutely, Whatmeworry, it's absolutely scientific - totally reliable as irrefutable proof. It's right up there with the Zodiac. Apparently, if you're a Capricorn, you're hardworking and conscientious about getting stuff done... imagine if you were a tory as well as a Capricorn, you'd be unstoppable. grin

Completely agree with you about zealots and extremists... they should be put into a soundproof room, the doors sealed and leave them to bore each other to death.

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 17:11:28

You can't keep politics to yourself within a marriage really. Particularly if you have children. You do have to be able to agree, or agree to disagree at least.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Fri 11-May-12 17:15:32

Why can't you keep it to yourself? I know plenty of couples who vote for different parties and they don't discuss politics because they know they will argue.

Whether you have children or not is irrelevant. You agree a way to bring them up - what religion they will be (if any), where they will go to school and in what medium, etc.

Politics doesn't define a person - or it shouldn't.

PoppyWearer Fri 11-May-12 17:16:35

I'm married to a Tory-voting Capricorn. Luckily he pours his energy into work. Pity me when he retires. grin

I am neither Tory nor Capricorn! The politics can cause ructions but I try to stay apolitical around him.

Fortunately I know I am his intellectual superior. grin

HmmThinkingAboutIt Fri 11-May-12 17:17:45

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 17:11:28
You can't keep politics to yourself within a marriage really. Particularly if you have children. You do have to be able to agree, or agree to disagree at least.

Which is about respect or sharing something. And really fuck all to do with politics. It could be about what colour the bathroom is painted and why tbh.

perceptionreality Fri 11-May-12 17:19:30

Politics doesn't define a person but it does underpin your values.

Whatmeworry Fri 11-May-12 17:20:30

Oh absolutely, Whatmeworry, it's absolutely scientific - totally reliable as irrefutable proof. It's right up there with the Zodiac

Well, the brain stuff has been gaethering so i think there is something in it. But I am shocked that you are casting doubts on the accuracy of the Zodiac grin

Heleninahandcart Fri 11-May-12 17:33:06

It would depend on what other values they had to redeem themselves as my own values and beliefs are a very important part of who I am. I could not date someone who had values that I despised or who did not respect mine. I never have dated a Tory, have tried to be more open minded and then they go and start speaking.

YANBU

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 17:36:03

Can you tell a Tory just from hearing them speak?

Nancy66 Fri 11-May-12 17:38:35

Politics are one of the things I care least about in a mate.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 17:45:55

Political viewpoints aren't just about what box you tend to tick every 4-5 years. People keep that to themselves easily, but I can't imagine being happy while keeping quiet about the whole of it, during my home life, for fifty plus years.

<Imagines trying to watch the news, while carefully only uttering neutral viewpoints every day>

An ordinary human interest news item can elicit quite different responses, "from she needs to sort herself out" to "someone should be helping her"

Want2bSupermum Fri 11-May-12 17:47:01

YANBU - While I am conservative I am no fan of the Conservative Party. I dated a Tory boy and he dumped me because my father operated his business in Sweden and he said it would affect his career in politics. I said he should speak to my father and get some ideas on why he operated his business in Sweden and see if those can be introduced to the UK (low corporate tax rate, highly educated workforce and little red tape).

I avoided all boys who were into politics from that point forward and turned a guy down because he didn't vote and didn't see the big deal. My grandfather didn't get sunk 3 times on a ship for some pretentious git to think voting is not important.

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 17:47:28

Josephine depends what you are discussing surely

Nancy66 Fri 11-May-12 17:49:55

....plus political beliefs really change as you get older.

I was always a leftie, CND, up the workers type - now I'm a frothing-at-the-mouth Tory

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 17:50:26

Exactly bigjessie

Whatmeworry Fri 11-May-12 17:54:46

....plus political beliefs really change as you get older

There is nothing so conservative as an ageing radical, as they say :-)

I am amazed at how rightwing some of my old left wing friends from Uni are now they have the House in a leafy suburb, German Car and Perfect Offspring :-)

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Fri 11-May-12 17:55:50

Whatmeworry... Never! The Zodiac is sacrosanct! Even as a sceptical Aquarian, I know this to be true. wink

poppywearer... there's always ONE! grin You should be in for a treat when your husband retires if you give him some nice challenging - and time measurable - tasks to perform.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Fri 11-May-12 17:58:56

I've come to the conclusion that, as a people, we love to analyse other people and put them in their respective 'boxes' with the appropriate 'labels'. Whether we're right or wrong in that packaging activity doesn't seem to matter a jot. However, we don't much like the same thing applied to US... it's very, very odd.

I will not be boxed or labeled. So there! wink

PoppyWearer Fri 11-May-12 17:59:52

bigjessie what I do is avoid watching the news together as much as possible. I read my news online. But that's because we have two young DCs and I just lack the energy to have a political argument at the moment.

To make it more interesting, Tory-voting DH studied Politics and I studied History. So he talks about current policies...and then I remind him of how the Tories stuffed everything up in the 80s. grin

And then I remind him that I have a degree from one of the top universities in the world, and that his is from a red-brick university.

And equilibrium is restored! grin

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 18:07:04

The Tories didn't stuff everything up in the 80s though. They did what had to be done. Do you really think we could have kept on subsidising failing industries, and that we would still be paying crazy wages for people to make cars that nobody wanted to buy, and coal that could be bought far more cheaply elsewhere? The world changed. This country had to change, because it couldn't afford to keep spending money to artificially keep things the same.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 18:11:23

It's like astrology really. I can be nice about it to friends and family, and change the subject, and all that, but I couldn't cope with perpetual horoscopes being applied to our lives by my husband. I'd have to leave the bastard!

CockyPants Fri 11-May-12 18:11:46

Better a Tory than a so called new labour. At least you know where you stand with Tories, whereas Labour preaches one thing while sending kids to private schools dodging tax and sipping champers...what a bunch of wanky two faced toads...

marshmallowpies Fri 11-May-12 18:16:51

Glad to say my parents have stayed very left wing into their 60's/70's - so not everyone goes to the right!

My dad was so proud that I went on the Stop the War march back in 2003 & said he wished he'd gone on it himself. My mum marched in support of the miners back in the day and is now an environmental campaigner & chair of a wildlife charity.

DH does keep his mouth shut when visiting my folks: they don't know he secretly likes Top Gear & the Grand Prix, let alone votes Tory...

I've never asked DH how he votes because voting is absolutely a private Personal decision. However I knew when we got together we had the same basic morals. Over time (and many discussions) it's obvious I'm more left-wing than DH if I had to say what he voted then I'd say liberal. But just as I wouldn't tolerate DH telling me how to vote I wouldn't expect to influence his voting.

We do have pretty healthy debates and some topics we've agreed to just not discuss any more but on matters such as equality, the welfare system etc we agree and I'm ok with that

EdlessAllenPoe Fri 11-May-12 18:23:26

the irony here is that at a time when there is little difference in the substance offered by the two main parties, people still think that there is.

and the folks in the houses of parliament have really good friends on the opposite benches.

i think you can go out with who the hell you want, but i think making simple sweeping judgements about the opinions and motivations of large swathes of the population makes you look close minded.

LynetteScavo Fri 11-May-12 18:29:21

OP, YANBU.

But I've noticed Conservatives tend to be better looking.

Their suits are sharper, and they seem to be richer tend to flash their money more.

Just saying.

And I do like a chap in a sharp suit.

TheBigJessie Fri 11-May-12 18:39:38

Lynette Yes, but so many professional politicians are lying bastards!

Check his expenses account records first!

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 18:56:03

The Tories didn't stuff everything up in the 80s though. They did what had to be done. Do you really think we could have kept on subsidising failing industries, and that we would still be paying crazy wages for people to make cars that nobody wanted to buy, and coal that could be bought far more cheaply elsewhere? The world changed. This country had to change, because it couldn't afford to keep spending money to artificially keep things the same

Josephine For the sake of arguement, say this is fact; what about the workers left without jobs?-not just a handful; whole communities; huge swathes of the country. Is it OK to vilify them because their way of supporting their families no longer exists? Call them scrounging scum and take away their benefits?

There was no consideration for these people when those decisions were made. They dont matter. You can be damn straight it wouldnt have been 'unavoidable changes' if the middle/upper classes were the ones who would be affected

ReactionaryFish Fri 11-May-12 19:17:17

What a very civilised way to deal with things, Chrysanthemum. I now have a lovely picture of you and your dh sitting round, sipping G&Ts, reading the papers and agreeing to disagree on all the issues of the day.

EdlessAllenPoe Fri 11-May-12 19:20:34

i think i agree with everything mrs bethel has said.

take a look at the political compass

and see where you really sit!

Heleninahandcart Fri 11-May-12 19:21:23

Josephine yes, speak, write whatever, it soon becomes apparent if someone has views and values I would find abhorrent.

JennyPiccolo Fri 11-May-12 19:22:09

I've genuinely never met a heterosexual Tory voter. I've only met about three though.

thefurryone Fri 11-May-12 19:29:45

bejeezus good job that period was followed by 13 years of labour government during which they could right those wrongs and get the country back on track hmm

I think this is why despite being broadly left-wing I could never vote labour, they spent 13 years in power blaming the Tories for all the bad things, totally fucked the economy by basing growth around unsustainable government and consumer debt. Got voted out and then suddenly everything is the Tories fault again because they're in charge again even if it has only been for 10 minutes.

Don't get me wrong I think the Tories are clearly wrong about many things but generally find New Labour the more odious option, because they pretend to be socialised whereas they are clearly just tories in disguise.

EdlessAllenPoe Fri 11-May-12 19:32:01

jenny i once had a boyfriend who maintained that more Southern men were gay than Northern ones.

Are you he?

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 19:38:48

There was no consideration for these people when those decisions were made. They dont matter. You can be damn straight it wouldnt have been 'unavoidable changes' if the middle/upper classes were the ones who would be affected
Exactly what "considerations" could have been made? I live in a former mining/industrial area (Chesterfield) and plenty of people that did lose their jobs in the early 80s moved on with their lives. My dad was one of them. But he realised before that that the way things were were unsustainable, earning £500 a week for working down a mine. He and my mum planned for this, bought their house while it was cheap and payed off the mortgage withing a few years. Plenty of other people spent their wages on beer and holidays, thinking it would last forever. Then when the mines and factories closed, turned their noses up and jobs paying considerably less than they had been earning, and chose to remain on benefits, thinking they were spiting the Tories by doing so.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Fri 11-May-12 19:42:32

EdlessAllenPoe "the irony here is that at a time when there is little difference in the substance offered by the two main parties, people still think that there is."

Ah. But.

If you'd been told in April 2010 that even though all their manifestos looked similar, only one major party had an undeclared but fully-formed scheme to get big chunks of the NHS into private hands. For example.

Which would you have guessed?

Even though they all make the same noises, the underlying principles guiding each party are still predictable. IMO. (Well, except the New Labour thing, that's just an aberration.)

marriedinwhite Fri 11-May-12 19:43:24

There is absolutely no way I could have married a leftie.

Gooshka Fri 11-May-12 19:47:25

Definitely NOT being unreasonable!!!! grin

HumphreyCobbler Fri 11-May-12 19:49:37

there is no way I could have dated a pompous arse, left wing or right wing.

I am so glad I mix with people of all political persuasions - some of my best friends are lefties.

thefurryone Fri 11-May-12 19:52:54

Edless that link is brilliant thank you

JennyPiccolo Fri 11-May-12 20:07:00

Haha, no I'm in glasgow, there's a paucity of tories round here. Gay men are ten a penny though.

JosephineCD Fri 11-May-12 20:27:49

There might be more gay men IN the south than up north, since more gay men from the north move down to places like London or Brighton than gay men from the south move up north.

Facebookhurtsmybrain Fri 11-May-12 20:32:41

YANBU I could never be with someone that believed the crap that Cameron sprouts. It would be like marrying a racist or a Everton supporter

EdlessAllenPoe Fri 11-May-12 21:00:33

you are aware of the many public-private deals done under the previous administration, are you not?

many aspects of the nhs were outsourced more than two years ago!

EdlessAllenPoe Fri 11-May-12 21:04:26

he thought more gay men were born down South.

he thought this because he didn't know many openly gay men.

confused

maybe if he didn't live in an area where open homophobia was acceptable...he'd have seen different.

tethersend Fri 11-May-12 21:06:20

Debate is an aphrodisiac.

So I definitely would.

No I wouldn't.

Yes I would.

<swoons>

EdlessAllenPoe Fri 11-May-12 21:07:31

i did marry an Everton supporter.

Derby day is always fun smile

Whatmeworry Fri 11-May-12 21:12:06

And yet most women put eyes, Gsoh and cute bum on their lonely hearts ads smile

threeleftfeet Fri 11-May-12 21:16:10

YANBU! I couldn't date a tory.

I'd feel terribly ashamed I'd I slept with one!

Takver Fri 11-May-12 21:16:38

I did date a Tory, back when I was a teenager - his right-left politics weren't a deal breaker (though I can't imagine it would ever have been a long term thing it made for lots of interesting discussion), but the fact that he hadn't really 'got' feminism definitely was.

So I guess I could cope with different politics, but definitely not misogyny (and as above also not racism/homophobia).

bejeezus Fri 11-May-12 21:19:31

josephine YY there are many many stories of people who rose to the challenge, bettered themselves, did well..my dad is also one. It doesnt mean it was that easy. It doesnt mean the people who havent done well are feckless and lazy

You cant have a country full of well-off people. It wouldnt work for the people at the top..they would no longer be so relatively wealthy. A boom and bust economy is ideal for them. So there will always be a bottom rung. Whether that is a moral system is one arguement. Even if you agree it is, you shouldnt then turn round and vilify those that are on it.

Facebookhurtsmybrain Fri 11-May-12 21:22:30

I lived in halls with a girl who had a picture of Maggie Thatcher on her bedroom wall. I thought it was a joke until I started laughing and she looked like I had slapped her grandmother in the face. I told her I could never be friends until it came down, she never took it down and we never became friends. And her boyfriend supported Everton, made for one another

jabberwocky Fri 11-May-12 21:23:30

yanbu! My first husband was very conservative. After getting out of that relationship I swore I would never get involved with anyone who had the opposite political ideals.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Fri 11-May-12 21:24:26

Yeah, I am aware of the growing love-in of all parties with the private sector. But if you were forced to pop down to Ladbrokes and put a tenner on...!

scummymummy Fri 11-May-12 21:28:13

If s/he was a Tory who cared about social justice and was very sexy I would consider it. But even one of these essential attributes in a Tory is vanishingly unlikely, ime, let alone both...

Annpan88 Fri 11-May-12 21:43:35

I'm very left wing, and married to a Tory. When we got engaged I had texts from my family saying "so your marrying a tory farmer boy"

I love him and I think he knows deep down he's wrong grin thats what keeps me going

tethersend Fri 11-May-12 21:49:20

I can beat that, Facebookhurts- one of my first friends at art school took me back to his parents' house where a life-size framed portrait in oils of the great woman was displayed proudly above the mantelpiece grin

LoopyLoopsTootTootToots Fri 11-May-12 21:50:41

I turned mine. When I met DH he was possibly even more right-wing than a tory. Now he votes for me Green.

Facebookhurtsmybrain Fri 11-May-12 21:52:07

noooooooooo lol. I so would of uploaded a picture of that to facebook.

PoppyWearer Fri 11-May-12 22:03:11

In spite of his political leanings, DH did a pretty good job of getting a reluctant DD to bed tonight. And then poured me a glass of wine. And now we're watching a film. More to a relationship than politics! <snuggles into MrW>

NovackNGood Fri 11-May-12 22:08:07

I get the impression from this that fiscal responsibility is not too high on many a persons list for a good mate. smile

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