Where is the fucking justice for Trayvon Martin? a 17 year old INNOCENT CHILD shot to death simply because he was walking in his father's gated community.

(940 Posts)
chewchewmeaw Sat 17-Mar-12 19:10:18

Why in gods hell has that MURDERER not been arrested?

Are they looking for riots? they will happen if Zimmerman is not brought to justice. I am so sickened by this.

I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't heard this story yet - very slow in reporting it.

He was begging for his life': Family's anger as police finally play 911 calls made by neighborhood watch captain who shot black teen

Trayvon Martin,17, was shot dead by George Zimmerman, 28, last month, who claims the killing was self defense and has not been charged
Police finally gave into mounting pressure on Friday and released eight 911 calls
The teen's family say the calls show Zimmerman was the 'aggressor' not Trayvon


The police have finally released the 911 calls made in relation to the killing of an unarmed black teenager who was shot by a white neighborhood watch captain.
George Zimmerman, 28, had called 911 to report a suspicious man and can be heard pursuing Trayvon Martin, 17, on foot against the dispatcher's advice causing the teen to run away.
Moments later the police are bombarded with calls from terrified neighbors as a voice in the background can be heard desperately screaming for help before the sound of two gun shots.
When police arrived at Florida's Retreat at Twin Lakes Townhomes they found Trayvon, who had been returning from a store with candy for his younger brother, had been shot dead by Zimmerman.
Scroll down for video

Trayvon Martin, 17, left, was killed by George Zimmerman, 28, right, after the neighborhood watch captain pursued him as walked in a gated community
Zimmerman had called 911 after spotting the teen walking through the gated community.
'This guy looks like he is up to no good. He is on drugs or something,' Zimmerman told the dispatcher from his SUV.
He added that the black teen had his hand in his waistband and was walking around looking at homes.

More...
Teenager's death gives life to others: Organs donated by girl, 16, who died in crash provide new hope for the desperately ill
'These a-------. They always get away,' Zimmerman said on a 911 call.
During Zimmerman's initial call, he told the dispatcher he was following Martin and the dispatcher told him, 'You don't need to do that.'
But Zimmerman sounds as if he continues to pursue the teen saying: 'He ran.'
Scroll down for video

In Zimmerman's 911 call he said Martin, pictured, looked like he 'up to no good' and on drugs as the teen returned home with skittles for his brother
He then refuses to meet police officers at an agreed location and asks for them to call him on arrival instead so he can tell them where he is.
Sanford police officials, who have not charged Zimmerman after accepting his claim that his actions were in self defense, finally released eight 911 calls on Friday after mounting pressure.
Martin's family had demanded the release of the calls to help better understand how Martin died while walking home from a convenience store last month.
'He was yelling for help, and no one could help him. He saw his life being taken away from him,' the teen's father Tracy Martin said.
He said they will continue pushing for charges to be filed against Zimmerman.
'We’re hoping this doesn’t happen again to another family, and that America opens their eyes ... even though this won’t bring Trayvon back,
we don’t want there to be another Trayvon,' Mr Martin said.
Scroll down for video

The teenager's parents; mother Sabrina Fulton, right, and father Tracy Martin, left, are said to be devastated after hearing the 911 calls of their son's last moments

Benjamin Crump, the attorney for Martin's family, said that the 911 calls show that the teenager spent the last few moments of his life terrified and Zimmerman should be charged
After listening to recordings of 911 calls, Martin's family said they're more convinced than ever that the Zimmerman should be charged with a crime.
'You hear a shot, a clear shot, then you hear a 17-year-old boy begging for his life,' said Natalie Jackson, the family attorney. 'Then you hear a second shot.'
The case has been turned over to the State Attorney's Office which can decide whether to file charges or present evidence to a grand jury.
Attorney Benjamin Crump, who is also representing the family, told reporters outside Sanford City Hall that Martin's parents both broke down and cried as they listened to the recordings.
'They are completely devastated, and they are in unbelievable grief,' Crump said. 'The last seconds of his life were in absolute fear.'
Scroll down for video

Martin was visiting his father and stepmother in Sanford where they live at The Retreat at Twin Lakes, pictured, when he popped out to buy snacks for his younger brother
He added that a third witness has come forward saying it was the boy who was crying for help.
Martin's parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton, previously sued to have the recordings released. A hearing for the case had been scheduled for Monday.
Moments after Zimmerman's initial call, dispatchers were bombarded by seven 911 calls from frantic neighbors describing a fight between two men, screaming and then a gunshot.
'There is somebody screaming outside,' one female caller said, as an unknown male voice can be heard crying in the background. Then a shot is heard.
A male caller described a physical altercation between Martin and the shooter.
'I just heard a shot right behind my house,' The caller said. 'They're wrestling right behind my porch. The guy is yelling 'Help.' I'm not going outside.'

By the time police officers arrived, unarmed Trayvon, who had been carrying Skittles and soda, was dead on the ground from a single gunshot
Another woman said a man in a 'white top' was on top Trayvon.
Earlier on Friday, Martin's parents called on the FBI to take over the investigation, saying they no longer trusted the Sanford police department.
Sanford police Sgt. David Morgenstern said the department stands by its investigation but welcomes help from any outside agency. FBI agent David Couvertier said the agency has been in contact with Sanford police and is monitoring the case.
'We are committed to having somebody review this to see if we made a mistake,' said Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett. 'If we made missteps and there is something there, we will act accordingly'

Trayvon's family believe Zimmerman should be charged and brought to justice for shooting their young son
Several Sanford residents who spoke to The Associated Press said they think there would have been an arrest already if the shooter had been black and the deceased had been white.
They said blacks and whites in this city of 53,000 residents were pretty much in agreement that an injustice had been done with no one arrested, and that there was no racial divide in how the case is being perceived. The city is 57 percent white and 30 percent black.
Zimmerman's father delivered a letter to the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday, saying the way his son is being depicted in the media is cruel and misleading.
He also says his son has received death threats and moved out of his home. George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says.

chewchewmeaw Sat 17-Mar-12 19:17:56

Trayvon Martin

“He said that Tray was gone.” That’s how Sybrina Fulton, her voice full of ache, told me she found out that her 17-year-old son, Trayvon Martin, had died. In a wrenching telephone call, the boy’s father, who had taken him to visit a friend, told her that Trayvon had been gunned down in a gated townhouse community in Sanford, Fla., outside Orlando.

“He said, ‘Somebody shot Trayvon and killed him.’ And I was like, ‘Are you sure?’ ” Fulton continued in disbelief. “I said ‘How do you know that’s Trayvon?’ And he said because they showed him a picture.”

That was Feb. 27, one day after Trayvon was shot. The father thought that he was missing, according to the family’s lawyer, Benjamin Crump, but the boy’s body had actually been taken to the medical examiner’s office and listed as a John Doe.

The father called the Missing Persons Unit. No luck. Then he called 911. The police asked the father to describe the boy, after which they sent officers to the house where the father was staying. There they showed him a picture of the boy with blood coming out of his mouth.

This is a nightmare scenario for any parent, and the events leading to Trayvon’s death offer little comfort — and pose many questions.

Trayvon had left the house he and his father were visiting to walk to the local 7-Eleven. On his way back, he caught the attention of George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain, who was in a sport-utility vehicle. Zimmerman called the police because the boy looked “real suspicious,” according to a 911 call released late Friday. The operator told Zimmerman that officers were being dispatched and not to pursue the boy.

Zimmerman apparently pursued him anyway, at some point getting out of his car and confronting the boy. Trayvon had a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea. Zimmerman had a 9 millimeter handgun.

The two allegedly engaged in a physical altercation. There was yelling, and then a gunshot.

When police arrived, Trayvon was face down in the grass with a fatal bullet wound to the chest. Zimmerman was standing with blood on his face and the back of his head and grass stains on his back, according to The Orlando Sentinel.

Trayvon’s lifeless body was taken away, tagged and held. Zimmerman was taken into custody, questioned and released. Zimmerman said he was the one yelling for help. He said that he acted in self-defense. The police say that they have found no evidence to dispute Zimmerman’s claim.

One other point: Trayvon is black. Zimmerman is not.

Trayvon was buried on March 3. Zimmerman is still free and has not been arrested or charged with a crime.

Yet the questions remain: Why did Zimmerman find Trayvon suspicious? Why did he pursue the boy when the 911 operator instructed him not to? Why did he get out of the car, and why did he take his gun when he did? How is it self-defense when you are the one in pursuit? Who initiated the altercation? Who cried for help? Did Trayvon’s body show evidence of a struggle? What moved Zimmerman to use lethal force?

This case has reignited a furor about vigilante justice, racial-profiling and equitable treatment under the law, and it has stirred the pot of racial strife.

As the father of two black teenage boys, this case hits close to home. This is the fear that seizes me whenever my boys are out in the world: that a man with a gun and an itchy finger will find them “suspicious.” That passions may run hot and blood run cold. That it might all end with a hole in their chest and hole in my heart. That the law might prove insufficient to salve my loss.

That is the burden of black boys in America and the people that love them: running the risk of being descended upon in the dark and caught in the cross-hairs of someone who crosses the line.

The racial sensitivity of this case is heavy. Trayvon’s parents have said their son was murdered. Crump, the family’s lawyer, told me, “You know, if Trayvon would have been the triggerman, it’s nothing Trayvon Martin could have said to keep police from arresting him Day 1, Hour 1.” Even the police chief recognizes this reality, even while disputing claims of racial bias in the investigation: “Our investigation is color blind and based on the facts and circumstances, not color. I know I can say that until I am blue in the face, but, as a white man in a uniform, I know it doesn’t mean anything to anybody.”

Zimmerman has not released a statement, but his father delivered a one-page letter to The Orlando Sentinel on Thursday. According to the newspaper, the statement said that Zimmerman is “Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family.” The paper quotes the letter as reading, “He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever” and continues, “The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth.” And disclosures made since the shooting complicate people’s perception of fairness in the case.

According to Crump, the father was told that one of the reasons Zimmerman wasn’t arrested was because he had a “squeaky clean” record. It wasn’t. According to the local news station WFTV, Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 for “battery on a law enforcement officer.”

Furthermore, ABC News reported on Tuesday that one of the responding officers “corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.” And The Miami Herald published an article on Thursday that said three witnesses had heard the “desperate wail of a child, a gunshot, and then silence.”

WFTV also reported this week that the officer in charge of the scene when Trayvon was shot was also in charge of another controversial case. In 2010, a lieutenant’s son was videotaped attacking a black homeless man. The officer’s son also was not initially arrested in that case. He was later arrested when the television station broke the news.

Although we must wait to get the results from all the investigations into Trayvon’s killing, it is clear that it is a tragedy. If no wrongdoing of any sort is ascribed to the incident, it will be an even greater tragedy.

One of the witnesses was a 13-year-old black boy who recorded a video for The Orlando Sentinel recounting what he saw. The boy is wearing a striped polo shirt, holding a microphone, speaking low and deliberately and has the heavy look of worry and sadness in his eyes. He describes hearing screaming, seeing someone on the ground and hearing gunshots. The video ends with the boy saying, “I just think that sometimes people get stereotyped, and I fit into the stereotype as the person who got shot.”

And that is the burden of black boys, and this case can either ease or exacerbate it.



I invite you to join me on Facebook and follow me on Twitter, or e-mail me at chblow@nytimes.com.

UtherTheTerrible Sat 17-Mar-12 19:18:17

I've been reading about this on MSNBC for a while and it's chilling, really awful.

"unarmed Trayvon, who had been carrying Skittles and soda, was dead on the ground from a single gunshot"

This makes me so sad and angry. He goes to get some sweets and spends the last moments of his life afraid and calling for help that didn't come in time. It's sick. He did nothing wrong.

KalSkirata Sat 17-Mar-12 19:25:04

have you got a link?

rhondajean Sat 17-Mar-12 19:28:24

How awful and ironic, to buy a home in a gated community, no doubt in the thought that it would keep your children's safe to do so, and this happens.

bochead Sat 17-Mar-12 19:34:07

The calls should be broadcast to the media together with a clear photograph of the murderer.

Yes he should be charged with murder - he ignored the advice of the 911 despatcher and acted as a vigilante. The law either applies to all or to none.

If it is not seen to apply to this man, then expect the consequences to reverbarate through the community in future. Blacks should no longer leave their homes unarmed or in groups less than two. One to shoot and one to act as a witness. They should also be allowed to walk free as the legal precendent that an individual can be judge, jury and executioner has now been set in this locale. That's not a future locale for any rationale human being to live in.

Why hasn't he been arrested

Because the killer is whita and has played it clever and the victim is black (so naturally up to no good).

chewchewmeaw Sat 17-Mar-12 19:34:21

globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-911-tape-released-video

This world walking while black is a damn felony..

I am enraged.

chocolatespiders Fri 12-Jul-13 23:57:13

Jury is now out...

TabithaStephens Sat 13-Jul-13 00:26:42

I'd be amazed if Zimmerman is found guilty. The prosecution made a right pigs ear of the case, a lot of their witnesses were of more help to the defence.

CoolStoryBro Sat 13-Jul-13 00:42:22

Errr, isn't Zimmerman Hispanic?! So, although he is technically white, in American terms, he's Hispanic which is, sadly, pretty low down the racial food chain. He really won't get off because he's a white man against a black man.

It is a very complicated case with huge implications either way. I would not want to be on the jury on this one.

chocolatespiders Sat 13-Jul-13 09:09:34

Very hard job for the jury who are back in today. Some of the pictures shown of Trayvon were absolutely heartbreaking.. Poor family sad

Helena1964 Sun 14-Jul-13 03:14:37

Zimmerman was just found not guilty. I'm appalled, but not surprised.

Outside of the courthouse, some people are standing numbly in shock,

and others are very emotional. I've heard that the police have been put

on alert, in case of possible riots. Race relations here in the

US are going to be even more tense than usual. sad

mailremnants Sun 14-Jul-13 04:03:06

Good. It means the American justice system is doing their jobs.

Your buying into the media hype and witch hunt. Go read the actual facts of the case and you will see that all the forensic evidence support George Zimmerman version of events. That Trayvon approached him, pushed him down and slammed his head into the pavement multiple times. That the gun shoot wound could only be obtained if he was still on top of Zimmerman at the time. That Trayvon had a criminal record for a string of burglary and assaults in the neighborhood and was known to police.

He wasn't found guilty because they couldn't prove he was guilty beyond reasonable doubt and it will be a sad day when they just shrug their shoulders and throw people in prison regardless.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 04:10:16

I agree. Twitter is embarassing at the moment. So many people that clearly haven't followed the case, it was obvious weeks ago that Zimmerman was going to be found not guilty, and yet there's all this outrage.

harborhaze Sun 14-Jul-13 04:28:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spamm Sun 14-Jul-13 04:38:56

The evidence all pointed to Zimmerman likely telling the truth, or at least there being sufficient doubt that they could not find him guilty. Nobody really wins - a young man is dead and Zimmerman will have to live the rest of his life under a cloud of doubt. It is just very sad.

McGeeDiNozzo Sun 14-Jul-13 04:49:18

I try not to indulge in angry Facebook circlejerks. Are there any decent non-partisan links about this one?

That Trayvon had a criminal record for a string of burglary and assaults in the neighborhood and was known to police.

I have never read anything to this effect in all the press relating to the killing. Can you provide a link?

HappilyChatterly Sun 14-Jul-13 08:01:21

Trayvon's parents testified it was him screaming on the 911 call, just before the gun shots. Zimmerman's parents testified that it was him. The person screaming was the one in fear of his life, if it was Trayvon, it's cold blooded murder, if it was Zimmerman he may have had a genuine self defence claim. (in my opinion, he was older, armed and in persuit- who was more likely to be in fear of his iLife?!?!) the problem is, both sets of parents testimony created a stale mate. This was enough to create reasonable doubt, so Zimmerman walked free.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 08:21:32

I gather that Zimmerman's wounds backed up his story. I don't think this needs to be about Trayvon Martin's past (if there is a criminal one). It is interesting that some want to make this about race though. Afaik the only person to have ever made a racially questionable comment was Trayvon, while on the phone to a friend. The death was obviously not about race.

Very very sad case with no good outcome for anyone.

Daisytunes Sun 14-Jul-13 08:32:54

dancer people believe it is about race because they don't believe Zimmerman would have followed a teenage white boy. Just as you are less likely to be stopped and searched by the police in this country if you are a teenage white boy rather than a teenage black boy.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that he went out looking to commit racially aggravated murder, but he wouldn't have been interested in Trayvon had he been white.

Flojobunny Sun 14-Jul-13 08:44:36

It's interesting that the first question the dispatcher asked Zimmerman on the phone is if the other one was white, Hispanic or black. How is that relevant to the dispatcher?

RhondaJean Sun 14-Jul-13 08:50:03

New York times is reporting Martin had no criminal record?

AICM Sun 14-Jul-13 08:59:05

Flojo
If the police want to find somebody then surely what they like like is relevant? You have instantly created a racist issue out of nothing. People like you are the problem in cases like this. A fair trial is impossible as long as people look for racism and find it whether it is there or not.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 09:00:44

Please get your facts right before your post bollocks. Zimmerman is not white-he is Hispanic.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 09:12:24

Its quite normal for an emergency operator to ask you to describe a prevalent feature of someone, i.e. skin colour,hair colour etc.

Zimmerman's parents,neighbours and relatives all said it was Zimmerman screaming for help (as did Martins parents) and forensics showed that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

I don't understand why they keep referring to him as white,when he is mixed race,favouring his Hispanic mother in appearance.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 09:24:47

Hispanic isn't a race. It's a cultural identity that people whose ancestors came from mainland Spain identify with.

People from Spain are still white, as in Caucasian are they not?

Back to the main point,I cannot believe the jury are still deliberating. Surely this must be one of the most cut and dried cases a jury could hope for? Zimmerman is guilty.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 09:27:17

Just seen he was acquitted. Absolutely appalling.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 09:36:10

In your opinion, you mean Alivolatpropiis?

Many people believe Zimmerman was acting in self defence. The evidence presented actually backs him. Quite understandable that he was found not guilty.

Daisytunes - many assumptions in your post. No one knows that Zimmerman was interested in Trayvon because he was black. It is the media/community that have tried to divide this case down racial lines. It fits the story they want to tell.

One look into Zimmerman's background shows there was no precedent for bigotry.

DoraExplorer1993 Sun 14-Jul-13 09:37:25

Surely this must be one of the most cut and dried cases a jury could hope for? Zimmerman is guilty.

Only if they base their opinion on the ridiculous media coverage and ignore all the facts of the case.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 09:41:42

It may not be a race per se but it is used to differentiate an ethnic group akin to travellers being white but an ethnic minority.

DoraExplorer1993 Sun 14-Jul-13 09:41:46

I don't understand why they keep referring to him as white

Because it helps back up the witchunt the media started to paint him as a nasty racist, and clearly being white makes you more racist that if you're actually half Peruvian. Same reason the media use a 13 year old picture of Martin and not a recent one showing his "gangsta" gold teeth, and why they used a picture of Zimmerman in a boiler suit looking depressed rather than any of the more "respectable" ones also available.

ipswichwitch Sun 14-Jul-13 09:47:33

Regardless of who was the aggressor during the confrontation, the fact remains that Zimmerman ignored police advice and pursued Martin and was armed. If he had followed their advice, this confrontation would not have happened and a young man would still be here.

This is why I despise Americas gun laws. This kind of thing happens daily. There was a story a while back about a man shooting his son who had come home late from a fancy dress party. Because he was fumbling with his keys at the door (being a bit drunk), the father thought he was someone trying to break in and shot him. It's bloody heartbreaking.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Sun 14-Jul-13 09:47:53

He would not have needed to act in self defence if he hadn't racially profiled and followed a kid who was armed only with a packet of skittles. I imagine Martin did confront hin, as you would if some random guy was following you around. He had no need to follow him, the police told him not to. He is a stupid dick and I hope he spends the rest of his life feeling guilty. Is it really self defence if you start it? He could have just as easily waited for the police. This is his fault, regardless if whether he is classed as guilty of murder.

Its just sad all round.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 09:49:37

A witch hunt against white people? Really? hmm

They wouldn't have shown a photo of Trayvon wearing a "grill" because white people make racist assumptions about black men who wear them.

Really hard to see that justice has been done here given a 17 year old boy is dead. Guns carrying being legal is this day and age is outrageous.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 09:51:17

Did he racially profile, Hopalongon? I don't think he did.

The 911 operator asked for his race, but the only person who referred to race without prompting and as a negative was Trayvon.

You are however absolutely correct in saying it is a sad case all round. No winners.

DoraExplorer1993 Sun 14-Jul-13 09:54:38

A witch hunt against white people? Really?

Well to anybody with a primary school level reading age would know I said nothing of the sort, but given your rather loose relationship with facts laid out in front of you I'm not really surprised.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit Sun 14-Jul-13 09:57:03

Do you honestly think he would have acted the same if the boy had been white?

GrendelsMum Sun 14-Jul-13 09:58:15

It's a side point, but yes, in the US, 'Hispanic' would be seen as a race in a way that it isn't in the UK, with the attendant possibility of racial prejudice.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 09:59:56

No,it's what you inferred.

They found him not guilty of commiting an act or acts that deliberately caused death. Florida laws definition of murder.

Fairly sure when you shoot someone death is the intention unless you're a trained marksman.

chocolatespiders Sun 14-Jul-13 10:01:01

If Trayvon was straddling him I don't understand how Zimmerman managed to get to his gun which was in the back of his trousers. And how did Trayvon's body end up so flat on the floor if he was shot whilst on top of him would he not have been slumped over. Why did the screams stop the instant the gun was shot. Why did Zimmerman not phone an ambulance when he told police he didnt know he was dead.

Absolutely heartbreaking and poor family having to see the photos of the body on the ground and in the Morgue.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 10:10:41

Absolutely Hop. Imo, this was a teenager in a hoodie he saw, not a black boy.

If you want to see a prejudice, that's the one that's there.

Sallyingforth Sun 14-Jul-13 10:17:36

Well it won't change anyone's prejudice opinion I know but having made myself read the accounts it seems there were two people ready and willing to have a dispute, and once it got heated the winner was always going to be the one who was best armed. If the boy had been carrying the gun the situation would have been entirely reversed.

vivizone Sun 14-Jul-13 10:20:02

Fucking typical. Argh

RIP Trayvon.

I hope he fucking rots. H is as GUILTY as fuck.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 10:23:29

Sallyingforth you have nothing to back your words up. Perhaps Trayon would not of been so trigger happy. If he had been allowed to go hone as he was trying to there would be no need for this thread.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 10:24:55

so.

you can arm yourself, stalk someone through the streets, start a confrontation with them after police have told you to quit it and leave them alone, and then shoot them when they try to defend themselves, and kill them.

what was it that made him feel entitled to confront and engineer a confluct with someone smaller, unarmed, alone?

people who are so sure that zimmerman did the right thing, or had no choice clearly have never, nor will ever have to worry about their children facing similar violence from vigilantes

the whole thing is sickening. no justice for a dead child.

lljkk Sun 14-Jul-13 10:26:37

Everything Ipswitchsaid. RIP Trayvon. sad

Sallyingforth Sun 14-Jul-13 10:28:20

Emuloc I have read each of the reports, and there has been bias on both sides. Like I said, I don't expect to change anyone's mind.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 10:28:32

How is shooting an unarmed teenager "acting in self defence?"confused

vivizone Sun 14-Jul-13 10:31:36

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 10:36:00

you can arm yourself, stalk someone through the streets, start a confrontation with them after police have told you to quit it and leave them alone, and then shoot them when they try to defend themselves, and kill them.

Hey, he had gold teeth remember! He clearly was asking for it... hmm

America's gun laws are so fucked up that the scenario above can be used as a legitimate, credible, LEGAL defence for self defence. sad

R.I.P Trayvon. The laws of your country let you down, and then those laws were defended in court.

So sorry to his family and friends flowers

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 10:36:26

He was told that the police were on their way. He took it upon himself to follow Trayvon. He had a gun Trayon did not. I know whose life I would be nore worried for.

Samu2 Sun 14-Jul-13 10:37:21

R.I.P Trayvon

The fact that Z got off is appalling sad

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 10:38:02

How can anyone think Zimmerman's motives weren't racial? confused I've been following the trial too and whether white/Hispanic/Green/Whatever or not, Zimmerman behaved in an extremely bizarre manner. So genuine question, why did he ignore the police and hunt Trayvon anyway? What was his motive? confused

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 10:42:46

Fight or Freeze: If a guy stalked me with a gun, I'd probably run. This kid chose to fight, got shot for it and has his grave marred with Zimmerman's 'self defence' BS.

Just feel disgusted with the world ATM. If Zimmerman wasn't a racist who got off, I genuinely would like an idea of what his motive was because right now it looks to me like America protected it's ridiculous gun laws by hiding behind a racist. If he'd been found guilty, the next question would have been why did Zimmerman have a gun at all? So let's hide behind him... That question doesn't get asked if we hide behind Zimmerman.

>Cynical<

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 10:44:07

Vivizone - your post is disgraceful. Is that an appropriate way to behave in memory of a young boy, I think not.

Sunrunner Sun 14-Jul-13 10:49:38

Vivizone - Zimmerman is guilty, not his familiy or descendants. What a vile think to say.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 10:50:58

oh yes, do keep your rage at this judicial atrocity polite and well mannered

parp.

Sunrunner Sun 14-Jul-13 10:51:03

ffs family and thing even.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 10:52:51

tidydancer, vivizone's views are probably what black people in America feel about the verdict knowing that the murderer is now going to be lauded as a hero for protecting whites against the black monster.

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 14-Jul-13 10:53:52

Guilty or not Vivi that is a vile post you made you can't blame so many people for the actions of one person. A jury is not asked to decide the fate of someone they only need to decide if there is reasonable doubt that someone didn't commit a crime.

From what I read Trayvon followed Zimmerman to start a fight after Zimmerman was heading back to his care. This obviously didn't give Zimmerman the right to take someone's life but the fact is if he wasn't armed and confronted this wouldn't have happened. A lot of circumstances combined together with an armed man caused the death of a young boy not Zimmerman's family the jury or police.

Also please remember to treat the American media like you would the DM here as CNN were the people who interviewed survivors of the sandy hook massacre while they were covered in their classmates blood. They want a reaction from you they want to make money they're succeeding. If there are riots in America the blame will be squarely at the feet of the American media.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 10:54:51

oh yes, do keep your rage at this judicial atrocity polite and well mannered

^^

This. We wouldn't want to offend those who think this 'gansta with gold teeth' didn't deserve justice. hmm

Julia Gillard, Casey Anthony, Trayvon Martin...

This world is getting worse and digressing further and further into its cesspool of hatred for children, women and minorities...

This is just th tip of the iceberg I fear... Irrational decisions decided by rash governments which affect huge chunks of society.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 10:56:43

I hope there aren't any riots, it will give the dishonest police the opportunity they want, to kill more black people

from what I read, Zimmerman went looking to kill the boy and has now got away with it. you carry a gun so that you can kill someone.

the boy's death wasn't 'caused' he was murdered.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 10:59:22

Vivizone isn't wrong about Florida, in my opinion based on my own experience. I've been there many times and have always been aware of a very different vibe between the white and black communities than I have ever seen in Britain in my lifetime. There is outright obvious racism,there is insidious subtle (to the white people there anyway) racism. To an outsider it's glaringly obvious though. And deeply unpleasant. Every mixed relationship couple I have seen there has turned out to be British.

Florida was a state heavily involved with the slave trade,as were other states in the South. You see the confederate flag flying outside people's homes in residential areas. Does anybody truly think Trayvon was going to get justice in a state with that mentality?

A teenage black boy wearing a hoodie with gold teeth? Yeah right.

RIP Trayvon.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 11:01:11

I think you mean a 'gansta' Ali (for some reason that is relevant to Dora, who has posted about his 'gangsta' status and dental hygiene on two threads I've seen.

After all, dental hygiene is worth killing over.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:01:58

crieghton - only if they are as bright as vivizone.

Please, when you say he was murdered do not present it as fact. It is your opinion, not fact.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:02:30

So was he a teenage boy who already had convictions for robbing in that neighbourhood?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:03:45

I have reported your thread vivizone. It is appalling.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:05:42

any person i see on the street could well have previous convictions for all sorts of crimes. i can't tell by looking.

not so for george zimmerman! luckily he could look at a teenage boy with his can of iced tea and his bag of candy and know that he needed to stalk him, start a conflict, refuse to back down when ordered by police and then shoot him, to death.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:05:43

Zimmerman went out with a gun looking for trouble, the boy got the trouble via a bullet. he was murdered.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:07:00

Zimmerman went out to buy groceries. Not looking for trouble.

Again, it was murder in your opinion. It is neither a fact, nor the verdict of the jury.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:07:14

maybe we should all do that- arm ourselves to the teeth, then roam the streets, attacking anyone who seems a bit off

what a jolly idea

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:08:09

But did he have convictions for previous robberies?-it has been mentioned on this thread with no link?

Sunrunner Sun 14-Jul-13 11:08:13

No doubt Zimmerman will be lauded as a hero by a number of Americans, what is pathetic is those Americans would also be the ones who would normally look down and slate people who are Hispanic.

It's all completly fucked up. There was never a chance that Trayvon Martin would get justice.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 11:09:21

Special

I too find the mention of his teeth bizarre. It's just a style,like many people have facial piercings.

Like you I struggle to make the connection that gold teeth = thug deserving to be shot and killed.

To the people who are saying "well he confronted Zimmerman when he was approached"

Yeah and what? He was a 17 year old, 17 year old boys can be cocky and in the main have no sense of their own mortality. My brother is 17,I can totally see him giving someone a mouthful if he was aggressively approached at random. Doesn't mean he's a bad kid,doesn't mean Trayvon was a bad kid.

Zimmerman acted in self defence? Yeah fucking right.

ChimeForChange Sun 14-Jul-13 11:09:22

Zimmerman was told by police not to follow him because he wasn't doing anything suspicious, there was no need to....

So why did he think it was ok to take the law in to his own hands and continue to follow him?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:10:58

I don't think he is a hero and I don't think anyone will laud he as such I think he was a man who made a very bad judgement call.

Even if he did have previousconvictions for robbing in that neighbourhood that does not justify his execution.
I can understand reasonable doubt for murder but why has he not also been charged with manslaughter?
RIP Trayvon sad

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:11:40

ashoething, vivizone's post is not appalling. it is what I think as a black person who knows that they and their family is expendable to white people, who allow travesties of justice to occur year after year, century after century.

the bbc have just reported that Zimmerman, althought free, will probably spend the rest of his life as a marked man. I say GOOD.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 11:11:47

Ashoething

It isn't really relevant if he had previous convictions for burglary in the neighbourhood. Zimmerman didn't know who the hell he was. He knew he was black wearing a hoodie. Fact remains he was merely walking home that night,armed with a bag of skittles.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:12:05

SauvignonBlanche - totally agree with you.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:13:26

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littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 11:13:28

The trouble with this, as far as I can see, is it is one person's account of what happened. Why did Trayvon hit Zimmerman in the first place? No-one truly knows other than those two, one is dead and I don't trust the other one TBH.

Zimmerman has got away with murder IMO.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:14:37

tidydancer is it normal to go out to buy groceries with your gun?

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:16:17

I don't know, do you live in that community and can reliably answer that question?

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 14-Jul-13 11:17:29

WTF is the handwringing over someone's angry post on an internet forum, while shooting an unarmed stranger dead is apparently no problem to some on here. Perspective please.

Also WTF about "gangsta" teeth?!? So someone's dentition is reason enough to be shot dead?

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:18:10

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littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 11:18:17

No creighton it is not.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:18:55

If you lived in that community and there had been previous assaults/break-ins then perhaps you would be frightened and would feel more secure carrying a weapon? As it is their right to do in the usa.

Noone has answered my question yet?-did the boy have previous convictions?

Also I stand by my comment re vivi-what she posted IS appalling.

Sunrunner Sun 14-Jul-13 11:19:32

I think the case is disgusting and Zimmerman should be in prison right now for murder. However I do not think children should pay for the sins of their parents.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:19:48

GoshAnne - please could you identify the post where someone has implied it's no big problem that Trayvon was killed? I think I must have missed it.

Regardless, the utterly disgusting posts by a couple of individuals on here should not go unchallenged. There are ways to express your upset and anger about things and a coupe of posts on here have shown exactly how not to do it.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:20:55

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littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 11:21:10

Why does it matter if he had previous convictions?

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 11:21:53

The right to bear arms has been wilfully misunderstood for a long time now. It was not a law created so every fool who fancied it could carry a gun.

It was created to ensure that America could get together a free standing force should they come under attack,from say...the British. In the 18th century.

That law has no place in the modern American nation.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:22:26

a kid nipping out down the the shops to buy a can of pop or a snack

and then doesn't come back

mothers and fathers who will feel (even more) fear when their teenage sons go out

whose family has been cursed, exactly?

SelectAUserName Sun 14-Jul-13 11:22:29

It's a sad day for American justice. What message does this verdict send out: "shoot first, the dead can't testify"?

RIP Trayvon, you and your family didn't deserve this.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:22:44

ashoething why don't you ask if Zimmerman has previous convictions? you are all assuming that he is a poor misguided chump who accidently killed someone. he is not. go and look into his past.

if assaults are a reason to carry a weapon, shouldn't all black americans carry one for fear of being lynched by whites?

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:23:02

It doesn't, littlemisswise. I really don't know why people are referring to that.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 11:23:06

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Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:23:08

If he had previous convictions and when was then seen in the neighbourhood-if you lived there would you not have been a bit suspicious/concerned?

I just don't see how its right that posters on here are trying to paint Zimmerman as the devil and trayvon as the angel-its really not as simple as that.

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 14-Jul-13 11:23:30

Creighton "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear an idiot than to open it and remove all reasonable doubt"

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:23:53

Creighton, please stop with the bigoted posts they are deeply unpleasant and hugely unnecessary.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 11:24:42

Tidy I don't think creighton is being racist. She raises a valid point about race relations in America from a black persons point of view. You telling her it's racist and she should basically shut up is not fair.

Vivizones post was over the top yes, but I can understand why she is so angry and why she said what she did.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:25:02

do you know who in your neighbourhood has previous convictions, ashoething? maybe you should arm yourself, stalk them and just shoot to kill, just in case, eh?

especially if they are a unarmed child.

ffs

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:25:37

I do not think Zimmerman is entirely innocent-as I said I think he made a very bad judgement call and I think he should have been convicted of manslaughter.

Re-the gun laws. The vast majority of people in the usa do not want them changed.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:25:43

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TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:25:56

I'm I

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:25:56

Why is Trayvon's criminal history of burglary relevant but Zimmerman's criminal history of domestic violence, resisting arrest and battery of a law enforcement officer not considered to be relevant? hmm

Only one person could have stopped Trayvon from being killed and that was the self-appointed, gun-totting, wannabe cop who was told to leave him alone.

Meanwhile a black woman who fired a warning shot to scare away an abusive husband just got sentenced to TWENTY YEARS in jail, this is all about race.

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 14-Jul-13 11:26:03
Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:26:46

Chibi-please have your ffs back thanks. Cheers.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:28:00

my posts are not racist, they are pointing out what the situation is right now in America. white people have and still collude with the idea that it is okay to oppress black people. show me where that is not true.

why should people, whose lives are deemed to be forfeit by whites, express their anger politely? should they do this for fear of retribution from white people, or is being suitably humble the only way to get sympathy from white people?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:31:41

Is there no racism against the Hispanic community in America then Creighton?

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:31:42

did three little letters offend you? please allow me to amend:

for fuck's sake

there! all better

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:32:21

If you really feel you are not being racist, creighton, that makes me sad.

I had no idea how prevalent and defendable casual racism was. This thread is teaching me a lot and I'm not happy to say that.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 11:32:27

is any white American innocent? don't they all collude with a situation where black people are oppressed in that country.

As a white American...are you serious, Creighton? I have never colluded to oppress anyone in my life.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 11:32:28

Creighton you say your posts are not racist and follow on to use the phrases White People and Black People universally.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:33:26

chibi-you are really not doing yourself any favours on this thread. Perhaps step away until you are able to reason or debate in an adult manner?. Hun.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:33:59

I am being told to be humble in front of white people so that I don't offend their sensibilities.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 11:34:10

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:25:56
Why is Trayvon's criminal history of burglary relevant but Zimmerman's criminal history of domestic violence, resisting arrest and battery of a law enforcement officer not considered to be relevant? hmm

Only one person could have stopped Trayvon from being killed and that was the self-appointed, gun-totting, wannabe cop who was told to leave him alone.

Meanwhile a black woman who fired a warning shot to scare away an abusive husband just got sentenced to TWENTY YEARS in jail, this is all about race.

^^

This, this, THIS!! He prick played bad cop and fucking got away with it.

I don't blame Vivi for wanting his head. Thank goodness I don't let DH post, you'd all need smelling salts if her post, which is clearly posted in extreme anger and a feeling of violation of trust is racist, evil, bigoted, offensive whatever... You don't want to hear how this is affecting the black community. Thank GOD my DC are only all but babes angry

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 11:34:18

I was just going to post that link Anormalone. How did she get 20 years for firing warning shots and he get off Scott free? I agree with you, it is about race.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:36:01

No creighton, you are not. You are being asked not to be racist and you are not understanding how you are being so. That in no way equals you being asked to be humble in front of white people. In the nicest possible way, you may want to take a look at your own attitude here.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 11:36:48

No you're not Creighton. hmm

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:37:01

I don't have a problem with vivi being angry at the verdict or indeed being angry at the person she believes to be guilty of a crime-Zimmerman. I take great issue with her wishing ill on people who were merely doing their job-the lawyers,court officials etc and also zimmermans family.

She has lowered herself and her argument by posting such vile comments.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:37:53

I would also ask, creighton, how you are no psychically aware that the people you are being offensive to are all white?

Just FYI, I can confirm that your psychic powers are lacking.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:38:00

cheeryfulyank..I am very serious. why aren't you lobbying to have 'stand your ground/shoot any black person you like' repealed?

there may well be racism against Hispanic people in America but this Hispanic is a racist and killed a black boy.

it's amazing how the only racists on this thread are black. the white people trying to find fault with martin are not.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:38:57

again, keep your words calm and sweet, never mind your rage! never mind the real violence directed at a child which resulted in his death, focus instead on how words might make someone feel uncomfortable!

is this what being an adult is, to you? debating in calm measured tones whether a child brought his murder on himself?

sickening.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:38:59

no so

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 11:39:24

I am offended when it's implied that I oppress people, merely because of the country I was born in and a race I was born a part of. I don't want you to be "humbled", though, I just want you to stop it.

Also George Zimmerman is not, by American standards, "white", as in I can guarantee he does not consider himself or identify as white.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 11:40:10

How do you know I haven't lobbied to change gun laws? confused

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:40:10

If the situation were reversed and Trayvon had shot Zimmerman in 'self-defense' we wouldn't be here, he'd be jailed faster than you cold say two-tier system.

Good article about this here

Zimmerman's brother recently went on CNN saying he was worried people are going to take the law into their own hands. Yeah, that'd suck, wouldn't it. hmm

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 11:41:06

Being angry/bitter about a system that clearly favours non blacks doesn't make you a racist.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:41:07

"there may well be racism against Hispanic people"-go and educate yourself about the numbers of Hispanic people incarcerated in America.

And you really do not see how your posts about how all white americans are oppressing black americans is racist? -again educate yourself re black American history.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:41:08

Chibi, I'm sorry you find requests to remove racism from posts so sickening. I'm also sorry you feel the need to sensationalise others opinions in order to make that point.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:41:38

yes indeed creighton. it is racist to not only notice but call attention to the fact that people live under a system which does not see their lives as having value, or being worthy of protection. racism is making white people uncomfortable, and hurting their feelings, apparently

TylerHopkins Sun 14-Jul-13 11:42:19

white people have and still collude with the idea that it is okay to oppress black people. show me where that is not true.

Can you make that some white people. You're not speaking on my behalf.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:42:46

chibi - know your place, do not anger white people, only being humble/noble will get sympathy from them for a black person. did you know that the lawrences only got sympathy when they turned out to be an ordinary family, not shouty dar...s that white people imagine all blacks to be?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:42:46

Yes adults are able to debate in a reasoned way even when it is an emotive subject matter. You chibi clearly cant so perhaps froth elsewhere?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:44:01

hmm

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 11:44:23

OK how about this. One convicted criminal killed,the other convicted criminal was on trial for his murder. Now they are not black and white/Hispanic.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:44:29

Creighton, you are removing buckets of credibility from yourself with every post. Please just stop with the incessant bigotry. It is not intelligent nor appropriate.

And I repeat. The people you believe you are offending are not all white.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 11:44:48

Exactly Normal, if his twee brudder don't wunna pway copz, maybe he should have thought about his evil game before he killed a child?

He got what he wanted. Away with it.

Unfortunately for him, he got sent back into the same community that let him free.

He was let free because of America's gun laws and racism. So now he don't wanna pway copz? Now it might be... Scary?

Fuck him. He wanted to be the Big Bad, well congratulations you prick, you are. No one likes a child murderer. Or a racist.

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 11:45:10

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Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:45:47

specialagent-no being angry about the system doesn't make you a racist. Saying that EVERY white American wants to oppress black americans IS racist.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:46:17

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ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:46:33

Baby you can't remove race from the discussion because it's an important part of it, the case is dripping with racism and America's justice system is known to be tipped against black minorities.

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:47:19

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TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 11:49:03

Are you hearing yourself creighton?

I'm actually now hoping you are just drunk or having a bad day or something, because it genuinely makes me feel sad that there are people who thinks it's acceptable to hold and share views such as yours.

Please just stop now, put your points across in another way. No one is trying to shut you up. Just stop with the racism. It is disturbing.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 11:49:06

a child was minding his own business

an armed adult followed him, was told to stop by police, decided to engineer a conflict anyway, shot the child and killed him

a child is never going to grow up now. if that sounds emotive, i wonder where your humanity is. like many people on this site, i am a parent, and the idea of my kids stepping out the door, never to return because they had th bad luck to cross paths with a racist vigilante terrifies me.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 11:49:34

Look we all know that if you are black in the US your life is seen to be worth less than say a white person. History tells us this is true so what is so different today. From what I see nothing. I do not feel surprised that idiot got off. If he had been found guilty which he is I would be surprised.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:50:04

Wow a cheeky tart? what an awesome insult-how long did it take you to come up with that one?hmm

How did the black people get to America Creighton?-again educate yourself re slavery.

I am not denying that there isn't inherent racism in the usa btw-you only have to look at the prison system to see there is. I am not convinced though that this case is racist-people are being manipulated by the media.

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 14-Jul-13 11:51:06

Power + Prejudice = Racism.

So those complaining about black people on here being racism are showing their ignorance and making someone's death all about their own hurt feelings.

Also Trayvon did not have a criminal record en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

I question the motives of those insisting otherwise.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 11:51:34

I am white and American and care deeply about the travails that ALL people suffer. I don't want anyone to be "noble" or "humble" and I am perfectly fine with anyone being as fucking angry as they feel, not that they need my permission. What I am not fine with is someone assuming I am a certain way because of my skin color.

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:52:36

Yeah, Gosh I didn't think he had one, Zimmerman on the other does have a history of violence and abuse, funny that.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 11:52:47

ashoething, I couldn't possibly know how black people got to America, do tell me...educate me... I clearly am in so much need of guidance from a person like you....

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:53:17

Assuming someone is a certain way due to skin colour?-is that not racism? Assuming I am oppressing black people because I happen to be white-is that not racism?

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 11:53:44

Well as long as people sling 'whites' and 'blacks' about,all inclusive they lose any credibility as they show their racism. Its like saying travellers or gipsies or immigrants.

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:54:24

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Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:54:52

You clearly don't know Creighton-your ill informed posts make it abundantly clear that you don't. You feel the need to resort to personal insults as you cannot make your point other wise. It makes mesad

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:55:25

*black people not blacks.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 11:57:47

I never commented that trayvon had previous convictions btw. I merely asked for clarification as it had been mentioned on the thread.

I shall say again I have no truck with zimmermans actions-I think he made a very poor decision and deserves some kind of punishments. But I don't believe on the evidence presented that he could have been found guilty of murder.

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 11:59:48

I don't think he should be found guilty of murder, it should be manslaughter, he didn't go out and intend to kill him, he created a situation were it became inevitable that he would though.

moreyear Sun 14-Jul-13 12:01:13

The stand your ground defence was NOT used in this case.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/13/zimmerman-stand-your-ground-trayvon-martin

The defence argued self defence and the prosecution failed to establish beyond reasonable that George Zimmerman was not in fear for his life when he shot Trayvon Martin.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 12:02:58

Vivi's post has been deleted btw. I think this thread is becoming too much of a bunfight and shall step away.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:03:09

Manslaughter would've been more appropriate. Goes to the incompetency of the prosecutor maybe that this didn't happen.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 12:03:29

Then is that not nurder either way then.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 12:03:32

so, what have we learned from this thread?

trayvon martin deserved to be killed because he had fancy ghetto dental work

he was wearing a hoodie

he was black and so must have had a criminal record

he shouldn't have responded to the white man who confronted him

people should moderate their tone when talking to white people on this thread so as not to upset them

the black people on this thread are racists but the white people are not

i am a nasty bigot because i talk back to white people (oh dear!)

i am in need of 'education' because i do not see things in an approved manner.

black people should not show their anger at the never ending insults thrown their way despite knowing that this case will happen again and again

white people in America are not racist even though they allow racist law and or practise to go on unabated

have i missed anything?

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:04:08

I reported it and judging by the message I got back from MN towers, I wasn't alone.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:05:31

Christ almighty, there really is no getting through to some people is there?

<face palm>

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 12:06:37

Not up to the prosecutor what the defendant is charged with-that decision is made higher up-district or state attorney probably. The fact that they chose to pursue the murder conviction makes me believe that they knew that this was going to become racially aggravating and wanted to be seen to be doing the correct thing.

Backfired with the verdict though as I believe he would have been convicted of manslaughter.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 12:08:15

I'm British and in a mixed marriage.

Entitle Creighton to her opinion, she is in a country that has all but waved their hand and said 'GTFO, he was black.' Of course she's pissed!! I am and you should see DH!! He isn't even angry, he's teary and confused (doesn't follow politics as much as I do) America has YET AGAIN hid their stupid fucking gun laws behind a racist, easier to deal with a jaw dropped public than a public demanding gun reform. Looks better don't it? Not for Trayvon's family of course, but who cares, right? sad

This is emotive to us with minority children. The thought that someone could stalk my child, call the police about him and then kill him when he went fight/flight then argue 'well, he was a gangsta/gold teeth/previous records...' Everything BUT what is out and out being said in those posts which is 'he clearly deserved it.' WTF does it matter if he had gold teeth or if he was a 'gangsta?' (Still want Dora to explain what she means... Nowhere have I seen explanations he was in a gang)

WTAF do gold teeth have to do with the fact someone shot him?

Unless, of course you connotate the two. hmm

I want to hide my mixed race DC behind closed doors right now. After all, if they panic at some freak following them they deserve to die.

Because that's what America just told my family.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 12:08:25

tidydancer how happy you are to be in a group! the post should not have been deleted. a show of real anger is sometimes what is needed rather than letting white people not see how HURT we are by the casual dismissal of black people and their lives.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 12:09:16

so, what have we learned from this thread?

trayvon martin deserved to be killed because he had fancy ghetto dental work

he was wearing a hoodie

he was black and so must have had a criminal record

he shouldn't have responded to the white man who confronted him

people should moderate their tone when talking to white people on this thread so as not to upset them

the black people on this thread are racists but the white people are not

i am a nasty bigot because i talk back to white people (oh dear!)

i am in need of 'education' because i do not see things in an approved manner.

black people should not show their anger at the never ending insults thrown their way despite knowing that this case will happen again and again

white people in America are not racist even though they allow racist law and or practise to go on unabated

have i missed anything?

Applauds Go Creighton! Like you said, some has to protect our kids. Lets home MN will and won't delete our posts!!

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 12:09:24

I just can't believe he wasn't found guilty! The gun laws need to change, poor boy

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 12:09:49

Creighton-you really are just choosing not to listen to what posters are saying are you? Noone is denying that there is inherent racism in the usa. What people are trying to point out to you is that saying that ALL white americans are racist is wrong and is in fact in itself racist!

You are being disingenuous if you refuse to see this.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:11:14

The post was vile and racist and needed to go.

You really need to try putting your point across without allowing it to drip with caustic racism. Nobody is going to afford you any credibility unless you post with intelligence.

And before you start saying I'm trying make you humble or some such shit that you came out with before, I will remind you once again that not everyone you are offending is white.

ecclesvet Sun 14-Jul-13 12:11:33

A good explanation from elsewhere about the case.

Here's my attempt at a simple explanation of why the jury acquitted Zimmerman.
Because he was the defendant, the jury needed to find his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That means they need to be 95%+ sure that Zimmerman: (A) shot Martin; and (B) did not shoot Martin in self-defense.
I.e., the state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no valid self defense.
1. Zimmerman claimed that while he was walking on the property, Martin jumped him, knocked him down, was beating him up, and tried to take his gun, at which point Zimmerman shot him.
2. The witness with the best view of the fight saw one person on top of another, beating him. He believed that the person on the bottom was wearing a red shirt. Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt (or jacket or sweatshirt).
3. Zimmerman had cuts on the back of his head that are consistent with it being hit against a sidewalk while he was on his back.
4. The coroner testified that the gunshot wound was consistent with Martin being shot while bending over someone.
That's pretty much the clearest and best evidence we have. There is a lot we don't know - like how the altercation between Martin and Zimmerman actually started, or whether Martin was actually "going for" Zimmerman's gun.
There is also a lot of discussion around the case that is not relevant to Zimmerman's guilt or innocence: Zimmerman was not required to obey the police dispatcher, and Zimmerman was allowed to approach Martin at the apartment. He wouldn't be able to start a fight with Martin and then claim self defense...but there's no evidence that the did.
But if we look at the evidence, the best evidence tends to support Zimmerman's version, and there isn't much good evidence to support Martin's version. And to get a conviction, 95% of the evidence needs to support Martin's version.

badtime Sun 14-Jul-13 12:12:31

I just wrote a long post about the sociology of racism in the US, but didn't post it because it ended up being pretty irrelevant.

However, the points I was really trying to make were:
- just because you are not racist, it doesn't mean other people aren't.
- just because someone is not aware of racism, it doesn't mean they are racist.

I think these points are being missed by some people on this thread. The American justice system is known to strongly skewed against the African-American community (even when economic factors are taken into consideration), so I am not surprised by this verdict, although I am disappointed.

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 12:14:46

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Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 12:14:54

The post wasn't racist. To be racist the person saying the offensive remark must be from a race in the position of power. Otherwise it is prejudice.

Creighton might not have articulated herself in way that is pleasing to others. Perhaps she should have said that on the whole America is a racist country thereby avoiding the wilful misreading of what she said as "all white Americans are racists". Though I'm sure some will still have done that no matter what she said.

chibi Sun 14-Jul-13 12:15:07

lol at the idea of inherent racism that can't be tied to anyone in particular

would people feel the same if they knew that it was their children that would be targeted by armed vigilantes who have had their sense of entitlement vindicated by his verdict?

badtime Sun 14-Jul-13 12:15:27

ecclesvet, 'beyond reasonable doubt' does not mean '95%+ sure', or anything like it. If it did, no-one would ever get convicted of anything.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 12:17:03

I don't think anyone on this thread is in any doubt about the racism in the American justice system?-again you only have to look at the disproportionate amount of black americans incarcerated to see it.

What people are arguing about is whether or not this murder was racially motivated and whether in fact it was murder. Clearly a jury of zimmermans peers thought it was not.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:18:47

Alisvolat - you think racism can't be racism unless the so-called racist is from a race in a position of power? Really?

I mean, really?

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 12:19:03

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ReginaPhilangie Sun 14-Jul-13 12:20:59

I can't believe this type of shit of STILL happening 20 fucking years after what happened to Rodney King! Who cares if the kid has a criminal record or not. The fact is this boy was KILLED for happening to be a black young man walking through a prestigious gated community. Zimmerman may have been acting in self defence (although I highly doubt it), you don't shoot to kill though, do you? I take it as a guard he had been trained to use his gun properly, so why the fuck didn't he then? Why not shoot Trayvon Martin in the arm or the leg, or the foot, to get him to stop whatever he was supposedly doing?

I guess people thought that now there is finally a black person in the white house this kind of sick shit would stop, I guess not. "Welcome to America, but if you happen to be black expect to get shot for walking down the street"! angry The capital of the free world aint so free if you're not white is it. If riots start all over America because of this, I'm not in the least bit surprised. Something needs to done about these fucking Ku Klux Klan dickheads who actually think they're superior to anyone who isn't white. Crazy, crazy mother fuckers!

RIP Trayvon Martin. flowers sad

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:21:00

Your posts are offensive to all decent people creighton. Black, white, whatever. Your attitude is terribly sad.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 12:21:40

Tidy

It's the definition of racism,so...yes actually.

I'm not saying being prejudiced is great either btw.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:21:41

TidyDancer I know others who think that.

Creighton do you have children that you are passing this attitude on to? That, for instance, my son and daughter (who are almost 6 years old and 7 weeks old, respectively) are people whom there is "no point in talking to" and that they will "turn on them", merely because they have white skin?

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 12:21:52

Trayvon Martin did not have a criminal record.

It says everything that some keep insisting that he did, so if he did have a record then his murder would be ok?

Disgusted but not surprised that this wife beating, cop beating racist was found not guilty.

Crazy that in this case it seemed like the victim was on trial too, that if it could be proved that Trayvon was 'Gangsta' then that would make his death less of a tragedy.

Gold teeth? FFS my sons teacher has gold teeth! is she secretly 'Gangsta' too?

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:23:06

Sorry Alivolatpropiis, you are wrong. I'm not sure what her referring to, but the definition of racism is not it.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 12:23:14

chibi, maybe you are wasting your time talking to these people. their children will never be shot down in the street without a full investigation and trial. the police in florida didn't even investigate the crime at first as Zimmerman said it was self defence, they took his white word for it.

anormalone, if white americans are not racist, why do these racist acts still keep occurring, why don't white Americans lobby the supreme court to pull the states into line? why is this behaviour still tolerated?

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 12:23:27

In this case the person with the weapon had all the power

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:23:28

No, Ali, the definition of racism is "a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."

ANormalOne Sun 14-Jul-13 12:23:45

when the whites turn on you as they will

Oh look, more racism, but it's acceptable when a black person is racist, isn't it? I'm done. You're making yourself look like an idiot, you don't need anyone's help to do that.

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:23:49

Actually, maybe you're talking about oppression? That's a different thing to racism though obviously.

badtime Sun 14-Jul-13 12:23:57

creighton, you are insulting even people who largely agree with you. If someone from any background was posting comments like yours, or if a white British person was making blanket statements about people of any 'race', they would be jumped on. Can't you see that?

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:24:45

Creighton I don't think you quite understand how American laws, etc, work. You can't lobby the Supreme Court to pull states into line. confused

Tanith Sun 14-Jul-13 12:26:14

Dora, I thought the "picture of the 13 year old" claim had now been discredited and has been proved to be a photo of Trayvon Martin taken 7 months before he was shot.

Likewise, a couple of the photos claiming to be an older (and bigger, more "scary") Trayvon Martin were not of him at all.

ecclesvet Sun 14-Jul-13 12:26:39

badtime "beyond reasonable doubt" defintely means at least 95% certain. Most lawyers would actually say it's more like 99%. But it isn't ever quantified like that, it basically just means "are you sure?".

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 12:27:03

you think racism can't be racism unless the so-called racist is from a race in a position of power? Really?

Yes really.

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 12:27:36

Im just so glad we have different gun laws here

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:27:46

Yes, what Tanith said. Link

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 12:28:04

cheerfulyank, who is being disingenuous now? all racists start out as 'cute' babies of 6 weeks old and then reach 7 and then reach their full racist glory.

tidydancer, i am speaking from experience, mine and that of other black friends.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:28:19

That isn't the definition of racism, though, Amber.

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 12:29:48

Racism can be racism even if you are in the minority, if a white person is killed by a non white for race reasons then I don't see how that could possibly not be considered racist, as I said in this case the person with the power is the one holding the gun

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 12:30:26

Cheerful

Dictionary definition that may be but in reality - those in a position of power are the most racist,historically speaking.

Who was in the position of power when black Africans were exploited and forcibly removed from their homes to be slaves? Who was in the position of power when there was legal segregation between white and black people? Who is in the position of power when it comes to socio economic and educational standing today?

Power = a form of superiority. An enforced one.

I find it hard to see how a black person can be racist when the answer to all of the above is white people.

There is a reason the term white privilege exists. There is a reason black people feel oppressed today.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:31:20

Creighton I was raised to get to know people before deciding anything about them. I will do the same with my children, so I doubt that they will ever "reach full racist glory".

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:31:57

CheerfulYank - I think oppression is meant, not racism. Or at least something like that.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 12:32:40

I have reported you Creighton for being deliberately inflammatory and trying to start a bunfight. I shall not engage with your comments any further on this thread.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 12:33:20

Likewise, a couple of the photos claiming to be an older (and bigger, more "scary") Trayvon Martin were not of him at all

Yes, one of the 'bigger scarier' 'Trayvons' was in fact this man who is a 33 year old rapper known as 'The Game'

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:34:18

I'm certainly not debating that there is the element of power in any of your examples, Ali. But I don't understand how you find it hard to see how a black person can be racist. Of course they can! If someone believes that a person will behave in a certain way because of the color of their skin, that someone is racist.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 12:35:10

It wasn't only white people who forcibly removed and enslaved black Africans alisvolat though.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:35:26

Yes Amber as well as an entirely different person named Trayvon. I posted the Snopes link above. Fucking ridiculous.

My heart is breaking for his family.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 12:35:34

That isn't the definition of racism, though, Amber

According to who?

...and what Alisvolatpropiis said.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 12:36:55

Cheerfulyank, I think the point is, what impact can a black persons 'racism' have?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 12:36:56

The American federal government clearly has inherent racism, if not out-and-out. I don't think that can be disputed?

That is then poured onto the media, that control most of the public.

Therefore, I think it's a decent assumption to assume that most Americans may be inherently racist if I don't know them. That's how I protect my family. (Not that I'd EVER grace that truly fucked up country with my beautiful shoe prints!)

I don't think it's wrong of Creighton to point that out, even though it's a huge taboo and she didn't necessarily word it properly. It's true. America is a inherently racist country from their media alone. Their celeb mags get as puffed up with outrage about poor boys like Trayvon Martin, and in the next issue will have Nicki Minaj and how she's 'so gangsta' in the next issue. Really doubt as annoying as she is that she's in a gang but whatever
This case hits way to close to home for a lot of us. Who likes to think if their kid defends themselves, they can then be murdered and that falls under the other person's self defence because even they stalked and terrified them, hey, they didn't panic and attack first right? Clearly he deserved a shot in the head... hmm

I feel unsafe for my DC when I hear people saying this was clearly logical of Zimmerman.

No. Best case scenario in my mind is the wannabe cop was so desperate to play cop he saw a 'dodgy' looking kid and chased him.

In my best case scenario Trayvon was 'dodgy' looking because he was black. sad

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:37:52

According to the dictionary.

Are you telling me you actually believe that Creighton saying there is no point in talking to white people and that they will "turn on you" is not racist?

BabyMakesMyEyesGoSleepy Sun 14-Jul-13 12:41:46

So if I said there's not point in talking to black people (not some or a few) because they will turn on you,then that's OK.

hmm

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 12:41:58

Ashoething

No. But it doesn't make it any less true that they did on a massive scale. It doesn't make it any better that others did does it?

TidyDancer Sun 14-Jul-13 12:43:01

I said this up thread, but I do believe there was a prejudice in this case, but it wasn't racist. I believe George Zimmerman saw a teenager in a hoodie and assumed he was trouble. I don't think this is anything to do with the colour of his skin.

This thread has shown a hell of a lot about the wider attitude though.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 12:43:30

No it certainly doesn't. I was merely pointing out a fact.

JaffaMyCake Sun 14-Jul-13 12:44:23

Firstly, can I just say that the gross generalisations on here make me sick. You cannot classify an entire race as racist based on the opinions and actions of a minority.

The fact that Zimmerman wasn't immediately arrested and investigated is an appalling failing on the part of the police, nobody should just take anybody's word about something being "self defence".

I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of murder, refer eccles post above for reasons why and also the link posted a few pages back.

What I think happened is that Zimmerman saw someone he didn't recognise in the neighbourhood and after a spate of recent burglaries in the area was anxious and tried to follow the man to see what he was up to. From what I can gather it was Martin who confronted Zimmerman, the evidence points towards the fact that he was beating Zimmerman when he was shot. Thinking about it from zimmermans point of view, had a large, hooded youth been standing over me hitting my head off the pavement (as suggested by injuries) would I have been in fear for my life? The answer is probably yes, I'd have said the same if the boy was white. And for those saying he could have shot him in the leg, that is frankly a bloody ridiculous thing to say, if you are in fear for your life you panic and do as much as possible to get the attacker off you, it may have been logistically impossible for him to shoot Martin in the leg.

The media have done a pretty good job of whipping up an absolute storm, has anyone noticed how the defendent is referred to as Zimmerman whilst the victim is referred to as Trayvon. Also a lot of the photos that have been used are of Martin as a thirteen year old. The media have done a pretty good job of painting Martin as some sort of racist, martyr victim and making out like this is some sort of stand for white power.

Zimmerman was Hispanic, as far as I'm aware, Hispanics aren't greatly thought of either in Florida.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:46:15

I think it's entirely possible that George Zimmerman IS racist.

But that doesn't mean all Americans, or all white people (of which Zimmerman is not one) are.

JaffaMyCake Sun 14-Jul-13 12:47:11

In fact that point I made really fucks me off angry. Why does nobody refer to Zimmerman as George? It's making Trayvon Martin out to be more personable and I don't think it is doing anything to help the situation.

Using first names creates more empathy, we don't need bias in this instance.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:48:30

Jaffa he wasn't thirteen in those pictures. Snopes link again.

chocolatespiders Sun 14-Jul-13 12:48:35

Casey Anthony killed her kid = Not Guilty

George Zimmerman kills a teenager= Not Guilty

Michael Vick killed a dog= GUILTY #WakeTheFuckUp!

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 12:52:37

Are you telling me you actually believe that Creighton saying there is no point in talking to white people and that they will "turn on you" is not racist?

Well Creighton and I are PMing right now and she's more than aware I'm white and she's been perfectly lovely so... No, I don't believe she thinks I'm racist.

ecclesvet Sun 14-Jul-13 12:53:39

The prosecution couldn't prove Casey Anthony killed her kid = Not Guilty

The prosecution couldn't prove George Zimmerman kills a teenager= Not Guilty

The prosecution could prove Michael Vick killed a dog= GUILTY

#That'sHowCourtsWork!

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 12:54:28

I'm not saying she believes you're racist.

I'm asking if "there is no point in talking to white people" is a racist statement.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 12:54:36

Jaffamycake he is refered to by his surname because he was the one on trial, thats pretty usual isn't it? ie the crown vs thompson [not sure how they say it in the US, the state?]

Trayvon is dead, what does it matter how personable he is? again back to the point about Trayvon being on trial!

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 12:58:17

Are you telling me you actually believe that Creighton saying there is no point in talking to white people and that they will "turn on you" is not racist?

I wasn't talking about creighton, I was talking about racism/power.

I don't think creightons statement there was her wisest, but I can understand her frustration completely given some aspects of this thread.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 12:58:38

*I'm not saying she believes you're racist.

I'm asking if "there is no point in talking to white people" is a racist statement.*

Fair enough. I guess the closest to explaining how I feel is confusion that if that was meant racially why would she continue PMing me and being lovely IYSWIM?

But this thread isn't about Creighton.

May I ask you if you think the American Government is inherently racist, as you are American? I do. I'm curious as to what Americans think, even if they love their country. (Not meaning to single you out, just see you are American! [smile)

JaffaMyCake Sun 14-Jul-13 13:02:13

Amber yes it is usual, but then I also think travyon Martin shou,d be referred to by his surname. It matters because its adding to the media hype and encouraging people to think of "poor Trayvon" instead of encouraging a balanced view.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 13:02:25

Some of the posts about Trayvons teeth/Hoodie/background remind me awfully of the arguments of

'Well yeah, I raped her but...'

She was poor/a slut/just check her criminal record...

I see way too many uncomfortable 'coincidences' between how minorities and how women are treated in this world. Sometimes when dealing with one means dealing with the other, it becomes ignored and festers.

I'm horrified people think Zimmerman deserved off. Just like I am physically disgusted with the subhuman people who think 'Well Casey Anthony's lawyer was too good, so just get over it!

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 13:03:26

Jaffa, why did Zimmerman follow him, when he had been told not to? Why did he get out of the car? Do we know who threw the first punch? So do we know if Trayvon was acting in self defence in the first place? Why did he say these fucking arseholes always get away with it? Why was he carrying a gun?

If you saw a large, suspicious looking youth you wouldn't exactly confront them would you?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 13:04:49

Jaffa if we genuinely want a balanced view why do we all keep being reminded 'But Martin had a record, so Zimmerman's racist fear was justified,'

... But NO mention of the many previous incidents that show he has a lust for control and violence in his criminal record?

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 13:08:25

Hmmm. Well. I'll have to make this short as I am typing one handed while expressing milk for DD, but that's an interesting question TattooedQueen.

I think the government itself, or the justice system or what have you, are not necessarily inherently racist, but people sometimes are. George Zimmerman probably is.

As far as the jury, it's like Ecclevest said...it needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That's why Zimmerman got off. And Casey Anthony, and OJ Simpson.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 13:09:13

Arrgh, I didn't mean "If you saw a large, suspicious looking youth you wouldn't exactly confront them, would you?"

What I mean is, you wouldn't get out of the car because you'd be afraid they'd be carrying a weapon or be unpredictable in their behaviour, especially as Zimmerman said he thought Trayvon was on drugs. I makes no sense to me as to why he got out of the car, and the "looking for street names" excuse is beyond feeble!

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 13:09:29

Are you missing the fact that GEORGE Zimmerman is in a minority special-given that he is in fact Hispanic? or at least mixed race? Or is that just not convenient for your argument?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 13:11:08

Not many people on this thread have said they believe Zimmerman should have got away scott free special? They have said they didn't believe he should be convicted of murder based on the evidence presented.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 13:12:49

It matters because its adding to the media hype and encouraging people to think of "poor Trayvon" instead of encouraging a balanced view

Yeah fucking right 'poor Trayvon' hes dead for nothing!

I dont know why we keep being reminded Traycon Martin had a criminal record when he didn't

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 13:14:37

Ashoething but zimmerman could have been convicted of manslaughter dont forget, so if they were unsure on the murder charge they could have gone for manslaughter.

he got away scott free.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 13:19:33

*Hmmm. Well. I'll have to make this short as I am typing one handed while expressing milk for DD, but that's an interesting question TattooedQueen.

I think the government itself, or the justice system or what have you, are not necessarily inherently racist, but people sometimes are. George Zimmerman probably is.

As far as the jury, it's like Ecclevest said...it needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That's why Zimmerman got off. And Casey Anthony, and OJ Simpson.*

See, to me this raises of the question of what exactly is reasonable doubt?

Because no one seems to actually believe any of these people were truly innocent, and that even Zimmerman should have at least gotten manslaughter.

It shouldn't be just about who has the best lawyer. To me, that's the sign of an unjust society and worth meriting the question is a government inherently misogynist/racist etc if they allow people to walk free on who was the most persuasive rather than evidence. Because as @Ashoething* says, no one here seems to think he was innocent except for one poster who raised eyebrows with her racist hits about Trayvon's teeth etc.

Obviously you don't know anyone in the government (as far as I know, anyway!) May I ask what was the average American -Like yourself- Reaction to the trial? Like, did it lean towards one side, or was it a marginal split in who the average person thought was guilty? I don't assume you to know the average American's reaction to the verdict so soon, obviously! wink

Does anything of what I've clumsily written make sense?

BTW last thread I saw, you were pregnant with DD. Congratulations!! smile

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 14-Jul-13 13:23:03

Afternoon everyone,

We understand that this is a very emotive topic, but we would ask that you keep your posts within our talk guidelines.

We're going to go through this thread and remove personal attacks.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 13:29:58

Thank you smile

Everyone I know well believed that Zimmerman was guilty of at least manslaughter. A few people on FB didn't.

I am shocked that he was found innocent of all charges and I expect most Americans will be.

I've read that the jury asked for a clarification

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 13:31:18

Argh, stupid phone.

A clarification on the manslaughter charge and the judge didn't give one?

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 13:31:26

The boy is dead.
He committed no crime, let alone a capital one.
Anyone who doesn't think he was followed and seen as a suspect can't have black sons or partners.

It is a cascade of events. Events that were put in motion by one man's fear of the Black Male.

Surely the most feared of all humans?

Why do you think minorities like to keep their business to themselves?
Because they have something to hide or because outcomes are so much poorer when outside agencies get involved?
Police, mental health, social services....

Keep your head down and don't chat your business.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 13:32:36

I particularly like the skittles defence. Carry skittles and it becomes impossible to hurt anyone or burgle a house. oh yes

Justfornowitwilldo Sun 14-Jul-13 13:35:12

It's totally incomprehensible to me. A 17 year old with sweets and a drink walking to his father's girlfriend's house. An adult male with a gun. A teenager shot dead. And they find the man not guilty???

America shares a language with us but it's a different world.

Justfornowitwilldo Sun 14-Jul-13 13:37:19

How is it acceptable to shoot dead an unarmed teenager on a street??? What possible justification could there be?

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 13:38:50

self defence ?

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 13:40:59

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 13:42:19

I was asked a sensible question, I gave a sensible answer

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 13:43:08

OldMac

Bollocks it was self defence. If Zimmerman hasn't followed Trayvon for no reason after being told not to do so by the police then none of this would have happened.

It is a travesty he has been found not guilty of all charges.

Had the shoe been on the other foot and it had been Trayvon who had shot and killed Zimmerman I don't doubt for a second that he would have been found guilty of all charges.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 13:44:05

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 13:31:26

*The boy is dead.
He committed no crime, let alone a capital one.
Anyone who doesn't think he was followed and seen as a suspect can't have black sons or partners.
It is a cascade of events. Events that were put in motion by one man's fear of the Black Male.
Surely the most feared of all humans?
Why do you think minorities like to keep their business to themselves?
Because they have something to hide or because outcomes are so much poorer when outside agencies get involved?
Police, mental health, social services....
Keep your head down and don't chat your business.*

^^^^

I am so afraid for my DC. sad I didn't know the fear before we had them. Now it's so prevalent in my mind, especially when the (global) public community tries to justify hate crimes.

I just want to lock my babies up with barred windows, make DH somehow work from home and keep us safe forever. sad

Justfornowitwilldo Sun 14-Jul-13 13:45:07

Self defence? When the person was unarmed?

mayorquimby Sun 14-Jul-13 13:45:13

"Why not shoot Trayvon Martin in the arm or the leg, or the foot, to get him to stop whatever he was supposedly doing? "
Anyone trained to shoot (don't know if Zimmerman did have training) would never attempt to shoot extremities, you shoot for centre mass.

The arguments about racism definitions are pointless, it's a subjective notion which different people bring their own bias to wrt whether there needs to be a power position etc.

The 95% thing for beyond reasonable doubt is a new one on me. Every lawyer and barrister on this side of the pond would never have heard of that, happy to be corrected for USA though.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 13:47:01

if he hadnt followed him, that may be true. but he did.

a big teenage male is perfectly capable of killing or seriously injuring with his bare hands.
The guy with the gun had blood and cuts on the back of his head and claims his head was beeing bashed against the floor.

mayorquimby Sun 14-Jul-13 13:48:21

"Self defence? When the person was unarmed?"

Well yes if the person felt their life was in danger. Don't think anyone on this thread will change their minds as to what happened in this specific case, but in a hypothetical discussion it is arguable that lethal force against an unarmed person could meet the criteria for self defence.

Justfornowitwilldo Sun 14-Jul-13 13:48:47

Yes. The armed man who shot the unarmed teenager after following him is a totally reliable source.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 13:48:57

mrsdevere-are you another poster conveniently ignoring the fact that george zimmerman is a minority?

Justfornowitwilldo Sun 14-Jul-13 13:51:01

I hope that someone like the ACLU will fund a civil case against him.

Justfornowitwilldo Sun 14-Jul-13 13:53:28

They may both be 'minorities' but one decided that the other could have no legitimate reason to be walking down that street based on the colour of his skin.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 13:56:21

Ashoething

He isn't according to the American press.

And correct me if I'm wrong but Hispanic males are not generally harassed by those in authority and portrayed in a stereotypical manner designed to make stupid people fear them. Black men are.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 13:58:03

So now Trayvon was out to kill Zimmerman with his 'bare hands,' but the guy who stalked him against begging policepeople who had a lethal weapon and a criminal history that reflected a need/desire for control and violence was... What? No one can say he was 'out to get' Martin even though he provoked a situation against police suggestion because that's offensive?

To me it makes zilch, zero sense why Zimmerman stalked a teen with a dangerous weapon if not to play the Big Bad Cop. After all, he was repeatedly denied employment to train to become a cop. Criminal record, repeat denial from the cops to join, vigilante behaviour against authority demands that resulted in a dead teen.... But he was let off because Martin attacked him first. I actually believe he did. He was being stalked! His fight/flight kicked in. He fought and got a fatal gunshot.

The fact he didn't even get manslaughter is what disturbs me the most. If he were confined to a psychiatric institute I'd understand given his history. If he were given any punishment AT ALL people wouldn't deem this racist of the American authorities.

But he stalked a child then murdered him because he thought he was suspicious -Against police who said THEY WERE ON THEIR WAY!!!-

Well, he wanted to be the Big Bad Hero. Congrats mate, you are. Enjoy your life long status... You earned it.

mayorquimby Sun 14-Jul-13 13:58:51

Sorry but Hispanics are routinely treated as gang bangers or boarder jumpers in terms of the discrimination.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 13:59:24

fwiw justinitfornow, I agree with you. I think this eejit was looking for someone to bully and picked on the wrong bloke.
He went from being the hard man to getting battered in a fraction of a second, and probably thought he was a gonner.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 14:00:18

SpeialAgent If you knew the fear before would that haye stopped you. Do not let your kids be hidden away but equip then to deal with people and please ensure that they know their history regarding slayery. Also ensure they know that people of colour haye done wonderfull things from inyentions to going into space. You probley (sp) do this anyway but it is surprising how nany people do not.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 14:00:26

oldmaceieio, what do you mean the 'skittles defence'? I didn't realise that trayvon martin was charged with anything, oh wait, he was charged with being black and walking along a white man's street and so had to die. please keep mocking the dead boy.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 14:05:06

i am not mocking the boy.never. he did not use the skittles defence, you did

manicinsomniac Sun 14-Jul-13 14:06:26

My children are half Hispanic. There's no way I would ever take them to live in a border US state, the prejudice and outright racism against Hispanics there is very prevalent.

I agree that there is no way the jury could have found Zimmerman guilty of murder (too much evidence that he was being attacked) but I find it amazing that he hasn't been convicted of manslaughter. He killed an essentially innocent boy (maybe not completely innocent if he was attacking him but he hadn't commited any particular crime and wouldn't have bothered Zimmerman if he hadn't been following him.)

The racism is America towards both Black and Hispanic people is frightening to me and I don't understand it. But it isn't all (and proabaly not even the majority) of Americans.

googlyeyes Sun 14-Jul-13 14:06:35

When we were in Florida 2 years ago a black teenager shot 2 unarmed white British holidaymakers at point blank range and in cold blood (they were found with their trousers down in a final humiliation). Fort no reason whatsoever.

Could it be extrapolated that white people are not safe in America anymore? Or that black people see white people's lives as cheap? And that black people are racist towards white people?

Or was it simply the evil act of an individual

googlyeyes Sun 14-Jul-13 14:09:53

Ditto the OJ Simpson case, come to think of it.

Was that another case where white lives were seen to be cheap? And there were no threats of rioting when he laughably was aquitted.

I'm really interested as to how things become so skewed

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 14:11:54

it's money googleyes. the justice systems is a way of finding out which side has the most money to spend

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 14:14:01

There are only two people who really know what happend that night. One is now dead. If Trayon was hitting the other guy how do we know it was not in self defence. I think this guy has got away with nurder.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 14:14:47

Hispanic males also make up a disproportionate amount of the prison population so to suggest they are not a minority or not subject to racism is errant nonsence. They went for a murder conviction because their hand was forced by people jumping on the band wagon about it being a racially motivated.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 14:15:33

mayor

What is a gang banger? I've heard the term before on American tv shows but don't know what it actually is,something to do with gangs obviously.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 14:16:16

SpeialAgent If you knew the fear before would that haye stopped you. Do not let your kids be hidden away but equip then to deal with people and please ensure that they know their history regarding slayery. Also ensure they know that people of colour haye done wonderfull things from inyentions to going into space. You probley (sp) do this anyway but it is surprising how nany people do not.

Thank you for your lovely advice, it means a lot as TBH I'm reaching the ages where innocent questions I don't know how to answer are being asked. I've read up/continue to read and learn about the amazing people of colour and how they've helped the world to be a better place. But as my DTs are two, I want to be able to find black toys but never can? My eldest DS has severe SN so that makes it even more difficult. sad Even finding black skinned dolls etc is hard. sad

Creighton told me there is a multicultural families board on here, so I'm going to check that out. Never realised as I just check Active! blush

Anyway, sorry for the tangent... I just want my kids to grow up confident, happy and proud of their heritage without being fearful of suspicion because of the colour of their skin!!!

googlyeyes Sun 14-Jul-13 14:18:13

There are only two people who really know what happend that night. One is now dead. If Trayon was hitting the other guy how do we know it was not in self defence

How can you say this and then go on to say it's your opinion that Zimmerman got away with murder?

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 14:20:22

Ashoe

I didn't say Hispanics weren't subject to discrimination.

1 in 27 Hispanics are incarcerated
1 in 11 Aftrican Americans is incarcerated.

As opposed to 1 in 45 Caucasians.

I'm still not sure how Zimmerman being Hispanic means it was ok for him to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin.

Murder,ok maybe not. Manslaughter? Certainly. Gross injustice that he was found not guilty of all charges.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 14:21:06

because that's what the herd is saying. quick - follow that bandwagon

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 14:23:08

Sorry just read this part:

SpeialAgent If you knew the fear before would that haye stopped you.

If you mean marry and have my amazing DC with my amazing DH? No, if I'd 'known' I still would have, and in a heartbeat.

What I meant was totally understanding the very real terror of being a minority only comes with being a minority. I may not be, my sweet, perfect DC are.
The terror is becoming more real to me every single day, I hope by the time they are teenagers things are not only drastically different but they'll know their heritage because they should, not just because they need too IYSWIM?

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 14:26:53

Awww SpecialAgent thank you for your reply.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 14:28:54

I still think letting Zimmerman off the hook provides a cosy distraction to the subject of WTAF was a man with so many criminal charges on him allowed to carry a gun around?!

So we're focusing on Zimmerman being a racist or a vigilante or both (IMHO, he is) and NOT questioning why it was legal of him to carry such a weapon.

You may not be able to stop people viewing themselves as the guardian angel of their area, or stop racists from being racists. BUT you can stop those sorts having a fucking gun to wave around in all their superiority.

All this case did was prove gun = I am safe no matter what, or for what reason. The System understands. After all I have a groan Constitutional right huffs, puffs with indignation that you dare question my beloved weapon to wave a gun around at all times...

mayorquimby Sun 14-Jul-13 14:30:54

"What is a gang banger? I've heard the term before on American tv shows but don't know what it actually is,something to do with gangs obviously."

Essentially that. People who are overtly involved in gangs and are actively engaged in gang related activity (tagging, drug dealing, violence etc.)

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 14:30:55

Thank you emuloc blush I didn't say anything special, but it's always comforting to know someone thinks I'm doing right for my family!

DH is now in his own angry internet world about this case! I'm afraid to check what he;s said on his forums...

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 14:33:34

Googlyeyes it is what it is an opinion. Is Trayvon not dead.

CheerfulYank Sun 14-Jul-13 14:34:51

TattooedQueen it is sad. Someone I know on FB (she was a good childhood friend) is Mexican and married to a black man. They have a lovely 10 year old DS and she was just saying she warns him all the time about how young black men are treated and how he has to be aware of everything. That she should need to talk to her child about this is unbelievably sad.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 14:35:35

Thanks mayor I figured it was a self explanatory term but thought there might be more than meets the eye ifyswim.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 14:45:08

Meanwhile, in Cobb County, Ga., four gangbangers beat a randomly chosen white man until he staggers out into traffic where he is run over and killed. Luckily, it’s not a hate crime…

www.ajc.com/news/news/local/police-mableton-fatal-assault-not-racially-motivat/nYpGG/

WestieMamma Sun 14-Jul-13 14:45:48

Any law which allows people with a history of violent behaviour to carry a gun is insane and needs to go.

My heart goes out to Trayvon's parents. I look at my baby son sleeping peacefully next to me and can't begin to imagine their pain sad

FreudiansSlipper Sun 14-Jul-13 14:46:23

white supremacy is still very much alive in our society too and it shows on this thread

It is so ingrained in our society we can not even see it at times and it needs to be addressed without cries of but I am not racist and for people to listen

Before anyone points out Zimmerman was not white I know but if he had shot a white boy (which under the same circumstances I am quite sure he would not have done) the verdict would be different and we would not even be debating this

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 14:48:37

SpecialAgent Your DH had better be carefull what he says he would not want to be labeled an angry black man now would he. seriously though I an glad I have daughters as I have seen enough to know it is even harder for the black male. At least you are aware of these issues which can only help your son as he gets older. Now to try and find a black doll for DDs!!

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 14:52:15

White supremecy is alive on this thread? Really Freudian? I think the most racists comments have beem against white people as born out by the comments that have been deleted.

Other than the shot to the heart, the only wound the coroner found was an old cut on one finger. No offensive or defensive wounds other than the shot to the heart. It is unlikely that attacking would not have left any marks on Trayvon who didn't even have blood on his hands (meaning he didn't grab the wound and say you got me as Zimmerman had stated, according to the coroner's report he would have felt the pain for 1-10 minutes but was unable to move nor did he attack Zimmerman enough to draw blood on his hands).

Zimmerman was told by 911 dispatches specifically to not follow Trayvon. Zimmerman used specifically black racial slurs in referring to him in the phone call. He made it very clear in his phone call that Trayvon's race was why he felt he needed to be followed.

The judge disallowed both Trayvon's school records as well as Zimmerman's criminal records (which include grievous assault, sexual molestation and rape charges in Virginia). Also disallowed experts to prove it was Trayvon's voice pleading for help on the phone call.

The prosecutors allowed a girl to go on the stand unprepared, and along with the defense mocked the girl's speech. They allowed family and friends to be torn apart, similar to the Stephen Lawrence case. They basically allowed it to become a case not of Zimmerman's guilt but whether Trayvon deserved to die. Put on trial for his own murder.

Whether or not Latino Zimmerman has White passing privileged is by-the-by now, race is purposefully hierarchical and a light skinned Latino man over a Black teenager will win every time. That Latino man will be getting his gun back. Just as a White man (not all Caucasians are White) wins almost over everyone else, that's why they're mainly in charge of the dictionary which makes it purely about disliking a race (prejudice) rather than about the systematic institutional created hierarchies put in place to cover their butts and keep them in power.

Also in the news:
A Florida Black woman shoots her gun into the air to frighten off her ex-partner who by his own admission was there to harm her - she gets jail - 20 years in jail for no one getting hurt.

A trans* Black woman defends herself against Neo-nazis gets jail.

A Black man's home is invaded by White neo-nazis in New York who threaten and attack his family, gets jail.

Bad year to be Black in America, just like every other year then.

The news may make plays at riots, but there is little evidence other than their fears. There are planned marches, nothing else. Personally, I'm more afraid for my families still in the States of more Zimmermans.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 14:56:53

I don't know if either of you have come across this site before www.blackbeautydolls.com/

SpecialAgent and emuloc but it does black toys for boys and girls.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 14:58:19

Meanwhile, in Cobb County, Ga., four gangbangers beat a randomly chosen white man until he staggers out into traffic where he is run over and killed. Luckily, it’s not a hate crime…

And this relates to Trayvon's death how? Unless of course you're arguing that minorities are dangerous and thus any crime involving them couldn't possibly be racially motivated... Plus Zimmerman was not charged with a hate crime so again... Relevance?

But I don't think anyone would be that callous, so as I've clearly misunderstood your point of raising that case, please explain?

Cheerful Yes, it breaks my heart I need to teach my DC from as young as possible in an age appropriate way how they should handle discrimination. sad

I know but if he had shot a white boy (which under the same circumstances I am quite sure he would not have done) the verdict would be different and we would not even be debating this

^

This. Bar a couple of posters (one disgustingly bigoted) no one is actually claiming Zimmerman wasn't a racist, just what sentence he should have faced.

The way Zimmerman handled his reaction to Martin, plus the fact he received no sentence at all in any way, does come across like there was not only racist intent on his part, but a racist reaction by a 'jury of his peers.'

If it is to be believed this lunatic was racially motivated by his desperation to be The Big Bad Cop/Saviour Of The Town, the fact his own 'peers' agreed suggests inherent racism.

It breaks my heart not only did Trayvon not get justice, his grave is now tainted by the suggestion he provoked a thuggish attack.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 15:02:14

Old

Gangbangers? What are they then? As mayor explained to me that it is a term used in a derogatory fashion against Hispanic males - why say gangbangers when you should say Hispanic men?
Are you trying to argue that all ethnic minorities are dangerous, that white people never commit hate crimes? Surely not?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 15:04:39

Thank you Ali!! I wasn't aware but looks like I know what to get DS and DTS (both more into dolls than DTD, especially DS!) for Christmas. grin Plus, seeing that site has all sorts of toys not just baby dolls I have somewhere I can provide a mixture of toys for my babies throughout their lives. Again, I know I'm a bit gushy (sorry blush) but huuuuuuge weight off of my shoulders. Think kids may get a few surprise treats soon for no reason! wink

Exactly emuloc Heaven forbid a black man have emotions, he must be full of rage and ready to kill at any moment! angry

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 15:08:10

Ali Thank you for the link.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 15:10:08

No worries smile glad you both think it will be useful!

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 15:16:43

Aside from the race aspect the major issue has to be surrounding the right to bear arms surely? If Zimmerman wasn't armed an innocent boy would still be alive

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 15:17:41

I got a lovely link PMed to me, happy to share it if anyone is interested.

Lots of great Christmas ideas now! DH will be just as happy, sick of going into 'mainstream' stores and never seeing a black/Asian/Mixed face on a toy or book. Surely black people and Asian people are mainstream enough to warrant a book and doll that isn't pink faced! Think DC will get a few treats soon smile

/Rant blush PM me you would like the great link that I was sent.

Anyway, back to thread point...

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 15:21:06

Exactly Power! If this case had Zimmerman charged with anything, then people would want to know why such a violent man was allowed to strut around with a gun.

Much easier to let him off on self defence but at the same time have America argue that while yes, well, in their opinion he's a murderer, he had the right to defend himself....

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 15:22:25

the point made earlier about the white british tourists murdered by the black teenager or the white man killed by the Hispanic thugs is that when something happens to white people it is investigated immediately and investigated thoroughly. when something happens to black people, the police may, or may not, investigate depending on whether they can be bothered or not.

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 15:22:51

That scares me so much, how has anyone got the right to rob someone of their life and their parents of a child I'm just so glad we don't have similar gun law in UK

mayorquimby Sun 14-Jul-13 15:26:24

"Zimmerman used specifically black racial slurs in referring to him in the phone call. He made it very clear in his phone call that Trayvon's race was why he felt he needed to be followed. "

Where is this coming from?
I thought the only time he mentioned race was when questioned, although this was edited out of the initial recordings played by some media outlets to support the polemic they were going with at the time.
And what slurs were used?

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 15:26:35

Also if he did decide to kill Trayvon but wasn't in possession of a gun he would of had to beat him to death to kill him something which a court would struggle to brush aside on a self defence excuse

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 15:30:02

testing

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 15:31:39

Sorry ignore last post.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 15:37:38

Also if he did decide to kill Trayvon but wasn't in possession of a gun he would of had to beat him to death to kill him something which a court would struggle to brush aside on a self defence excuse

Exactly. I feel like it's easier for the American government in these cases to allow racists to walk free rather than be challenged on their gun laws.

IMHO, this case is multi layered, with the issues being racism and guns.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 15:53:07

"Zimmerman used specifically black racial slurs in referring to him in the phone call. He made it very clear in his phone call that Trayvon's race was why he felt he needed to be followed."

Either you're very ignorant and foolish enough to take what the main stream media says at face value, or you have an agenda to mis-represent the evidence (which has been the very foundation of Trayvon Martin's defence) for nefarious purposes.

For anyone who is wondering, the mainstream media played the following excerpt from the call countless times:

"He looks black"

Editing out the immediately preceding question from the operator:

"What does he look like, white, hispanic, black?" (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it)

There was also an inaudible muttering by Zimmerman generally accepted to be "fucking punks", but a certain section of agenda pushing morons decided to claim this was "fucking coons". This is what the rather misinformed poster quoted is referring to.

Regardless of skin colour a young man has lost his life & no-one is being held accountable-he had a drink & some skittles ffs, the story has made me so very sad sad

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 16:09:20

OldMacEIEIO

Why did you link that story? how did that help your argument?

All that proves is how differently suspects are treated when they are black and their victim is white. instant justice.

The four suspects — 19-year-old Jekari Oshay Strozier and 18-year-olds Antonio Shantwan Pass, Johnathan Donald Anthony and Kemonta Bond, all from Mableton — have been held without bond since last week at the Cobb County jail on charges of felony murder, aggravated assault and violating the Georgia Street Gang Act

As much as I believe this judgement flies in the face of natural justice, I think Ecclesvet's 12:11 post is a very good summary of the assumed reasons for Zimmerman's acquittal. After reading that, I could understand why he was acquitted though it sets my teeth on edge.

It would be nice to think Zimmerman will spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder and pissing his pants at the sound of a pin dropping. Unfortunately the murderers of Emmett Till, a far more unequivocal and premeditated case than this one, never got their just deserts and died in their beds little old men. sad

crazynanna Sun 14-Jul-13 16:26:28

I am white, I have a gold tooth, and I do understand creightons anger/attitude.
As a by the by, Tidy, when you tell creightons to stop speaking as she/he does as people will not listen,who are you representing? Which "people"? Because it isn't me for one

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 16:28:26

This thread is embarassing... The coverage of the whole case has been ridiculous. So many people think they know more than the judge and jury that have all the evidence and deliberated over it.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 16:32:54

Tabitha

Juries have been known to make the wrong decision despite having all the evidence in front of them. As have judges. All human,all fallible.

WestieMamma Sun 14-Jul-13 16:36:17

I can see why the jury would conclude that the case hadn't been made for murder, although I disagree with it. But does anyone know why he wasn't convicted of manslaughter?

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 16:37:27

But what other possible verdict could there be in this case? It was obvious from day one that he would be found not guilty. The case only went to court because of pressure from the media who misrepresented what happened.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 16:38:24

Manslaughter Tabitha would be the possible verdict from this case.

I'm surprised you even have to ask.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 16:42:55

Unfortunately in thousands of years of civilisation it seems we still haven't grown past the point of most people making their mind up in the first half second they hear about something, then rationalising away all the detailed evidence that comes out later.

Despite the fact that an initially correct call by the police was overridden, an international media campaign was used to smear and misrepresent Zimmerman's character and even his ethnicity, whilst all of Martins failings were surpressed, a highly skilled and experienced police chief was removed to ensure charges were brought following massive political pressure to placate uninformed mobs in certain parts of the community, the most powerful man in the world claiming Trayvon as the son he never had, irregularities in the trial and more, they still couldn't make it stick in court. And yet people are still claiming this as evidence that the system didn't convict Zimmerman because the dead teenager was black, and that there is no question of his guilt.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 16:43:11

Why would manslaughter be a possible verdict?

"Even for manslaughter, the jury had to find that George Zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of Trayvon Martin. but was told that “a killing that is excusable or was committed by the use of justifiable deadly force is lawful.” The jury instruction on deadly force states in part: “A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.” "

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 16:44:39

That quote is from this article by liberal law professor Jonathan Turley

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 16:47:40

What was the evidence used to prove he feared imminent death or great bodily harm? Out of interest?

I wonder how that defence would go in a UK court. "I killed him self defence after I followed and actually created the situation that required me to defend myself". hmm

I find it appalling that the right to bear arms still exists, such an outdated,wilfully misunderstood law.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 16:49:09

Tabitha

Thank you for quote,it is interesting. Though familiar with UK law,the ins and outs of American law (particularly because it varies between states) is significantly different and varied.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 16:51:13

How did Zimmerman cause Martin to attack him?

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 16:57:07

Tabitha How did Trayon cause the guy to shoot hin.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 16:58:45

By being on top of him and punching him in the head repeatedly, confirmed by ballistics reports and the testimony of the medical examiner.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 17:00:33

Why was he supposedly doing that. have you even thought about that for one second.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 17:05:39

So that might not have had something to do with a gun being waved at him then? By a random stranger? So he definitely didn't "attack" Zimmerman because he perceived his own life to be in danger? Definitely not? Trayvon Martin can't have punched Zimmerman in self defence but Zimmerman can shoot and kill in self defence?

American laws are awesome hmm

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 17:07:04

I'm not ignoring anything ashoe
Hispanics face disgusting racism in the US
But they are not as feared as black men.
Black males are seen as sexually and generally agressive, historically and in the present.

Not much different from over here.
If you doubt it walk down the street a few paces behind my DS1 .

I don't want to go into details but some dibby little bitch's (I'm not going to apologise for using that word in this instance) deep rooted prejudices could have ruined our lives recently.
But of course that's just me being paranoid and pulling the race card hmm

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 17:09:03

Gun being waved at him? Citation?

If you don't have one, please stick to real evidence, not things you've made up to support what you'd like to think happened.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 17:10:56

Unless there was CCTV footage of what happened then nobody knows what actually happened staffie

We have the word of Zimmerman and that's it. Forensics and ballistic reports can only do so much you know.

crazynanna Sun 14-Jul-13 17:11:12

It took 20 years to bring Mr Lawrence's racist killers to justice here in the UK. This poor bugger in the US I feel doesn't have a chance

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 17:11:43

Having a gun is legal in Florida. You can't physically attack someone merely for having a gun and then claim it was self defence.

If Trayvon had kept walking he'd still be alive today. Instead he turned back to confront and attack Zimmerman.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 17:13:03

Yes carrying a gun is legal. Threatening somebody with it vigilante style is not.

You can have pre emptive self defence by the way. HTH.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 17:13:19

Alis, usually in absence of any evidence you don't go making stuff up and stating them as facts to fill in the blanks.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 17:13:50

Comparing this case to the Stephen Lawrence murder is utterly ridiculous. The media has been appalling in the most part on their reporting, Gary Younge's article in the Guardian today is particularly bad.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 17:14:14

TabithaStephens Why oh Why did you not tell us before that you was there when this happened.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 17:14:41

Staffie

Can you read? I said might. Generally speaking when one says might the inference is that one is not stating something as fact.

Hassled Sun 14-Jul-13 17:15:50

Very depressing comparison here with another case - here a black woman fired a warning shot to defend herself against violent partner and was jailed for 20 years. Even the violent partner says it was only a warning and self-defence.

limitedperiodonly Sun 14-Jul-13 17:19:31

It matters because its adding to the media hype and encouraging people to think of "poor Trayvon" instead of encouraging a balanced view

I definitely think some people on this thread should be encouraged to think 'poor Trayvon'.

He's dead and guilty of no more than being a 17 year old boy who appears to have confronted someone who had the arrogance to believe he had no right to be where he was.

If poor Trayvon had been a bit older and more experienced about the havoc people like Zimmerman can wreak he might have swallowed it and be alive today. Still wouldn't make it right though.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 17:20:59

I can read, the implication was clear. I would recommend taking literacy classes or perhaps studying a foreign language if you are unable to discern from your published comment why it is interpreted as such.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 17:23:41

It is so depressing to read stories like this. The injustices against black people just goes on and on.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 17:23:45

If Trayvon had kept walking he'd still be alive today. Instead he turned back to confront and attack Zimmerman

If the roles were reversed you wouldn't be saying that.

As I said before, Trayvon on trial for his own murder.

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 17:23:51

Yeah that uppity black boy should've just kept on walking. How dare he question why someone was following him.
Must tell my boys that.
Just nod and smile and 'yus sir, whatever you say sir'

hmm

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 17:23:57

Clearly not to you,as you're still not getting it.

WestieMamma Sun 14-Jul-13 17:24:56

Why would manslaughter be a possible verdict?

Because there are different types of manslaughter. The quote you give relates to voluntary manslaughter but US law also has other types. For example, if you create a situation where someone dies/is killed by acting recklessly then you can be found guilty of manslaughter.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 17:27:26

MrsD

That seems to be exactly what some posters are implying.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 17:30:22

The injustices against black people just goes on and on.

This is quite possible true, however the saying "pick your battles" is very apt here. The black community was very unwise to go all in to back this case to highlight injustice against black people, given that all the evidence available supports Zimmerman and even political presume from the most powerful person in the world couldn't get him convicted.

Same as the OJ Simpson case, in that instance having street parties and so on to celebrate the acquittal of once of the most obviously guilty people in history doesn't help the equality cause.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 17:32:49

Nothing quite possible about it at all.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 17:37:43

Was Zimmerman really acting recklessly by acting as a neighbourhood watchman in watching someone he didn't know walking around their gated community?

If Trayvon had kept walking he'd still be alive today. Instead he turned back to confront and attack Zimmerman

How can we know that?? Zimmerman had already ignored an order from 911 to step back. You could just as easily make the case for trigger happy thwarted cop spoiling for a fight whatever the victim did (or didn't do). We only have Zimmerman's word for how the physical confrontation started - cant cross examine Trayvon.

jacks365 Sun 14-Jul-13 17:40:10

Injustices against black people do go on however with everything I've read the right verdict was reached. Yes zimmerman followed him yes zimmerman shot him but there are question marks over the sequence of events ie had zimmerman lost martin and headed back to his car and then martin attacked him? Did zimmerman threaten martin first or vice versa, following is not threatening by the way. The answers aren't really known so the jury had reasonable doubt.

It was an awful incident but no one knows whether it was murder or not hence not guilty.

Same as the OJ Simpson case, in that instance having street parties and so on to celebrate the acquittal of once of the most obviously guilty people in history doesn't help the equality cause

I'm white and have never been totally convinced Simpson did the dirty deed himself.

WestieMamma Sun 14-Jul-13 17:40:22

Was Zimmerman really acting recklessly by acting as a neighbourhood watchman in watching someone he didn't know walking around their gated community?

Probably not, but he may well have crossed that line when he ignored the instructions from the police dispatcher to do things his own way.

limitedperiodonly Sun 14-Jul-13 17:42:58

I still think letting Zimmerman off the hook provides a cosy distraction to the subject of WTAF was a man with so many criminal charges on him allowed to carry a gun around?!

Sorry. Just going back through the thread after a day out.

That's a bloody good point specialagent. It doesn't matter what colour you are. If I lived on that estate, I'd be complaining bitterly that such a person was allowed a position of authority or allowed to think he had the right to authority over me.

I wonder what other transgressors Zimmerman felt he had the right to keep the streets safe from?

I assume the estate had some kind of private security patrol. Why did they think it was okay to allow someone with convictions for violence to join them? And why did the police not tell them this was a bad idea? I doubt you can be in any US police force if you have a conviction for violence. That's why some ex-coppers here and there have to join private security firms hmm

I understand he has the right to bear arms, but giving someone like him a deputy's badge is asking for it. Which is apparently what Trayvon Martin did hmm

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 17:42:59

We only have the word of a violent, aggressive man who was told not to pursue Trayvon by the police of what happened. We don't know he turned back. And so what if he did turn back, does that mean he deserves to die? Of course it fucking doesn't. He was walking back from the shop FFS, he wasn't doing anything wrong.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 17:46:14

Try telling a few of the posters on here that.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 17:48:12

ignored the instructions from the police dispatcher

What instructions?

dispatcher: are you following him?
zimmerman: yeah
dispatcher: ok, we don't need you to do that.

That isn't an instruction and it isn't an order. Why do people persist in making things up when the information is publicly available to show what was really said?

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 17:49:36

What part of we dont need you to do that needs translating.

Chanatan Sun 14-Jul-13 17:50:19

There,s another thread here where anybody defending Trayvon Martin has accused of being blackangry

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 17:52:33

"We don't need you to do that" isn't an order, and even if it was, Police Dispatchers have no kind of authority to issue orders.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 17:53:26

"We don't need you to do that" is not an order. I'm really not going to explain something so basic in the English language to another (presumably) adult.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 17:55:54

Its amazing that there are so many people on mn who know so much about the American legal system and the laws of evidencehmm

Just because you happen to not agree with the verdict does not mean it was not the correct one based on the evidence presented to the jury.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 17:59:21

We dont need you to do that does not translate into follow and then get into whatever and end up taking a life now does it. Unless I have not understood plain english.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 18:03:48

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here, but generally in life, absence of somebody telling you what to do does not mean you must do nothing. Free will is good like that.

WestieMamma Sun 14-Jul-13 18:06:04

Its amazing that there are so many people on mn who know so much about the American legal system and the laws of evidence

When I did my law degree there was lots of looking at the laws in other jurisdictions. Partly from a 'compare and contrast' perspective and partly because they can be cited in the UK system.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 18:08:57

I also have a law degree.In Scotland.As does my dh. I still wouldn't presume to know the evidential laws of another country.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 18:09:07

Are people really suggesting that judges and juries never get it wrong? hmm

Bloody hell

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 18:10:30

In this case, given the evidence presented to them, there is no possible way that they could have found Zimmerman guilty. If you think otherwise, please explain where they went wrong.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 18:14:07

Not suggesting that there are no miscarriages of justice at all. I am merely pointing out that just because you happen to not agree with a verdict does not mean that it is wrong based on the word of the law. And a jury of this man's peers-despite all the media hoopla-found George Zimmerman not guilty of murder based on the evidence presented to them.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 18:16:56

Has anyone mentioned yet that the prosecution are in trouble for withholding evidence from the defence counsel? The whole trial was an utter farce, only brought about through media pressure, and Obama's statement.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 18:22:07

I don't think that's what I said, Tabitha/ashoething.

What do you mean by 'the whole trial was a farce' Tabitha? Do you mean that there shouldn't have been one?

WestieMamma Sun 14-Jul-13 18:22:08

I understand why the jury reached the verdict they did, with the evidence they had. What I disagree with is a system which allows a civilian with a violent criminal record to carry a firearm, pursue someone innocently going about their business, get into an altercation with them which results in their death and then walk away without any culpability. Rights come with responsibilities and if someone exercises their right to carry a gun they should also carry the responsibility of being fully responsible for the consequences of them doing so.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 18:24:23

There shouldn't have been a trial. The police handled it correctly in the first place, as has been born out by the result of the trial. It was a justifiable homicide.

limitedperiodonly Sun 14-Jul-13 18:24:58

We're now talking about dispatchers' orders, are we?

It wasn't an order. It was informed advice to prevent trouble that Zimmerman chose to ignore. He may have come off worse. Except he was armed with a gun and a metaphorical white hat.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 18:28:58

Whether or not someone should be able to carry a gun is a whole other debate though.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 18:31:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

GoshAnneGorilla Sun 14-Jul-13 18:33:19

What! Of course there should've been a trial. The police should not just take someone's word over shooting an unarmed person dead.

Ffs sake, the police didn't even bother to investigate initially, that's part of what caused the outcry.

Would you happy for there to be no trial in the Oscar Pistorius case either, or is that different because a pretty white lady is dead, rather then a "threatening looking" black teen?

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 18:35:37

Kiriwawa, I like how rather than answer a reasonable question about where the jury went wrong, you went straight in with a personal attack. Almost as subtle as flinging your own actual shit and screaming obscenities.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 18:39:30

I don't think it is actually Ashoething. I think it's a good thing to question other countries' laws. That's the way that countries with poor human rights records generally improve the way they deal with their people - through external pressure from the international community.

Unfortunately, the US has largely considered itself outwith these international sanctions. But I hope that the drip drip effect will gradually have an effect as their human rights record is becoming increasingly difficult to defend.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 18:41:31

staffie - of course there should have been a trial so I didn't feel that Tabitha's post deserved a reasonable response.

A man shot an unarmed teenager who wasn't actually doing anything wrong as far as we know. His big error was coming into contact with George Zimmerman

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 18:42:07

It is another debate-the question raised in this thread was whether it was unreasonable that George Zimmerman was found guilty. Not Aibu to think the gun laws in America need to be changed.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 18:43:11

AS far as you know?-the evidence presented to the trial was that trayvon attacked George Zimmerman. This is the evidence that the jury accepted to be true.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 18:44:12

Apologies-I meant not guilty in my previous post.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 18:47:39

Let's not revisit that again - we all have different perspectives.

The OP asked 'where is the justice for Trayvon Martin?' so I think it's totally valid to consider US gun laws and the general failings of the US justice system

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 18:51:30

Neither is there any evidence that the deceased wasn't doing anything wrong or suspicious. All we know is he was later pounding the crap out of some guy who may or may not have had reasonable cause to follow him previously. I'd rather we didn't convict people by filling in the blanks about what happened, doesn't seem like a sensible way to run a legal system.

Ultimately seems to be an issue about widespread gun ownership escalating incidents that otherwise would be less severe, but that's a different debate.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 18:57:15

You don't need to have "a reasonable case" to follow someone!

I think the problem for the public is that we were given a lot more information by the media - some false, some true but was dismissed by the judge or not used or prepared well by the prosecution (their treatment of their witness Rachael was horrible). Zimmerman's support's online played a media campaign with a lot of false information as well which has caused a backlash in many corners as a lot of their information was highly racist and has tinted the entire thing for many - particularly for those who live in that area where it became overwhelmingly wall-to-wall media at times.

It's also easy to forget that in many areas, police corruption (and police 'targets' that lead to stop and searches - see NYC) has gotten so bad that people are making 'how to deal with police' for civilians and having "the talk" includes teaching kids how to handle authority so they don't get killed and reminding them that, in the States at least, police are allowed to lie to them so they have to know their rights and be calm while doing so. Even LeVar Burton, the most loved and wealthy Black actors in America has a procedure to prevent police shooting him, that shows what little faith in the system many people have. Most of us never expected Zimmerman to be found guilty - as it is said: the system is built to get the results it wants.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 19:16:52

Both the defence and the prosecution both agreed that Zimmerman described him as 'a fucking punk' before they'd made any bodily contact.

As far as I can see, this was a bloke with previous convictions for violence with a gun. Faced with a teenager who also had convictions (but not for violence). Bloke challenges kid, there's an altercation, bloke shoots kid.

It seems to me that it's entirely impossible not to view it from a UK 'reasonable force' lens (although I've spent a long time living in the US). It's a challenge that isn't made in the US but that's how I'm processing it (and probably many others are - this is a largely UK based forum after all)

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 19:17:34

The amount of false imformation given by the media skewed towards making Zimmerman appear guilty - "Trayvon shot dead while walking home with skittles and iced tea", editing part of his conversation with dispatcher out, misrepresenting him saying "punk" as saying "coon", repeatedly showing a years old picture of trayvon as a young boy when more recent photos were available, far outweighs anything put out in defence of Zimmerman, most of which was put out by people on twitter and facebook, not so-called "trusted" news sources.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 19:18:05

OFFS - double negative shame

It's impossible to avoid the fact that ...

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 19:26:03

Trayvon did not have a criminal record Kiri.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 19:30:36

yes he did littlemisswise

Hurley’s detectives, all of them veterans with excellent records, told a different story under oath when questioned by Internal Affairs. They knew the shell game was about to be exposed upon first learning that Martin was one of their students and outside agencies would be requesting his records.

“Oh, God, oh, my God, oh, God,” one major reportedly said when first looking at Martin’s data. He realized that Martin had been suspended twice already that school year for offenses that should have gotten him arrested – once for getting caught with a burglary tool and a dozen items of female jewelry, the second time for getting caught with marijuana and a marijuana pipe.

In each case, the case file on Martin was fudged to make the crime less serious than it was. As one detective told IA, the arrest statistics coming out of Martin’s school, Michael Krop Senior, had been “quite high,” and the detectives “needed to find some way to lower the stats.” This directive allegedly came from Hurley.

“Chief Hurley, for the past year, has been telling his command staff to lower the arrest rates,” confirmed another high-ranking detective

Tabitha - The most common picture wasn't years old, just six months, and the most recent picture shows he still looked like a young boy. Many pictures flying around weren't even him. Snopes dissects pictures

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 19:33:46

the judge ruled it inadmissible - clarification

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 19:39:40

Really OldMac? Earlier in the thread it was said he didn't, and Wiki says he had no juvenile record.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 19:42:05

yes, its a bit of a debate in the US. the charges were downgraded, then denied then it all came out.

no reason to get shot though, obv.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 19:43:26

Spork you've posted that link multiple times but it doesn't offer any evidence to back up what you're saying it merely claims the photo was 9 months old. Googling doesn't offer any reliable source to the age of that photo, there's something about the family attorney claiming he is 16 in that picture, although that isn't proof. In any case, it makes him look a lot younger, shorter and baby-faced than he actually was, so is a bizarre choice of photo if the desired effect was to present a realistic image.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 19:49:03

Charges for what?

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 19:53:29

Staffie, you are probably right, but it doesn't matter.
I dont care how baby faced they look, a 17 year old male, coming at you at full speed in kill-mode is blooming terrifying.
I have no idea if he terrified the zimmerman guy or not, but I wouldn't rule it out because ' he was a kid out buying sweets'.

btw, both men were the same weight at the time - 200 pounds

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 19:54:34

There were no charges, all was based on a bag search at school and the searchers interpretation of their contents.

He had no criminal record.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 19:57:36

Still waiting to hear what charges Trayvon had against him.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 19:59:00

amber leaf
'he was caught with stuff that should have gotten him arrested'

thats a direct quote from the officials concerned.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 20:01:01

Still waiting.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:04:11

The point being made is that he had committed offences that fit the criteria for prosecution, but was not prosecuted for whatever reason. Whether he had an actual criminal record in the legal sense is arguing semantics and rather tedious.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 20:04:23

'a 17 year old male, coming at you at full speed in kill-mode is blooming terrifying'

Do you have any evidence for that one? Or is that your interpretation?

And I'm sorry for buying that Trayvon had convictions, I was trying to be unbiased. Interesting how so many people are keen to make those 'real' but gloss over Zimmerman's very real convictions for violence and assault.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 20:04:28

So there were no charges!hmm

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:05:13

Trayvon Martin was not 200lbs.

Trayvon weighed 158lb.

WestieMamma Sun 14-Jul-13 20:08:45

The point being made is that he had committed offences that fit the criteria for prosecution, but was not prosecuted for whatever reason. Whether he had an actual criminal record in the legal sense is arguing semantics and rather tedious.

Seriously? I've never heard of someone's right to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law described as 'semantics and rather tedious' before. I find that view point rather frightening.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:11:01

No charges.

No convictions.

No criminal record.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:12:04

And I find it rather odd that you can never accept that somebody has done something that implies bad character unless somebody takes them to court and wins the case. I guess we should stop moaning about the toilet seat being left up unless we create a court case to prove it happened and win.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:13:18

Jimmy Saville must be innocent too...

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:14:53

The point being made is that he had committed offences that fit the criteria for prosecution, but was not prosecuted for whatever reason. Whether he had an actual criminal record in the legal sense is arguing semantics and rather tedious

He hadn't commited offence, where was that proven in court?

He had no criminal record so stop trying to justify his murder by slurring his name.

Shall we talk instead about zimmermans criminal record?

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 20:15:00

Now who is being obtuse.

emuloc Sun 14-Jul-13 20:16:16

The last post was for Staffie99

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 20:16:38

158 pounds ? eh ?

he was a six foot three american football player.

amberleaf - you have been looking at wikipedia havn't you

zimmerman was a five foot nine porker wannabe sherriff.

I do keep posting it because people keep calling him a thug and most of the thug images that have been posted on the internet aren't him. Some don't even look a thing like him and were purposefully used to smear a dead 17 year old.

Yes, he was 16 in that first photo - because it's 6 month before he was shot. His birthday's the 5th of February and he was shot on 26th. A 6 month old photo would be when he was 16. The last two photos on that site are him at 17 - days before he was shot. Compare the two picture, he doesn't look that different. I could show you the pictures of him dead lying on the ground like MSNBC and Gawker did so you can compare his size if needed.

OldMac - You don't seem very concerned by how scared Trayvon was about having a man following him with a gun in police-wanna-be mode (in a society where even the most beloved and wealthy black men like LeVar Burton are afraid of being shot by police and police brutality has been come a national issue with the few Black judges creating 'how to deal with police' seminars and videos for the community).

Zimmerman admits to being the aggressor, he admitted as part of his defence that he racially profiled him and his defense was that he was justified doing so and apparently 6 women agreed with him. The prosecution was useless, didn't prep it's witnesses well, and basically handed it over. The system is designed to get what it wants.

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 20:18:40

Noone is arguing that george zimmerman is entirely innocent though?

OldMac - he played football, you don't need to be 6' 3" to do that. Read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin his weight and height as determined by the coroner as is Zimmerman size when he was arrested.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:22:15

I'm not slurring his name, just pointing out what somebody else was getting at.

Trayvon Martin did have a history of drug use, violence and being caught with artifacts that make it likely he was involved in burglaries. These facts are not in dispute by anybody connected with the case. Personally I judge people by their actions, not what their police file says. I wouldn't mingle with rapists and the like just because nobody successfully prosecuted them, but if legal documents are the measure of a person in your eyes, go for it (incidentally, Zimmermans legal documents say he is not guilty of murder, cognitive dissonance for you to deal with).

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:22:32

amberleaf - you have been looking at wikipedia havn't you

Nope

Ive been reading Trayvons autopsy report, will that do?

He was 5ft 11inches and weighed 158lbs. [11stone 2lb]

Where are you getting your 'info' from?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 20:23:48

I really wouldnt cite wiki as a reliable source of information.

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 20:24:39

This is dreadful. A young boy is dead, with no sanction for his killer, and his name is now being smeared???

cosydressinggown Sun 14-Jul-13 20:24:40

I'm pretty disgusted and upset about the whole thing. Mind you, I shouldn't be surprised at this from a country that has an unbelievable sickening, arrogant attitude towards guns. Poor little kid, and his poor family. Whether he hit Zimmerman or not, Zimmerman fucking STALKED him through the streets, because he was black and wearing a hooded top. If he had done as he was told and not followed him then this would not have happened. Perhaps if someone came following after me I'd punch them too. Zimmerman shot him at point blank range in the chest - he didn't attempt a warning shot or a leg - he is a free murderer and it sickens me.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 20:25:38

OldMac my DS is 16, he is 6ft3 and a rugby player. He weighs just under 11stone which is less than 158lbs.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:25:38

Have to say Martin doesn't look 200lbs in the better picture of him from a week before he died, 160lbs sounds more likely. At nearly 6ft though he would certainly have the capacity to appear intimidating.

passmetheprozac Sun 14-Jul-13 20:26:24

I am not sure if I am right in this but (with trepidation) I will put it out there.

Is this a case that should have been subject to a media blackout?. Everything (and I mean everything) recorded, as in the court proceeding, evidence, everything on a black out until the verdict. Nothing reported but accountable until after the verdict.

I understand that there is so much emotion and rightly so, about this case.

I do not believe that justice was served, I believe that Zimmerman needs to answer for what he did.

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 20:27:42

So what if he had the capacity to "appear intimidating"? God, so do a lot of people depending on the eye of the beholder but it doesn't mean they deserve to be shot!

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 20:28:04

Zimmerman had a violence as well, against police and women iirc.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:28:18

He did answer for what he did in court. His answers led to him being acquitted. Not every tragic sequence of events needs to end in a prosecution.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:30:05

My son is the same height as Trayvon and weighs 5lb less than him.

He's slim and not at all physically 'intimidating'

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 20:30:15

This one should have. Zimmerman got to murder someone with impunity thanks to living on a fundamentally racist society with an utterly fucked-up relationship with firearms.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:31:04

littlemisswise yes I believe that is also true. I wouldn't really want to be Zimmermans friend either tbh. But that doesn't mean he needs to be locked up. Both of these characters had dubious histories, as is often the case in these sort of incidents.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 20:31:26

Ashoething

Wikipedia heavily monitors it's pages which contain information people are likely to maliciously tamper with actually.

So isn't a bad source of information outright.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 20:32:30

ashoething
I think that zimmerman was a wannabe hard man. a sherriff. he had a downer on black guys. He saw someone acting suspicious and he wanted someone to bully. he had a gun.
so he called it in and was advised to leave it, but he didnt.
So he confronted the lad, and he had picked on the wrong bloke.

A few seconds later he was on his back getting his head bashed on the ground. He panicked, lost the plot and went for his gun. pointed it up and bang.

So whatever crimes you can pick out of that, go ahead.
Dickhead in charge of an ego ?
Wilfully looking for a confrontation ?
Entrapment, looking for a fight so he could bully someone ?
Assault ?

He has probably fantisised all his life about being Clint Eastwood and saying go on punk, make my day'

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:34:31

Just in case anyone missed it, my source of info regarding Trayvons height and weight came from his autopsy report not wikipedia.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 20:34:55

"Perhaps if someone came following after me I'd punch them too."

Really? This is reasonable behaviour?

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 20:36:03

Tabitha, more fucking reasonable than shooting them dead.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:36:23

OldMacEIEIO again, where are you getting your info that Trayvon was 6ft 3 and 200lb?

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:36:43

Tabitha, you'd feel pretty bad too if they were just returning the purse you dropped.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 20:37:04

Shooting them dead when they are straddling you on the ground and punching you in the face? How would you react to that happening to you?

Ashoething Sun 14-Jul-13 20:37:50

But the crime hee was charged with was murder snd a jury of his peers aqquitted him based on the evidence presented to them. Just because you dont agree withe verdict doesnt mean that it was the wrong verdict as pertained in a court of law.

edam Sun 14-Jul-13 20:40:32

He was charged with manslaughter as well as murder. I believe there were three charges - two different degrees of murder and manslaughter (according to the Beeb).

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 20:40:44

Shooting them dead when they are straddling you on the ground and punching you in the face?

According to the killer, yet Trayvon had no evidence of punching zimmerman on his hands, no bruising, no blood traces?

curryeater Sun 14-Jul-13 20:42:06

I am really appalled by the apologias for the verdict on this thread. There is a tone of "calm down dear" complacency that reminds me of the Tories who defended apartheid in the 80s (telling me that I was too young to have any sense and would agree with them when I was older); a vile morally bankrupt pragmatism that interprets the status quo with the very smallest and meanest and most minimal sense of our responsibilities to each other, to society, to understanding how we all fit together, how we affect each other.

"I'm asking if "there is no point in talking to white people" is a racist statement."
No. It is absolutely basic and clear to any reasonable people with any political or ethical nous whatsover that terms like "racist" and "sexist" apply asymmetrically, in a way that reflects that absolute asymmetry in power relations between races, on the one hand, and sexes, on the other. Anyone who thinks you can compare a white person making a generalisation on how they expect to be treated by black people, with a black person generalising on how they expect to be treated by white people, is an idiot. Or worse. It blows my mind that any adult on a board like this doesn't know that, or know why, or pretends not to.

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 20:42:25

Not to mention that Zimmerman started the whole situation in the first place.
Pity he wasn't a woman firing a warning shot at her abusive partner. Then he'd have got a nice long jail sentence.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 20:43:22

amberleaf, i got my info from a source other than the autopsy. So I will go with (your) the autopsy numbers.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:43:24

Amberleaf, also according to an eyewitness, and the forensic evidence. But maybe it's all just a conspiracy...

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 20:45:40

Zimmerman started the situation by following someone he didn't recognise and thought looked suspicious. Martin attacked him for following him. Who is it at fault here?

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 20:47:27

Tabitha, martin is clearly at fault for not bowing his head in the presence of a white man and asking for permission to be in that neighbourhood.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 20:48:28

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

diva100 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:49:12

Everrything cosy said, there is something called a conscience, Zimmerman, may be free from jail but will never be free from himself.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:49:25

OldMac, it was generous of you to limit your criticism of that monumentally stupid post to that singular point.

Zimmerman, for racially profiling him and following him with gun after he was told that he didn't need to do that by 911 dispatches (something which he had done over 40 times previously for not liking black kids in his neighbourhood). If you're following with someone with their purse, you call out that you have their purse and wait. You don't follow them down an alley.

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 20:51:58

Racism is at the absolute heart of this disgraceful case. Zimmerman may be half Hispanic but he's very far from black.
There's a distinct whiff of racism from all the Zimmerman apologists too, although I daresay I'll be ripped to shreds for saying so.

themaltesecat Sun 14-Jul-13 20:53:55

Poor young man. His poor family.

Everything about this case is fucked up.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:54:24

Some people are too shy to shout, or are mute. In any case beating someone to a pulp is not a reasonable reaction to being followed, the sensible thing to do is to go somewhere safe/public and call the police. Which would have been convenient, since they were already on their way. If you escalate the situation, don't be surprised if you lose control of it.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 20:57:38

littleSpork - by jove, I think you got it.
Zimmerman did not get away with murder, but he is guilty of racially profiling, following someone with a gun and ignoring the sound advice of control (for which he is a serial offender)

if that is the case against him, what is the punishment ? in your opinion

personally, I would take his gun off him, tar and feather him and run him out of town on a rail

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 20:58:27

Kitty I agree, it was very racist when Martin called Zimmerman a "creepy ass cracker", perhaps these racist views are why he launched into a full scale assault of Zimmerman.

ps. I am being deliberately facetious, but accusing anybody who doesn't immediately side with a black individual as racist is a rather pathetic smear tactic.

curryeater Sun 14-Jul-13 20:58:51

I am trying very hard not to remember the names of people writing the objectionable stuff on here because I will find it hard to be polite to you on other threads even if you are just posting in hard times for tea and sympathy. I don't want to be that sort of twat, but there you go

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 20:58:56

The racists are the ones making a big deal of this case. How many young black boys have been shot dead in the US since this incident happened? Do their lives not matter as much as Martin's? Clearly not because black on black killings don't sell newspapers, get TV ratings, web hits, or the President making statements.

harborhaze Sun 14-Jul-13 20:59:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:00:43

Looking at the pictures of Zimmerman after the 'attack' he doesn't look beaten to a pulp to me! If I was following someone I thought looked suspicious and called it in to the police I would leave it at that and feel I had done my reasonable duty as neighbourhood watch, I just don't see how anyone could feel threatened enough in broad daylight, out on the street with the police on the way to shoot someone, no one is going to convince me otherwise

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 21:01:29

Hear hear curryeater. I've noted with utter disgust the apologists - it's vile.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:02:14

He was pinned to the ground and being punched in the face! How can you not feel threatened by that?

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:03:37

Curryeater and xkittyx, you are completely out of order. "Apologists"? Apologists for what?

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 21:05:00

thepowerof3,
noone will convince you ? not even facts ?

check out the images of the back of zimmermans head. covered in blood.

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 21:06:03

Tabitha, apologists for murder. And a complete lack of compassion.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 21:06:22

Where's the evidence of Zimmerman being punched in the face, Tabitha? His face looks unmarked. There was no abrasion on Martin's hands afaik.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:08:37

Oh dear, now the viewpoint that Martin didn't attack Zimmerman at all (one of the few aspects for which there is reliable evidence) is gaining traction on here. This is just getting silly. No doubt somebody will label me as "objectionable" for highlighting this.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 21:09:10

If he had shared the same race as Trayvon Martin (in whichever variation) this case would already have been filed as a bitterly sad and regrettable case of self defence

would he fuck, hed have been locked up the same day.

Did you read about the woman who fired warning shots into the air and was jailed for 20 years? she was black of course.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 21:10:22

xkittyx ,
apologist for murder. never.
lack of compassion ? well, you've got me there

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:11:38

Read the medical examiners report Kiriwawa.

There was no murder, xkittyx. Even the prosecution agree with that.

Seriously, all the people complaining about the verdict are showing themselves to be completely ignorant, either wilfully so or otherwise. Stop listening to the story that the media are trying to tell and read the facts of the case.

creighton Sun 14-Jul-13 21:12:46

the facts of the case are that a young man was murdered and no one is being held to account for it because the young man was black.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 21:13:55

Zimmerman didn't look beaten to a pulp to me either. I have seen many a person beaten to a pulp (I was a Maxillofacial facial nurse), they have needed extensive facial surgery, and in many cases a week or two in hospital prior to the surgery awaiting the swelling going down before they could even have the surgery. They were not treated at the roadside and let go by paramedics, and the beater would have had marks on their hands!

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:15:42

No, there was no murder. Even the prosecution team have conceded this to be the case. Race has nothing to do with it.

He wasn't beaten to a pulp. He was punched several times and killed Martin to prevent being beaten to a pulp, or worse. Should he have allowed Martin to beat him to a pulp?

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:16:30

He wasn't beaten to a pulp because he defended himself. He was in the process of being beaten to a pulp at the time he fired his gun.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 21:17:37

littlemisswise,
check the images of the back of zimmermans head, then get back to us

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 21:22:11

I have OldMac. He had a couple of small cuts that were bleeding down his head which had not been cleaned. The head is particularly vascular so you would expect to see a lot of bleeding from a small cut. Once the cuts are cleaned they are really quite small, they didn't even require a hospital visit for suturing , infact I think he had 2 butterfly stitches!

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 21:23:14

He had a slightly bloody nose Tabitha. No bones broken and a few lacerations to the back of his head.

If this massive fight to near death had occurred where Zimmerman was fearing for his life then a) Martin would have injuries and/or b) there would be evidence that he'd inflicted injuries where the victim would have felt his life was at risk. I don't know what happened but Zimmerman's story is a crock of shit

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:23:21

How beaten up do you think he should have got before he was justified in shooting?

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 21:25:39

They were not treated at the roadside and let go by paramedics, and the beater would have had marks on their hands!

Yep and Trayvon had no marks on his hands bar a tiny scrape that was old.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:25:47

Maybe he should have just written an indignant letter to the daily mail about it.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 21:26:19

He would never have been justified in shooting IMO, Tabitha, not unless he had a a gun placed against his chest and someone was threatening to shoot him.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:27:29

littlemisswise you are talking utter rubbish.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 21:29:37

What, because I don't think someone should shoot a teenager for no reason? Really?

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:31:39

No, because you don't think someone is justified shooting in self defence when they are pinned to the ground and being assaulted.

Martin's age has nothing to do with anything btw.

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 21:32:08

I don't think she is talking rubbish.
Even the police have to have a bloody good reason to shoot someone.
They have to have a reason to think the person is armed and about to shoot.

Not just be in possession of a black skin and a y chromosome.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:33:17

A policeman would be perfectly justified in shooting an attacker in the same situation Zimmerman was in.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 21:35:15

this wasnt the police. it was an armed knob
who did not have the forethought to ring a Maxillofacial facial nurse to determine whether his head being bashed against the ground required butterfly stitches or a head transplant

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:38:25

What, because I don't think someone should shoot a teenager for no reason? Really?

This is almost comical, the debate starts to make a bit of progress, and then somebody goes back to square one again. He was not shot for "no reason". This is another fact that nobody with any credibility connected to the case disputes.

Kiriwawa Sun 14-Jul-13 21:39:17

Zimmerman could not reasonably believe he was in mortal danger - after all, he knew he had a gun and Trayvon, if he did inflict any wounds at all, inflicted minor ones (if you grab someone's head up and smash it on the floor then there is forensic evidence).

The issue here is that US law is designed to protect the vigilante. It's not really been changed since Wild West days and it's antediluvian.

When I lived in LA, I came home one day and thought I heard someone in my apartment. I went to see my landlord and he said 'one moment' and came back with his gun. When I acted slightly freaked out by it, he said (quite happily) 'Oh don't worry, if there's someone on your property, I can legally shoot them'.

It didn't make me feel any better.

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 21:41:29

The police in this country can't shoot people who they think might give them a smack.

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:42:59

They can shoot people who are giving them a smack if they are prone on the ground with no other means of defending themselves .

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 21:44:33

Er no they wouldn't be Tabitha .

If the police shot everybody they thought might be violent there would be no people in cells and a lot more people in morgues.

As it is they have to believe the person is armed and about to shoot them. MrsDeVere has already explained this.

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:44:55

There is forensic evidence for the attack, I can't believe people are denying it.

By the end of the thread people will be claiming Martin was handing out presents to orphans that he could magically pull out of his backside and giving lifesaving CPR to an old lady when Zimmerman came up behind him, bit Martins knob off and slowly tortured him to death over a period of 48 hours.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 21:47:06

actually Tabitha, it's a good point you make
if zimmerman had been armed with a mace spray, the young lad would still be alive
and zimmerman would still be in theatre waiting for the mace can to be extracted from up his bum

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:47:26

There's no "thought they might be violent" about it. If an armed policeman is prone on the ground being hit in the face with no-one else around to help, they are absolutely entitled to shoot. What else would you have them do?!?

Seriously, the amount of misinformation and ignorance on this thread is astounding.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 21:49:17

Seriously, the amount of misinformation and ignorance on this thread is astounding

It certainly is.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 21:50:22

There is forensic evidence for the attack, I can't believe people are denying it

Have you seen Trayvons autopsy report?

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 21:51:38

Zimmerman isn't a fucking policeman so what is your point?

staffie99 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:52:24

I'm going to try some team Trayvon tactics.

Ok here goes.

Zimmerman didn't shoot Trayvon Martin, there is no evidence. Martin shot himself.

And relax.

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 21:57:01

if you take the massive responsibility of arming yourself with a gun then you should damn well know how to use it, fire warning shot or shoot to injure not kill

xkittyx Sun 14-Jul-13 21:57:32

Team?? This isn't a fucking sports match, a teenager died!

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 21:58:35

This isn't the movies. You do not shoot to injure. If you shoot someone you shoot to kill them.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 21:59:50

the powerof3. yes , that would be a nicer world

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 22:00:45

If you are properly trained in the use of a weapon and you are using it in self defence then yes you do in fact shoot to injure and disable. It might be legal to own a gun but it is not obligatory

TabithaStephens Sun 14-Jul-13 22:02:52

ThePowerof3, you are wrong. You shoot to hit the torso as it is the biggest target. You cannot shoot someone in the torso with an intent to injure and disable.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 22:04:48

thepowerof3,
you are confusing a nicer world with the real world.

why in a million years would you think that people who have guns are properly trained

harborhaze Sun 14-Jul-13 22:05:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 22:06:37

So if I shot you in the leg it wouldn't stun and disable you? Wow now that is like the movies

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 22:08:19

I'm not saying I think they are trained I'm saying I think they should be, it is the individuals decision after all to arm themselves as I said its not obligatory

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 22:12:03

thepowerof3
thats an excellent point about the leg shot. The problem with two blokes grappeling might be persuading the one without the firearm to step back in order to give the other a clear shot.

mind you, I suppose they clould always ask them to hold still.

harborhaze Sun 14-Jul-13 22:12:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThePowerof3 Sun 14-Jul-13 22:16:04

That is true OldMac, I guess it for all these reasons the gun laws need urgent attention. I just wish Zimmerman had listened when he was told not to follow Martin and I hope he wishes that too but obviously it's all too late for any of that

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 22:20:04

thepowerof3, it's not our country.

I agree 100% with you. but we have our own problems, and the professional angst-bearers that have infested the thread (and site) are not helping.

I will look after me and mine

babybarrister Sun 14-Jul-13 22:27:09

US gun laws are totally fucked up - imo it is the NRA who should take a huge amount of the blame.
I also think that there is a weird attitude towards Zimmerman's ethnicity going on though - he is not White - he is a mixed race Hispanic. it is not for anyone else to equate that with being accepted by the 'white' community - I know the Latinos in the US of whatever clout feel equally aggrieved about many issues as the black community do ...

cosydressinggown Sun 14-Jul-13 22:28:55

Yeah well it wasn't someone entering his home with a gun was it. It was an unarmed teenager minding his own business on the way back from the fucking sweet shop.

He got followed, he got violent (scared perhaps? I know I would be!)

Zimmerman called the police (for the 46th time in 4 years) because he saw a black guy in a hooded top and suspected he was on drugs and up to no good because he was 'looking at houses'. He followed him. God knows what he said or did but he ended up getting punched. He then took out a gun and shot someone at point blank range in the chest.

How the fuck is it ok to provoke a situation and then kill someone in 'self defence', especially when you know the police are on their way?

And I don't give a toss what anyone says - one guy killed another guy. That is murder. Self defence whatever bullshit bullshit. He fucking murdered him.

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 22:38:17

"to stop an imminent threat to life"

This is when UK police are permitted to discharge their guns.

And every single shooting is investigated.

The issue we have here is that people tend to feel threatened by black men.

Hence the clutching of handbags and crossing of roads that goes on.

I have no idea why you are so determined to be right tabitha but hysterics and insults do not help your argument.

A policeman, in the uk, who shot a person who was unarmed and showed no signs of being armed, would be in deep shit.

Quite rightly.

So why some big man on the look out for trouble should be allowed to get away with it is beyond me.

OldMacEIEIO Sun 14-Jul-13 22:38:34

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsDeVere Sun 14-Jul-13 22:42:04

I'd like to look after me and mine too.
Cept 'mine' appear to be just the sort of people who can get murdered in the street and get blamed for it.

Look at those poor families who have to make press statements just hours after their sons are killed. They are forced to deny their children were gang members. They have to convince the public that their boys didn't deserve to die.

Its the first fucking question they are asked.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 14-Jul-13 22:43:25

So Old

Wearing a hoodie is not allowed? Being a big bloke is not allowed? Neither of those are criminal offences as far as I know. You'd hate living where I do if you find those things inherently suspicious.

First part of your post I agree,second part not so much.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 22:44:53

There's a distinct whiff of racism from all the Zimmerman apologists too, although I daresay I'll be ripped to shreds for saying so.

Not by me you won't.

The patronising 'calm down dear' tone another poster referenced is spot on.

Team Trayvon, how disgusting FFS.

AmberLeaf Sun 14-Jul-13 22:46:09

'staggering about'? walking or staggering?

I also think that there is a weird attitude towards Zimmerman's ethnicity going on though - he is not White - he is a mixed race Hispanic

He isn't black is the point.

Calling him hispanic is a bit questionable in he US context, people will think mexican/puerto rican, zimmerman has a peruvian mother and a white american father, so I dont think his 'hispanic' experience is the same as most who identify as such.

He followed Trayvon because he was black.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Sun 14-Jul-13 22:47:11

*I'd like to look after me and mine too.
Cept 'mine' appear to be just the sort of people who can get murdered in the street and get blamed for it.*

Same MrsDeVere, so the patronising crap on here really gets my goat.

Can't even protect my kids by saying racial profiling is wrong now apparently.

chocolatespiders Sun 14-Jul-13 22:47:30

and if he saw a big guy in a hoodie staggering about and thought 'ah, it's probbly nuthin'

If you are referring to Trayvon with this then the cctv from when he was in the shop did not show him staggering about

It was raining so why should he not have his hood up, even if it wasnt why should he not have his hood up. My 10 year old dd has many tracksuit tops with hoods and she loves to wear them up.

littlemisswise Sun 14-Jul-13 22:47:51

I totally agree with MrsDV's last post. If my DC were murdered I wouldn't get asked if they were in gangs, etc. If my black, inner city dwelling nephew were murdered my sister would have to convince people he wasn't.

It is absolutely disgusting.