AIBU to have just realised that I have been sexual assaulted many times

(519 Posts)

I had extremely large breasts as a young teen. I was a 30DD at 13 and my size 8 hour glass figure was very popular with the boys hmm.

At 19 I had my breasts reduced on the NHS because my head was fucked.

It is only with many years of hindsight (I am 36) thanks to Mumsnet and a recently developed feminist perspective that I realise that all the 'incidents' that happened to me were sexual assaults/grooming and not my fault.

I have fb'd one of the cu--nts--lprits tonight.

*culprits

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 22:38:52

YANBU

Moomim Sun 23-Oct-11 22:39:40

30DD isn't that big.

Kayano Sun 23-Oct-11 22:40:44

You fb'd them?!

I know what you mean though. I was a G cup at 15... It was pretty terrible and now I'm pg I'm a H cup sad

Can I ask how you get a reduction on the NHS? I'm too scared to look into it blush

YANBU. How are you feeling about it now?

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 22:41:55

Well it's hard to say YABU or YANBU without knowing what the 'incidents' were to be fair.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 22:42:13

kayano...3 of my RL friends got breast reductions on the NHS

they have never looked back, seriously

one of them was swimming in a river and white water rafting 3 months after the op

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 22:44:20

Moomom what a stupid comment

30DD at 13 is bound to draw unwelcome attonetion (unfortunately)

as it would as a grown women, if the rest of your frame is very petite

what are you...competitive for biggest boobs ?

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 22:44:39

crap typing...sorry about that

30DD wasn't that big? It depends on what the incidents were? Are you both having a fucking laugh? I was a 28HH when I got them reduced, is that big enough for you?

The 'incidents' include; my shirt being ripped open at school (very often), being groped in the street by a grown man, being groped by a waiter when sat at a table with my parents, being groomed by a 24 year old man just out of prison and aquiescing to perform sexual favours on him (age 15), to be groped in clubs x20, and finally to be groped by my team leader at work.

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 22:55:02

No of course I'm not having a fucking laugh hmm

Now you've actually told us what the incidents were...YANBU

But please remember no-one here has a crystal ball.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 22:55:25

Oh, that is awful. I'm so sorry.

It makes me really angry the way people will talk about a child as if, because that child has some adult physical features, it somehow doesn't need to be treated age-appropriately. At 13 you deserved to be treated as a young teenager and left alone. angry

I am hoping you get some closure from the fb contact - I couldn't do something like that, impressed at your strength! But take care, won't you? Don't let the pricks get you down about it.

StewieGriffinsMom Sun 23-Oct-11 22:55:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

And you've only just realised you were assaulted? Did you not tell anyone at the time?

Sorry you had to go through that lot

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 22:55:59

You sound very angry, (understandably).. but FB is not the right tool to go about getting revenge.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 22:56:37

Cross-posted (took ages typing, sorry) and have only just seen what actually happened - fucking hell! angry

That's disgusting.

Ilikedrinkingblood Sun 23-Oct-11 22:56:45

God, no wonder you felt your head was fucked. You poor thing. Sometimes what is accepted at the time can be horrific in hindsight. You were so young you probably just thought that's how things were.
sad
Have you thought about counselling? It may help you to talk through this, you must be so angry and confused. Bastards.

blackeyedsusan Sun 23-Oct-11 22:57:07

fuck pippi, that is awful. of course it was assult.

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 22:58:04

And if it actually took Mumsnet and a recently developed feminist perspective to make you realise being groped repeatedly and made to perform sexual favours is a sexual assault then I'm glad you found this site.

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 22:58:40

Fuck me OP.
You really need to post what your grievances are, before getting shirty about somebody questioning you over them

DD's aren't that big, but that doesn't mean you weren't assaulted.

Did you really not realise that your shirt being ripped open and being groped by your boss, wasn't right at the the time?

StewieGriffinsMom Sun 23-Oct-11 22:58:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rollon2012 Sun 23-Oct-11 22:59:13

I cant understand your anger , especially infront of your parents :O

however, genuinely what do you think fbking them will achieve??

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 22:59:15

worraliberty did you really need it spelling out to you what the nature of such sexual assaults might be ?

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 22:59:55

I agree with ilike. I think it's a survival mechanism at the time - you feel confused and the attention seems 'positive' so you twist things in your mind to pretend it's ok/the fault was your body not their behaviour. sad

Yeah, I think I am very angry. The 'unzipping dress' thread was a massive trigger. The fb one came about accidently because he called Kelly Clarkson some offensive names on his profile and I asked him if he thought he was a decent role model for his daughters and reminded him of what he did to me.

Re the guy who had just got out of prison: I read my diary a couple of weeks ago and only then did it hit me that he was 'grooming' me. For example he hugged me and kissed me because I had "shagged Mark". I was 14 then.

EllaDee, that is exactly it.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:01:35

Why on earth does she 'need' to post her 'grievances'?!

Would it be so difficult - what with the words 'sexual assault' in the title - to assume she was referring to, I dunno, sexual assault.

You may not mean to, but asking her to go into detail makes you come across like a sick individual.

MULLYPEEP Sun 23-Oct-11 23:02:13

YANBU. Can see why you are able to reflect on these incidents now as an adult and see them for what they were. What a shit experience for you.

OP, I have the same feelings as you do when i am defending my DD (15).

I have fell out with neighbours as because she has looked like a woman at 13, they thought they could behave in a sexual manner towards her.

What i have felt most saddened about is when other women try to make it her fault because their DP/DH are 'looking' at her or trying to flirt, she is very attractive.

It isn't accectable and if any child is going through this at school, i hope that they have someone to defend them and show that it is wrong.

StewieGriffinsMom Sun 23-Oct-11 23:02:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LynetteScavo Sun 23-Oct-11 23:02:37

30DD is big for a 13 yo. hmm

I'm a 34DD as a grown woman with a largish frame. hmm

Those incidents sound horrible. Of course they weren't your fault!

Physically, in the long term, you are probably better off with a breast reduction to take the strain off your back, but it's awful that you feel you needed it because your head was fucked. sad

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:03:11

Cross-post - you don't need me to say this pippi, but though you feel that way when you rationalize, that it's ok or your body at fault, it is A Big Pile of Horseshit.

And frankly if FBing them seems good to you, go for it. They may respond like pricks but that is really not your problem.

AgentZigzag Sun 23-Oct-11 23:03:37

I'm not sure how asking about the details of a sparse OP constitutes a sick individual.

The OP decided to post, and what she was going to post.

It must have crossed her mind that someone might ask?

TheBestWitch Sun 23-Oct-11 23:03:39

What did your parents do/say about the incident in the restaurant? YANBU by the way.

AgentZigzag Sun 23-Oct-11 23:04:12

Sorry, that was to EllaDee.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:04:12

I think FFS, stop telling the victim of sexual assault how she should feel or behave about it.

If she wants to use Facebook as a tool for coming to terms with what's happened to her, then she can use effing facebook without any other fucker coming along telling her that's not the way to deal with it.

Victims of any assault, can deal with it, any way they want.

Why does that need spelling out? Really, why?

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:04:25

when I was 13, I was a nearly-AA cup

a 13 yo with a DD cup came in for some serious unwanted sexual attention

it shouldn't happen

what allows it to be happen is people like the ones on this thread who say things like "Those tits aren't even that big" and...

"didn't you realise what was happening" which is really twat speak for "why didn't you prevent it" and...

"why didn't you tell anyone" meaning "it wasn't really that bad if you didn't report it"

think on everybody...think about what you are saying here

How is 30DD at age 13 in size 8 (or poss 6) I can't obviously remember, not big? My sister is a 32A now. I am a 32FF now which is in proportion to my frame. Those of you who are friends with me on fb, can see a pic of said boobs (an inocuous one, obviously) and they are huge!

Bear in mind that this is a smallseaside town in the north in 1989, there aren't many places to be measured- I could easily have been bigger.

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:04:37

I think this is the wrong part of the board for this too.

Also, OP was very vague in her original post.. and for all anyone knew at that point, she could have been referring to someone verbally commenting on her bust, or some other non-contact incidents...

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:05:24

No she doesn't need to post them does she. But if you post on an open forum about them, you can expect that some people might ask what happened.

The confusing thing for me, is that somebody can only just realise they were assaulted many times which kind of implies some ambiguity. If they only just realise, then people will ask why and what happened.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:05:33

Why the fuck do you need to know every single detail of the assault?

She's not in a fucking witness box here, in a court system that's geared to ensuring that men aren't held accountable for their violence against women; she's on a support site for women.

Just in case that had escaped the attention of some of you.

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:07:11

worraliberty did you really need it spelling out to you what the nature of such sexual assaults might be?

Anyfucker I'm not the sort of sheep who simply posts a YABU without knowing basic details that determine whether or not the OP is infact being unreasonable.

I hope that answers your question.

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:07:24

Also, I grew up with boobs that grew much quicker than the rest of me, and were probably my most prominent feature throughout my high school years... I was a 34FF and got plenty of comments from boys and men. I hated it, but I was luckily never subjected to anything worse than that, but I can understand where OP is coming from.

I think though, you should hold back from attacking people on FB for things that happened a long time ago. I dont think it will help you and could make things a lot worse.

StewieGriffinsMom Sun 23-Oct-11 23:07:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

margerykemp Sun 23-Oct-11 23:07:35

Yanbu

But i hate to think of women having surgery in order to 'curb' men's behaviour.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:07:40

No, she specifically said sexual assault.

Not just verbal assaults.

What's to get confused about? What needs clarifying?

Re the resteraunt: They didn't believe me and told me to stop making a fuss type of thing. I mentioned it to my mum the other week when it first came back to me. She still tried to brush it off "no he didn't" etc. Itold her that she should have believed me and why didn't she etc and making a fuss is not a Bad Thing.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:07:54

Agent - ok, fair enough, I didn't really mean people asking questions. It was the people insisting they 'couldn't judge' unless they knew the details that I thought came across as nasty and voyeuristic. The implication was that they weren't prepared to accept pippi's judgment that what happened to her was sexual assault until they'd decided for themselves, which is IMO beyond the pale, and plays into the hands of those sick individuals who do probe for details because they are, well, sick.

I do see that asking questions as part of discussing and sharing is fine, didn't mean to imply it wasn't.

Sexual assualt isn't verbal squeaky, it is physical.

((hugs)) Pippi. I have no real advice to offer, just a lot of sympathy.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:08:35

the words "sexual assault" were used in the title

is that not enough for some of you ? confused

are you labouring under the impression that there are degrees of sexual assault ?

shame on you

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:09:20

No, 'didn't you realise what what happening' does not mean, why did you not prevent it? WTF

Please don't make wildly stupid and frankly assumptions about questions that are asked when somebody states they realise they've been assaulted and then other posters wonder what it is that happened.

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:09:44

She's not in a fucking witness box here, in a court system that's geared to ensuring that men aren't held accountable for their violence against women; she's on a support site for women.

This is not a support part of the board, this is AIBU which is infamous for being the least supportive part of MNet.

Rollon2012 Sun 23-Oct-11 23:10:08

If that facebook comment was an underhanded dig at me , firstly it will be reported.

secondly I was simply asking as something like that on fb could quickly turn ugly if as it seems it was posted publicly. and why would you have someone like that onj your fb? perhaps block them.

I have only realised them to be sexual assaults though since posting on MN (have been her nearly 6 years).

I think before that I just thought it was normal. That was what happened to women.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:11:39

pippi, not that I think the shape of your body is in any way relevant except to the pricks who treated you this way, but FWIW I agree that is unusual for a 13 year old. I was an A cup then, most of my classmates were A or B.

But you should not feel as if this has any relevance - it couldn't excuse their behaviour or condemn yours.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:12:27

I think before that I just thought it was normal. That was what happened to women.

Pippi, it appears many women do still labour under that impression

and try their very best to make sure other women never have the chance to refute it

StewieGriffinsMom Sun 23-Oct-11 23:12:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oh I will block him now if his response isn't satisfactory. I am one of those twats with a million friends on fb but I pull up every one of them if they post something that goes against my principles and am often deleted by them. Presumably the same will happen here.

TheBestWitch Sun 23-Oct-11 23:13:10

I think most teens would be aware that people touching your breasts without permission is wrong but a lot wouldn't have the confidence to deal with it.

It didn't really matter what the incidents where as she said they happened at 13, children shouldn't be sexually approached by adults, even if they are the same size as an adult themselves.

The OP used the term 'grooming' in her title, that should have been enough.

The OP isn't that old but there was still blaim put on sexual assualts towards children, then.

I can look back on my life (40's) and say that what i have experienced in my lifetime should never have happened, but was passed of as 'boys will be boys' (but usually carried out by men).

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:13:14

Ok if people want to split hairs

This is not an AIBU question is it?

How can anyone be unreasonable for just realising they've been sexually assaulted many times?

Naive - possibly

Unreasonable - Doesn't come into it surely?

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:13:26

Ella, really!

If the OP has only just realised that she was assaulted (which based on this, I have every reason to believe she was) after it happening repeatedly and in front of her parents even (information given later) - it's not unreasonable to wonder about what happened since I would have though that most (not all) incidences of sexual assault are fairly obvious when they happen

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:14:13

p.s. of course YANBU to be angry about being sexually assaulted. There isn't anyone in their right mind who would think you were

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:14:36

WL so this post is isn't in the best place it could be

and ?

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:15:06

I'm not sure that this being the least supportive part of mumsnet, actually extends to cross examining a sexual assault survivor, on the details of her sexual assaults.

"Please bear in mind that whilst this topic does canvass opinions, it is not a fight club."

We are talking about sexual assault here, not about whether someone is being unreasonable for not wanting her DC to play with the common boy up the road. hmm

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:17:39

ffs.... we have threads on here by people who would consider a man holding a door open for them as some sort of assault.... how is anyone supposed to give any sort of advice without knowing a least a little of the detail...

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:17:53

And there's no need for the OP to be so angry with anyone who answers her AIBU question since that's what she actually asked.

AnyFucker I do realise from reading many of your posts that as soon as someone mentions they're 'pro feminist' in some sort of way you will jump in and defend and agree with absolutely anything they type.

However, that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you.

This is definitely not the right section for the OP to post in...and as a rule I couldn't care less where anyone posts.

Worra. I do technically know that it isn't really an AIBU question but I wanted a cross section of the boards opinions and the traffic etc and maybe (really secretly) I wanted one of those twatty male posters to come on so he could be shot down in flames.

I think researching feminist literature and finding my own teenage diaries ahve been the turning point for this, but yes, I genuinely didn't know that an adult coming up to me and doing that hideous double handed grope thing was a sexual assault. Me and my friend pretty much carried on walking.

I was promiscuous and it seemed to fit in with that. Vomitous opinion, I now know.

Really chiclit -you think sexual assault is obvious, when it gets minimised all the time. Women having their bums pinched, breasts touched in nightclubs and told to "get a grip", stop overreacting. As Pippi said she thought that this was what happened to women.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:19:25

chicle - I think you are very wrong about the nature of sexual assault. It explains why you posted, but your assumptions are off. I'd even say, first rule with any kind of abuse is that the abused person will try to rationalize it.

People do not admit abuse easily. Especially if they are children, as pippi was. A 13 year old is just beginning to learn what is happening to her body and what appropriate adult interactions are.

It is absolutely normal not to realize that something was abusive. It is even normal to blank it out and only remember years later. You'd think it'd be so horrible you'd remember, or you'd react strongly - but it's not so, not for many people. You may freeze, or feel as if you can't see what to do - and a minute goes by, or an hour, or a day, and you think you're too late to say anything. It takes huge courage to look back as an adult and break that cycle, and speak up. Because the first question that you're afraid of hearing - the question you are asking yourself - is 'why didn't I do something?' and 'what did I do wrong?'

That is why I reacted so strongly to the questions earlier in this thread, which I really think are out of line.

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:19:26

Exactly squeaky.

There was a thread a few days ago where the OP was denigrated by her mate for submitting to PIV.

It isn't always obvious.

Ilikedrinkingblood Sun 23-Oct-11 23:20:56

This area has the most traffic and this woman needs to be heard. Seems a good place to post.

It doesn't matter how developed her figure, how big her bust, a 13 year old is a child and no child, or woman for that matter, should be treated this way. If someone groped me now I would speak out. As a child, I was too afraid of the potential repercussions to speak out about my BIL touching my breasts on numerous occasions. I wish I had but I didn't realise how serious it was at the time, although I hated it I thought that was more about me than it being so wrong. OP, I feel for you. Be angry. You were wronged. But only change your body if you want to, not because some pricks have no self-control or morals.

onefatcat Sun 23-Oct-11 23:21:05

No YANBU to class your experiences as sexual assault.
YABU to blame it in your breasts!

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:21:56

WL funnily enough I haven't noticed you at all

except when I see you being arsey for the sake of it

the title said "sexual assault"

the title

if you don't believe the OP, just come right out and say it

then we all know where we stand, yeah ?

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:23:05

".... we have threads on here by people who would consider a man holding a door open for them as some sort of assault...."

Really? I've never seen one. Can you link to it?

AuntiePickleBottom Sun 23-Oct-11 23:23:06

yanbu.

reading some of the threads here do make you think, what once was a Taboo subject....such as rape in marriage the law was only passed in 1991.... then people do realise they where or are a victim of crime. ( who would of thought in the 60's if they husband wanted sex and forced himself on his wife it was illegal.

also some people think DV is when a partner beat his partner day in day out...when emotinal/verbal abuse is just the same.

Yeah well, I changed it at 19. I passed all their tests though. I am pleased I did it. I still got a lot off attention after because they still weren't small. I was more in control then. Still didn't know it was assualt though. I have a lot to thank my current degree studies and MN for. This won't happen to my DD, thats for sure.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:23:43

chicle - come on, that is underhand, to refer to that thread where not one person agreed with the (fictional?) 'friend' who told the OP not to have PIV.

It is totally different from looking at a thread and thinking 'hmm, I could post a straight question 'what happened?, or I could make a dismissive remark about how I won't bother believing the OP unless she tells me something suitably extreme ... I know, I'll do the latter'.

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:24:04

No handdived I dont' think all sexual assault is obvious; I said that.
Having read what happened to the OP, I would say that, to me, that is fairly obvious.

That said, I've just looked at the OP. I picked up on the 19 (not the 13) which very obviously changes things. A child dealing with these types of assaults is very different to an adult.

That said, some of the responses to the questions are way out of line.

OP, don't deal with this on facebook; can you go back and report any of the perpetrators of this

hatesponge Sun 23-Oct-11 23:24:50

I can understand this, OP. I was a very well developed child - I was almost my current height (5 foot 6) and had a 34c (probably actually a D) bust at the age of 12 or 13. Most girls that age are only just getting their first bra, so you do stand out.

My experiences were nowhere near so bad as yours (and I'm very sorry for what you went through) but I used to get followed home a lot by boys several years older than me. Men used to try and flirt with me because they thought I was late teens/early 20s. At school I got used to being groped. That went on for years until I physically attacked the main culprit and battered him. It happened a lot less after that.

It does make me sad because I was an extremely confident child, this made me hugely shy and scared of men. I had a lot of negative attention which I never wanted - at 13 I still played with dolls, I was very immature and found it all very difficult to cope with. In fact I think it made me even more reluctant to grow up, iyswim. I never told my parents. And everyone at my school treated it as perfectly normal sad

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:25:50

Now that is a great idea chicle - can you report these guys?

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:25:57

Ella I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with PIV. I'm not passing any judgement. I'm simply saying that to some people it is an issue and without any other information, who can coherent response be given?
Nothing voyeuristic about that at all.

Good point onefatcat. That was what attracted them to me though, no? Why not my mate then? I know it wasn't my fault per se, but when there are two of you and only one gets groped is that to do with my physical appearance? I have genuinely never considered it this way before.

AgentZigzag Sun 23-Oct-11 23:26:44

Fucking hell AF.

Claws away?

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:27:06

Ella who did the latter of your two points in your 23:23 post?

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:27:36

Nobody said they didnt believe the OP though. They simply asked for more information before they posted their opinion. Fair enough really.

Because it does seem, as Worra says, that the hardcore feminists are always waiting in the wings, ready to pitch into a thread like this, and go into full man hating mode without needing to know any of the details.

I do actually wonder at times if there is a secret little meeting where a thread is created simply so that the feminists can come over to AIBU en masse to try and recruit to their cause.

And anyone who doesnt automatically subscribe to the feminist viewpoint is sworn at, shouted down, and basically told their input is shite.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:28:43

AZZ, have you a specific post of mine you are objecting to ?

have a look at worraliberty 's while you are at it

I think you will find that poster got personal

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:29:44

I am not a "hardcore" feminist

whatever one of those is

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:29:48

I'm not getting into a row with you AF so another thread turns into all about you and your opinions.

I didn't say I don't believe the OP

I just needed a bit more info before I acted like a sheep and posted YABU without a second thought.

This is my last post to you because the thread is about the OP

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:29:59

chicle - worra's post of 22:41 on the first page, and her follow-up. Clear as anything - she say she couldn't judge until she knew what happened.

I hope she was posting without thinking but it was a staggeringly crass thing to say.

squeaky - that's a big chip you've got there.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:30:23

Sorry can you point out the man-hating on this thread?

And you still haven't linked to the thread where someone thought holding a door open for her constituted an assault.

You are in danger of looking as if you just make things up Squeaky. Stereotyped anti-feminist things. I'm sure you don't want to look like that, it makes you look a little... unreasonable. At least you're in the right section for that though.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:33:02

WL what would OP have had to say after your request for "more information" to get your support ?

go into detail about the assaults ?

why would you need to know the detail ?

it isn't asking like a "sheep" to have your default position to be that you beoieve a woman who says she has been sexually assaulted as a 13yo

have any of you any reason to disbelieve her ?

that is the question here

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:33:15

So it's like this:

Woman says 'I've just realized I've been sexually assaulted'

Instead of simply accepting her premise that sexual assault did happen, and discussing her point about whether or not she should have realized, it's now considered ok to say outright that you're not sure whether to believe her without more evidence?

What if I posted 'I've just realized I've been grieving for my dead dad' - would you get back to say 'hmm, please do check his pulse before I make up my mind?'

It sounds about equally rude and insensitive IMO.

blackeyedsusan Sun 23-Oct-11 23:33:26

some people are taught to do wwhat they are told by an adult no questions asked. some people are not told this is not normal, and when your own mum refuses to take you seriously who do you turn to. can you imagine telling your head teacher about your last sexual encounter? think how a 13 yearr old would feel? everything was embaressing at 13. these things are very embarressing, even when the fault is not yours and you run the risk of purring yourself through that and not being believed. and no, you do not realise it is wrong at the time. people mess with your head and tell you it is ok, ior you are flattered by the attention, or starved of affection so look for it anywhere. i hope things have moved on a bit in the last 23 years.

pippi your mum let you down in a bad way. I hope you can get yourself some help with this.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:33:28

acting like a sheep

onefatcat Sun 23-Oct-11 23:34:04

What do you think it was OP that made you so vulnerable to abuse- having large breasts can't be the whole story, otherwise there would be similar tales from all women who were well developed teenagers. this must only be one factor that contributed to your situation, but can't really be the defining factor surely?

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:35:02

No Ella I wasn't posting without thinking

Nor did I want the gory details

But something other than 'AIBU to have just realised I've been sexually assaulted many times' would be clearly needed in order to answer the question in hand no?

I mean we could all trot on and post

YABU

YABU

YABU

YABU

But how would that actually help the OP in letting her know if we actually do think she's being unreasonable or not with no information? confused

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:35:21

if my 13 yo dd came to me to say "I have been sexually assaulted" and my default position was to disbelieve her without "more evidence" I would be very, very ashamed of myself

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:35:25

I am not going to link to it either, because I was using it as a generalisation, not a specific instance.

This is AIBU, where quite often people post very ambiguous threads, and quite often get told that they are blowing things out of proportion. The information given by OP in her first post was not clear and did not allow anyone to form an opinion on whether it was sexual assault or not.

The op could easily have gone on to say that someone twanged her bra strap in school. IN MY VIEW that would not be sexual assault. Obviously it wasnt anything as innocent as that, and yes, the OP was sexually assaulted, and nobody has denied that or in anyway said she is wrong.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:37:02

You are not going to link to it because it doesn't exist.

And where is the post on this thread that denotes man-hating?

You can't point that out either, because it doesn't exist.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:37:58

'The information given by OP in her first post was not clear and did not allow anyone to form an opinion on whether it was sexual assault or not.'

IT IS IN THE BLOODY TITLE.

BluddyMoFo Sun 23-Oct-11 23:38:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:38:54

She wasn't asking you if it was sexual assault.

So you didn't need to consider that angle.

AgentZigzag Sun 23-Oct-11 23:39:42

But you would ask your daughter 'What happened sweetheart?' woudln't you AF?

That wouldn't mean you didn't believe her or were being voyeristic.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:39:46

bluddy that is terrible. sad

But a big thank you to you and to pippi and anyone who speaks up about this sort of thing. You're amazing - you know that, right?

I'm not sure I can (or want to) answer that onefatcat. If I was walking down the street with a friend who was dressed similarly to me, and was considered prettier than me by our peers at the time but the man (possibly in his 20's/30's) whom I didn't know and had never seen before groped me, am I really expected to know why he chose me? That makes me feel a bit sick TBH, like I was to blame for having the audacity to walk the streets with my (well hidden) big tits or whatever else it was that singled me out from my friend. Maybe we shoudl ask her how she feels to have been overlooked? hmm

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:39:56

squeaky the default position was to make her prove it in some way

do you really not see that ?

do you not see what is wrong with that ?

denyint the experiences of that 13yo girl is disgusting

and before you say so....making her question them is denying them

that is why she didn't report them at the time

< looks heaven ward >

< asks, are some women really so blinkered they refuse to see what is beneath their eyes ? >

LeBOOOf Sun 23-Oct-11 23:40:05

I have seen people post in AIBU before when they were talking about something sensitive, and usually- thankfully- they are responded to with support and understanding rather than the more normal grilling, because posters can restrain themselves from acting like arseholes when appropriate.

Pippi, I'm sorry this has turned into a stupid fight. I really wish I could say to you that if you reported in Relationships or in Feminism that you would get the support you deserve, but unfortunately those boards are infested with trolls at the moment. It is open season on mumsnet to attack and ridicule anybody attempting to talk about sexual assault or rape, I'm afraid, which is pretty fucking disgusting on a forum used mainly by women.

I really hope you can take something useful from some of the posts though- that was a horrible experience for you to have to go through, and should never have happened.

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:40:59

ooh lets look...

a court system that's geared to ensuring that men aren't held accountable for their violence against women

feminist propaganda at its best I would say..

Feminine Sun 23-Oct-11 23:41:11

The original post (sorry pippi) did need more details.

It actually (sorry to say) looked almost light-hearted.

That might be my fault as I wouldn't expect to find (that topic) it in this section.

Anyway, I am sorry you had to suffer as you did...and quite frankly I would now do whatever it took to make myself feel better. smile

I hope you find calm...look after you

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:41:25

Ella there was no information in the title for people to answer the OP's question

Can you not understand that?

She is asking if she's being unreasonable to have just realised she's been sexually assaulted many times. Then the OP goes on to give no further details so how the hell can anyone without a crystal ball answer her question?

Really it's not rocket science

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:41:39

Yes the trolls and MRA's particularly target anything about sexual abuse or rape.

They really want to shut women up about it.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:41:57

Agent - IMO if someone had posted 'what happened sweetheart' that would have been fine, surely?

That's very different from someone stating that they cannot 'judge' until they know more, when the OP didn't ask anyone to verify that it was sexual assault, she told us right there in the title that it was.

Bluddy sad

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:42:19

Look, when somebody says they 'realised' they've been assaulted, it automatically puts the question into readers heads-'wonder what that was then' if the person didn't realise themselves. The OP states (indirectly) that she didn't think she'd been assaulted until recently when she realised she had after coming on here.
Of course people will wonder what happened and why?
Doesn't mean they don't believe her, don't think it's assault, or are voyeurstic.

OP, can I suggest you post elsewhere for supportive comments.

I really do wish you well and hope this works out for the best for you, but please don't play this out over FB; you'll regret it.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:43:50

Can you explain how that is man-hating, Squeaky?

Given that there's a 6% conviction rate for reported rape, most rape isn't reported and 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted in their lives, are you going to argue that the court system is set up to try and convict rapists?

How is it man-hating, to point out that our legal system has been designed to let men who use violence against women off the hook?

It's only man-hating if you believe that all men want to use violence against women and not be brought to book for it.

LeBOOOf Sun 23-Oct-11 23:44:12

Bluddy sad. That's just so fucking shit, but I'm not really surprised that you blamed yourself at the time. Girls and women are given so many messages that being raped is because of something they have done, and it never is. It is because they have encountered a rapist. Of course it wasn't your fault.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:44:18

so say "what happened sweetheart" instead of baldly saying "I need more details before I can judge"

and some say I am strident hmm

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:44:20

worra - yes there is. I understand the title fine - what are you struggling with?

She's asking if she's being unreasonable to have just realized that she was sexually assaulted. Not 'was I sexually assaulted' (which isn't an AIBU at all, FWIW), but is she at fault for only just realizing.

TBH I find it sad enough anyone has to post that question, let alone that people feel the need to shove it to one side.

I won't regret it, its been 16 years and I have the upper hand. It was a meassage not on his wall or anything. I was polite and just asked him how he would feel if it were one of his daughters. It won't end in a bun fight and I am better than him and he won't break me.

squeakyfreakytoy Sun 23-Oct-11 23:45:40

This thread is not about rape, and I think there are already enough threads to have that debate on. However any thread that gets a lot of feminist input invariably ends up going the same way, so is it any wonder that people think it may be some sort of pre-arranged set up.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:46:52

chicle - I do get why you think that, but it is a very odd thing to say if you've ever read anything at all in the papers or watched any TV about the suvivors of abuse.

What pippi describes is a normal process and I would have thought most of us would know about it as part of th comon sense stuff you accumulate as an adult. I must be wrong, but I find it hard to excuse the comments which are callous despite maybe being ignorant as well.

"a court system that's geared to ensuring that men aren't held accountable for their violence against women"

"feminist propaganda at its best I would say.."

If only it was.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/.../essex-police-fail-domestic-violence

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:47:16

Bluddy, so sorry about what happened to you. Don't be apologetic about not being "in the same category" as women who are raped in dark alleys at knifepoint (a minority of rape victims), rape is rape. What happened to you was dreadful.

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:47:17

Look, why are people confusing asking a 13 year old child "What happened sweetheart" after she's just been sexually assaulted by an adult...with asking a grown woman on a public internet forum for a bit more info in order to answer the question she's asking everyone? confused

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:47:35

pippi - good on you. smile

GreenEyesandNiceHam Sun 23-Oct-11 23:48:07

I read the Unzipping thread earlier- my very first instinct was that it was a sexual assault.

Yet thinking about more, I realised that when I was about 21, in a nightclub, stood near the bar, and a pissed up idiot yanked down the back of my strapless top so that my unfettered boobs popped out in full view, I put it down to being a (very) humiliating, belittling incident and tried to blank it out of my mind henceforth.

Doesn't compare to what the OP has been through, but I totally understand why it's a 'realisation' that comes with time, maturity, and yes, a little bit of 'feminist' learning

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:48:14

You are avoiding my question Squeaky.

How is that post evidence of man-hating? You need to explain your reasoning, not just assert mindlessly. Otherwise you look silly.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:48:29

set up ?

squeaky...take your head out your arse, seriously

the set up will be when we get the red carpet rolled out for the women-haters

I give it 10 minutes

some of you women throw rose petals in their path, it appears to me

BOOareHaunting Sun 23-Oct-11 23:50:05

anyfucker

"a 13 yo with a DD cup came in for some serious unwanted sexual attention

it shouldn't happen

what allows it to be happen is people like the ones on this thread who say things like "Those tits aren't even that big" and...

"didn't you realise what was happening" which is really twat speak for "why didn't you prevent it" and...

"why didn't you tell anyone" meaning "it wasn't really that bad if you didn't report it"

think on everybody...think about what you are saying here"

That with brass knobs on. <applauds AF>

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:50:13

WL Op didn't ask if she was sexually assaulted

she told us she was

your default position was not to believe her

spiderslegs Sun 23-Oct-11 23:50:18

Pphh - I don't want to do this.

I don't WANT TO DO IT.

My daughter is three, she is as beautiful as I am & already MEN are telling me how lovely she is.

I don't want grown men telling me how beautiful my three year old daughter is.

It makes me feel ill.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:50:26

Yes, wait for the influx of posters from anti-misandry.

And watch the unlovely spectacle of women on t'interweb bending over backwards to give men who hate them, the benefit of the doubt.

BluddyMoFo Sun 23-Oct-11 23:50:35

See (and this isnt going to be a popular view) but I still cant properly class the things I posted about as rape...well RAPE rape...if you get my way of thinking. I cant help but feel there IS a difference between RAPISTS and opportunist unwanted forceful fuckers almost. I know I'm not describing it right - I do get that sex against your will is rape...but I cant call what happened to me, I cant call it the same name as the terrifying situation of being dragged off the street and fighting for your life and brutally attacked by a psycho stranger. I can NOT class them under the same term.

I can assure you that i am not in 'on the set up', you won't see me post on the feminist boards.

Posters tend to click on threads that interest them, i do on all that mention SS, i suppose 'the feminists' do when the thread is about a victim doubting herself/what happened, it is natural to post on your specialist area.

They are allowed to post outside of the feminist board and don't have to change to do so.

BluddyMoFo Sun 23-Oct-11 23:51:17

My computer is running slow so sorry if my posts are a bit behind the general discussion.

chicletteeth Sun 23-Oct-11 23:51:42

Ella I have read plenty in the papers and watched TV re abuse. What's odd about asking for clarity on something the victim has only just found clarity on herself? Especially when the fact that it happend at all is disclosed by the OP herself?

onefatcat Sun 23-Oct-11 23:52:50

Thanks for answering Op. In a one off situation it is probably hard for anyone to define the reason for an assault (other than the obvious unreasonable behaviour and complete unpredictability of the the man involved). However, you say you were assaulted more than 20 times. That must be unusual.

worraliberty Sun 23-Oct-11 23:55:05

spiderslegs that's one of the saddest things I've ever heard a mother say about her own child sad

I hope she grows up to have a more open/level headed opinion about the opposite sex and doesn't see them all as a threat.

Wooooooooooooooppity Sun 23-Oct-11 23:55:09

Bluddy, you might want to start a separate thread for support.

But a woman who is dragged off the street and has a knife held to her throat, isn't just raped, she's threatened with murder and kidnapped too.

So there are at least 3 offences going on there.

Whereas rape is just one offence. And what happened to you was rape. You might find this book useful.

Also, Rape Crisis can help you talk through your experience. Even 20 years later, they help rape survivors.

LeBOOOf Sun 23-Oct-11 23:56:19

Bluddy, you have every right to name your experience how you choose, every right, but what you have described is rape by definition, and sounds bloody traumatic.

hatesponge Sun 23-Oct-11 23:56:23

I think if you've been lucky enough never to encounter the sort of man/boy who thinks a girl with large breasts/a defined figure is fair game to be groped/leered at/verbally abused and can't imagine that such a man actually exists, then yes, you probably WOULD need to ask for more detail from the OP.

If however you'd ever been in a similar situation, as I have, and many others I am sure, then you wouldn't. I had a pretty good idea what sort of thing would have happened to the OP from her opening post, because similar (albeit less serious) happened to me.

EllaDee Sun 23-Oct-11 23:56:45

I have explained what's odd, and if you can't see that it's disgusting to take a premise not up for discussion and state pompously that you cannot verify it until more details are known, then you need to learn a little humanity.

Night all.

Thinking of you pippi and bluddy.

LivingDead Sun 23-Oct-11 23:57:36

Wow this is a bit of an eye opener, a Woman posts that she was sexually assualted, yet didn't realise they were sexual assaults, and people question her and try to minimise her breast size?confused

I really don't get that first post saying her breast weren't that large??? First of all a double dd for a small framed 12/13 yo is large, also WTH does it freaking matter you loons.

Bluddy - how you feel about your rapes is up to you, really it is. And it is completely understandable.

The thing that all these men had in common is that they felt entitled to do this to you. Don't beat yourself up about it, please.

AnyPhantomFucker Sun 23-Oct-11 23:58:49

humanity is not much in evidence when women demand other women explain how they were sexually assaulted or they will suspend their belief

BluddyMoFo Mon 24-Oct-11 00:00:57

I've asked for my original post to be deleted...I have no idea why I posted it really, why it came tumbling out. That stuff happened years ago and I'm fine - I really am, like I say I dont know why that post came out really. Thanks though x

AuntiePickleBottom Mon 24-Oct-11 00:02:24

no wonder many people don't report sexual assult, when even a public fourm questions the OP

Onefatcat, its too difficult question to answer sad. Is it possible to differentiate the one on the street and the restaurant one to the other eighteen or so that I knew? Maybethey thought because I was promiscuous that Iwas 'up for it'? The whole 'promiscuous' thing or slag as I called it up until very recently was due to these kind of assaults. Ugh. This goes a bit deeper than I am prepared to go yet.

Bluddy, sorry to hear all that. I have similar stories but I let them do it. Sometimes for money (in a kind of indirect way) and sometimes because I didn't know you could actually say no sad

Ilikedrinkingblood Mon 24-Oct-11 00:04:09

Spiderslegs, you need to get a grip. Not every man is a threat and there is nothing sinister in saying a child is beautiful. While as women it would be preferable to be acknowledged for our other virtues from time to time, people are just complimenting you and your child.

AnyPhantomFucker Mon 24-Oct-11 00:04:45

Bluddy, it's ok

get it deleted if you wish

but it's your right to say what you feel, and to describe your experience any way you wish

if you feel the need to get it off your chest, give Rape Crisis a ring

they will talk it through with you

many people who call them say "I don't believe I was raped, but..."

or come over to the Relationships board for some old-fashioned support and empathy x

worraliberty Mon 24-Oct-11 00:05:23

It's not about being believed for goodness sake (this is like talking to a 3yr old) it's about getting behind the OP's perspective in order to answer the question Am I being unreasonable

No-one actually knows if the OP is being unreasonable to have suddenly realised at the age of 36 that she was sexually assaulted many times unless they can know if she was assaulted many times.

Still "My name is Worra...I'm a feminist. AIBU to think black is actually white"?

A feminist you say Worra?

YANBU

YANBU

YANBU

YANBU

So very helpful...thanks, glad I asked.

Ilikedrinkingblood Mon 24-Oct-11 00:07:08

Promiscuity is often due to low self-esteem/needing attention. The attention you were getting was awful but you didn't know that at the time. That doesn't make you a bad person, nor does it make what happened to you any more justifiable. It is not your fault that this happened. You were a child ffs. They took advantage and treated you very, very badly.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 00:08:22

no wonder many people don't report sexual assult, when even a public fourm questions the OP

I think that is a bit unfair to be honest. As I said previously, OP could have considered having her bra strap being pulled as a sexual assault. There was no detail in her op, which did imply that she herself hadnt realised she had been assaulted, and was questioning if it was or was not assault.

Surely with that sort of question, posters are not being insensitive to ask for more detail in order to form an opinion.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 00:08:36

But they can know she was assaulted many times worra.

Because she told them.

LeBOOOf Mon 24-Oct-11 00:08:43

Perhaps this has gone too far to be salvaged, but is there any chance we can stop the barneying and actually offer some support here? Or will that be too difficult?

blackeyedsusan Mon 24-Oct-11 00:09:08

it would not be unusual to make a jokey/lighthrearted or off hand mention of assault, because it is painful and there is the risk that you will be ridiculed/disbelieved/minimised. if so you have not invested a lot of yourself in the telling and can move on.

AgentZigzag Mon 24-Oct-11 00:09:18

I took worras comment to be pretty objective 'Well it's hard to say YABU or YANBU without knowing what the 'incidents' were to be fair.'

No lighthearted mention of any judgy pants or disbelief, so maybe a bit of emotion is being injected when posters are talking about it being judgmental.

I totally agree that even the 'smallest' abuse is significant and should never be brushed off, but I understood the purpose of the OP to be a discussion about how normalised this kind of behaviour still is.

How can you have a discussion about such an important subject though whilst ignoring what's taken place?

I wondered what kind of incidents the OP was talking about too, and not because I was looking for a perv fest.

MN is all about asking questions, someone was bound to ask at some point.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 00:10:05

<Drums fingers>

Still waiting for your explanation of why pointing out that the legal system is rigged in favour of rapists, is evidence of man-hating Squeaky.

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 00:12:09

I agree with ILDB- it sounds like you had very low self esteem which prevented you from resisting assault, and not recognising it as such, maybe you mistook unwanted attention as flattery and these men took advantage of that? Anyway, I don't blame you for getting this thread deleted, nobody has been much help, they are mostly arguing amongst themselves about their feminist ideals.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 00:12:34

Because I dont believe that our legal system is "rigged". I believe it is flawed, in many areas. But not "rigged" particularly against women.

Yes, AgentZigzag, Ithink that was what my original point was. I wanted to highlight how normalised this is without posting it on the 'unzipped' trigger thread.

Maybe far more issues have arisen from it. I am fine, it was a long time ago. Nothing terrible will happen from contacting one of the knobheads that did stuff to me apart from hopefully buck his ideas up when bringing to females into this world.

lovecat Mon 24-Oct-11 00:14:02

worra, your post of 23.55 is really, really low even by your standards.

Spider, I have the same issue with DD, she's 6 and men are constantly telling her she's beautiful, calling her princess, getting in her face and saying 'hello gorgeous' to her and then getting mildly arsey (with me as well as her!) when she won't reply and hides herself against my legs to avoid the unwanted attention.

Why the hell should we condition our children to accept male (or indeed female) attention focused entirely on their looks as being something good? Are we not just setting them up to be accomodating and compliant, not wanting to rock the boat by saying 'no, actually, you make me feel uncomfortable', which is the sort of behaviour that leads to posts like the OP where she felt that what she went through was normal and she wasn't able to complain?

Sorry, it's late and that wasn't phrased well. But how dare you, worra, try and imply that Spiders is somehow damaging her child? angry

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 00:15:11

And er, the man-hating claim?

How do you come to the conclusion that the quote you chose, demonstrates man-hating?

worraliberty Mon 24-Oct-11 00:16:01

Thank you ZigZag it's refreshing to know some people on this thread can actually read and understand without getting all hysterical smile

I might start a thread on the feminist board saying "I've just realised after 10 years of marriage that my Husband is actually a man! shock

Then settle back and count the cries of "Leave the bastard" grin

OP, sorry your thread went this way. I wish you luck in the future and hope you can get through all this smile

<bowing out because as usual it's become all about certain people's agendas>

LeBOOOf Mon 24-Oct-11 00:16:18

Onefatcat, I think you need to look again at who is trying to offer support here. But I don't want to get into an argument- it's pretty crass on a thread like this. Night all- Pippi, I hope you are able to talk this through eventually, even if this isn't the thread, and that it helps.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 00:17:26

god almighty.. since when has it been a crime to tell someone that their child is beautiful, or to tell the child themselves....

hmm

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 00:18:47

Why don't you try it worraliberty.

See if anyone wants to play

hmm

worraliberty Mon 24-Oct-11 00:19:43

Low for christ sake lovecat because a MAN has had the audacity to compliment the woman's 3yr old daughter???

I'm sorry but that's fucked up....really fucked up.

Seriously would you feel better if men were to be seen and not heard to pass a normal innocent compliment about how lovely a little child is?

I'm definitely leaving this thread now

AnyPhantomFucker Mon 24-Oct-11 00:19:51

WL your own "agenda" is far more potentially-concerning than anyone else's here

I realise that AIBU inevitably ends in a fall out but why this thread FFS? Isn't this one time when we can all be 'in this together' <sings High School Musical>.

I'm going to bed now. Thanks for all your contributions.

lovecat Mon 24-Oct-11 00:21:13

hmm back atcha squeaky

If it makes my DD uncomfortable, then she shouldn't have to put up with it, nor should she be expected to just to make someone else feel better about themselves. I might tell another mother that their child is beautiful, I would not get in the child's face and tell them directly that they were beautiful.

Now fuck off.

AgentZigzag Mon 24-Oct-11 00:21:29

Are you saying nobody should compliment a beautiful child because it'd lead to the child putting too much store by their looks lovecat?

If you are, I would take that opinion as being a crock of shite.

If the DC's gorgeous (and they mostly are) then I'm not hanging back on saying it to the mum for fear of damaging the child grin

Do you also see cooing at babies in prams as a breach of their human rights?

spiderslegs Mon 24-Oct-11 00:21:56

Worra - no, no, sorry, I think you may have misconstued.

I fear for her, I was & am a very attractive woman, my daughter is three & very, very beautiful, ridiculously beautiful, men look at me, then her & make the most ridiculous comments.

wherearemysocks Mon 24-Oct-11 00:23:56

Its pretty awful that this has become so side tracked by squables between a few posters, and as hatesponge said there are far too many of us who really knew what she was talking about, having been there ourselves, just from the first post.

Pipi I'm sorry that you had this to deal with, and to such an extreme, it really is shit and so hard to deal with as a child and its good that you seem to be getting an understanding of it now. Its probably only once I got to my 30's that I really felt strong/confident enough to really make a stand if someone did that to me, although for me its only ever been in a bar or nightclub not just walking down the street or at work. At least physically anyway, the verbal comments that some people just think its okay to bandy around are still shocking. I've had someone blatently stare at my breast and make a lewd comment whilst I was serving them behind a bar with his wife standing next to him and she just laughed!

I understand too about how you can block these things out, I had quite a serious assault happen to me, where my flatmates partner came into my room during the night and I woke up to find him trying to kiss me and with his hand in my knickers. I just pushed him away and kicked him out, and luckily he did leave but I blocked that out for years, and it was only when I heard that he had died that I remembered it.

I've never told anyone about it, I'm still good friends with his xp and close to his son so obviously I wouldn't want to upset them and there would be no point really as he is not here anymore so its not like he could be held accountable.

Its terrible that your own mother has let you down so much though when you have been looking for support from her. Maybe she is just in denial as she doesn't know how to deal with it herself? I hope so.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 00:24:59

I fear for her, I was & am a very attractive woman

grin beauty is in the eye of the beholder and vanity is not an attractive trait

Mumcentreplus Mon 24-Oct-11 00:26:56

a complement should be accepted gracefully...but a complement is just that..the acknowledgement of something special.. physical or otherwise and to make a child or woman feel she cannot accept one without contempt or suspicion is damaging

Thanks socks, yes it is becuase she has no idea what to do/say/or that this actually happens. Shewas a virgin on her wedding night (to my dad) and is very shy, non confrontational and essentially a typical housewife with limited experience of thw world. She didn't meean to be shite grin. It won;t be happening to my fucking DD though.

spiderslegs Mon 24-Oct-11 00:27:57

Squeaky cleary now I am now ravaged & buggered.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 00:28:17

Why would any child feel uncomfortable with being told she is beautiful, unless she has been taught that way ... sorry but I find that quite sad and a shame that a child is not able to accept a compliment in a natural way.

Being buggered is a whole different thread, spiders.

Sorry spiders, my wink didn't work.

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 00:31:33

I really don't believe any 3 or 6 year old gets that many comments from MEN about her beauty any more than she gets from WOMEN. All beautiful children attract comment, we appreciate asthetics amongst our species- may beautiful children grow to be quite plain...and vice versa...

spiderslegs Mon 24-Oct-11 00:33:00

Squeky - how you feel?

spiderslegs Mon 24-Oct-11 00:33:37

Grrrrr

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 00:33:55

Sorry- meant to say MANY not MAY- I was not wishing plainness on any child (despite thier mother seeming to wish for it...)

Feminine Mon 24-Oct-11 00:34:33

Spider...confused

I might be judged as beautiful too ...by some (if I am their taste I guess?)

You have a really funny concern IMO.

I am always grateful for compliments , for me or any of my 3 children!

But...you are very pretty <<ducks>>

spiderslegs Mon 24-Oct-11 00:35:38

Fine.

Fine.

As you will.

AgentZigzag Mon 24-Oct-11 00:36:12

The way you're talking about it lovecat, saying your DD is uncomfortable and that the other person is getting some kind of gratification from the situation, makes such an innocent interaction seem so sinister.

The person isn't getting 'in the childs face', they're going down to their level so not towering over them.

My DD2 hides behind my legs when I chat to people, but it's because it's a safe place until she's sure of the situation, not because she's uncomfortable because of the power games going on when my neighbour tells her how lovely her hair is (and it is lovely).

ComradeJing Mon 24-Oct-11 00:37:48

Pippi sad

I am/was a similar size to you and found men, even now, happy to comment on my breasts in a way that is quite upsetting and insulting.

I don't know what support I can offer but my thoughts are with you.

Some of the other posters really need to be ashamed of themselves here.

AgentZigzag Mon 24-Oct-11 00:39:06

I've never looked at your piccys spiders, and I concur with Feminine, you and Mr Spides make a hansome couple to be sure grin

I also harvest compliments aimed at my DDs for my old age.

Mumcentreplus Mon 24-Oct-11 00:39:48

I agree fatcat lovin the name...people love 'cute,pretty,handsome,funny,smart'...it's in our nature...to encourage a child to feel this is a hindrance does not help

Mumcentreplus Mon 24-Oct-11 00:42:17

when men are happy to comment on your breasts... you should be happy to shame them...

it is utterly bizarre that a few people have used this thread as a place to have a go at women, feminists, mothers etc. is 'support' difficult for some people?

i'm thinking some of the more recent comments come from people who have never experienced unwanted attention.

differentnameforthis Mon 24-Oct-11 01:59:44

Wow... a woman comes on, posts that she has just realised that many incidents in her past were sexual assaults & she gets

30DD isn't that big
Well it's hard to say YABU or YANBU without knowing what the 'incidents' were
You really need to post what your grievances are, before getting shirty about somebody questioning you over them

I don't often get mad over what I read here, but that is fucking outrageous! Does it matter what is was? The op is coming to terms with previous sexual assaults & posters have to criticize her interpretation of big breasts & make her share what happened to her! What a fucking joke.

differentnameforthis Mon 24-Oct-11 02:18:08

chicletteeth

If you read the ops posts, she says that when she told her parents in the restaurant, they dismissed it. They didn't believe her, and more recently they told her that he didn't do it! How is a child (as she was at the time) supposed to recognise what is right & what is wrong when the adults around her dismiss her & don't believe her?

They told her she wasn't sexually assaulted, HER OWN PARENTS said it didn't happen! After that, perhaps the op subconsciously labelled it as something else. Because let's face it, if your own parents deny it happened, that might just cloud your judgement a little & make you think it was normal!

Re the resteraunt: They didn't believe me and told me to stop making a fuss type of thing. I mentioned it to my mum the other week when it first came back to me. She still tried to brush it off "no he didn't" etc

windsorTides Mon 24-Oct-11 02:26:26

The same posters turn up on these threads all the time and try to doubt the OP, making several nasty remarks about feminism while they do so.

OP it's good that you have put the blame for what happened to you, where it is merited. That's such an important first step and the ones that follow will not be as difficult.

You might find it helpful to talk this over with a therapist who is trained in helping survivors of sexual trauma.

I am very sorry about what happened to you and commend your bravery for reaching the conclusions you have and for seeking help.

AgentZigzag Mon 24-Oct-11 02:30:49

Don't be daft differentname, nobody made the OP do anything.

She was free to post/not post whatever she wanted to.

MsWeatherwax Mon 24-Oct-11 05:57:25

onefatcat the cause of abuse is an abuser, not something wrong in the victim.

OP, you're not alone and I think this is more common than people realise. For those of you being disbelieving and judgy about the OP, think on a bit. If you have daughters and have brought them up to be polite and look to others for clues, and only complain when things are serious. And if you'd like this to happen to them.

This happened to me as a teen, only once as far as I remember. At school, and my 'friend' was sat next to me watching thinking it was hysterical/brilliant that boys liked me and wanted to grab my breasts. Of course I didn't tell anyone. I had been bullied in various ways my entire school life and no person in authority had given a crap because they saw it as toughening you up (many of the teachers at our school were also bullies). The boy who did it bullied me when we were at playgroup, while my mum was giving him and his mum a lift. All his mum said was 'oh don't hit msweatherwax that's mean' weakly and ignored him. Bullies and abusers are responsible because no-one stops them and tells them they are wrong.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Mon 24-Oct-11 06:37:09

OP... I was with you until this bit of your post: ... but I wanted a cross section of the boards opinions and the traffic etc and maybe (really secretly) I wanted one of those twatty male posters to come on so he could be shot down in flames.

You are not a child anymore, there are better ways of dealing with your anger than posting your hurt to the men who hurt you on bloody facebook.

Why do you want male posters to come on this thread to be shot down in flames? That's really quite ridiculous. Level your anger where it's deserved, not by starting an inflammatory thread.

I know a lot of women who had breast reduction surgery at a young age. I was 15 myself. It was quite traumatic really and I wasn't old enough to cope with it. I used to get grabbed very often, even when I was out with my mum, in broad daylight. It didn't really stop after the surgery either. I wish I'd had counselling to deal with it before the surgery. Maybe counselling would be an option for you?

This isn't the right board for this thread but there seem to be quite a few posters who decide to use it for the 'traffic'. Well, why? Surely 'support traffic' is more readily available on other boards than AIBU?

AF... I get where Worra was coming from. There are a lot of posters who bandwagon-jump and I don't see that she was being insensitive or nosey.

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 06:41:28

OP, how old are you? I had a few quite serious incidents happen to me up to the age of 19 (no I don't need to explain them) and only much later (30s) was I secure and confident in myself to realise that these boys/men were WRONG.

It's a hard realisation.

Shocked you have been treated harshly on this thread. Some people just like to think of themselves as the robustly debating voice of reason and can't do simple kindness (I say this a lot on MN recently)

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Mon 24-Oct-11 06:41:41

Also agree with Elladee's post about it being uncomfortable to put a 'label' to these events. I certainly found it easier when I was young to put it down to 'boys/men being stupid' than to think of it as assault. I suspect there are a lot of women that do the same... it makes it easier to come to terms with if it's 'downplayed' somehow. sad

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 06:42:01

I just realized you said you are 36, sorry

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 06:43:25

I must add, to the people who said 'that's not that big'..

Is there no level you won't stoop to to have a good argument on here?

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 06:45:42

Also, IMO, posting to the man on facebook is fine, it's a "safe" way to make him account for his actions and get some closure.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 06:52:50

It all starts with the first ping of a bra strap, doesn't it? Even that is some sort of invasion of a very embarrassing part of growing up. I was called 'tits ten' when I was ten because I had to wear a bra. Fortunately early doesn't mean massive. But I think schools need to be very very hard on sexual/body bullying from a very young age. No excuses. If schools stood firm against bullies the girls would think that it's not nothing.

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 07:34:05

Had a friend who had a breast reduction, made a huge difference to the amount of unwanted attention she had, but I don't think her experience was anything like as bad as yours OP (which is why I think it was reasonable for others to ask you) so I hope things got better afterwards.

Did people's reaction to you change that btw?

I'm not sure chasing people on FB is a good idea, some of them won't take it lying down.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 08:49:02

Yes the ping of the bra strap where we're told it's no big deal and we just have to grin and bear it. I'd like to know why girls in their formative years, when they are just coming to terms with the changes in their own bodies, should have to grin and bear this sort of harassment. If girls were going around wedgie-ing boys on a regular basis and cupping their hands in their crotch areas mockingly, I don't think the boys would be told to ignore it, I think the girls doing that would get detention and a lecture about not invading other people's personal space and boundaries and an appalled challenge about why they feel the need to try and humiliate and belittle another child in their class like that and haven't they learned about personal boundaries.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 08:53:01

Incidentally I don't think that the connection between the boy who created my nickname and his father who had an extensive illegal porn collection is negligible. This boy had watched porn long before he was a teen. I remember going to a party at his house and being unable to go to the toilet, at 11, because they were all looking under the door. (an inch or two gap)

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 24-Oct-11 08:55:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 08:57:26

Pippi,

I'm really sorry all of that happened to you and also at the bloody stupid and ignorant responses you've had from some on this thread.

Just want to offer a message of support.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 09:03:06

And yes, the 'not that big' comment is fucking ridiculous. FFS angry.

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 09:03:57

onefatcat is not renowned for their sensitivity

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 24-Oct-11 09:05:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Morning all. Thanks for your comments. The bra strap pinging started in 3rd year juniors when I started wearing a bra.

I have just thought of another one: Me running in sports day aged 14/15 wearing a bra, cropped top, t shirt and sweatshirt to minimise visible movement. The boys lining alongside the perimeter of the track singing 'oops up'. That's lovely and confidence building isn't it.

I left school after 5th year and am currently at uni planning my future career as a teacher. If i can help just one girl not to go through that shit at school, I'll be happy. I want to teach English but also Citizenship/PHSE for these very reasons.

hatesponge Mon 24-Oct-11 09:14:58

Posies, you've reminded me. At my secondary school I hated using the toilets - they had clear glass windows about 7ft off the ground - immediately outside was a lower flat roof and boys would constantly climb up onto it to look through the windows at us angry I assumed at the time this was normal but it really isn't is it?

ellisbell Mon 24-Oct-11 09:23:59

PippiLongBottom there are a number of teenage boys who post on this site pretending to be women. I haven't read this thread so don't know if some of the offensive posters here are teenage boys, just thought I'd point out it's possible.

Most women undergo some sort of sexual assault, that doesn't make it any more acceptable. Girls should be taught to shout NO and perhaps YOU PERVERT or YOU CREEP from a young age. My brother showed me how to knee someone in the balls.......

AyeDunnoReally Mon 24-Oct-11 09:27:50

Girls should be issued with tasers on their 10th birthday. Or perhaps, boys could be taught to not sexually assault and verbally mock and abuse girls and women.

Sorry that they did those things to you, Pippi. Hope you find some peace soon.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Mon 24-Oct-11 09:27:51

Pippi, I'm sorry for what happened to you.

I'm also sorry that some people are so determined to have you post your experiences. It is not their place to ask. When you talk about it, and why, is completely up to you.

It is also no one's place to validate how you feel about what happened to you, nor why you've just realised that what happened was sexual assault.

YANBU. For anything.

What I say here goes for everyone. It is no one's place to ask a sexual assault survivor "what happened". It is no one's place to ask a sexual assault survivor why they've only just realised what happened to them. And it is certainly no one's place to tell a sexual assault survivor how they should feel, react or act with regards to the sexual assault. A survivor may feel able to talk about the assault one day, and the next, will decide that they never want to talk about it again.

It may take some people a nanosecond to realise they've been sexually assaulted. It may take others a lifetime. It is no ones place to ask why.

{support and solidarity to those who've shared their stories}

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 09:28:19

I only managed to get to page 5 before needing to post this sorry...

OP YANBU. I was date-raped when I was a teenager. I realised what had happened a few weeks later. I confided in my two best friends. What a mistake. They held a cross-examination in one of their bathrooms and decided that I wasn't to be believed because I didn't behave in the "right" way when it happened i.e no screaming/fighting him off. Lots of things happened in my peer group then that amounted to bullying, because they didn't believe me. I doubted myself for years. Now I can say that it DID happen and it wasn't MY fault. I hope that my two former friends, armed with the knowledge that we have of date rape now, are ashamed of how they treated me. They let me down massively and I have found that that makes me more angry than what was done to my body.

I hope that you find some closure to this.

I'm sorry to hear that Bupcakes, that is indeed truly shit. sad

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 09:34:22

I feel a mumsnet campaign coming on.

We need to be teaching our boys and girls that things are a 'big deal' that we have rights to our own bodies and for them NOT to be discussed/teased/assaulted by anyone else.

I would like to see PSA curriculum deal with this.

When I first met my FIL we went to a bar, he nudged my, now, DH and said "you don't get many of those to the pound" I was stunned on so many levels that's wrong. With parents like that no wonder boys grow up with a sense of entitlement that if the woman has the audacity to have large breasts (I do not) then she's fair game for comments. Page three and all that crap gives us the idea that breasts are public property.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 09:36:02

Pippi. I hope you make it as a teacher, I hope you climb to the top and make a new curriculum! Don't stop at one girl, you could reach them all!!!

StopRainingPlease Mon 24-Oct-11 09:37:26

I'm not sure why there's all the comment about whether OP's breasts are big or not - irrelevant except probably in the frequency of assault she has endured, and her own view of her body.

I had my breast grabbed by a stranger in the street when I was an A-cup - it's still assault.

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 09:43:00

Page three, shit rags like Zoo and Nuts and FHM... all work towards the illusion that young women enjoy being leered at. It's disheartening that in 2011 that there are still men dim enough to buy this shite.

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 24-Oct-11 09:53:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 09:57:15

Bupcakes, judging by what I saw in Bristol city centre (huge group of girls dressed as sexy nurses with arses hanging out of shorts and short skirts, tiny tops, bras on show) many girls feel they have to live up to this, and are tricked into thinking this is their value so suck it up. By the time I was fifteen when a bloke (about thirty) said I had nice 'tits' to a mutual friend I thought it was a complimentsad.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 10:01:54

Bupcakes, it's even more disheartening that there are women who are prepared to buy this shit.

You can see why they do though. Right from our first experience of having our bodily integrity breached, we are told that we don't have the right to feel outraged about it. Someone pings our bra strap, or puts their hand up our skirt, if we complain we're told that's just what silly boys do and we're over-reacting. And when they yell at us in the street, make fucking gestures with their fingers, waggle their tongues at us, pat us on the bum as they walk past, grope our breast as they pass us, rub up against us on the tube - each of these encroachments into our bodily integrity and privacy, is treated as a minor nuisance infringement and any response stronger than mild boredom is deemed to be an over-reaction. Our outrage, which is a reasonable and proper response, is deemed OTT and militant.

And yet, if this stuff happened to men in the street, in their schools, in clubs, in all the mixed spaces that they went, nobody would ever tell them that their outrage was misplaced. Because nobody ever feels the need to question their bodily integrity, unless they are gay and therefore don't fit into the patriarchal model of what a man should be. Only women and homosexuals are deemed to be so unworthy of physical dignity.

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 10:03:42

Posies, we are conditioned to think that degrading sexual remarks such as the one aimed at you are compliments. We are supposed to feel lucky that a man would have sex with us, usually based on the flimsiest of criteria (boobs/face) I also HATE the "sexy" hen night trend. Don't kid me that women enjoy dressing in cheapo bits of polyester and glitter and getting letched at by sub-standard men. I'm sure that some will come on here to tell me that I Am Wrong but if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 10:09:05
onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 10:12:19

We KNOW men SHOULD NOT assault women,
We KNOW we SHOULD be able to wear what we like and NOT be assaulted,
We KNOW we SHOULD be safe to walk where we like and NOT be assaulted,
We KNOW we SHOULD be able to talk to ANY man and not be assaulted,
We KNOW it is NOT the victims fault if a man assaults her.

HOWEVER there ARE men who think it is OK to assault a woman.

I was asking WHY these men chose this particular woman as their victim and NOT others. She has been assaulted more than 20 times, while some women have never been assaulted.

I know if I am raped going down a dark alley at night on my own that it will be the rapists fault- it doesn't mean I am going to go down that dark alley though!

If you have a very attractive and well developed teenage daughter like the OP was, are you going to tell her to dress as she likes and and go wherever she likes and talk to whoever she likes, and behave as she likes, or are you going to teach her that there are some men/boys who may try to take advantage of her and give her strategies which may help to avoid those situations?

Obviously the OP was very young and naive at the time and I know the assaults were not her fault, but maybe there are some lessons to be learned here.

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 10:14:04

i couldn't get past the 2nd page of this thread, i was sickened by the questioning directed towards the OP re; the size of her breasts and did she not know it was wrong at the time shock

and we wonder why so many assaults go unreported, mine own included

shame on you

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 10:15:23

onefat

yeah, that's right...take all the women off the streets so there is no-one left to rape?

fuck off

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 10:17:30

onefatcunt Are you serious? I can't even bother to engage and tell you why you're a whole heap of wrong.

Stop.

Do you really think large breasts invite groping?
Do you think any women invites this?

This sort of victim blaming is why this shit happens so effortlessly for most men/boys that do this sort of thing.

I don't know any women that hasn't been flashed at, strap pinged, gawped at, whilstled at, raped, sexually assaulted. Most of us have at some time or another been a victim of something.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 10:17:59

Sorry onefat*cat*. blush

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 10:20:58

i think you were right 1st time Posies although being in support of reclaiming the word cunt i find it a bit of a back-handed slap wink

NinkyNonker Mon 24-Oct-11 10:21:37

This thread is just as disillusioning as the rape threads, how sad.

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 10:22:05

Oh I suppose it was my fault I was raped when wearing a zip-up hoodie, shorts and thick black tights because I was in the wrong place. hmm

You're an idiot. Rape doesn't always subscribe to your idiotic preconcieved ideas of what happens in one i.e woman tottering down dark alley in heels/tight dress. Plenty of women are getting raped every day in their own homes by their own partners when they are wearing nothing more "provocative" than a jumper and jeans. Rape isn't about sexual attraction, it's about control.

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 10:22:18

i was super shy at school when the incidents happened to me. And the guys had never seen me in anything other than school uniform. So that blows onefatcats ignorant theory out of the water.

Forgive me for this but I'm angry (I am physically shaking) and this might come out as a rant with spelling mistakes.

I was sexually abused as a child for over 2.5 years, I was raped by coercion as an adult (abusive relationship) for 6 years, I was made to watch my mother get smacked around by my father, I have been sexually assaulted, my FIL has taken photos of my cleavage without my permission. the lsit is too long.

Was it something I did, did I dress inappropriatly, did I give them the LOOK, did I do something in a pass life that warrants any of this?

NO I FUCKING DIDN'T, but according to ONEFATCAT there must have been something about me.

No wonder I use to keep most of this to myself, dealing with my past has taken a lot of emotional and physical strength, getting to the point of 'It was not my fault' was a battle. I had to answer everyone of those questions and many more. I am so glad I kept it a secret, only confiding in the trusted few, as some of the reponses on here, if i had heard them in RL, would have left me a wreck.

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 10:29:04

I also got flashed at when I was fifteen, on a bus. When the police came to interview me, the first thing they asked me was "What were you wearing?" A female police officer, too. She looked embarrassed to be asking it tbf.

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 10:29:14

<<hugs>> I'm sure very few people think like onefatcat.

Not even sure if onefatcat actually thinks like that or just wants a reaction tbh.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 10:30:02

Slightlymad, you have support here.

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 10:31:51

I have just thought of another one: Me running in sports day aged 14/15 wearing a bra, cropped top, t shirt and sweatshirt to minimise visible movement. The boys lining alongside the perimeter of the track singing 'oops up'. That's lovely and confidence building isn't it

And swimming etc...I think those are the sort of things schools should look at more closely as its very tough on all the girls - gawky, big, late developers etc.

AnyPhantomFucker Mon 24-Oct-11 10:32:14

slightlymad I hope you are ok

I understand how you feel and I believe you. I am very sorry you had to endure that. x

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 10:33:27

I was a super shy, super dorky, wouldn't say boo to a goose teen and was still assaulted in many small ways on a regular basis (bra strap twanged, arse pinched, inappropriate comments on body etc).

I remember once when I was about 11 I dropped something and bent over to pick it up. Some old wanker came up and slapped me on the arse. I was so shocked and upset it must have showed on by face, he walked off laughing.

SlightlyMad angry on your behalf and sad for you that you went through that (please don't take that as patronising, its absolutely not meant to be).

I'm okay, its taken nearly 30 years to be able to say that, I am just VVVV angry not just at onefatcat posts but at a lot that has been said on this thread.

hatesponge Mon 24-Oct-11 10:35:21

fanjo like you, the stuff that happened to me was at school (or on the way to/from school). I was 12/13, I didn't wear revealing clothes, I didn't wear make up, I had my hair in plaits. I dressed like the little girl I was.

to further confirm how much bullshit onefatcat's theory is: in my early 20s, I used to go out to clubs in the skimpiest of dresses, very short, very low cut/backless, I was a 34e by then. And whilst I may have got the occasional comment, it was a fraction of what I got on a regular basis at school.

It is nothing to do with what you wear.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 10:35:57

FFS @ Bupcakes.

Not at you, I mean at what happened..and 'what were you wearing'. WTF does that have to do with it

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 10:38:03

I know, flippin. My mum did this shock and then started spluttering with rage. This was sixteen years ago. You'd hope things had progressed but no.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 10:38:22

It makes me mad too slightlymad. Don't blame you.

hatesponge Mon 24-Oct-11 10:39:12

flippinada at my school you learned never to bend over, if you did you'd get your bottom slapped/pinched, or if you had a loose/long skirt on, a boy would fling it over your head so everyone saw your underwear.

I haven't thought about this stuff for years. My school was like a bloody zoo.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 10:42:21

I don't know how old you are Bupcakes, but I'm in my mid 30s, same as the OP and I think, if anything it's got worse.

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 10:43:21

and the assaults didn't just happen to girls with big breasts sad

Missingfriendsandsad Mon 24-Oct-11 10:44:26

Sorry to hear about these thoughts, I hope you are not blaming yourself for not realising and that you won't get depressed about it.

It has made me think of a christian and feminist woman at work who claims to be all about fairness for women, but who also went on a 20 minute rant about one of her student's breasts being 'too obvious' as if she could control their size..hmm so it just shows how entrenched and instinctive feeling some of these ideas are.

Hatesponge you have jsut reminded me of 2 teachers at my school, the science teacher would 'drop' his penci when walking past a girl who was leaning over a table (very large tables that you needed to stretch across to get to the equipment which was place in the middle by him) so he could look up her skirt.

The male PE teacher would 'help' support girls whilst they where doing hand stands and would also walk into the changing rooms when the girls where getting showered.

This was known by all staff and pupils but nothing was ever done. The girls learnt to never bend over tables or do handstands and the staff just turned a blind eye.

In fact one of my teachers (not one of the mentioned) was found guilty of having sex with a pupil.

Now thats a zoo!

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 10:47:30

I also HATE the "sexy" hen night trend. Don't kid me that women enjoy dressing in cheapo bits of polyester and glitter and getting letched at by sub-standard men. I'm sure that some will come on here to tell me that I Am Wrong but if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it.

FFs.. that ^ is exactly the point I was trying to make last night about the feminist and their belief that because they think something, then any woman who disagrees with them isnt capable of even knowing their own mind.

Guess what.. plenty of women do actually enjoy having fun, dressing up in risque clothes, and having a banter with blokes. It does not mean that they are giving the blokes permission to touch them. Some women enjoy flirting, and dont mind getting looked at by men. We dont need to look any deeper.

You say "I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong", because yes, you are wrong, and by your very statement, you are the one being insulting to other women by suggesting they are incapable of knowing what to think.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 10:47:46

Sorry, just worked out from your post how old you must be*Bupcakes*. D'oh!

Hatesponge I had similar. I was horrible. I remember getting sexual insults etc from about age 11/12. This was considered entirely normal. I was once out with my mum and Step-Dad and some boys followed me making cude sexual comments etc. I answered back in kind (Fuck off pencil dick kind of thing).

Step Dad heard some of it and was really shocked. When I explained why I was doing it he was furious (with the boys) and said good for you.

This has also reminded me of an incident I had on a bus a coupel of months back (in fact I posted about it on MN). Some teenage boys on a bus were being foul, one of them grabbed my hair and I went nuclear on him (verbally)- the little shit got the fright of his life.

Mwahahahahahahahouseface Mon 24-Oct-11 10:47:53

What a horrid thing to happen to you Pippi

Some of the comments on this thread are vile and there is absolutely no need whatsoever for them.

I have a large bust, started to develop at 11yrs. Senior school was awful, as was having to do PE with size 32E breasts.

I'm now 36G and hate my breasts. I often find men talking to them and not me. Idiots.

Pippi - I really hope that you can find a way to heal. Your story is so sad to read. xx

Mwahahahahahahahouseface Mon 24-Oct-11 10:48:55

Guess what.. plenty of women do actually enjoy having fun, dressing up in risque clothes, and having a banter with blokes. It does not mean that they are giving the blokes permission to touch them. Some women enjoy flirting, and dont mind getting looked at by men. We dont need to look any deeper.

Here here!!

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 10:50:12

missing, that's just made me think of one of our teachers ranting at a girl in my class that she should wear a 'decent' minimiser bra (we all wore very boring thick-strap white sports bras, it's not as if she was wearing anything particularly noteworthy before!). I'd forgotten all about it and had no idea back then that minimiser bras are actually quite painful ... it's awful thinking what we just accept without knowing any better. sad

Hardgoing Mon 24-Oct-11 10:52:32

OP, I have also replayed some stuff from my earlier years and thought the same. Unfortunately, and perhaps it is still the same, young women were often treated in this way (e.g. groped on Tube, hands on bottom by boss when I was young, exposed at by naked flasher, had wedgie/thong pulled in pub garden). I won't even go into the more serious stuff.

I found that once I was a bit older and more confident and on a night out, I was more able to handle encounters with drunk men. It is when you are very young that you are very vulnerable, I wasn't well-endowed at all, but I can imagine this only makes you attract more undesirable attention.

An easy way to tell whetehr something is totally unacceptable is to ask: 'would I be happy for this to happen to my daughter?' or 'would it be fine for my son to do this?' In all those supposedly more 'trivial' examples, I would hate this to involve my children in this way.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 10:53:02

tooearly - you are right. Breast size is completely irrelevant.

It's nothing to do with what a woman looks like and is far more to do with the entitlement of (certain) men and boys who think women are a)less human than them and b)objects for their personal entertainment.

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 10:55:30

I found that once I was a bit older and more confident and on a night out, I was more able to handle encounters with drunk men. It is when you are very young that you are very vulnerable

That IMO is it.

It's about how to put 25 year old heads on 15 year old girls.

StopRainingPlease Mon 24-Oct-11 10:57:47

"some women have never been assaulted"

Really? I'd be surprised.

sad that a 15yo should need a 25yo head though.

shame men can't just respect that a child is a child no matter how big her breasts, or how confident she seems or even if she is flirting. a child.

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 11:08:44

Name calling- how clever of you!

It's a shame so many people can't seem to answer a post without twisting what others say to mean something completely different to what their post actually says.

Pity you haven't got anything constructive to say other than stating the obvious about rape and assault.

The OP isn't talking about persistant sexual abuse by a family member of a young child, she seems to me to be talking about one off assaults by strangers or people she knows casually. That is what I am talking about too.

I am just trying to establish why this happens frequently to some women and not others. As some of you have already said, it still happens when you are not dressed in revealing clothes etc. And I know it can happen to any woman.

Establishing if there was a pattern to abusive relationships or assaults isn't blaming the victim, it is about trying to find out if her low self esteem or patterns in childhood realtionships may have caused her to "allow" herself to be caught in situations with men that take advantage.

We all know in an ideal world no woman would be assaulted or raped and all men would show respect and treat women with it. But we live in a world where that doesn't always happen. You are living in a fantasy world if you think there is nothing you can do to protect yourself though- and I know we shouldn't have to, but we are talking about reality not ideal feminist fantasies. (I am talking about serious assault- not bra strap twanging)

And women frequently sexually harass men too- I have seen this on nights out where groups of women pinch mens bottoms and make suggestive comments in equal measures to men).

begonyabampot Mon 24-Oct-11 11:09:12

Onefatcat - are you trying to mess with the OP's mind? Been following this from last night and you have repeatedly addressed the 0P asking what it is about her that attracts this sort of attention. Why would you do this, as though you are trying to suggest she is in someway to blame.

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 11:10:53

It was only a few weeks ago I'm sure that there was a thread on MN somewhere from a mum worried that her DD had her breasts groped at school - a practice that must have been commonplace because it had it's own slang term (which I forgot.) So, it looks like the phenomenon hasn't gone away, that it's still not considered "acceptable" to sexually assault girls and young women and I fear in many cases, parents and peers still aren't believing them when it happens.

I think the not believing bit comes from being unable to contemplate that someone you care about could have been hurt in this way and bizarrely thinking if you can convince them that what happened didn't, or wasn't that bad, that it will make it all better. It doesn't. No way. Perhaps other girls also deny their friends' experience because if it can happen to their friend, it can happen to them as well. It makes them feel vulnerable so they have to convince themselves and their friend that what happened wasn't so bad, or was even their fault. Sadly, I don't think this has changed much.

Warm thoughts to all those who have experienced sexual attacks, whether they were aware at the time of the hurtfulness and wrongness, or it's something that has come to them later. It's shit, it just is truly shit.

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:12:07

onefatcat - I can help you here, I think. The pattern to abusive relationships/situations is that they always occur in the presence of an abuser. Just as rape always involves a rapist. Now we know that, we can start looking at how to stop abusers abusing and the problem will be solved.

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 11:12:55

I am NOT suggesting she is to blame!

Why do some women stay in abusive marriages while some get out? This must be down to the woman surely? Self esteem?

QuickLookBusy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:13:14

I think schools could do a lot more.

There ought to be some sort of national discussion about this. Teenagers spend a huge amount of time in school, it is an idea place to nuture some kind of approprate behaviour.

At my DDs comprehensive there is zero tolerence about sexual innuendo/touching etc.

QuickLookBusy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:14:49

sorry ideal place not idea

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 11:16:17

Ella- thats my point though! You will never stop abusers abusing and no amount of telling women it's not their fault will stop abuse. Surely women need to betaught to recognise abusers and avoid them and abusive situations as much as they can?

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 11:16:17

Oh heavens onefatcat, do you really believe that? Have you ever been in an abusive relationship or known someone who is? It's not like you can walk into a suite at the Ritz with 24/7 bodyguards to keep you safe.

Perhaps it's not just upset parents and frightened young girls who are desperate to lay blame at the door of victims because that seems an easier option than accepting that they or someone they care about could be vulnerable to sexual attack, just for the simple reason of being a female.

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:16:23

onefat - what do you propose to do for these women then? I can think of a way to raise 'self esteem' - why don't we teach children that abusive relationships are wrong, and punish adults according to the law when they participate in abuse? If abusive men knew they couldn't get away with it (I say 'men' because you mentioned women's self esteem, btw), they wouldn't do it.

I'm sure that would solve a lot of these 'self esteem' problems, wouldn't it?

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 11:16:41

I also HATE the "sexy" hen night trend. Don't kid me that women enjoy dressing in cheapo bits of polyester and glitter and getting letched at by sub-standard men. I'm sure that some will come on here to tell me that I Am Wrong but if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it.

How do you know what other women think - it is actually rather offensive to think that your viewpoint is the view of every other women! I don't need to "look deep" - I'm not saying I would enjoy it (well I probably would grin) but I have the capability to understand that others might enjoy something I don't and vice versa.

I work with adults who have been sexually abused as children and sexually assaulted and can say that OPs thoughts are very common - and yes of course a big issue is whether they are going to be believed or not, especially since paedophiles are very good at using fear of this as a mechanism for ensuring their victims silence. I always believe a patient who tells me they have been sexually assaulted as they have reached me in the first place, and it always involves me asking what happened.

But this is the internet and not everyone tells the truth - no-one on this thread has accused the OP of lying, I think the general question posed by WL asking for more information was ok - and as was OPs reaction - because they clearly have a lot of underlying anger issues to deal with, and could have read this as a "how dare you, don't you believe me" type reaction and representation of a bigger fear.

I don't think all the "how dare you you are sick for asking" type posts have been helpful to the OP either tbh, original post was very bare and minimal and it was natural that someone would come along and ask what had happened.

OP - I'm so sorry that you have had these experiences and wonder what kind of help you have had to come to terms with it all? Therapy can never make you forget the past but it can help you to process your feelings about it all so you can find some peace in your life and manage your relationships.

No women asks for or invites sexual assault, there is absolutely no excuse. And if someone has a history of this from men then naturally their opinions of men and trusting them again could be affected - but not all men are rapists etc, and this is important to remember. The most worrying and sad post on this whole thread for me is the woman who finds it sick that men have called her daughter beautiful. I would hope this little girl doesn't grow up with a distrust and fear of 50% of the worlds population for her own sake.

OP - good luck

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:17:50

I don't believe you will never stop abusers abusing. The evidence shows this is not so. Rape used to be legal in marriage; now it is rightly considered a crime. You can stop abusers abusing and go to the root of the problem, which is not women's low self-esteem, but the abuse that causes it.

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 11:18:09

The comment saying Ops breasts "weren't that big" - was made by 1 person every early on in thread, who hasn't been back. It is not a general representation of opinions here.

Why did my Step Dads best mate ping my bra strap when I was 17 and him 23, because HE thought it was fun and its what you do to women.

Why did my FIL photographer my cleavage, not me just my tits?, because he thought he was allowed to do it and its fun, but he also thinks its fun and clever to reduce women to objects full stop.

I could reel off a few more.

It was nothing I said or did, it wasn't down to my looking vulnerable or giving out signals, or even where my self esteem was.

It was because those men thought that it was acceptable, fun, clever, or just their RIGHT, not becasue I did anything.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:22:51

The pattern to abusive relationships/situations is that they always occur in the presence of an abuser. Just as rape always involves a rapist. Now we know that, we can start looking at how to stop abusers abusing and the problem will be solved.

How does that explain the high number of women who have several abusive relationships. That is a known pattern. Nobody is saying that the abusers are right, or should not be stopped, but when a woman goes from one abusive relationship to another, she is the one who is in need of support and help to stop the pattern continuing with the next relationship.

It is far more of a possibility to educate and help women spot the signs, and encourage them to build their confidence and self esteem than try stop abusers. I am not suggesting that abusers should not be stopped, I am simply saying that tackling it from the angle of giving them less chances to be abusers is more feasible. Once you are punishing an abuser for abuse, that means the abuse has happened. To me it is far better to do what you can to avoid the abuse being able to happen in the first place.

JeremyVile Mon 24-Oct-11 11:26:13

"but not all men are rapists etc, and this is important to remember. The most worrying and sad post on this whole thread for me is the woman who finds it sick that men have called her daughter beautiful."

What??

Who has suggested all men are rapists? Where?

And while I can't relate to someone feeling angry at men saying a 3 yo is beautiful, A) I think it's more sad that this woman probably feels that way as a result of her own experience of sexually aggressive men in her own childhood and B) THAT is the most worrying and sad post on this thread?? Really? More sad and worrying than all the posts of childhood sexual abuse? All the posts of rape and sexual assault?

I love how, no matter how reasonable some people try to make themselves seem, they just can't hide their underlying agenda.

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:27:26

Why do we need to 'explain' women who have a high number of abusive relationships? confused

People do research this stuff and it's not exactly rocket science to know that if a woman has been taught that abusive behaviour is normal, she will seek it out and expect it. But why do we need to explain it, or educate women, when it would be simpler to go after abusers (or both genders)?

If you insist on putting the onus on the abused person, abusers will just create more and more hurt, vulnerable people in their wake, who will need to go through the same painful process of learning it is wrong, getting out, moving on.

If you teach one woman to avoid abuse, an abuser will just go for the next vulnerable person. They won't stop.

Hardgoing Mon 24-Oct-11 11:28:35

I deliberately listed the things that happened to me in ordinary everyday life, not when dressed up and on a night out.

I have been groped twice on the Tube- should I not travel on public transport?

I was flashed at in the middle of the daytime in a field- should I not walk around in the daytime in fields in case there's a flasher about?

My thong was 'pinged' by a group of lads in a pub garden when out for a quiet drink- should I not go in pub gardens?

My boss fondled my bottom when I was collecting my paycheck aged 16- should I not have got a job as a waitress?

I was harassed and threatened by strange men shouting about how they'd like me to be involved in violent porn when I was walking home with a friend- should I stop going out with my friend?

What a stupid point that women go out and get dressed up, yes they do, but in my experience this is not where the trouble is, for most women simply going about their everyday business when young is enough to attract a small minority of predatory and self-indulgent men who think it's fine to leer and grope and poke. It's not, I do think it is becoming more unacceptable, no men dare do that now I am forty and would sue their assess off/shout 'why are you touching me?'/shout loudly 'get away from me you dirty pervert' (I have done the latter when approached randomly and asked for sex by a stranger).

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:29:21

(It's not that I don't get why you're saying that squeaky - I think we all want the same, to see this not happen to more people. It's just I can't help feeling that teaching potential targets how not to be targets is missing the point - we need to teach abusers not to abuse. No-one wants their child to grow into an abuser any more than tehy want their child to end up hurt.)

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 11:31:12

slightlymad - "It was because those men thought that it was acceptable, fun, clever, or just their RIGHT, not becasue I did anything."

Absolutely, I agree with you here 100%.

But for a lot of women I see in therapy its not as black and white. Low self esteem for example can affect women in all their relationships foe example can make them more vulnerable to emotional manipulation from their partner, affect their decision making capabilities etc. The end result is a lot of women stay in abusive relationships, thankfully a lot get out but some aren't so lucky as the number of women who are seriously injured or die at the hands of their partner (and ex partner to) is till too high. A key danger point for women is actually when they decide enough is enough and they want out - they are more at risk then.

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 11:31:12

squeaky

but there again, you are putting the onus on a woman not to be abused!

yes, her self esteem might well be at rock bottom, but abusers are very adept at seeking out people who are already vulnerable - they see the 'chink in the armour' and chip their way in

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 11:31:16

I wouldn't bother addressing or in fact interacting in any way with onefatcat who is clearly just here to be obnoxious.

And once again we come back to blaming women.

Women should recognise it, women should spot the patterns, women should do x,y and z.

Lets place the blame squarely where it belongs. On the men who do this and the culture which encourages all of us to look upon low level sexual assaults as no big deal and just a part of life.

THAT is what needs addressing and dealing with.

Hardgoing Mon 24-Oct-11 11:31:40

And: this is not about abusive relationships for me, I have never been in one, thank goodness. It's about being a 16 year old girl just walking about, or getting a job, or being teased at school, it's about sexual harassment being just 'what happens' to girls. Why? I don't accept that for me or my daughters, and I am pretty sure my husband feels the same.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:33:40

A) I think it's more sad that this woman probably feels that way as a result of her own experience of sexually aggressive men in her own childhood

I love how, no matter how reasonable some people try to make themselves seem, they just can't hide their underlying agenda.

You really could not make this up!.. Do you not see the irony there... That poster has not mentioned any "sexually aggressive men" in her childhood hmm

PerryCombover Mon 24-Oct-11 11:34:00

Do you know I never really though about this until reading this thread and it is illuminating.
I was a very busty child and received lots of very inappropriate attention from grown men. I hadn't thought about it until reading this thread.

I remember my uncle saying I was jail bait and my being really confused by the term. He was a tosser but the entire inappropriateness of it all is only clear now. At least he was voicing his opinions and not acting on them.

I wasn't harmed by the experiences but I felt strongly that all men were "the same" <titsperverts> for years.
Hope you are okay OP

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 11:34:02

"If you teach one woman to avoid abuse, an abuser will just go for the next vulnerable person. They won't stop."

Well said EllaDee.

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 11:35:06

jeremyvile - I have no idea what agenda you seem to think I have hmm

I didnt actually say anyone has suggested all men are rapists either - but in my experience it is a common feeling, wrong but understandable in people who have been victims of repeated abuse. And it is this belief that can stop them moving forward.

I happen to agree with you ella - educating both sexes is the way forward.

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 11:36:20

By all means squeaky, yes, we do need to put greater emphasis on girls and young women's self-esteem, confidence and ability to make informed decisions about all aspects of their lives, including how they interact with other people. Unfortunately, there are still so many messages out there telling girls that they should be passive, pretty princesses and be flattered by attention (any kind will do) from all important men that it undermines that goal.

But, as Ella says, it's not just about "re-training" the targets to move away from those targeting them. There is work to do both with socialising young men to respect women as human beings of equal value with their own personal boundaries that should be respected. And, it is important to challenge men (and the women who support their views and behaviours) of any age who believe they are entitled to violate the sexual boundaries of any female, just because they can.

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 11:36:36

There has to be a two pronged strategy IMO, absolutely pushing for policies/laws/education to increase pressure on abusers - but IMO its very hopeful/naive to think that would stop all abusing, so - IMO - we also have to teach women how to spot and avoid abusive behaviour, and especially how to break out of the cycle.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 11:37:37

Squeakyfreakytoy

'we have threads on here by people who would consider a man holding a door open for them as some sort of assault'

Because it does seem, as Worra says, that the hardcore feminists are always waiting in the wings, ready to pitch into a thread like this, and go into full man hating mode without needing to know any of the details.'

How could you possibly think that these are appropriate comments on a thread where the OP is talking about sexual assault?

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:38:30

but there again, you are putting the onus on a woman not to be abused!

What exactly is wrong with helping women to spot danger signs, and to possibly have the confidence and awareness to not get too close to someone who is likely to abuse them. I wish someone had been around to give me advice and strength to recognise abuse and walk away before it escalated.

yes, her self esteem might well be at rock bottom, but abusers are very adept at seeking out people who are already vulnerable - they see the 'chink in the armour' and chip their way in

So we need people who can help a woman block that chink, and give her the mental strength and self confidence to be less vulnerable.

newbiedoobiedoo Mon 24-Oct-11 11:40:07

OP I developed very quickly too and in my early to late teens I was definitely taken advantage of by sometimes much older men. In hindsight, yes I was sexually assaulted so I know how you feel! sad

Posting on AIBU was always going to open a massive can of worms! I can understand why you posted it here, traffic etc. but I'm not surprised it's led to questions, debates etc.

I assume that the posters who asked for clarification etc weren't trying to be vindictive, or disbelieving, or dismiss the seriousness of sexual assault. I just think it was a little hard to understand from your op what had happened because it's hard to understand how someone wouldn't recognise a sexual attack IYSWIM. Your being 13 obviously changes that considerably.

If you'd been held down and raped you would have known straight away what had happened to you, even as a child of 13 and I think maybe this is what some posters were thinking when they asked what had happened?

The fact is, things that happened to me (I had an activity in the same hall as a boxing club and the amount of times I was full on groped while the trainers looked on laughing!) were assaults but nobody else would have seen it that way. I should have been outraged and gone to my parents, gone to my teachers etc. etc. but I didn't because although I didn't like it, I didn't see it for what it was. But sexual assualt is still a ridiculously grey area.

I'm sorry for what happened to you. And I'm sorry for my stupidly long post! smile

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 11:40:52

flipping - I can only speak for myself but I have no intention or interest in "blaming women" - I don't view my job as that but in a world where both sexes can be abused in relationships it is important to help people think through their feelings. This does not imply that is their fault and making this clear is a very important part of therapy.

JeremyVile Mon 24-Oct-11 11:41:17

Yes squeaky, you're right she doesn't specify childhood smile

I don't know whether the attention that has made her uncomfortable happened in childhood or not, but in terms of my general point it doesn't make any difference.

Straws. Grasping.

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 11:43:27

squeaky
i didn't say there was anything wrong with supporting women who have been in abusive relationships, or in helping them work through strategies to avoid subsequent abusive relationships, but it won't stop abuse.
i think what you are advocating is dangerous, it's almost educating women to be suspicious of every man - they are NOT all RAPISTS.

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:43:45

squeaky - I think what's wrong with it is that it's awfully easy, when you're in a vulnerable position already, to take such education as blame. I know it isn't intended that way, but that's how it comes to be seen. If there were a way to guard against that, I'm sure it'd be fine. But I think it's impossible.

I do think talking about 'confidence' is not easy here - nothing is going to destroy your confidence like abuse. The simplest answer really is to go after the abusers.

I don't see anyone these days suggesting good ways for married women to avoid marital rape - we just tell them to get the hell out! The same should be the standard for all abuse IMO.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:45:41

I assume that the posters who asked for clarification etc weren't trying to be vindictive, or disbelieving

Exactly, only one poster (worra) politely stated that "Well it's hard to say YABU or YANBU without knowing what the 'incidents' were to be fair."

Which is not disbelieving, or doubting, or even asking for more information. Which the OP then posted anyway in the next few minutes without any other poster questioning it.

From then on, not one single person has suggested that the op was not assaulted either.. so where all these angry people are getting the idea that the op was accused of lying, or doubted, or dismissed, I have no idea.

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:46:04

'If you'd been held down and raped you would have known straight away what had happened to you, even as a child of 13 and I think maybe this is what some posters were thinking when they asked what had happened? '

This is not true. It's horrible, but it is not true. Some people who are abused actually blank out the memory of it entirely.

This is really important - it is not true that anyone who has been raped, even violently, will be able to process that that is what happened. Especially a 13 year old.

JeremyVile Mon 24-Oct-11 11:46:22

Duckdodgers- apologies, when you addressed the thread with "not all men are rapists etc, and this important to remember" I took that to mean you felt we needed reminding.

I see now it was just a statement without any real point smile

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 11:48:40

How could you possibly think that these are appropriate comments on a thread where the OP is talking about sexual assault?

Remember this is AIBU, so it is not unreasonable to assume that:

- the OP is going to be asked to clarify things
- that differing opinions are going to be aired, and thus
- that people are going to read things they strongly disagree with

AIBU has the traffic, but thems the breaks that come with it.

Maybe this thread should be moved then, to another section?

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 11:49:00

And jeremy yes that was the most worrying because it potentially affects a little girl growing up with unnecessary fears - and this will affect her quality of life.

I see a lot of women with children who have fears that their experiences will affect their children, often a trigger point in asking for help after many many years of struggling on alone. Almost as if they think they dont "deserve" anything better but wanting help so their children will grow up not negatively affected by it all.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 11:49:52

Yes. Let's put the onus on the woman. Or the CHILD. The OP has said she was sexually assaulted at school. Wearing her uniform.

I think this is an opportunity to go and talk to your secondary school age DCS. Find out what their school's policy is on sexual harrassment/assault. If they don't have one, worry.

Ask your DCs about the language used to girls. Ask about groping, pinching etc - is it commonplace? If it's witnessed by a teacher how do they respond? Are girls encouraged to report incidents?

This isn't something from the distant past or something about grirls in nightclubs. This is about schoolgirls in uniform being sexually assaulted by fellow pupils. About strangers touching or heckling them in the street as they walk home. This isn't something that self confidence can stop.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 11:50:10

I didn't read that in your posts duckdogers, it was a comment elsewhere.

I think Kritiqs post at 11.36 is excellent and summarises how I feel about this issue very well.

newbiedoobiedoo Mon 24-Oct-11 11:51:00

EllaDee that was me! But I meant it in the context of KNOWING it was assault IYSWIM. Probably not explaining it very well! Someone earlier said something about different levels of assault. A lot of people (that I know anyway) actually think this! They would think rape, as in penetration is terrible but a grope, and unwanted kissing is less terrible! Seems to be a general opinion unfortunately!

You may block it out later but you KNOW you've been raped when it's happened whereas at 13 if a boy older than you gropes you, you may not be aware that it's wrong. (very badly explained sorry!)

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 11:51:25

Thanks jeremy - sorry if it wasn't clear smile - people with a healthy self esteem and view of the world will of course know this, but I don't tend to see people in my job like this sadly.

JeremyVile Mon 24-Oct-11 11:52:36

"And jeremy yes that was the most worrying because it potentially affects a little girl growing up with unnecessary fears - and this will affect her quality of life."

Still more worrying than the incidents of sexual abuse and rape?

It's ok, just checking. Always handy to know these things, makes it easier to sift through the dross.

Ella, I was in my mid 20s before I could tell myself I had been raped as a child, bfore that, even though I held some memories of what happened, I kept most of them hidden in a locked box inside my head. It was the only way I could survive what was done to me, the same dealing with my fathers behaviour and the abusive relationship I had found myself in.

At 13 years of age I would not have been able to process any of what had happened and I ceertainly would not have come out of it with the level of sanity I have now.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 11:54:44

*'we have threads on here by people who would consider a man holding a door open for them as some sort of assault'

'Because it does seem, as Worra says, that the hardcore feminists are always waiting in the wings, ready to pitch into a thread like this, and go into full man hating mode without needing to know any of the details.'

Are these asking for more information? You're using the OP to attack other people.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:54:53

This isn't something that self confidence can stop

I would disagree. Schools have the platform to educate both sexes in what is inappropriate behavior. If girls are taught from an early age that they do not have to accept lewd comments from boys, and boys are taught that it is insulting to make those lewd comments, then we have made some progress.

As I said on the thread last week. Sex Education in schools from I am aware is pitifully inadequate. Children need to be advised on boundaries in relationships, how to treat each other with respect, and how not to feel pressured or bullied into submission. With self confidence, girls, and boys, can feel more able to stand up to bullies, whether it be sexual or not.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 11:56:47

Actually JeremyVile makes a good point.

Why do we need to be reminded that all men aren't rapists? No one has said that they are.

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 11:58:17

I think I see what you're saying newbie ... I just don't think it is right. You hear all the time of people who only realize much later on they were abused. At 13, I do not think every child would be mature enough to understand - the pressure to normalize and rationalize what happens to us is so strong.

This is why I always want to say, go after abusers not the abused. Because abusers take advantage of that drive we have to normalize our situations. If we educate women to some list of 'signs of an abuser', all that will happen is abusers will change their way of operating. It's probably not even conscious.

You can see this if you compare what people complain about now with a problem page from 30 years ago when our mums where first married.

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:58:38

MNP when I made that post, numerous other posters had already been ripped into and attacked by people who are very well known for their very strong feminist views. Also, the effing and blinding was also coming from the feminists too.

TechnoViking Mon 24-Oct-11 11:58:42

I may have missed this being said already.

We need to be teaching our boys that this kind of behaviour is NOT the norm, isn't boys just being one of the boys, nor funny or to be encouraged.

By "we" I mean society, but while the media continues to show young women / girls as objects, excuses will always be made.

It makes me very sad.

EllaDee Mon 24-Oct-11 12:00:23

slightly - I'm sorry to read that. sad

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 12:00:49

How many of you have experienced unwanted sexual touching under the age of 18? (I'll pluck out of the air a definition of having your breasts, and anything covered by knickers deliberately touched/groped.)

Did you report it? (to teachers/parents/police)

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 12:01:34

I have, and no I didn't.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 12:01:54

It has been said TechnoViking but so what. I think it bears saying more than once!

newbiedoobiedoo Mon 24-Oct-11 12:02:45

I think you're right Ella about at 13 not being mature enough to process what's happening. I certainly didn't realise until my 20s that those people shouldn't act that way. And the OP has reached this conclusion now, years later.

But I do still believe that people on the thread had innocent and genuine reasons for asking for clarification and in no way meant to put the OP on trial or make her feel that her assaults were any less serious than they were! (ever the optimist!) smile

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 12:02:53

"And jeremy yes that was the most worrying because it potentially affects a little girl growing up with unnecessary fears - and this will affect her quality of life."

Still more worrying than the incidents of sexual abuse and rape?

Its hard to explain yourself sometimes here, sorry. Worrrying yes because it can (and Im not saying it will - of course) cause problems when that little girl grows up, I see a lot of so called vicious circles. Of course the incidents of sexual assualt/rape are horrible, but sadly maybe I just hear about it so often Im just keen to stop the mental health implications from developing in the first place if that makes sense. I don't work with abusers, I only see the victims (of both sexes).

I would love interventions to target abusive behaviour and for it all to be successful, but sadly I think it would be very naive to think that abuse will ever cease to exist.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 12:03:09

Perhaps, Squeakyfreakytoy, they were responding to comments like 'that's not that big' about the OP's breast size.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 12:03:54

MNP

To your first question - Yes

Did I report it - No.

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 12:03:59

i used the phrase 'not all men are rapists' in response to the suggestion that women who have previously abusive relationships should be taught how to avoid getting in a subsequent abusive relationship.

i used to put the point across that we cannot expect women to eye all men with the same suspicion until they have proved themselves 'worthy'

newbiedoobiedoo Mon 24-Oct-11 12:04:08

*We need to be teaching our boys that this kind of behaviour is NOT the norm, isn't boys just being one of the boys, nor funny or to be encouraged.

By "we" I mean society, but while the media continues to show young women / girls as objects, excuses will always be made.
*

Exactly!

Mwahahahahahahahouseface Mon 24-Oct-11 12:04:41

Why do some women stay in abusive marriages while some get out? This must be down to the woman surely? Self esteem?

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 12:05:36

Perhaps, Squeakyfreakytoy, they were responding to comments like 'that's not that big' about the OP's breast size.

Yes, perhaps you are right there, and I agree, flippant comments like that were not only ignorant and unhelpful, but unnecessary.

As to your last question, my answers would be yes, and no sad ....

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 12:07:17

I think that most of us will have Squeaky sad

TheScaryJessie Mon 24-Oct-11 12:09:15

It is great when individual girls and women learn that they are entitled to respectful treatment, but it doesn't really help their younger sisters coming into adolescence. There's always more inexperienced teenagers for arseholes to focus on instead.

These days, I know that it isn't rude and over-reacting of me to tell a guy to stop pressing his crotch against my bottom, for example. That's great for me. But there is always going to be a constant supply of teens who don't know that yet. Shouldn't we target the behaviour of the groping bastards?

JeremyVile Mon 24-Oct-11 12:09:40

So duckdodgers, i take it you counsel adult survivors of childhood abuse?
And you find incidents of childhood sexual abuse and rape LESS sad and worrying (your words) than a woman, one woman, who said she hates men complimenting her 3 yo?

Quite honestly, that is shocking.

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 12:11:19

mwahahaha I didnt say what you have quoted but I'm unsure what your reaction is about? confused

Its not a question of "blaming" the woman but in a lot of cases women do stay in abusive relationships because of self-esteem issues sadly. As well as a lot of other reasons to of course.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Mon 24-Oct-11 12:11:51

I'm agreeing with all of Squeaky's points.

Also, regarding the 'that's not that big' comment... I actually read it in a different way, considering that OP was upset about large bust size and by a poster saying 'that's not that big', I took it as a more comforting, "Don't worry, I've seen bigger, you're not a freak" kind of comment. It is amazing how fast some leapt (and bandwagon-jumped) to "competitive bust sizes".

This is a discussion thread. I personally find my teeth itching when I hear "Sorry that this happened to you" as a stock response to everything. It's said so often that it's just white noise to me and I think it's pretty meaningless.

There have been some really valid comments (IMO) on this thread; there's nothing at all wrong with protecting those you love by reminding them of the cretins, suggesting that they take a little care even though they are absolutely not at fault in any way if they are assaulted/raped. Awareness of self and personal responsibility is a wonderful thing to teach.

altinkum Mon 24-Oct-11 12:12:08

why is this bothering you now OP?, what made you think like this now?

worraliberty Mon 24-Oct-11 12:13:30

I also HATE the "sexy" hen night trend. Don't kid me that women enjoy dressing in cheapo bits of polyester and glitter and getting letched at by sub-standard men. I'm sure that some will come on here to tell me that I Am Wrong but if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it

Un-fucking-believable shock angry

If that was a man posting that a woman 'knows she only thinks she enjoys something'....there would be fucking uproar!

It's things like that, that make me sad. Some women are utter mind control freaks towards other women...yet they'd be the first to shout down a man for trying to tell women what they do/don't think in their own minds hmm

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 12:16:02

There was a thread about someone's friend. The woman had gone to meet her new DP and his friends in a pub. They threw a lot of double entendre at her, and when her DP went to the bar, one of his friends hugged her and unzipped her strapless dress.

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 12:17:31

No I really dont think you get me. I hear horrible stop of rape and sexual assault day in and day out. Nothing I can do in my work will ever stop that happening - I feel powerless to stop it because I am. But I am not powerless to help women come to terms with what has happened to them. And I am not powerless to help these women help their own children grow up mentally healthy.

And it wasnt just because 1 woman said she didn't like men complimenting her 3 year odd - it as the implications behind this because she said it was "sick" - and its not sick its normal! - and what else this may mean for the child.

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 12:19:45

squeakyfreakytoy Mon 24-Oct-11 11:54:53 said, "Schools have the platform to educate both sexes in what is inappropriate behavior. If girls are taught from an early age that they do not have to accept lewd comments from boys, and boys are taught that it is insulting to make those lewd comments, then we have made some progress."

Yes, but it will only make a difference within a wider context of socialising boys not to respect girls and women as full human beings and holding men account for violating other humans' boundaries.

No one is suggesting that girls and young women shouldn't be supported and encouraged to be self-confident and be able to make positive, informed choices. However, I do believe that is difficult when so many other societal messages are saying exactly the opposite thing.

However, by just focusing on "sorting the girls," it would be like saying you need to focus on raising Black people's self-esteem, or young Lesbians and gay men's self-confidence or disabled young people's sense of self worth and respect - but not worry so much about addressing the attitudes and behaviours of other people that stand in the way of them being regarded as valued humans, feeling safe and able to achieve their full potential.

aliceliddell Mon 24-Oct-11 12:20:02

There was a tv programme on this topic recently; the woman had been sexually harrassed from pre-teenage and had (very successful) reduction op and psycho therapy/counselling to help her recover. The main point was that the prob was never her breasts really, they were just an inconvenience. It was the way people, mainly men, treated her, asif she were just a vehicle for her breasts/their entertainment.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 12:21:26

Ah right tooearly I didn't see that post, will have a look.

I was actually responsing to something somebody else had said upthread.

I agree it's important that women are taught about stuff like abuse, red flag behaviour and so forth. But at the same time lets educate men and boys about acceptable behaviour. Lets teach them that abuse is wrong and not ok. I believe all this stuff should all be done at school and I think Pippi actually refers to that in her OP.

tooearlymustdache Mon 24-Oct-11 12:24:25

KRITIQ

that's what i was (very clumsily) trying to say

i'm not in the best place for posting on this thread any longer, will hide it now

hope you're ok, Pippi and others who have disclosed on thread

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 12:24:50

And this too wrt to teaching in schools:

"Yes, but it will only make a difference within a wider context of socialising boys not to respect girls and women as full human beings and holding men account for violating other humans' boundaries".

Btw I am not sure why feminism is coming in for stick here. Last time I looked feminists weren't running about sexually assaulting women and teenage girls.

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 12:25:10

I think everyone needs to be educated, not just boys. Women can and do abuse to. I am not naive to think that it is anywhere near the numbers of abusive men but women can abuse their partners to, be it men or women partners.

TheScaryJessie Mon 24-Oct-11 12:25:14

PS: at the time, my mother still used to choose my clothes, and she very, very much believes that rape is connected to what clothing the victim was wearing. So I don't think it was my clothes.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Mon 24-Oct-11 12:26:07

I agree with that, aliceliddell. The counselling really is important and I wish I'd had somebody to talk though the underlying issues with, not just deal with the physical surgery. Mine was 26 years ago, it wasn't common then, I don't think.

Absolutely, flippinada, it's a decency issue, appropriate behaviour and treatment for both boys and girls and it should be learned at school and reinforced at home.

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 12:28:13

I absolutely abhor the belief that it a women clothes that are somehow to blame for being raped. This is just an excuse to deflect responsibility from the rapist. I would really really hope that in the legal profession this is not used by defence lawyers still in this day and age.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 12:29:48

LyingWitch I don't read the 'sorry that happened to you' as meaningless.

It's a way of saying to someone that you acknowledge what happened, you have 'listened' (wrong word to use on a talkboard perhaps) to them and saying that you are sorry they had that awful experience.

Sometimes people appreciate just being heard/listened to.

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 12:30:18

squeaky is the voice of reason.

I don't really see how I have said anything that is not really reasonable. Maybe I am not expressing my views well? Some people don't seem able to see a different point of view without shouting and stamping and swearing at the person they disagree with.

I think you can educate men and boys that casual sexual harassment such as that displayed in schools, and pubs etc is not ok.

However, I don't think that serious assaults and abuse in the home and relationships will be really helped by education alone. I still think that girls need to be helped to recognise and avoid and understand when their rights are being violated. An abuser must know they are in the wrong and seriously hurting their victim- educating them isn't going to stop them or make them never start- there will always be people that abuse others.

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 12:30:33

Don't kid me that women enjoy dressing in cheapo bits of polyester and glitter and getting letched at by sub-standard men. I'm sure that some will come on here to tell me that I Am Wrong but if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it

I think that describes nearly the entire young (and not so young) womanhood of the UK on a weekend night.

Its clearly a shitty job, but someone has to do it grin

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 12:32:45

Yes women do abuse too duckdogers. I know this from personal experience.

But I also think it's ok to talk about women's experience of sexual assault etc without having to say, look this happens to men as well and women also do it.

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 12:33:37

flippinada "Sometimes people appreciate just being heard/listened to."

Very very true. This is the first step in therapy to for people to tell their "story".

windsorTides Mon 24-Oct-11 12:37:23

Actually, it's perfectly reasonable to question the hen/stag night culture and wonder whether that's really what you want to do, or whether you are bowing to peer pressure. The same could be said for men who according to most posters who start threads about it, seem to feel pressurised by their mates to visit lapdancing clubs and reluctantly have private dances bought for them by the best man.

So we have hen nights where women dress up as porn stars, in physically uncomfortable outfits and stag nights where men "treat" themselves to sexual contact with a stranger who's also wearing an uncomfortable outfit, but who needs to look 'sexy' or she won't get hired or paid.

And you can't see the inequality or the sexual politics in that, or that it's worth questioning?

duckdodgers Mon 24-Oct-11 12:40:21

Yes of course flipping but its all relevant when you think about education because we are thinking about the whole issue of abuse here and simply targeting boys at school for example I feel is wrong. You can also educate till your blue in the face - sadly it doesnt mean people will always listen.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Mon 24-Oct-11 12:40:24

I guess I don't like the phrase because there used to be a poster who would say it to somebody straight after slamming the same person for their post. I could almost hear the gritted teeth and when it was said to me, it didn't mean much. The poster hadn't been listening just ranting away themselves.

That doesn't mean that I don't think there are some very lovely, empathetic women on MN who really do have the knack of knowing what to say to bring comfort to somebody in pain.

I hope that's clearer now. I was thinking aloud (and shouldn't have been) about the phrase, that's all.

porcamiseria Mon 24-Oct-11 13:04:58

I dont really understand what the OP wants? I am not undermining what happended to her. But why is she upset now?

I always said that the time I got the most sexual attention from men was when I was a 14 year old schoolgirl, sad but true! and its true that large breasted girls do get hassled at school (I got called SLAG, even though I was virgin)

I think OP needs to take some action to "complete" and resolve this area of her past, and if that entials FB some of the twats so be it

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 13:05:33

IKWYM about educating duckdogers but we have to start somewhere.

For me the problem is that this attitude seems to be endemic. We have a a culture where minoir assaults are regarded as part of life, where women are routinely objectified, where it's seen as ok/acceptable to buy someone else's body as a treat for yourself (yuck).

At least if this stuff is being taught in school it's a start.

LyingWitch I can quite understand why you wouldn't like it if you see it being used in a dismissive way. I don't like that either - it's rude.

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 13:07:07

I think we can all struggle a bit with words when discussing an issue like this. Discussions here have caused me to reflect back on things that happened decades ago and recognise that how I made sense of things back then is quite different than I would now. Sometimes, we rationalise stuff just to get through, to survive, to save ourselves more pain, because others tell us not to make a big deal or because we don't actually know any other way to deal with it at the time.

I suppose not everyone may be yet "at the place" where they can feel okay enough to look back on things and not feel the hurt rushing back, and that's actually okay. But, even when you haven't got to that stage, or you genuinely haven't had any experience of sexual assault, harassment, etc., then it does help to step back a little and think how the things you say and way you say them could be very hurtful for someone who is more directly affected by the issues in the here and now.

worraliberty Mon 24-Oct-11 13:08:21

Windsor it wasn't being 'questioned'...the poster came right out and said if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it

That's not questioning...that is claiming to know what goes on in other women's minds and is totally ridiculous.

stellarpunk Mon 24-Oct-11 13:14:08

This is a very interesting and thought provoking thread. Pippi, I'm sorry for what you have experienced and I hope that you can access help and support if you feel you need it.

Like many, I too have been sexually assaulted over the years. U

Usually breasts being touched, bum being groped. Once had my skirt pulled completely off in a bar.

It's endemic isn't it? In fact, I would ask which woman hasn't experienced this at one stage?

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 13:20:28

And you can't see the inequality or the sexual politics in that, or that it's worth questioning

Tell you what I could see there - catsbumface puritanism masquerading as faux feminism.

I suppose not everyone may be yet "at the place" where they can feel okay enough to look back on things and not feel the hurt rushing back, and that's actually okay. But, even when you haven't got to that stage, or you genuinely haven't had any experience of sexual assault, harassment, etc., then it does help to step back a little and think how the things you say and way you say them could be very hurtful for someone who is more directly affected by the issues in the here and now.

Agree, it doesn't take long to reread what you have written and think 'Could this be worded better/differently' there have been so many posts on here, that could have been posted innocently but have caused hurt, distress and in my case anger, that a few seconds of paying attention to the detail and content it could have been easily avoided.

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 13:30:49

WTAF do you mean by "catsbumface puritanism masquerading as faux feminism?"

I'm most certainly not a puritan in terms of my social values or views on sex, but I most certainly can see the inequality and sexual politics in the post from windsor above. Whether it's hen or stag parties, it seems increasingly that the "role" to be played by women is as sexualised objects. My SIL's sister's hen party included pole dancing lessons and the next weekend her husband to be and friends were paying other women to pole dance (and other things) for them. Doncha geddit?

AnyPhantomFucker Mon 24-Oct-11 13:33:26

WMW I can see your agenda poking out again

zip up, love, won't you ?

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 13:33:34

Um, the discussion about recognising abusers and how to get women away from abusive relationships and their self esteem etc., is interesting, but um, the OP wasn't talking about abusive relationships.

She was talking about abusive men feeling free to assault her when she was young. If I walk along the street and some bloke grabs my breast or slaps my arse, it's not because my self-esteem is low or I have no self-confidence. It's because he believes that he is entitled to do that and that there will be no negative consequences for him.

All the self-esteem raising in the world, won't tackle that. So we have to tackle that.

Isn't that blindingly obvious or am I not seeing a great big obstacle that so many feminist-haters see? Is it that you think men are so awful, that we can't possibly educate them out of these horrible attitudes? And you have the cheek to call feminists man-haters, when you say that we can't tackle men's abusive attitudes? Why? Because you think they're so deeply ingrained htat there's nothing to be done about them? Or what? Seriously, why is there this immense resistance to the suggestion that we tackle the root cause of the problem of sexual harassment, instead of just tinkering around at the edges? Do you think men will be immune to the message that women are full human beings and that they don't have the right to assault or threaten them? Have you ever thought of examining your own negative beliefs about men, instead of kneejerking about feminists being man-haters? Seriously?

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 13:34:38

Don't kid me that women enjoy dressing in cheapo bits of polyester and glitter and getting letched at by sub-standard men. I'm sure that some will come on here to tell me that I Am Wrong but if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it

That is what I meant by "catsbumface puritanism masquerading as faux feminism"

begonyabampot Mon 24-Oct-11 13:35:00

stellarpunk - I'd imagine nearly every woman has experienced some kind of attention/assault like has been mentioned, when you think about how widespread it is, it's really quite serious. I've had numerous situations like groping etc, luckily I was able to shrug them off though one or two could have turned quite nasty and potentially very serious.

porcamiseria Mon 24-Oct-11 13:36:28

But many boys also would have had the shit kicked out of them when young also, some of the voilent bullying boys can experience when young is pretty vile too.

worth mentioning I think

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 13:38:33

I can see where you are coming from, and I agree, women don't seem to be seen as any less of a sexual object than they were in the past, often it actually seems more so (although often in a tongue in cheek sort of way). The biggest change I see in society, though, in recent decades is that rather than women being seen as more equal to men in terms of sexuality, we are doing the same to men in terms of making them sexual object- eg male strippers, naked posters, half naked sexy male dancers, etc

Whatmeworry Mon 24-Oct-11 13:40:38

WMW I can see your agenda poking out again

AnyPhantom, my "Agenda" such as it is , is very simple - ie that for any approach to this fix this problem to work, it has to have 3 things going:

- that boys and men should be educated
- that (especially young) women should be given as much self esteem and self confidence as early as possible, as so much seems to occur when they are younf and inexperienced
- that they should be taught to recognise the signs, and how to take avoiding action.

And it is my belief that any woman has the right to wear what she wants, when she wants, without getting groped by horny males or accused of not seeing the sex politics of her choice by other women

If you have a problem with that agenda, please let me know where.

love....

nellyjane Mon 24-Oct-11 13:44:18

OP - I'm curious - did the bloke you facebooked have the guts to reply to you?

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 13:47:01

porcamiseria, a teenage boy who is beaten up, isn't told that it's just a joke, that he's got no sense of humour, he should be laughing it off, and that's just what other men do, so there's no sense making a fuss about it.

So I'm not entirely sure why you think it's worth mentioning here.

Have I mentioned the crochet group that's held round the corner from me? That might be worth mentioning as well, because it has about as much relevance.

aliceliddell Mon 24-Oct-11 13:47:55

WMW Do you have any current plans to put a time limit on how long you continue to conflate feminism and puritanism? The two philosophies have nothing in common and it is simply tiresome to reiterate the same argument you've been using since Oh, Calcutta, Hair and Lady Chatterley. Pray desist.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 13:48:44

I don't have a problem with that agenda worraliberty.

I'm struggling to see what it's got to do with the thread though, apart from the teenage boys should be educated - everyone thinks that, it's one of the reasons we pay our taxes. Teenage girls should be as well. And adults. smile

porcamiseria Mon 24-Oct-11 13:50:14

the reason I am mentioning it is that shit things can happen to us in our early teens, thing thats happen less as we grow older.

girls get groped
boys get the shit kicked out of them, nasty physical bullying

Just its turning again into a massive feminist thing, and I dont see the need why

aliceliddell Mon 24-Oct-11 13:50:22

Wooop - if you're who I think you are, what crochet group? Don't they do quilting anymore?

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 13:50:55

Viz the hen night/ stag night shenanigans, my DB says it was a stag night that made him make the decision to give up drinking alcohol. He was just so gobsmacked by the whole unpleasant experience. grin

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 13:51:48

porcamiseria, the fact that boys are beaten and bullied would be worth mentioning, for example, if it related to sexual violence.

For example, I remember a boy in my class at school who was constantly bullied and physically assaulted on more than one occasion for hanging out with girls, for standing up for them when the boys were name-calling, bra pinging, groping, etc. He was accused of being gay. Whether he was or not I don't know, but he was abused and bullied because of his perceived sexuality (i.e. being "like a girl" so inferior,) and because he supported girls who were being sexually bullied.

If it's boys bullying boys about supporting a different football team or not wearing trendy trainers, it's probably better for a different discussion though.

aliceliddell Mon 24-Oct-11 13:53:06

porca you don't see why girls getting groped (and boys getting beaten up, for that matter) is a massive feminist thing. Really? <shakes head slowly> <pours large gin>

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 13:54:49

Really? You don't see why?

You don't have any idea why the fact that a girl is subjected to sexual harassment from the age of 12 ish, and is gaslighted by the whole of society in being told that her perfectly reasonable outrage is an over-reaction, while a boy who is beaten up is generally looked after and has the police called so that the hooligans who did it can be prosecuted, might be a feminist issue?

Oh dear.

Alice you're right, it's quilting! grin

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 13:56:05

Apparently equal pay's not a feminist issue either.

Or porn

Or rape

Or domestic violence

Or sex trafficking

Or maternity rights

Or housework

Or childcare

In fact, nothing is. grin

I think porca is saying Shit Happens Get Over It. <shakes head> got anymore of that gin Alice, fags and brews are doing it for me anymore.

windsorTides Mon 24-Oct-11 13:56:25

Denigrating men and sexually objectifying them is not progress though, is it?
It's also an utterly futile exercise in anyone's quest to build a society where men and women are treated with respect and dignity.

WMW what you fail to grasp on all of these threads (and you are not alone) is that like the poster here, women get assaulted while undertaking perfectly normal activities, like walking to their destinations, being in a classroom at school, going for a meal with her parents. What do you suggest this poster could have done in those situations to "recognise the signs and take avoiding action"?

tyler80 Mon 24-Oct-11 13:56:38

I'm surprised (and saddened)that anyone thinks that groping etc. is typical behaviour and ignored by society in general.

Never experienced anything more than an odd comment from a stranger.

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 13:58:22

I don't think it's relevant really, but the police aren't called for every boy that is beaten up- many will be told to "learn to stand up for themselves" and of course the police aren't going to be called for every incidence of bra twanging, bum pinching, but there will be police involved for many cases of more serious sexual assault.

worraliberty Mon 24-Oct-11 13:58:25

I don't have a problem with that agenda worraliberty

I think you might have the wrong poster but I can't find the one you were addressing that to blush

aliceliddell Mon 24-Oct-11 13:58:34

Woop for God's sake woman, don't you understand that some/all/one/none of those things could affect MEN? Are you mad?

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 13:58:53

Sorry porcamiseria - bit of a cross posting.

I agree with aliceliddel. If someone is being harassed, bullied or assaulted because of their gender or sexual identity (where their gender or sexual identity is seen as inferior by the bully and by society in general,) then I would say it most definitely is a "feminist thing."

I also think it is perhaps simplistic to assume that boys and girls "grow out" of abusive and bulling behaviours and the hurt such behaviours cause them.

The Relationship section on MN is choc full of examples of adult women on the sharp end of bullying, controlling and abusive men. Similarly, boys who bullied other boys for not being "manly enough" are quite likely to grow into the adult men who continue to taunt other adult men for the same reason. They can also be the same adult men who regard women in general as inferior and engage with them with that always in mind.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 13:59:40

Sorry you're right, it's Whatmeworry
It's the W's...

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 14:02:18

Actually boys will only be told to "stand up for themselves" if they have abusive parents, onefatcat. No decent parent will tell a bruised, beaten, crying teenage boy that he should have stood up for himself.

Whereas girls will be told to stop over-reacting by quite loving, good parents who are doing their best.

onefatcat Mon 24-Oct-11 14:05:27

But you can't compare a girl having your bra strap twanged with a bruised, beaten bleeding and crying child?
Loving parents of girls who have suffered a more serious assault would call the police.

porcamiseria Mon 24-Oct-11 14:08:14

I do think its part of growing up, and as I said earlier I think op needs to try and resolve and complete with this area of her past. I am not saying "shit happens, get over it" , I am saying, try to do something practical to adress and resolve it.

If you look at the stats, there are far more suicide rates with young men than young women. so that shows that the vile bullying teenage bioys experience does have an effect

anyway, the minute you said GASLIGHTING you lost me, ciao ciao

RIZZ0 Mon 24-Oct-11 14:10:47

Pippi - YANBU. I have had similar realisations recently arising from a recent (but not too serious luckily) sexual assault, that things in the past that I put down to blokes just being blokes were actually assaults that should have been taken more seriously.
Also, I also had big boobs from being a teenager and the constant comments and accidental brushes/grabs used to really get me down. It used to feel like everyone thought they had a right to comment or make a joke about them and my self esteem wasn't up to knowing/saying how wrong it was.

I do think though, that if you are going to post an issue that is sensitive, which this clearly is for you, AIBU is the wrong place. Think about the kind of posters that hang around in AIBU (usually looking for a laugh or a fight), it's not the place for support.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 14:26:36

Oh dear, I've lost porcamiseria

And there was I, thinking I had her in the palm of my hand...

Actually the problem with telling girls that it doesn't matter if their bra strap is twanged, is that you are telling them that it doesn't matter if boys overstep their boundaries.

Don't bloody expect them to be able to speak up and say "no", when it's really important, if you've told them that their personal boundaries don't matter when it isn't that important. Don't suddenly expect them to act assertively, outraged, furious when someone tries to rape them, if you've told them they're crazy over-dramatic bitches when their boundaries are breached first time. This is a situation where zero tolerance really is the only effective defence.

this article says it better

KRITIQ Mon 24-Oct-11 14:26:38

Thing is onefatcat, pinging of a bra strap might seem like a minor, slightly embarrassing that should be just forgotten. But, things like that rarely happen in isolation and not recur. If boys and girls aren't made aware that this isn't acceptable and why, it will continue to happen. It can escalate to name calling involving sexual slurs, and sexual touching. It can be compounded by a general atmosphere that boys are strong, assertive, natural leaders and in control while girls are just decorative, good at helping, caring and putting others first, modest and self-effacing.

So, what starts with bra snapping can move step by step to rape, with boys and young men believing they are entitled to sex from young women (because no one really told them it was wrong,) and young women confused by mixed messages and ill equipped to maintain their personal boundaries.

Porc, I do realise that young men more often successfully commit suicide. But, self-harming and suicide attempts are more common in young women. There could be a plethora of reasons for both, potentially connected to sexual identity and sexual harassment and abuse, but potentially not. It's probably for another thread if it's not.

MoaninMinny Mon 24-Oct-11 14:31:28

arent all three years olds "very very beautiful"?

The same posters turn up on these threads all the time

agree - mainly to try to manipulate the OP into taking a particular stance - its really quite tedious and unbalanced. OP if I were you , I would post the same OP on a forum where male and female are equally balanced and you will get a wider, more balanced range of replies.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 14:40:21

Yeah all the women haters always turn up on threads about rape and sexual assault to try and convince the OP that she's a drama-queen bitch and that everyone supporting her is a man hater.

And another thing - the problem with telling a girl that the bra twanging doesn't matter, is that you're also telling the boy that the bra twanging doesn't matter. In other words, you are reinforcing his belief that he has the right to sexually harass women and girls. Why would you want to do that, unless you believe that sexual harassment of women is a Good Thing?

FanjoForTheMuahahammaries Mon 24-Oct-11 14:40:42

I had heard the Feminist topic posters got the same sort of grief as the SN posters when on the main boards and I guess this is proving the point.

flippinada Mon 24-Oct-11 14:53:18

Yep us women are so unreasonable with our unbalanced views hmm.

blimey. just caught up. please tell me there is gin left in that bottle?

RIZZ0 Mon 24-Oct-11 15:07:40

Wooooooooooooooppity

Thanks for that link. Really good.

xanthum Mon 24-Oct-11 15:13:58

Haven't trawled through the whole thread and I may be repeating what others have said.

The same thing happened to me when I was 12/13 and onwards. I had a slim figure and large chest. The humiliation started when I was singled out in primary school and made to change for PE apart from the others. It continued in secondary school at 11/12 when the boys would bundle me into a quiet area and grope me and try to undo my shirt. Then there was the bra pinging, the pulling off of my bikini top on the beach (completely unwanted attention). Then there was the being flashed at on the street, unwanted attention from certain members of family and the list goes on.

It is hard to hear someone on here saying "shit happens" because it is so much more than that. I grew up believing that my body was for public consumption and that I had no control over myself or anyone else. This, for me, is the insidiousness of this type of behaviour towards young women and mostly it continues on. It is the normalising of completely inappropriate behaviour that does the damage to young women to the point that we don't even recognise it as such when it happens.

I know that this stuff still has a hold on me now because it shaped who I am in the present. Does this make sense to anyone?

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Mon 24-Oct-11 15:17:21

Absolutely.

It is the normalising of completely inappropriate behaviour that does the damage to young women to the point that we don't even recognise it as such when it happens.

Very well put.

total sense.

this thread is having a drip, drip, drip effect upon my memory. so much coming back to me that all fits together.

porcamiseria Mon 24-Oct-11 15:38:53

please dont bracket me in the "shit happens" category

I was only saying I would see this more as "bullying" than sexual assult, in the school context I mean.

you know what? I kind of take back what I said as this shit does stay with you. I had low self esteem and gave myself waaaay to freely to boys in my early 20s. who knows if the type of bullying I got at school led to this, most probably

I may not see this as a feminist issue per se, but I can see how it can fuck with young girls heads

and NO its not acceptable

and if you want to bracket is as feminist issue, fine by me

and I am osrry if it appeared I downplayed it

xanthum Mon 24-Oct-11 15:47:34

Porca, I understand what you are saying. I think that, as Swallowed puts it, this thread is allowing some of us to re-think and re-evaluate what happened to us as young women, especially in terms of how we are today. It's so easy to never think beyond what appears on the surface and who knows, for some this may be a good thing and for others, a bad thing.

porcamiseria Mon 24-Oct-11 15:48:48

it sure does! wierdly the more I think, the more shocked I am

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 16:03:22

Porca it's not everyone who has the grace to come back to a thread and acknowledge they've had a bit of a re-think, so respect to you for doing so.

StewieGriffinsMom Mon 24-Oct-11 16:24:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KouklaWhooooo Mon 24-Oct-11 16:38:21

Pippi I understand your OP totally and hope you can start to come to terms with this now. I am completely aghast at some of the comments on this thread. It was my sister who had her dress unzipped in the pub, and I don't think she sees it as an assault - just something that upset, embarrassed and humiliated her. I do think that such behaviour by men/boys is normalised in society to such an extent that the victims are blamed. My sister was criticised for wearing a strapless dress by one poster on my thread (which I was half expecting tbh) - but this attitude was very swiftly countered I'm pleased to say. It was a formal dress anyway, suitable for a wedding - but as far as I am concerned she could have been wearing a lapdancers costume and it still gives no man any right to touch her.

I'm sorry your mum didn't believe you about the waiter incident - sometimes people are far too bothered about making a fuss I suppose. I've filed that away in the back of my brain as the way not to behave, because, like spiders I have a very beautiful 3yr old girl. I want to raise her to not accept this type of behaviour, and to challenge it. But surely, it's not all about the woman's behaviour, her reaction or her self esteem - it can't be. It has to be the fact that boys and men think its somehow 'ok' to do these things. Boys think this is normal behaviour - that's what needs challenging.

KouklaWhooooo Mon 24-Oct-11 16:47:51

MNP my answers to your questions would be 1. Yes and 2. No.

I suspect there isn't a woman alive who couldn't answer 'yes' to your first question by your definition. Which is quite shocking. This thread has actually given me cause to recall the various incidents from my teens - and I didn't even have big boobs. Why is it ok for young men to grab young women, or even make lewd comments at her? I went to an all girls school - but I remember the walk home was like running the gauntlet, trying to avoid large groups of teenage boys who would leer and make a grab for various parts of the anatomy. The fact is onefatcat that I suspect all women have had this kind of unwanted male attention at some stage and it has nothing to do with her self esteem.

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 20:24:52

"Guess what.. plenty of women do actually enjoy having fun, dressing up in risque clothes, and having a banter with blokes."

I suppose you're right and I am wrong; some women DO enjoy it.

I think that they should aim higher than dressing to please men. Thick men at that.

woollyideas Mon 24-Oct-11 20:35:53

I've read almost the whole thread and this has brought back so many memories, from being flashed at as a child (aged about eight), to having someone stick their hand up my skirt as I walked up to the upper deck of a London bus, to having one of my mum's colleagues grope me when I was fourteen and working as a 'Saturday girl' in her office, to having my boss grab me and try to stick his tongue down my throat when I was waitressing in an Italian restaurant...

...To having a businessman expose himself to me on the tube, having a man get into a phone box with me when I was making a call and start rubbing himself against me, to having a sixty year(ish) old man throw a pack of condoms at me and saying 'How about it?' when I was on holiday as a seventeen year old.

Apart from the flasher, which I reported to a teacher who reported it to the police, I kept quiet about all of these incidents at the risk of causing embarrassment to other people (employers, family, etc.) and put it down to 'just one of those things that was part of being a young woman...' God, I wish I could turn back time and report every one of those bastards.

I'm by no means young and some of these things happened several decades ago now, but I remember them all like they were yesterday. OP - YANBU to only just realise that your experiences amounted to sexual assault. It has taken me more than a quarter of a century to understand and acknowledge my experiences for what they were.

Now I have a fifteen year old DD who has told me that one of her male friends 'dry humps' his female friends, particularly if they are tipsy. I've told her this is assault but she thinks I'm overreacting and she won't report it. Neither will any of her friends, although I know one girl has been seriously upset by his behaviour. Their 'acceptance' of his behaviour is shocking. My DD has said "oh that's just what [boy's name] does." I am seriously considering reporting it myself, but where to start? The boy is only fifteen himself and all I know is his first name and which school he goes to.

This is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read on here. The commonplace nature of these assaults makes you want to weep, doesn't it?

By the way, I had a chest like Keira Knightley's in my teens FWIW.

tyler80 Mon 24-Oct-11 20:37:17

My answers to MNP's questions would be No and N/A

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 20:39:32

Oh and I think my sides have just split from laughing at being called a puritan.

<false laugh>

That's one for the bingo. <ticks off "puritan">

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 20:45:46

Have to say I was a very confident teen and still society wanted me to be beautiful and conform, my first assault was when I was about seven and I was on my bike in a park. The next was at ten, then at 16.....

I am verbally strong, but just as boys are expected to judge us, girls are expected to parade for judgement. Are we vulnerable enough? Demure? Sexy? Available?
And we may think girls who wear Fuck all are doing for themselves, but who are the judges? Whose eyes are they wanting to focus?

sozzledchops Mon 24-Oct-11 20:50:48

thing is it is sooo common for these types of attention, I'd imagine we've nearly all had to deal with it - it is seen as almost a right of passage or something, unfortunately. It is so prevalent it seems impossible to deal with.

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 20:56:06

My comments about the hen night costumes were more a reflection on taste, tbh. I still think that that girls do it to conform (shivering at a taxi rank at 3am, barely covered up by bits of tatty cloth hmm) Do you have to dress in this way to have fun? No. Can you do fancy dress without looking horrendously over-exposed? Yes. Girls don't choose these outfits because they look nice or flattering. It makes me sad and disappointed that girls think that that's what fun is about, tbh.

mummymccar Mon 24-Oct-11 20:58:23

I've tried to read through all of the posts but it brings back a lot of painful memories so apologies if I'm repeating anything.

I was a 32ff most of the way through school and had so many awful incidents. From groping and bra pinging to one boy lifting up my skirt when I challenged him groping me from behind.

My school was awful and encouraged this behaviour by being negligent in tackling it. I reported so many incidents to them and not one got followed up with even a chat.
As a result when I was 15 two boys from school tried to break into the changing room when I was getting changed to go swimming. Managed to put my clothes back on before they got in and obviously didn't go swimming. Instead, they decided to hold me down and grope my breasts. After this they got over excited and wouldn't stop. They tried to rape me. They only reason they didn't was because they were disturbed. Even though it wasn't on school property I reported it to my teachers who wanted to ignore it. It was only on my insistence that it was reported to police. The school told me that if I pressed charges then they couldn't see a way for me to finish my GCSEs at the school. I didn't want to be expelled so I dropped the charges. The boys confessed during this that they hadn't understood that it was wrong.

I'm expecting a little girl now and I'm worried about her going through even 10% of what I did. Schools need to make sure they are educating boys that this is wrong.

PosiesOfPoison Mon 24-Oct-11 21:01:02

Mummy. [Sad]

BupcakesandHaunting Mon 24-Oct-11 21:03:30

mummymccarr angry That is terrible.

coldwed Mon 24-Oct-11 21:04:38

Did a poster really say that their daughter is very very very beautiful and men can't help but comment? well beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. The child is indeed a cutie (ordinary) like the majority of kids that age but really struggling to see the 'very very very beautiful' angle. People are bold as hell on here...might as well just be as bold and say whats on my mind.

LeBOOOf Mon 24-Oct-11 21:08:52

It sounded an odd thing to say to me too, but it's not really the main point of the thread, I guess, so I wouldn't get too hung up on it.

sozzledchops Mon 24-Oct-11 21:10:41

My Mil was raped when she was 10yrs on the way home from school by 2 much older boys/men. It was thought best to just let it lie and do nothing as far as I know. Sadly, she is a very damaged lady, i'd imagine this might have played a part.

StopRainingPlease Mon 24-Oct-11 21:26:24

Mummymccar, that's horrible. "The boys confessed during this that they hadn't understood that it was wrong." - I can't believe that though, not at 15. They were surely just trying to avoid facing up admitting blame.

And sozzledchops, also horrible sad. Who on earth thought it best to let that go?

mummymccar Mon 24-Oct-11 21:27:04

Thanks for the sympathy for my last post. Unfortunately though I don't think that what happened to me is as rare as we would like to hope, as Sozzled has just shown. So sorry for your MIL Sozzled, and at such a young age too.

Wooooooooooooooppity Mon 24-Oct-11 21:33:40

"It seems impossible to deal with..."

That's it, isn't it.

I think that's behind a lot of the thinking that says there's no point trying to get men to stop doing this, all we can do is change women's responses to it or get women to avoid it.

I think that attitude is born of a deep pessimism and exhaustion really. But also perhaps, a deep down cynicism about men? That they won't or can't change, so there's no point trying? So let's focus on getting women to protect themselves from this - by not going on the underground, not developing big breasts (how?) not walking past a man unescorted by another man (they don't do it usually, when other men are around because they respect other men's ownership of us) not being alone with a man...all this magical thinking that persuades them that if they follow those rules they won't be subjected to this indignity.

But they know that's unrealistic, so then you have to develop another layer of self-protection - laugh it off, pretend it's trivial, pretend it doesn't matter, accept that you have no right to have your physical boundaries respected in the way a man's normally are. Get angry with other women who point out that actually, outrage isn't an over-reaction, it's a proper response to this horrible assault on our place in the world - because that's what it is: every time it happens, it reminds us that in too many men's eyes, we have no right to be in that tube, in that road, in that house, in that office, without a male protector who will stop that man assaulting you.

It is very uncomfortable to face up to what this means. It means that all the pretence that we have equality now and that by and large men accept us as their equals, is a Big Fat Lie. If they did, they would be as outraged by this behaviour as feminists are, they would think it was terrible, they would imagine how they would feel if it was happening to them (instead of seeing us as the "other", who aren't quite like them) and they would not seek to minimize or deny our experience. They would also not join in with other men, or turn a blind eye to it when it happens, because they wouldn't feel a kneejerk loyalty to their own sex at the expense of that "other" sex, who are supposedly so different to them. It also means that most women have been conditioned to not identify with their own experience and the experience of their own sex - they distance themselves from the outrage so taht they can be identified with the winning side. Understandably. But it's uncomfortable to acknowledge.

And too many men and women, seem to think that it can't be changed, presumably because they have a really low opinion of men. And then they accuse the ones who do think it can and must change, of being man-haters. The logic has always escaped me.

sozzledchops Mon 24-Oct-11 21:40:40

regarding my MIl - her family I think. You know - the shame, the ordeal of everyone knowing etc, better to just ignore it. It was a long time ago obviously, she just mentioned it to me one day out of the blue when the subject of rape came up. No one else seems to know, my husband, his siblings, his father etc. Similar happened to my mum and her friend though my mum managed to get away. Nothing was done to the guy as his mum was a nice old lady and no-one wanted to upset her. Don't know if vigilante revenge was ever carried out in these cases by the families etc. Ah, the good old days.

AgentZigzag Mon 24-Oct-11 21:47:16

I thought it was an unusually negative angle to take on what I see as innocent chat as well BOF, but I believe it's relevant in a discussion on the normalisation of sexual assault.

If it's possible for intentions to be misinterpreted in a complimenting a child situation (and I thought a bit sexualised), it'd also be possible for it to happen with regard to a sexual assault.

Maybe the OP misinterpreted their behaviour as being OK (because nobody challenged them on it) and minimised it because it just seemed to be high jinks and part of the interactions between men and women?

There are lots of situations where children and adults don't 'notice' they've been assaulted (like sibling sexual abuse) and it's only later on they reassess their initial filing of the situation as 'normal'.

PosiesOfPoison Tue 25-Oct-11 06:48:03

So many threads on here seem to say the same thing at the moment, that a woman's body is not hers. From those who can't get what they want in bed to being groped walking down the street to having to please her husband whenever he wants. Wtf is going on in 2011. We must challenge this at every turn. Where to start? Normalization in the media? The men we know and the children we shape.....

angggla Tue 25-Oct-11 07:21:32

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

porcamiseria Tue 25-Oct-11 09:23:33

Things HAVE improved, what happended to poor sozzled MIL would not be tolerated now

But its hard as one the one hand we want to teach kids that this behaviour is not acceptable, but in parallel we are bombarded by images of sexily dressed girls wherever we look. I just dont know if this fuels the flames?

But as with everything, education is the key and it has to come from parents first and then school second

But I bet you if a boy comes from a broken home with a father that watches porn and reads the daily star, he will think the 32F girl in class B is fair game

i think part of thinking it can never change is to do with not facing who are the perpetrators. if you don't name the group who do this and tackle them then no it can never change. if you are afraid to name the group or are prevented from naming the group then they can't be tackled. if you can't name then then effectively you remain silent.

no one wants to hear but it is men doing this. that's the group and that's the group that has to be tackled. we can dress it up how we like but it's an act of males. pretending it's random strangers hiding in alleys, alien, unidentifiable types will not get things to change.

Wooooooooooooooppity Tue 25-Oct-11 09:46:00

Yes but when you name the group, you get accused of man-hating.

When people say that there's a problem with white working class males viz unemployment etc., no-one thinks that they hate all white working class males, they're just pointing out dynamics which disproportionately affect that group versus other groups. When they talk about gun crime and the specifics of how that affects young black males versus other groups, people don't think they hate young black youths or even tht they mean ALL young black youths.

It's only when men are named as a group, that the baying about hating starts. We must not speak.

yep but without naming them you can't tackle the problem.

and the fear of being called a man hater (daring to name a problem with men) is just a means of control.

and when you're talking about boys in school learning and repeating this behaviour then you have to look at adult men in schools and beyond and what role they're taking in socially reproducing these dynamics.

the trouble is that not only do you have to name the perpetrators group it is also that group that can put a stop to things by ceasing to reproduce this version of masculinity and actively teaching another way.

so not only do we have to name them and point the finger where it belongs they have to acknowledge it themselves, concede that it is unacceptable and actively go about changing it.

men need to change this. it's men who need to be shouting this is unacceptable, this has to stop etc. it's a male problem that can only be solved by men themselves.

pippi - did you get a reply to your facebook message?

sozzledchops Tue 25-Oct-11 10:19:06

I don't know, I think women also have to wisen up. We continue to be obsessed with objectifying ourselves as sexual objects and for many women/ girls, they feel that that is their only worth. It has to be approached on two fronts.

we're talking about children here sozzled. children doing nothing other than going to school in the uniforms prescribed for them. what exactly do you see them being able to do through wisening up that would prevent them being groped, molested and harrassed?

BupcakesandHaunting Tue 25-Oct-11 11:30:55

I think that men have been so conditioned by society and their elders that the low-level sexual assaults/harrassment that some of them mete out to women (I'm thinking the comments about the FIL commenting on his DIL's breasts/the FIL photographing his DIL's cleavage) is not seen as anything other than a bit of harmless fun. If a woman actually stopped them and said "You have just sexually assaulted me, did you realise?!" I bet half of them would be horrified at being accused of sexual assault. This is something that has been ingrained in a lot of males for generations and it might take generations to put it right.

On a different scale, I didn't think that it was racist to call the shop the "paki shop" until I reached the grand old age of 12 and started going to school and making friends with the "pakis" and I realised how inherently wrong it was. It was, and still is for some, acceptable to say things like this because a lot of people are so used to hearing it that it becomes popular vernacular. It might not be meant with any malice but it does untold harm and needs to be addressed.

Hardgoing Tue 25-Oct-11 11:38:36

Yes, one reason I knew the 'good guys' out there, like my male friends, male friends in my family, and my lovely husband is that they would be horrified by this, and on the rare occasion they did see someone pester me unwantedly and physically, say in a club, would challenge the person/intervene. So: I know not all men think like this or act like this and think it's just fine and dandy. I see it more as an out-dated (as groping by your male boss was quite normal when I was 16, now in my current workplace, it is just unthinkable behaviour), and a minority thing. I hope none of my male friends would ever think it ok to unzip a girl's dress and laugh at her, or pester someone physically on the dance floor, or say something lewd in the girl's hearing, or flash someone; having been out with them on nights out for 20 plus year, I know this is not normal behaviour for decent men which is why it has to be called out when it is seen.

i do think it is men who have to lead a cultural shift. it's them who have to show disgust and contempt towards other men who treat women like this. them who have to come down like a ton of bricks on boys who assault, harass and make uncomfortable their female peers, them who need to model a form of masculinity that escews this kind of behaviour.

women, much as they try, can't be the only providers of positive role models for boys. it needs men speaking up against this, men that boys admire and look up to. much as the black community needs positive role models to counter the gangster rap bullshit being pumped at young black men. it's in every ethnic group that there is a hunger for positive male role models to step up and challenge the norms.

it's definitely from within that this needs to change imo. there is only so much we can do without decent men joining with us - we've raised the concerns over and over what we now need is men to take up those concerns and act on them. we can nit pick around what we can do differently, how we can respond differently etc etc but it is the male group who need to change this.

yes. i guess that's my conclusion - that there is only so far a woman's movement or feminism can go without decent men recognising that their humanity is to be found in changing things too and therefore joining the cause to change masculinity and ask boys/men to step up and be full human beings with developed empathy and consideration. it isn't just women who need to grow and overcome behaviours and limits and move into new spheres but men too, men more so now.

so where are the good men stepping up and being on the right side? because it's not about men v women it's about fairness and decent human living v exploitation and sexual thuggery.

sermon over sorry for rant.

aliceliddell Tue 25-Oct-11 12:14:45

sAf I think that may well be true. But how? The education thing has its limits, because this isn't a problem of ignorance so much as a problem of power. There are examples of the dominant group or members of it voluntarily giving up control but only under pressure. The pressure can come from individuals but that is very atomised and dispersed, so ineffective. How does it get on the (small p) political public agenda?

aliceliddell Tue 25-Oct-11 12:15:46

X post

Mwahahahahahahahouseface Tue 25-Oct-11 12:37:36

DuckDodgers - I C&P'd what had been posted, I didn't say what had been posted. I assumed the poster (it wasn't you was it?) was asking why women stay in abusive relationships? Was that not the case?

Most don't have a choice. And reading this thread in it's entirety is bringing back memories I had long since hidden and quashed into the back of my mind.

sad

PosiesOfPoison Tue 25-Oct-11 12:48:45

What's in it for men? What's in it for them to be less sexist or sexual toward women? There's no carrot and women have no stick.

We have to go to the courts, we have a duty to report every crime, report every comment at school, fight porn sites, fight magazines, fight lap dancing bars, fight glass ceilings....EVERYTHING. FRom sport shoe advertising to a bra pinged at school.

KouklaWhooooo Tue 25-Oct-11 13:08:40

Teach women the assertiveness & confidence to object? As well as teaching boys it's wrong. I don't know?

This thread has brought many memories back to me that I had long since buried. I remember once at a work Xmas party I wore a dress which showed a bit of cleavage. At work the following Monday a photo had been taken without my knowledge - a close-up of my cleavage. This was passed around the office with much whooping & leering, and finally took up permanent residence in the drawer of a male colleague, who took pleasure in opening the drawer and showing me the photo whenever I walked past.

Why did I tolerate that? I didn't feel I could anything, I wouldn't have known how to object. It was cringworthy at the time. My partner at the time worked at the same place and was at the party, I was only a 34B bra size and it was a bank fgs - white collar workers who should have known better. Well, any man should have known better!

My husband would truly never ever do anything like this, he is totally un-leering and hates porn/disrespectful men/lapdancing clubs etc, so there are men out there that respect women. It is not all men.

Wooooooooooooooppity Tue 25-Oct-11 13:09:22

Well, what's in it for men, is a better life as a better human being. More equal, loving relationships free from resentment about uneven power balances, more certainty that their partner is with them because she wants to be, not becaused she needs to be, more validation for their feelings - the right to express the full gamut of human emotions, not just a tiny part of it, a freedom from the fear that they can never be man enough, never measure up to the absurd hyper-masculine role models Hollywood et al present them with, a right to be themselves without slotting into some awful, draining role ... all quite nebulous stuff, really and giving up power is a big ask. So lots won't do it voluntarily but hopefully there are enough who do value human decency enough, to do so.

KouklaWhooooo Tue 25-Oct-11 13:16:15

Good post Wooooooop.

TheScaryJessie Tue 25-Oct-11 13:19:22

A culture in which their mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters don't suffer the kind of treatment we've discussed in this thread, perhaps.

For many men, that is something they want.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Tue 25-Oct-11 13:24:23

[[ hugs ]] to all those sharing their experiences.

If we teach girls at school age that unwanted touching/groping etc is something they have to learn to deal with and teach boys that it's something with no real consequences for them, why would it stop when they all leave school?

So from offices to public transport to walking down the street, women's bodies are seen as public property for men to comment on. And women who complain about being shouted at by drivers or wolf whistled are told, often by other women, to take it as a compliment - that they should be grateful for the attention.

And when that male behaviour is seen as something that's just part of life that girls need to learn to protect themselves from, what kind of thought proccess does that set up when looking at sexual assaults and rapes?

Wooooooooooooooppity Tue 25-Oct-11 13:24:25

Yes that's also true. Men have to accept that if they want the freedom to abuse women like this, then other men will have the freedom to abuse their mothers, wives, daughters etc.

Of course a lot of them are willing to take that trade. That's how much they value the women in their lives. They're happy to tell them it's just a bit of fun, it's only if another man rapes "their" women that they get annoyed.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Tue 25-Oct-11 13:42:29

Obviously not all men engage in this behaviour, but for those who don't, actually challenging it in others can lead to them being ostracised or attacked as being 'gay' or in some way less of a man. So there is pressure to at least go along with it if not actively participate.

Wooooooooooooooppity Tue 25-Oct-11 15:13:09

Yes there's massive pressure. And that is because of the construction of masculinity.

In a group of say, seven, you'll probably have only 1 or 2 men who have out and out misogynist attitudes. You might have 1 or 2 progressives. The other 3 or 4 are basically reasonable men who will go along with the prevailing viewpoint. Those 4 will line up with the 2 misogynists instead of the progressives, because the cultural pressure to conform to masculinist crap is stronger, than the cultural pressure to be a decent human being. So the people with the least decent values, always manage to dominate a group. And yet at the same time, men are supposed to be brave and courageous. Hmmm.

Wooooooooooooooppity Tue 25-Oct-11 15:14:20

And again that's another benefit on offer - that men will no longer have to line up with the most vocal moronic bore in the group for fear of being found to be "not man enough".

mrstiredandconfused Tue 25-Oct-11 17:07:16

I hope you'll all forgive me posting here but reading this thread has got me thinking about my own experiences (I recognise that I have nowt to "complain" about in comparison to some posters on here who have obviously been through hell). This post is likely to be quite muddled but I hope you understand that I just need to let is out.

I was bullied for 10 out of 12 years through my first, middle and high school. It left me feeling totally worthless, my self esteem and confidence were non existent. I had very few friends and would regularly use break times just to hide (mostly locked in a toilet cubicle).

I feel that, for me (and I wouldn't assume that this is a generalisation AT ALL) my confidence was so low that I almost became conditioned to accept all sorts - groping, comments etc - from the age of about 12 onwards. This was fairly "normal" in school (comments from other posters saying school was like a zoo have really hit home). I had men follow me home from school, leering out of their windows, beeping - one even sat outside my house for 45 minutes during a lunch break only to follow me back to school and try to corner me in the park. Arse pinching, groping my chest, suggestive comments - I saw everything at the time as just being "normal".

The culmination was when, at the age of 16, I was about to sit my GCSE's. A teacher (yes, you read that correctly) cornered me in a classroom and said "I wish I could tell you all the beautiful things I want to do to you but I would scare you away". I am not an athletic person by any stretch of the imagination but I legged it faster than I ever had either before or since.

I told no one until I was 24.

In the few weeks between school and college I made fantastic new friends (including my lovely now dh! grin) and my confidence was boosted beyond recognition. So much so that when my father's work colleague (in his 40's) suggested, in front of both my parents, that at 16 he would do certain things for me in return for sexual favours I simply replied "piss off - I have got some standards". I don't know what my poor dad was more shocked at - his proposition or my response!

I suppose what I am trying to say that, for me, I put up with all sorts of shit when my confidence was at it's lowest and I felt that it was "normal" for me to be a victim in some way, shape or form (perhaps other people also saw me as a perpetual victim which contributed to a downward spiral?)

I don't know the way forward - maybe it's a confidence thing, maybe girls should be taught that there is a boundary of acceptability, maybe they need to be given the courage to stand up and make a fuss when something unacceptable happens, and maybe we need to teach boys what is and what is not acceptable and that there will be consequences for their actions. But to be quite frank, seeing how widespread this total lack of respect is and how many people have been through such awful experiences, it scares me shitless to think of what my (yet to be conceived) children might go through in the future.

newbiedoobiedoo Tue 25-Oct-11 17:18:19

You know I'm reading this thread and I have to agree with a poster further up, the more I'm reading and remembering from my own experiences, the more shocked I am!

I consider myself a confident and even gobby ( smile ) person. But when I think back to incidences in my past, what I considered to be NORMAL it's turning my stomach! Standing against a wall and having a boy come over and pull my top down to have a look and thinking this is just boys being boys!

I grew up from my teens through my twenties putting on this act all the time. The "man-eater" the "flirt" just being someone who appeared sexually available I guess because from my young teens, when I developed and got all this unwanted attention I felt like this was the role handed to me!

It's so, so sad. I have sons and a daughter and I hope to God they ALL know boundaries, standards and just respect! Because I think, as umcomfortable as it makes me, that as far as feminism has come, boys still grow up thinking that a girl's body is freely available.

PosiesOfPoison Tue 25-Oct-11 17:45:21

Mrs tired, I was very confident and thought that I was very attractive but it was still important for me to be liked by men, always.

Wooooooooooooooppity Tue 25-Oct-11 17:48:00

I can't see that site either mim and I'm not remotely surprised by the sentiments on it.

Basically, men who rape women want to pretend that they didn't. Which is why the "she regretted it" myth exists in the first place. It lets them off the hook. It stops them having to ask themselves questions - like why does she "regret" it? Because she didn't want it in the first place? So what were you doing penetrating her, if you weren't checking throughout that that's what she wanted?

Men don't want to ask themselves that, because the answer is uncomfortable. So instead, they pretend that women are these silly hysterical creatures, almost a different species from them in their inability to act rationally and be logical, who don't know their own minds. That is a very strong cultural stereotype of women and it was invented in order to justify rape and other abuse. Anyone who actually knows any women and isn't looking at them through misogynist glasses, doesn't recognise that characterisation of a woman because they don't know any like that. The reason being, is that they don't exist, they're a misogynist myth and anyone who claims that most of the women s/he knows are like that, is most likely a raging misogynist.

ImperialBlether Tue 25-Oct-11 17:51:37

Christ, mrstired, how the hell did he feel that that was something he could say to you with your parents there? Talk about a sense of entitlement!

ImperialBlether Tue 25-Oct-11 17:52:45

And to believe that your parents would pimp you out!

What did your parents say to him?

AnyPhantomFucker Tue 25-Oct-11 18:00:54

< reads and learns from woooopity's posts >

Another heartfelt belt of sympahty from me, for all those that have suffered the pain and indignity of being targeted just because you are a woman

mrstiredandconfused Tue 25-Oct-11 18:06:15

Thanks Posies - that has made me feel like I was less "at fault" for want of a better term sad

Imperial - they didn't need to say a word - he went very quiet and scuttled off with his tail between his legs very quickly. I don't think ANYONE (myself included) expected me to come out with that response because everyone knew what a quiet little wall-flower I was......

Wooooooooooooooppity Tue 25-Oct-11 18:37:29

Sorry I C&P'ed that last one from another thread by accident - I thought I'd posted it and got puzzled that I hadn't, so posted it here by accident - sorry if I"ve made anyone as confused as I am. grin

alice (long time passed now so epic x post) - i don't see how we can. it has to come from them wanting it, wanting the change. so either we believe that a core of decent, fully human men are going to stand up and offer a counter masculinity or it's fucked. because women are never going to rise up armed against men like oppressed groups with men in them were willing to do when the conditions were right.

men have to want this. now everyone talks about how their man is wonderful and lovely and evolved and etc etc well those lovely wonderful men need to step up. why don't they?

just to add to the voices who experienced sexual harassment from teachers - same as unfortunately.

sexual harassment from male teachers and sexual jealousy from some female teachers - massively confusing at the time seeing as i was a virgin and just didn't get it but pretty obvious looking back. i went from being the clever girl at primary with all the attention being on my ability to a whole different world at secondary where 'i' wasn't seen at all - a female was seen, supposedly pretty and sexual suddenly. took me a long time to really work out what happened at the time it was just massively confusing.

BumSexRules Tue 25-Oct-11 21:14:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Rollon2012 Tue 25-Oct-11 21:27:56

why do you mean by sexual jealously from female teachers swalloedfly? i'm just curious as to what that is. :/

jasper Tue 25-Oct-11 22:46:48

*I'm surprised (and saddened)that anyone thinks that groping etc. is typical behaviour and ignored by society in general.

Never experienced anything more than an odd comment from a stranger*

me too

KouklaWhooooo Wed 26-Oct-11 00:49:08

For the sake of my own dd I sincerely wish/hope that the doubters are right. But don't the sheer weight of stories on this thread say a bit different? I am not a natural 'victim' type (for want of a better phrase - not victim blaming at all) and I have never really been bullied, yet the more I think about this subject, the more examples of low level sexual assault I remember. I dismissed/minimised these at the time, but like the OP I am beginning to recognise them for what they are. Mostly at school age, shockingly. Oh plus an attempted rape by a friend of my boyfriend at Uni, but I didn't report that either.

Pinklila Wed 26-Oct-11 05:56:22

YANBU!!!!
I had very much the same. 28DD at 13, lewd comments from 20 somethings out of cars at 12. A LOT of lewd comment from very much older men continuing even now when at nearly 30 my former lecturer (who was making said comments) is old enough to be my father.
Gropings by strangers on the tube at 14, filthy comments by adults (that don't bear repeating) at 15, Mature students hitting on me at 16.
I can only look at what I went through as a teen an want to protect other teen/preteen girls going through the same thing.
This is why a lot of women think men are bastards.

aliceliddell Wed 26-Oct-11 17:20:21

At the risk of getting into a fruitless argument about the origin of women's oppression, SaF's point is quite possibly the main thing to need debate. What role can we realistically expect right-on Lefty Boy to play in our struggle? I have a semi-house trained example at home and have no objection to using him as a Random Sample for purposes of close questioning. This strategy does lead us into the (potentially very uncomfortable) territory of the left groups, which as many of us have found have a somewhat superficial commitment to fighting sexism. But where else do we get the opportunity to put organised pressure on?

Wooooooooooooooppity Wed 26-Oct-11 19:31:43

I think we know what role right-on LeftyBoy plays in our struggle Alice - he tells us that come the revolution, we'll be allowed to make the tea.

<Struggles with cynicism>

<Shags Tory>

no tory shagging surely!?

thinks aren't that bad yet are they?

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 00:26:50

I am very sleep deprived, but have been following this at a distance...anyone tell me off hand when the OP last posted.

Would hate to think that a few IPOAT (thanks Hecate) had driven her away.

There is so much wisdom in among the Misogny....

spiderslegs Thu 27-Oct-11 02:06:19

Aaarrggh

Just lost a large post

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 02:30:56

Do it again Spider,

spiderslegs Thu 27-Oct-11 02:38:24

Duck 'The most worrying and sad post on this whole thread for me is the woman who finds it sick that men have called her daughter beautiful. I would hope this little girl doesn't grow up with a distrust and fear of 50% of the worlds population for her own sake.'

That was me - I stand by it, I didn't say sick though - I said it made me feel ill (& sad) that many, many men had only that to say about my daughter, the women who comment upon her are more thrilled by her bike riding abilities or her big fat fuck off insouciant manner.

My son is more beautiful but no women beat their doors down to tell me lovely he is.

Low level sexual shit seems to be accepted, Verbal crap when you're pubescent - natural

Grope her tits when she's 14 - that's what you do.

Spunk on her back in a club - you're off your tits - fine

Gets worse though;

'Bit of a' date-rape in your early 20s - pph - everyone does it - she was there

Infidelity - some whore's fault

Marital rape - she's mine - surely?

& then & then...?

I speak as a woman who has experienced all of the above, on to my second marriage with a wonderful man, have a fantastic father & brothers, NO reason I should have taken any of this as 'natural', I actually love & adore many men, however - MANY are complete fuckers.

It saddens me that those that are, home in on my daughter & she will have to fight them off all her life.

spiderslegs Thu 27-Oct-11 02:43:58

It also saddens me that women would say 'she's not that great - cute - but maybe'

What the fuck is that about?

I'm not bigging up my three year old to make myself feel better. Are you seriously suggesting I am?

I have told the truth as it happens.

Women, please.

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 02:44:42

Oh Spiders....sort of get you. My 13 yr old dd is beautiful, and I am glad she is so good-looking, but I worry she will attract the wankers, like I did.

If people are just saying she is beautiful, IMO that is fine. People say it about my daughter, and they are mostly women..did have one experience of someone who is locally suspected, but never convicted of being a paedophile commenting and that was quite different. Unfortunately, he said it through his elderly aunt, who I think is completeley unaware of what a prick he is.

What do you say to people in this situation? I need to think about how i approach it if it happens again.

spiderslegs Thu 27-Oct-11 02:58:03

AHH Parsley - I don't think they're paedophiles, I really don't, I just think they're idiots who think the greatest attainment for a woman is beauty, ergo, all they ever comment upon is her looks, & their behaviour reflects that.

To them that is all we can & will be.

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 03:10:32

Ok. Have pm'd you.

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 03:17:04

Anyone know when the op posted last, roughly?
worried the idiots have sent her running....
Pippa you ok?

coldwed Thu 27-Oct-11 03:17:47

roll eyes

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 03:18:53

Uh?

spiderslegs Thu 27-Oct-11 03:25:41

Roll eyes

?

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 03:28:44

Not just me then....no idea what it means, but it is half term...

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 27-Oct-11 07:11:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 07:13:18

Good Stewie....worried that the Handmaidens of the Patriarchy or IPOAT had her running for the hills.Can you let us know she's ok, maybe pm if she doesn;t want it on here?

woollyideas Thu 27-Oct-11 08:43:20

WTF is IPOAT please? (sorry, off topic, but it's bugging me...)

ParsleyTheLioness Thu 27-Oct-11 08:49:59

Idiots posting on a thread. Care of Hecate I think...

woollyideas Thu 27-Oct-11 08:52:41

Oh, thanks! There have been a couple on this thread.

MarshaBrady Thu 27-Oct-11 08:54:28

Ds2 does get told he is beautiful by men and women. He is two. I think it's kind and nice. And lucky him to be attractive to others.

I don't have a daughter yet so can't compare.

I'm fine, thank you for your concern Parsley and everyone else. I just felt I didn't have much more to add now really.

PosiesOfPoison Thu 27-Oct-11 09:35:50

If you look at that recent Vogue shoot (french Vogue)here you will see that what spiderlegs is alluding to is spot on. You can see where she's coming from.

I have rather beautiful children, who doesn't?, my oldest DS is told as often as my DD that he's gorgeous. He's been scouted to model. But it means much more to my dd, she much more preoccupied with her looks. And ds isn't only told he's gorgeous, it's never the first thing.