10 Tips to Prevent Rape

(680 Posts)
coldwed Wed 19-Oct-11 09:43:28
Hassled Wed 19-Oct-11 09:45:15

Absolutely grin

witchwithallthetrimmings Wed 19-Oct-11 09:46:33

wine - means like

Hatwoman Wed 19-Oct-11 09:46:55

very good

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 09:49:27

great stuff!

whatsallthehullaballoo Wed 19-Oct-11 09:50:33

Slightly disturbing that people have to be 'reminded' that they should not rape.
I think it trivialises rape - making sound like a 'slip-up' not a heinous crime...

rhondajean Wed 19-Oct-11 09:51:06

Isnt it just a bit patronising to the 99.9 percent of men who arent sexual predators though?

I get what its trying to do, and laud the sentiment, but something doesnt sit right with me sorry.

MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll Wed 19-Oct-11 09:53:00

rhonda no more so than the multitude of leaflets out there advising the 100% of women who don't invite rape, on how to avoid it.

Whatmeworry Wed 19-Oct-11 09:53:48

Ah yes, all men are rapists aren't they?

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 09:54:51

Brilliant!

I used to get really cross at those posters on the backs of toilet doors in the ladies at SLug and Lettuce type places, telling you not to get so wankered that you end up in a gutter laying yourself open to rape. I bet there weren't any posters in the men's, telling you not to get so wankered that you rape someone.

Love it.

MarthasHarbour Wed 19-Oct-11 09:55:17

dear god

witchwithallthetrimmings Wed 19-Oct-11 09:58:17

is it is just making the obvious point that it should not be about women protecting themselves from rape but getting rapists not to rape.

MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll Wed 19-Oct-11 10:00:30

whatme no....but neither should women be forced indoors at certain times of the day just because SOME men are.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:01:43

I don't think it's meant to be an actual leaflet that gets handed out, more a thought-provoking satire.

rhondajean Wed 19-Oct-11 10:03:06

Get you mumbling but I find them offensive too. Theres something wrong with that leaflet, cant put my finger on it right now, I think I might be taking a migraine, but it will come to me later.

MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll Wed 19-Oct-11 10:06:03

Is it just that it's an agressive way of pointing out a bitter fact Rhonda?

MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll Wed 19-Oct-11 10:06:42

Think most people get that Elaine

rockboobs Wed 19-Oct-11 10:06:58

Great! - I was pre-emptorily tutting (if thats even a word) thinking it was going to be another, "Don't wear short skirts or go out at night" style warning aimed at
women to be 'more careful' but this is fantastic, it should be printed on every bottle and can of lager.

PosiesOfPoison Wed 19-Oct-11 10:07:04

It's ironic, a protest to the police advice to stay indoors.

Jesus Christ people, get a grip.

BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead Wed 19-Oct-11 10:07:19

Love it.

My DH informs me that there genuinely are posters in mens loos in pubs reminding them not to rape.... hmm

springydaffs Wed 19-Oct-11 10:07:38

BRILLIANT!

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:07:40

mumbling - not if you read the comments below the leaflet on the link, they don't!

The only thing I don't like about this is the use of exclamation marks, which I think makes it sound too much like a joke. Other than that I think it's brilliant.

cakeoclock Wed 19-Oct-11 10:09:05

I love it. It's not seriously aimed at ALL men, it is poking fun at all the advice for women on how to avoid getting raped in a thought provoking way. The point it is making is, it shouldn't be up to the woman to 'avoid' rape, the rapist is the one who shouldn't do it.

rhondajean Wed 19-Oct-11 10:10:07

I dont think its agressive, I think its jokey, mibbe thats what I dont like - will report back when I figure it out coherently!

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:10:30

It reminds me of a joke article in Viz about hidden cameras to catch lorry drivers murdering women - they quoted these lorry drivers saying it was a stealth tax etc, and that if the cameras were in full view you could just stop murdering the woman, but hiding them was unfair.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:11:27

It is not patronising of the vast majority of men who are not rapists.

It is a satire on those (men and women) who still think of rape in terms of something the woman should be doing something about. They should feel patronised. A man who does not voice those sentiments has no reason to feel the leaflet applies to him.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:12:49

Does anyone seriously believe that a man who rapes will read this and actually take any notice of it, or that it will make a potential rapist think twice and decide he wont rape?

Everyone knows that murder is wrong, but it doesnt stop it from happening.

Domestic Abuse is wrong, but that doesnt stop it happening.

MumblingAndBloodyRagDoll Wed 19-Oct-11 10:13:55

Yes..maybe the exclamation marks make it a bit too jokey...but that could be a choice to make it not appear to earnest.

Elaine....that site seems a bit hmm in general....a lot of the comment appear to be from teens or people who aren't very articulate.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:14:59

To be fair, squeaky's post suggests a similar misunderstanding.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:19:19

I am not misunderstanding it at all. It is a reversal of the advice given to women on how to protect themselves against potential rapists or putting themselves in unnecessary danger. Good advice as it happens.

However if anyone believes that it should be taken seriously in the way it has been written, and that it should be given out to men, and that men who rape will stop and take any notice, I would be very surprised.

NotJustClassic Wed 19-Oct-11 10:19:49

Must not read comments.
Must not read comments.

Holy shit. More 'I'm a mother and I tell my girls not to walk alone crap'.

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 10:20:51

I approve - it's a direct counter attack to all the 'don't wear short skirts, don't go out without a male owner, don't drink' advice.
And it puts the blame where it lies - on the rapist.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:20:53

squeaky, the point of the leaflet is not to influence rapists to stop raping- that is clearly not going to happen

it is meant to influence the rest of society to think twice before they assume it is the woman's fault:

to influence the judge who might give a lenient sentence "because with a skirt like that/being out late at night she was clearlyt asking for it/he couldn't help himself"

to influence the policeman who might be interviewing a woman bringing a charge of rape

to influence the flatmates/other people at the party who don't interfere to stop a potential rape

to influence the workmates who speak around young men as if you really did not have the alternative of keeping it in your trousers

I think the point is that women shouldn't be given advice on how to "avoid" being raped as it's never their fault and the onus should never be on them. Rather than having the culture of blaming the woman or thinking that if the women had only done x instead then she wouldn't have been raped it's putting the blame sqaurely, and rightly, at the man's feet.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:24:22

It's not meant as advice to men, and I don't think anyone does think that.
It's meant to make people think twice about advising women on how to stop themselves getting raped.
The target is the people who put that sort of advice out - not rapists.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:26:18

and -to digress slightly- though wife battery and child battery are still deplorably high there is good reason to believe they are a lot less common than in, say, the 17th century when both these practices were regarded as perfectly reasonable practices

it has made a difference that most people are aware that this is no longer accepted mainstream thinking

I would believe it would make a difference to the prevalence of rape if there was a general acceptance that rape is the fault of the rapist and nobody else

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:30:17

It is never a womans fault that she is raped, but (and I know this can be a very contentious point on here), women can and should do what they can to keep themselves safe from some of the risks.

Yes, in an ideal world anyone should be safe to walk where they like, when they like, but this is not a perfect world, and it is common sense to be aware of the dangers and do what you can to prevent it happening.

If a woman was walking on her own, late at night, down an unlit street, in high heels, quite drunk... no, she wasnt asking to be raped, but she is certainly guilty of putting herself at risk. She doesnt deserve to be raped, she should be able to do this, and I am not saying for one moment that her rapist should have any leniency whatsoever for what he has done.. what I am saying is, the woman in this example could have prevented what happened to her, if she had not put herself in danger. To ignore what is basic sensible advice because you are arrogant about your rights is foolish.

And before we get into the realms of rape by strangers only accounts for a small number of cases, and in most cases the rapist is known to the victim, I am aware of that, and that is a different scenario.

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 10:31:06

It's ace

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 10:32:24

It's never a woman's fault that she is raped BUT...

<sarcastic round of applause>

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:34:48

Squeaky, if a man goes walking late at night and gets mugged is he equally guilty of putting himself at risk? He could have prevented that happening by staying indoors and watching television. Or does this only apply to women?

Andrewofgg Wed 19-Oct-11 10:34:53

As one of those on this thread who of necessity uses men's loos for the purpose for which they are intended: I've never seen posters there advising us not to commit rape. I've occasionally seen them advising us not to commit DV.

Well, I suppose if here and there it puts one man off doing either who otherwise would it does no harm.

In fact the commonest form of male-specific poster in men's loos, if anyone is curious to know, is the ones which advise us to take urinary problems seriously and see the doctor if we have concerns. Unfortunately that too is often ignored . . .

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 10:35:21

"I get what its trying to do, and laud the sentiment, but something doesnt sit right with me sorry."

It attempts to paint men as somehow accepting of rape. As thought hey just cant help themselves and dont realise its bad.

Militant claptrap of the highest order and not helpful.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:36:14

But I think it's actually dangerous to pretend that rape is a thing the victim can and should prevent.

Walking down an unlit alley in heels and drunk is unwise for any number of reasons (you might stumble and not be found, for example). But you are not 'guilty' of putting yourself in the way of a rapist if you do so.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:36:20

lassylass, it portrays society as accepting of rape

which imho is not too far off

Andrewofgg Wed 19-Oct-11 10:36:27

And cory has a valid point. I'm not young, I'm of slight physique, and I wear glasses. I have a responsibility to consider where I go and when I go there if I prefer not to be mugged. Don't I?

PosiesOfPoison Wed 19-Oct-11 10:36:32

Squeaky, I'd agree with you except for the fact that stranger rape is not common....being raped by someone you know is far more likely.

TotemPole Wed 19-Oct-11 10:38:15

cory, if he walked on his own, on a dark street, in an area known for mugging, then yes he would have put himself in a vulnerable position. If he gets mugged, it's still the mugger's fault.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:39:38

How about you put the full sentence I wrote in your quote Shirley, instead of twisting it to suit your agenda.

Would anyone advise their daughters to behave as they wanted, because "dont worry, if you get raped, it is not your fault"... bollocks to that, I would rather my daughters were not raped, and that they are sensible enough to do what they can to ensure their own personal safety wherever possible.

If that means paying attention to advice about not walking on their own at night, not taking drinks from strangers etc, then I want them to pay heed to that, and be aware of the dangers.

MissAnneThrope Wed 19-Oct-11 10:39:40

"If a man was walking on his own, late at night, down an unlit street, wearing unlaced trainers, quite drunk... he is certainly guilty of putting himself at risk of violent assault."
<massive eyeroll>

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 10:40:08

"lassylass, it portrays society as accepting of rape

which imho is not too far off"

Like I said. Militant claptrap.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:42:20

Has anyone ever heard of a barrister trying to argue that a mugger should get a more lenient sentence because his male victim was of slight build, wearing glasses and walking down a dark alley, hence evidently deliberately putting himself at risk?

Yet this kind of defence is regularly trotted out at trials of one kind of crime only: violent crimes against women.

LaWeasel Wed 19-Oct-11 10:43:26

I find that it's not often men who believe it's "the woman asked for it" but other women. (Obviously, apart from rapists, who certainly do seem to believe that.) Anytime I have discussed rape with men they have had a very clear line about what consent is, much more defined than women I have spoken too.

Which freaks me out a lot.

I think there should be more advertising aimed at women which emphasise what consent is.

shagmundfreud Wed 19-Oct-11 10:43:26

I think this is fantastic.

grin

"As thought hey just cant help themselves and dont realise its bad"

This is an argument frequently used by the defence in rape cases. The fact that lawyers will present arguments like this in an attempt to make the jury feel sympathy for their clients shows there is public tolerance for this viewpoint.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:44:20

No of course not, you fool, would anywone say 'don't worry, if you get raped it's not your fault'? Really?

Of course I would say that they should walk home along well lit streets and in company - but not because that will stop them getting raped. Yes, don't take drinks from strangers, yes get a taxi home, yes stay with other people - no to 'don't wear that, you're laying yourself open to being raped'.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:45:07

Just because it is trotted out as defence does not make it believable, and it shouldnt be allowed in defence, I have no argument with that, my point is that I cannot see why women should not be encouraged to do all they can to help themselves be safe in the first place.

Surely by taking care of their own safety, they are giving opportunist rapists less ability to offend.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:46:38

So people who get raped gave the rapists 'ability to offend'? And it is possible to take away that ability, is it?

OchAyeTheNooPal Wed 19-Oct-11 10:46:53

I'm not keen on it apart from the last point which is simply do not rape. I get it but don't like it.

Also It's concentrating on stranger rape when isn't it more likely that a rapist is someone known to the victim?

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:47:27

Please do not call me a fool Elaine, as that is something which I am certainly not, nor have I lowered myself to personal namecalling either.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:48:05

I would warn my daughter to be careful about where she goes and with whom. I will also warn my son- there are plenty of ways in which men can think of their safety too.

But if anything ever happens I would still expect the blame to be put on the perpetrator, not the victim- and I would not want to feel that it made a difference whether it was my son beaten up by a robber or my daughter raped by a stranger.

Andrewofgg Wed 19-Oct-11 10:48:12

shagmundfreud Any counsel who said that would get shot down in flames and the judge would tell the jury s/he (often she) was wrong.

LaWeasel since juries are usually 4/8, 5/7, or 6/6 and it take at least ten to convict you are obviously right and if that freaks you are out we are both in good company.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 10:48:36

Wow...

Squeaky, I used to work in the pubs, long before DS. If I didn't have enough in tips, I'd have to walk home. This involved walking home, alone, down an unlit street, usually in heels, sometimes a little tipsy if I'd had a drink or two after work.

What was I supposed to do, camp out on the bosses floor?

FWIW, I went through a stage where I refused to take lifts off male friends. This was as a result of a "friend" who offered me a lift home one evening. I took up his offer, thinking "ohhh, its someone I know, I'll be safe". He tried to grope me, and had it not been for my phone ringing (I'm still sure my ex is psychic, btw) I'm not sure what would have happened.

And let's not start on the fact that over 80% of rapes are carried out by someone the victim knows.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:50:03

Well it is bloody foolish to think that those of us who don't think it's the woman's job to not get raped would tell our daughters 'don't worry if you get raped'.

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 10:50:30

Barristers will say whatever the hell they want to get their clients off.

It doesnt reflect 'society'.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:50:36

I think this leaflet is intended to make people think- why do we, as a society, in our court system, in the press, treat one kind of violent kind against the person as different from another kind of violent crime against the person, and why does this difference seem to be dependent on sex?

Why will a barrister defending a person on a rape charge do his best to attack the morality of the victim and feel this is a profitable course, when this is far less likely to happen with a victim of non-sexual violence, robbery or fraud?

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:51:11

Elaine, if a stranger rapist is lurking down an unlit street near a nightclub, waiting for a lone woman to walk down there, and all the women have avoided the area, got cabs, stayed with their mates, then yes, it has removed his ability to attack anyone. Quite simple really. If the opportunity is not there, then he cannot rape.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 10:51:22

Also, squeaky...

Both of my rapists raped me in my own home.

Should us women just avoid the company of men, just to be on the safe side? hmm

I mean, after all... We don't know who's a rapist, and who's not. And we need to protect ourselves...

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:52:04

Barristers aren't fools, they won't say "whatever", they will say "whatever they think might sway it with the jury". And the jury are ordinary peope, they are society.

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 10:53:19

Squeaky: the determined rapist will then go and break into a house and rape a woman.

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 10:53:23

No thanks squeaky. The reason I cut off the rest of your sentance is kind of the point.

The point is that it shouldn't be the case that we, as women, are required to "protect" ourselves from rape (or find ourselves being subject to some kind of "she was asking for it" bullshit) rather the onus should be on men not to fucking well do it - or face some actual serious consequences rather than the joke sentences they currently receive.

Complicated and militant stuff eh?

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 10:53:52

Is the stranger rapist shackled to the unlit street, then?
And the women in the taxis are now at no risk from ever being raped by anyone else?

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:54:15

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:51:11
"Elaine, if a stranger rapist is lurking down an unlit street near a nightclub, waiting for a lone woman to walk down there, and all the women have avoided the area, got cabs, stayed with their mates, then yes, it has removed his ability to attack anyone. Quite simple really. If the opportunity is not there, then he cannot rape."

Don't you think after he has lurked down this particular alley for a new nights with no success that he might try a different tack? Maybe targetting women he knows, who have no reason to mistrust him? Or do you think he will give up and lead a virtuous life ever after?

Andrewofgg Wed 19-Oct-11 10:54:20

No lassylass they cannot say whatever the hell they want but the ethics of the Bar is too big a subject for a MN post.

But there is one exclusively male section of society which regularly makes its view of rape clear: namely the inmates of male prisons. And they don't like it. They like it even less if the victim was a child but men who have raped adults get a hard time too.

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 10:54:26

Does it sway the Jury Cory?

Do you have any evidence of this?

Or is it just grandstanding militant claptrap?

Fecklessdizzy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:54:40

grin Irony is power ... Blokes! Keep it zipped as a knee in the groin can cause offense.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 10:55:25
cory Wed 19-Oct-11 10:56:05

cross-posts with Elaine. I had visions of this rapist as some kind of Polyphemus like monster who never ventures far from his cave. Whereas in actual fact a rapist is likely to be a perfectly ordinary person, with a perfectly ordinary appearance, maybe a perfectly ordinary job, who just happens to have a screwed attitude towards women.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 10:57:14

ffs, of course the onus should be on men NOT to do it, but that is never going to happen, is it. Rapists are sick in the head, and will not stop just because someone says they should. They only stop once they are caught and even then with the pathetic sentencing in this country, many are let out and go on to do it again.

frothy, I did make it quite clear in my post that I was referring to just one scenario, and that it was of stranger rapes in public places.

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 10:58:14

Oh lassylass, why don't you try actually arguing and debating rather than just shouting "militant" every two minutes? It's rather trying.

worraliberty Wed 19-Oct-11 10:58:47

For goodness sake I can't see why Squeaky's posts are being picked on here...she makes perfect sense!

In an ideal world, no-one would rape anyone but it's not an ideal world...therefore we owe it to our children (both male and female) to be taught to look after themselves and not put themselves in a dangerous situation.

Motorists shouldn't speed up at zebra crossings but some of them do...therefore you teach your children not to just 'walk out' in the blind hope someone won't break the law.

It's called helping to protect them!

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 10:59:39

x posted with squeaky - again.

No need for the FFS. Right, so what you're saying is that this is the way it is and we shouldn't try to change people's attitudes to rape. THat we shouldn't try to get people to stop victim blaming? Nope, sorry, can't agree.

NotJustClassic Wed 19-Oct-11 11:00:40

Thing is with the 'don't walk home alone' advice, it could actually be MORE dangerous to get a friend of a friend to walk you back from a party.

squeaky The poster is not targetted at rapists.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Wed 19-Oct-11 11:01:44

So if a man chooses to walk alone at night and he is violently attacked he was not to blame but put himself at risk?

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:02:03

You teach children to look both ways for traffic, and you teach them not to walk out without looking. You teach them that a car might be coming quickly round a corner that you can't see. You don't teach them that, although it's a shame that some drivers drive badly, this can happen, and so they should never step into a road even if it appears ok.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 11:02:37

Actually, as much as I'd like to agree that rapists are sick in the head, a lot of them aren't...

And why should one rape be treated differently to another, just because the woman decided she had as much right to walk home, alone, (maybe even drunk) as her male friend did the night before?

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 11:05:02

"Motorists shouldn't speed up at zebra crossings but some of them do...therefore you teach your children not to just 'walk out' in the blind hope someone won't break the law."

So how do people feel about the campaign "Kill your speed, not a child"?

Pointless? Militant? Ridiculous and we should only be educating children not to run out, not educating/pressurizing drivers not to speed?

kelly2000 Wed 19-Oct-11 11:05:53

The only people I have ever heard imply that all men are rapists is men themselves. For instance a tory MEP claimed that if a woman slept in the same bed as a man she was partly to blame if he raped her, if that is not saying that women should treat all men even men they trust as rapists what is. Considering most rapes happen in marriage or long term relationships, it is especially bad. It is funny how people like that to to imply rape victims are asking for it and are teasing men and say they should help themselves to not get raped, yet on the other hand harp on about marriage being the bedrock of society despite thethis fact

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 11:05:58

No Shirley, I am not saying that. I am saying that the posters and advice for women, that may help them to protect themselves from possible danger should not be ignored, mocked, or ridiculed simply because "it is never the womans fault".

We should ensure that women respect their own safety first and foremost because that is something that as women, (and men, because men get raped too), we can do.

We cannot stop rapists. They are not going to suddenly stop in their tracks and think "oh dear, I shouldnt be doing this, it is wrong". They will always exist, no matter how much society wishes they didnt. But what we can do is try to protect ourselves from being in a situation where they can do it.

I will repeat myself again here, I am referring to women who get raped by strangers. Not women who are raped by people they know, at home, at work, or by people who they trusted. Strangers. They may be a minority of cases, but surely one case is one too many.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 11:06:16

Some rapists no doubt are "sick in the head" to the point where they wouldn't be able to stop themselves whatever the attitude of the people around them.

These men need long hard sentences- and they need judges prepared to dish those out without accepting any mitigation "because he thought she wanted it really".

Other men might be able to stop themselves if they really, seriously became convinced that what they were doing was rape and that this was wrong. There is plenty of evidence that more men commit rape in societies where this is condoned, e.g. in slave owning societies and societies at war; also, that there are men who do not view rape of an inferior woman (e.g. a slave woman or a prostitute or a prisoner or a woman of different race) as "real rape", though the same men would be never dream of raping a different kind of woman.

These are men who could restrain themselves if they became convinced that what they were doing was wrong in the eyes of other men. What they need is a society that speaks out loud and clear against all kinds of sexual violence.

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 11:06:43

Debating what? That society is accepting of rape?

Theres nothing to debate because its bullshit.

Rape is bad. Yes everyone gets it except the rapists. But they make up a tiny tiny fraction of the population.

Should prison terms go up? Yes. Should we push to increase the conviction rate? Yes.

Should moronic images that paint all men as not being able to help themselves when the opportunity to rape comes along be laughed off the board? Yes.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:08:35

why have you put 'it is not their fault' in inverted commas?

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:09:06

Lassylass, that is NOT what the leaflet is saying.
You know satire, right?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 11:09:37

So, Squeaky. Should I be telling my (male) best friends that they shouldn't be out alone after dark, or shouldn't wear tight trousers "cos that's asking for it", or they should carry a rape alarm, or to avoid dark alleyways.

Talking of which, my house can only be accessed via an unlit passage. Should I just avoid going home if it's dark? grin

NotJustClassic Wed 19-Oct-11 11:10:02

Focussing on the tiny minority of stranger-rape cases can lead to misunderstanding of what rape is, and lead to victim blaming in the case of the majority of rapes which are not carried out by strangers.

The difficulty is, it's terrifying to think that actually, it's impossible to protect against all rape unless women avoid all male company.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Wed 19-Oct-11 11:11:37

Lassylass on a thread where the OP thought her DH had paid for sex with a prostitute:

His money - within reason he can decide how to spend the excess once bills are paid at the end of the day. SAHM is a luxury, not a right. You want to call the financial shots, you need to earn the money.

Just in case anyone was thinking of spending their valuable time trying to introduce her to reason or logic.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:12:43

Thanks, puffin!

"all the women have avoided the area, got cabs, stayed with their mates, then yes, it has removed his ability to attack anyone."

So the streets after dark, which could be 5pm in winter, are only for the use of men only. Also mentioned was walking in high heels late at night presumably this mean they're a bad idea because the woman can't run.

I'm a little lost for words that anyone can think a women is to blame by going out after 5 and not being able to run away fast enough.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 11:14:16

To repeat: it is not a fact that rape is a never-changing constant which occurs at the same rate in all societies at all times.

There is plenty of evidence that the rape rate in a country is in proportion to societal attitudes to violence and more specifically towards women. In countries where rape is condoned, there is, unsuprisingly, more rape.

In other words, the argument "there is no point, we'll never stop it anyway" doesn't wash. Zero tolerance makes for a lower rape rate than high tolerance. And a lower rape rate, while not as good as no rape rate, is still a lot better than a high rape rate.

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 11:16:21

Yes, why is that in inverted comma's? It is never the woman's fault if she's raped. Never.

I think lassylass, you have a different idea of what is worthy of debate and what isn't to me.

Society isn't accepting of rape - just a bit more into victim blaming than I'd like. I'm hardly being contentious.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 11:17:22

even earlier in some places, Octopus.

I think my uni friends would have laughed if I insiisted on several of them walking me back to the childminders, getting the bus back to my town, walked me home, checked for monsters in the cupboard then heading back to the halls. grin

And I certainly wouldn't have afforded taxi fares on a daily basis...

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 11:17:56

ARGH! x posted wqith puffin. Fair play. grin

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:18:36

All women, and all people, know that some places are, or feel, safer than others. I feel less safe walking home alone late at night when the pavements are icy than I do in the middle of a shopping centre. This much is innate. And it's not rape I fear the most, but more generally assault or accidents.

But we don't need posters telling us not to do this. Most people don't, most of the time, if they can help it. All the posters do is to further the myth that rape is preventable, and that preventing it is a woman's responsibility.

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 11:26:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 11:28:02

This idea that rapists are somehow fixed, pre-destined beings who will rape regardless of context is as much a nonsense as the idea that criminals are fixed beings who could be identified in advance by the lumps on the heads.

South Africa has jaw-droppingly high rates of rape, with 25% of men admitting to having raped someone. This isn't because South African men are somehow different from the rest of the world, it's because rape is profoundly socially acceptable in that society (tho not to everyone, obviously).

Rapists are simply men who decide to rape.

And there are a lot of factors going into that decision, and permission-giving through myths that "the woman is responsible/deserved it/was asking for it" is a huge factor.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Wed 19-Oct-11 11:29:01

Tumbleweed

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 11:30:56

Blimey!

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 11:30:57

Youve gone? Fantastic.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:31:04

Why, have you fucked off all militantly, puffin?

Good post tianc.

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 11:31:52

You know in some countries they used to cut off the hands of a thief in ancient times ? To stop them stealing .

I think the only way to stop a rapist would be to remove his genitals and hands.

Disable the bastards...then they couldn`t rape , and everyone would know they were rapists and would avoid them.

Or at least tattoo rapist on their foreheads so they couldnt pretend they were "normal" men. It would make it harder for them to blend in < iykwim ?>.

Might stop them getting involved with women who are unaware of their nasty pasts too.
How many women get involved with such men , and have kids with them.
Only to find out about it years later when hes caught again after raping someone else ? Or if he rapes them ?

Unfortunately that`s a bit barbaric and against the rapist`s "human rights" .<so that`s never going to happen >.

A poster /leaflet is not really going to help stop them .Locking them up isnt going to stop them , they just do it again after they get out.

Rape is never the victims fault. Ever.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:32:53

Your last line is excellent, drove.

ThatsNotMyBabyBelly Wed 19-Oct-11 11:32:58

Many rapists do not view raping their partner a crime. They are not rapists, they are having sex with their partner and therefore it is acceptable. Consent, for them, is implied.

I think Andrew that many male prisoners would also be of this opinion. That a rapist who attacked a woman down an alley way on a dark night would be derided, but a man who had sex with his unwilling partner - well that is different surely?

This poster is designed to alter the attitude of society that a woman is responsible for not getting raped. Of course, woman need to be aware of danger, as all people do, but it is that underlying allowance that is given to the rapist that is being disussed in the leaflet.

Well he did rape her

but

she was on a date with him
she was drunk
she shouldn't have been in that area at night

it is these excuses that are accepted by the public that are being attacked

LaWeasel Wed 19-Oct-11 11:33:36

I don't think there should ever be rape avoidance advice for women, because although I get what squeaky is trying to say and I do think it is well intentioned, I think it is very often interpreted as "do these things and you will be safe" as well as "X didn't do these things and was raped, they could have avoided it and have some responsibility"

I don't think that is the intention of rape-avoidance advice AT ALL, but as has been spoked about before some people seem to have a strong psychological reaction to any advice like that in a self-protective way. AKA I will be safe and won't be raped because I am doing X,Y,Z. If anyone has been raped it's because they didn't do this and that makes them feel like they (or their children) are safer.

Anyway, what I think we should have is general advice for ALL people in vulnerable situations. So yes I will tell both my daughter AND my son when they get to clubbing age, make sure you stay in groups of at least 3, make sure someone has a phone with credit, look after anyone who drinks too much and make sure they get home safely etc. And hopefully they won't get mugged as much as anything else.

But way before they get to that age they will be getting very strict lessons on what consent is so that if they are ever in a situation where a friend comes to them saying "I asked my boyfriend to stop having sex halfway through because I was in pain and he wouldn't" they will never say "It's your fault, you shouldn't have started if you weren't going to let him finish/he couldn't help it/you were drunk you didn't know what you wanted it doesn't matter." and if god forbid they ever have something so awful happen to them they will have the confidence to come to me and hopefully the police too.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Wed 19-Oct-11 11:35:40

<polishes shiny militant badge>

Lio Wed 19-Oct-11 11:38:42

Thanks for posting this, coldwed, it's great to see something that takes a stand against the sort of wrongheaded thinking that has become normalised.

Whatmeworry Wed 19-Oct-11 11:45:09

My objection to this is the hypocrisy. I do find the poster amusing, but then I know so many of you will howl down T-shirt emblems, posters etc that use exactly the same amusement mechanism in ways you find unacceptable.

If this is OK, so are they, or neither are IYSWIM.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 11:46:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 11:49:24

If rape was an illness you would have to assume it is contagious to explain examples like South Africa.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 11:50:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 11:51:13

A little can be done by parents by teaching our sons to respect women ....ALL WOMEN, not just the nicely dresses demure ladies .

It might be the thing to get it ingrained in men`s heads to make sure the woman is consenting to sex before it starts . Ask them more than once, and do not touch her unless she says yes .

I have told my 11 year old son , as part of " the talk" , that its job as a man to ensure that his future partner is willing , and that if she is drunk , she is not legally allowed to give consent ...so he is never ever to attempt to sleep with drunk women. Why this isnt taught in schools, along with the mechanics of sex i dont know.

It wont stop the "jump out from an alley /stranger rapist" , but it might stop the date-rapist or partner-rapist , Especially if the message is also taught by the dads to their sons.

After all every rapist is somebodys son.

GoingToBeSick Wed 19-Oct-11 11:51:49

lassylass Wed 19-Oct-11 11:26:31
That would be a quote taken after the OP admitted she was being unreasonable and that he hadnt visited prostitutes after all?

I think you'll find the OP didnt say that before your incredibly insensitive and stupid comment, she didnt update about the situation until the next morning.

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 11:53:33

^^ wot SGM said. Especially last para.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 11:54:32

Stewie, I mean what you said: that most rapists rape because they can get away with it. In some cultures it is more acceptable, and there you will find a higher incidence of rape.

Maybe a small percentage are actual psychopaths who can't help themselves, but it's likely to be a small number.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:55:23

whatme - what 'amusement mechanism' is that? I think you're making a false analogy.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 11:57:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 11:58:46

Not getting too drunk and not walking home in the dark won't protect you from getting raped. The only thing that protects you from being raped is not being in the presence of a rapist

You are less likely to be in the presence of an opportunist attacker though.Rapists are not "sick in the head." The majority are perfectly sane and rape because they want to. Not because they have a mental illness. It is incredibly damaging to rape victims to spread about this myth. It also absolves rapists from culpability for rape.

Perhaps my phrase of "sick in the head" was not understood in the context I meant it. I certainly would think that anyone who rapes is not a normal balanced person. That does not mean they should be any less culpable or receive any less punishment. It simply means that nobody sane would want to, or would commit rape. It is not the act of a respectful, decent person, no matter how they may appear to others. If a person rapes, they are not sane as far as I am concerned. It doesnt mean I would afford them any leniency.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 11:59:37

But not being 'respectful, decent' does not equal 'insane'.

kelly2000 Wed 19-Oct-11 12:00:08

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1388963/Ken-Clarkes-rape-gaffe-Its-rape-victims-betrayed-system.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1389647/Ken-Clarke-rape-gaffe-Some-rapes-ARE-worse-others.html

I am sorry, but it is not true that only rapists think rape is wrong, there are plenty of people who will claim that non-consensual sex should not be a crime, that it is not rape, etc. It is all very well claiming you disagree with rape in one breath and in the next announcing that actually you do not think non-consensual sex is rape, and that actually it is a beating and abduction that constitutes rape not the non-consensual penetration of someone's body. When a newspaper columnists think it is acceptable to tell people that rape is not what you think it is, but is in fact non-consensual sex as if this is a huge revalation which should make us all stop in our tracks when pushing for longer punishments and less acceptance of rape, and there is not one peep of protest we have become too accepting of rape in our society.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 12:00:17

damn.. the bold bit went a bit wrong there... will redo so it makes more sense.

Not getting too drunk and not walking home in the dark won't protect you from getting raped. The only thing that protects you from being raped is not being in the presence of a rapist

You are less likely to be in the presence of an opportunist attacker though.

Rapists are not "sick in the head." The majority are perfectly sane and rape because they want to. Not because they have a mental illness. It is incredibly damaging to rape victims to spread about this myth. It also absolves rapists from culpability for rape.

Perhaps my phrase of "sick in the head" was not understood in the context I meant it. I certainly would think that anyone who rapes is not a normal balanced person. That does not mean they should be any less culpable or receive any less punishment. It simply means that nobody sane would want to, or would commit rape. It is not the act of a respectful, decent person, no matter how they may appear to others. If a person rapes, they are not sane as far as I am concerned. It doesnt mean I would afford them any leniency.

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 12:01:42

High number of rapes in south africa /africa is more to do with attitudes toward women . I think rape isnt viewed as a serious crime .

And there is that stupid widespread belief that having sex with a virgin will cure hiv ect... rapes are commited against young girls < i read somewhere >.

Educating the men against rape would be much better idea than educating women on how not to get raped.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 12:02:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Whatmeworry Wed 19-Oct-11 12:05:55

whatme - what 'amusement mechanism' is that? I think you're making a false analogy

In what way?

kelly2000 Wed 19-Oct-11 12:06:25

squeky,
If we went by your definition that rape is committed by the insane, no rapist would be punished as insanity is a defence, and if someone is found not-guilty by reason of insanity of a crime other than murder they are not required to be incarcerated. So by claiming only the insane rape (and insanity is a legal not a medical term which means not in control of ones actions) you are taking the blame from rapists. Plenty of rapists would not even consider themselves rapists, they just think they had sex without consent and do not think that is rape as they did not kidnap, struggle with, or inflict physical injuries on the victim.

limitedperiodonly Wed 19-Oct-11 12:07:28

squeaky this leaflet is aimed at people like you.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 12:07:29

I don't think the t-shirts you're talking about are satirical.

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 12:08:08

I would imagine you`d find rapists that are insane and those that are sane ,and some that have personality disorders .

It wont make much difference to a rape victim knowing whether her attacker was sane ,insane or disordered .

kelly2000 Wed 19-Oct-11 12:10:14

squeky,
Where are you getting the data thta makes you think that women who are alone in the dark are more likely to come across a rapist, than women in other situations. Lets face it if a rapist picks on someone he knows he has a greater chance of a not-guilty verdict by claiming she/he consented, if he picks on a complete stranger in the street he is less likely to be successful with that defence. It is in a rapist's favour to pick on someone he knows.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 12:12:08

Bored of keep having to repeat this now.

I have specifically stressed numerous times now, that I am referring ONLY to rape by strangers on other strangers. Not any other kind of scenario.

Is that clear enough?

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 12:13:16

Yeah, both reporting and admission are socially determined, even in the context of anonymous surveys rather than to the police, so there's bound to be some impact on the statistics.

But fundamentally I don't believe South Africa (and all southern Africa) has the same rape incidence as the UK. Another study showed that, in a study size of 4000 South African women, a third had been raped within the last year.

And I remember a case in a neighbouring country where a man convicted of raping a five-year-old was given a two-year suspended sentence "because it was a first offence".

I mean, I'm not keen on lynch mobs in reality. But I quite like living in a country where the gut reaction to someone who rapes children is to go after them with pitchforks.

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 12:13:48

kelly2000 . " plenty of rapists would not consider themselves rapists , they just think they had sex without consent "

this is why we parents NEED to ingrain in our sons heads that they must always ask for consent , they must always double check that their partner is willing to participate in sex and they must never ever have sex with a drunk woman.

If we teach our sons its wrong , then they will know without a doubt its wrong.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 12:16:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 12:18:53

tell you what then, why don't we ban men from going out in the dark!

problem sloved hmm

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 12:20:12

*solved even

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 12:21:48

blackoutthesun , wouldnt work . not every rapist stikes at sundown ....they are not vampires ...hmm

AyeScream Wed 19-Oct-11 12:21:50

It's such a shame that Just World-ers still exist in seemingly large numbers. And yes, this poster is for them. Not for the rapists, although I am sure there is some overlap.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 12:22:10

If someone is capable of understanding that rape is wrong, but then still rapes, despite knowing that what they are doing is wrong, they may be "sane", but they are not what I would call a decent person. I would say they are sick in the head. They certainly are not normal if they think it is ok for them to rape someone else. They dont have the emotions that a normal person would have, because they are incapable of treating a fellow human being with respect.

minimisschief Wed 19-Oct-11 12:22:13

haha cheered me up

Whatmeworry Wed 19-Oct-11 12:22:28

I don't think the t-shirts you're talking about are satirical

That's because you don't like what they satirise, whereas you do like what this is satirising grin

Now me, I'd prefer scathing satire going all ways, as that knocks all pedestals away.

But IMO sometimes you have to look at your own side's stuff and say "you know what - thats very funny, but I hate it when they do that to us, so lets not do it too"

But that's just my pov smile

MrSpoc Wed 19-Oct-11 12:24:17

As a man i read the leaflet and just saw it as a joke, twist on the very good advice given to women.

In an ideal world people should be able to walk where they like, naked, holding a gold bar and the latest Iphone without feeling intimidated or threat of violance, rape, murder etc.

But as squeky quit rightly pointed out until we reach this eutopia we all need to look after our own personal safety.

The advice given is no different to what police give about burglaries, robberies etc.

The Rapist is always wrong but if you heed the advice then Rape will be less frequent.

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 12:25:18

blackoutthesun , wouldnt work . not every rapist stikes at sundown ....they are not vampires ...

sorry didn't make myself clear blush

that was to the people who think that women shouldn't be out alone after dark

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 12:25:20

Which t-shirts are you thinking about, and what are they satirising?

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 12:25:55

squeaky ...i think the term your looking for is sociopath/psycopath ?

<personality disorder>

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 12:26:35

And no, I don't like what this is satirising - that's sort of the point!

Your post does seem further to suggest that you're not too clear on what satire is.

DroveABroomstick Wed 19-Oct-11 12:29:51

blackout , sorry i didnt get what you ment ,
Im not very good at "getting" sarcasm iykwim

<apologises>

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 12:33:06

no its ok

like i said i didn't make myself clear smile

heleninahandcart Wed 19-Oct-11 12:43:51

I'm of slight physique, and I wear glasses

Andrewofgg I support a man's right to wear glasses in the street grin

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 12:47:51

It's difficult to know what Whatmeworry is talking about without examples, but in general satire is a high risk strategy if there is any chance it being taken straight. So those vile "Nice girlfriend what breed is she" T-shirts are likely to be worn by people who actually think that's a cool thing to say straight. <yuk>

But this Stop Rape leaflet can very safely be taken straight. If you follow the advice, you won't rape anyone.

The humour comes from the unexpectedness of warning men instead of warning women, not from saying something which is the opposite of what you actually mean.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 12:52:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotJustClassic Wed 19-Oct-11 12:56:59

Thanks SGM

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 13:03:26

I am not sure where you have copied that from, and would agree with most of it..

however

Myth Women make up stories about being raped.

Sadly, it is not a myth, and it does happen.

Myth Do not go out alone at any time. Women are most likely to be raped outside, in dark alleyways late at night. This is the best way for a woman to protect herself.

Is not a myth as such. Sorry, but it really is not. As the article goes on to say

However, only 9% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'.

More than 80% of rapes are committed by known men

Apart from the fact that there seems to be a missing 11% there, that is still 9% too many that MAY have been avoided.

How many rapes go unreported? I know of at least 2, and would imagine there are a hell of a lot more, because the woman was raped by a stranger, and knows that she could not identify her attacker, or may not be believed, or just cant face the hell of going to the police and just wants to shut it off (not that I imagine you ever could), or blames herself for it happening.

There are probably many more unreported rapes committed by men who the woman does know.

Figures relating to rape are probably one of the most unreliable that you can get because rape is something that is so personal to the victim that many can not face reporting it.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 13:03:57

Good post SGM

In fact, it is not that rare to read of pensioners raped in their homes in the course of a burglary. One may assume they were not sitting there wearing provocative clothing. hmm

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 13:07:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

moonshineandspellbooks Wed 19-Oct-11 13:08:18

People make up stories about being burgled/having their car stolen/making a claim on the insurance, etc. No one takes that as a good enough reason to assume that most victims of crime are lying. The default position is still to assume the victim is telling the truth and try to find enough evidence to find the perpetrator.

AyeScream Wed 19-Oct-11 13:09:17

Squeakyfreakytoy, do you think that a rape victim might think twice about reporting, in case people like you (who believe that contributory negligence plays a part in rape cases) might be in the police, the judiciary or on a jury?

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 13:10:08

SGM I would 100% agree with the tattooing of the word rapist on their foreheads. Sadly cant see it happening, but it would be ideal.

gotolder Wed 19-Oct-11 13:11:29

Love it.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 13:12:26

Ayescream, dont you think that I may have thought twice about it myself.

Dont you think I might be aware that my own contributory negligence could have been something I have thought about many times.

You dont know me. I have reasons for my views, and I am entitled to voice those opinions.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 13:12:59

Somebody said something sensible earlier on about the psychology of thinking about rape, the need to tell ourselves that this couldn't happen to me because I am not behaving like the rape victim.

Which in view of what we know about actual rape is total nonsense: people get raped in daylight, teetotallers get raped, people get raped by their bosses, they get raped by a relative, they get raped by their partners, they get raped in their homes, they get raped whilst wearing sensible footwear from Clarks.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 13:14:41

"Myth Women make up stories about being raped.

Sadly, it is not a myth, and it does happen."

What moonshine said. People frequently make up stories about having been burgled or driven into or defrauded or mugged.

AyeScream Wed 19-Oct-11 13:16:04

It wasn't your fault, squeaky. No need to be hard on yourself or others who have been the victim of someone else's criminal behaviour. Really, really, really no need.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 13:16:12

Tattooing 'rapist' on foreheads would only tell you who was a convicted rapist, though.

Apart from being a tad medieval.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 13:17:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 13:17:54

YY Cory. The thing that really grinds my gears (well, one of the things) is that rape is about sex. It fucking ain't.

Rapists don't give a shit if you're wearing a short skirt or an Edwardian bustle.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 13:18:06

SGM, I assumed it was when you said it, but it has been suggested a few times on the thread.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 13:19:08

My brother was mugged in the local shopping mall. If he hadn't been there it naturally wouldn't have happened. But I don't get the sense that he blames himself. Perhaps because nobody else does?

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 13:19:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 13:22:20

Before we start wiuth the shit about women lying about rape... The government has done research on that. Less than 8% of reported rapes are deemed false (The Stern report suggests 3%)

Of these, they include
-Misidentified attackers (eg, the victim has been raped, but accused the wrong person)
-People with mental health issues who, for some reason, genuinely believe they've been raped.
-People who've falsely reported a rape, but not named an attacker at all.

Also, the rate of falsely reported rape is lower than the rate at which most other claims are falsely reported.

Also, the figures with regards to reporting rape are taking from the British Crime Survey. They allow a little leeway, hence the "around", but it's generally pretty accurate and consistent.

Myth Do not go out alone at any time. Women are most likely to be raped outside, in dark alleyways late at night. This is the best way for a woman to protect herself.

Is not a myth as such. Sorry, but it really is not.

It truly is. Very few rapes take place outside in dark alleyways, etc. But that myth is one of the reasons that, for a long time, I refused to accept I'd been raped. And it's why acquaintance rape is so difficult to prove; there's all these rape myths and stigma about rape floating about.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 13:23:11

When I used to make my way home from work late at night the thought sometimes occurred that if I get attacked and somebody takes my purse, I will not be blamed for having been out late. Nor will it be assumed that I really wanted to get rid of my money in this way. But if they drag me into a bush and rape me, those ideas will come up.

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 13:23:52

A rapist may not give a shit what you are wearing, but an opportunist stranger is more likely to target the easiest victims. He doesnt want too much of a struggle. A skirt and high heels are much easier for him to overpower his victim than flat shoes. A mugger would look for exactly the same target too.

I go out in very high heels, and tight skirts, as I should be able to, but I would never walk home alone, nor would I let some bloke who had been chatting me up in the pub all night walk me home either, and that is the advice that I have always given to my stepdaughters as they grew up. Stay with your mates and if you need a lift home, ring me.

kelly2000 Wed 19-Oct-11 13:23:58

Rape is one of the hardest crimes for a victim to report as they are stripped, photographed, and have intimate examinations performed upon them (without any lubricant either as this could effect the DNA), the resuls of these examinations, photos etc are then discussed in a court room full of strangers. Despite being a victim the victim is only given the status of witness, and can be cross examined at length and despite changes in the rules they can still be cross examined about their sexual history whereas a convicted rapist cannot be questioned about his convictions for rape in court. A victim of mugging, burgulary etc do not have to go through this. yet despite this we still are told that it is easy for women (it always seems to be women and not men who are tagreted by rape apologists) to lie about rape to get at a man, or because for some reason she thinks it is the 1950's and is ashamed she slept with a man! Obviously if she feels no shame about having sex this proves she is "loose" and therefore likely to say yes to any man and therefore cannot have been raped. If a not guilty verdict is reached rape is the only crime where people want the victim to be prosecuted for not being able to prove to at least ten strangers beyond all reasonable doubt she was raped. We do not see this spite for other victims of crimes where a non-guilty verdict is reached.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 13:29:58

Squeaky. So, would you let a man who you knew walk you home?...

ShirleyKnot Wed 19-Oct-11 13:32:22

Yes, squeaky, and I take "sensible" precautions myself. The issue, as far as I'm concerned, is that "society" likes to push the onus BACK onto the victim, rather than pushing it squarely onto the rapist. That's the point of the argument I'm making.

Oh and how sad and awful that we have to live this way.

kelly2000 Wed 19-Oct-11 13:33:13

dontcallme,
The false report statistics also include reports by other people who think they may have witnessed an attack or seen a woman who looked as if she had been attacked, but in fact when the police check it out they were mistaken. They also include rapes that occur as part of domestic violence where the complaint is withdrawn. because rape is a criem against the state a victim cannot stop the prosecution unless thye withdraw the complaint and say it did nto happen.
This atppened in Wales, where a victim of DV told police she had been raped by her husband. After pressure from him and his family she told police she did not want to prosecute, but was told tough they were going to go ahead non-consensually. She then told them she had lied. However under questioning she admitted she had been raped, but claimed she lied to stop the prosecution. She was then prosecuted for saying she had NOT been raped when she had. Although she was released the judge who released said it would be better to make rape victims who claim they have not been raped do community service! So victims do not have the right to silence as they are witnesses, but rapist are allowed the right to silence and can refuse to answer any questions.

FearfulYank Wed 19-Oct-11 13:35:29

As someone who's been raped, I honestly love this pamphlet.

Because I was raped (my first time having sex) after getting drunk and snogging a boy in his bed. And afterward the thought kept running through my head that people would say "well what did she expect to happen."

I think the good thing about this ad campaign is that it puts the focus and blame where it belongs. It irritates me that I can't feel safe jogging with my dog in the early morning on the trails near my house. Why the actual jeff shouldn't I be able to?! It's when I have the time and energy and I want to. angry

squeakyfreakytoy Wed 19-Oct-11 13:35:34

Yes I would. I am fully aware it could still happen, I am not that naive, and that is the whole point of every post I have made. I am referring to strangers, not people who you know and trust.

As a 42yo married woman, most of the men I know, I have known for a long time and know as much as it is possible to know about their background. I wouldnt walk home with someone who I felt unsure about.

My stepsons friend recently offered to drive me home at the end of a night out. I have no reason to think he may be a rapist, but I dont know that he isnt. I got a cab booked through a company I know and use regularly.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 13:46:28

Aha, thank you for adding that, Kelly. smile I knew there was a point I was missing.

Hmm. Squeaky, I trusted the man who offered me a lift home from work. I'd known him several years, he'd never tried anything before. All we ever heard was "how nice" he was. (Luckily, my ex never so much as doubted me when I told him what had happened.)

I lived with my last rapist. I may have been 19 at the time, Squeaky, but it was a year until he raped me. I thought I knew him. You can never be 100% sure that you know enough about a man to know he's not a rapist.

Also, this continual seperating of "stranger" and "acquaintance" rape is extremely damaging. We already have "date rape" readily dismissed, and we already have victims of stranger rape "blamed" for being in the wrong place, wrong time, wearing the wrong clothes, etc. The sooner we start treating all rapes as the same, horrific crimes, for which the victim can never be blamed, the sooner we'll see more women coming forward.

PosiesOfPoison Wed 19-Oct-11 14:11:54

The only women I know in RL that have been raped have been raped by someone they knew, including one woman who was repeatedly raped by her husband. she would try and hide in her dd's bedroom but he would come in and drag her out, this went on for years.

MrsBethel Wed 19-Oct-11 14:53:11

This leaflet is parodying something that is entirely reasonable. It is entirely reasonable for people to limit their vulnerability to crime.

To not do so, because "the criminal is to blame, not me", seems a bit blase to me.

Of course the criminal is to blame. But, guess what, some people are fucking horrible. I'll protect myself, thanks.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 15:00:18

Let's try again.

Mrs Bethel.

In the winter, it gets dark at 5pm (ish). Should us women avoid going out full stop after 5pm? Really?

And how the hell do you prevent being raped by your partner. Because I can't quite work it out.

SinicalSal Wed 19-Oct-11 15:03:06

'I'll protect myself, thanks'
Good luck with that, MrsBethel. If only I was so 'blase' to believe that its the woman that has the power in a rape scenario.

That's the point of the leaflet.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 15:06:23

^ditto to SinicalSal, as well.

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 15:06:28

so how will you protect yourself?

FearfulYank Wed 19-Oct-11 15:14:24

I do understand "minimizing" your chances of being hurt to a point . I wouldn't let my son play somewhere where I couldn't see him yet...mostly because of dangers like cars, etc, but also the very very slim chance that some horrible person may snatch him. I shouldn't have to worry about that, but it is something I keep in the back of my mind.

And I shouldn't have to worry about going into a parking garage after dark, etc, but when I do have to I keep my wits (and pepper spray) about me. Because some people are fucking scum, as demonstrated by my own rape.

However, I think the point being missed by the whole "minimize your chances" brigade is that there is a very, very fine line between "it's not a good idea to stroll through a dodgy neighborhood at 2 a.m." and "Well men can't help themselves, and if women are stupid enough to be around, well, shrug" .

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 15:32:13

Most women who believe rape myths or peddle them are engaging in a superstitious ritual to protect themselves. The louder they insist that it is the rape victim's own fault, the more they convince themselves that as long as they don't behave as she did, they will be safe from rape. It's like the women who get hugely squawky and aggressive about other women's choices to drink, smoke and eat pate while pregnant - the more noise they make about how wicked that is, the more secure they feel that their own PGs will result in healthy babies. Sadly that's superstitious bullshit too.

FearfulYank Wed 19-Oct-11 15:43:09

Good point SGB .

I think that's human nature though..."He has cancer? Oh that's terrible..." and then you start saying things in your mind like "well he was a smoker," etc. It's the ones that "just happen" that are terrifying. (Of course all tragic events are terrifying to the people they happen to! I didn't mean otherwise.)

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 16:11:15

So if it is a woman's duty to protect herself from ever being in a vulnerable situation- who is going to be doing the triage when I rush my dd to A&E in the middle of the night? Who is going to have time to diagnose her if half the consultants have had to leave their jobs due to being the wrong sex? Who is going to make the bed and take her blood?

If being out after dark is something women mustn't do, I'd have to leave my own job- and I am a bloody academic, not somebody performing life-saving functions in the middle of the night. My female students would also have to leave the university en masse. There would be nobody to buy my supper from and possibly nobody to drive the bus home. Most women who do a fulltime job find themselves in a position where they have to negotiate dark passages/car parks/etc from time to time. We can't all look like sumo wrestlers.

Andrewofgg Wed 19-Oct-11 16:20:41

cory All that is also true of the suggestion (which i think was meant as a caricature) that men should not be allowed out after dark. There are some essential lines of 24/7 work with more men than women involved. We all have to live within the possible.

The fact is that syaing that we can and should all take certain steps ro reduce the likelihood that we will be the victims of certain sorts of crime does not in any way excuse those who commit the crime if they do so anyway. It's not a zero-sum game, and I use the word "game" in the technical sense and without disrespect.

I know that some people don't see it that way especially in regard to rape - and some of those people are women - but it is true nevertheless.

kelly2000 Wed 19-Oct-11 16:30:46

andrew,
But you never see leaflets telling women to not be in long term relationships, nor do we see leaflets telling women to demand that they have chaperones if they are working alone with me, notr do we see leaflets tellign women never to even risk being alone with their friends partners etc, yet these are the things that will stop the vast majority of rapes. telling women they should stay in once it is dark, wear burkas (or is that being provacative and therefore asking for racial abuse) etc.
And the problem is that it is all very well saying take precautions, but in fact those harping on about stranger sin alleys seem to think that the rapist is not fully at fault unless the victim has taken full precautions. I saw one comment son a newspaper say thta women who go out at night get drunk should not complain about rape as it is akin to leaving your car door open and the car keys in, and in that instance the car owner would not get insurance if the cra was stolen. It really is a scummy attitude when people give out safety advice in such a way that they actually encourage rape, because claiming that "what does she expect" "she must be stupid then" if a woman is raped at night is encouraging people to think these rapes are not that bad.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 16:34:26

Of course we should all be sensible, Andrew. But I still maintain that I have never heard a male victim of robbery/mugging etc blame himself for having been in the wrong place at the wrong place. Or his friends hint that of course what could he expect. But women do blame themselves - and women get blamed.

Again, you don't often find police forces putting up posters warning people to drink sensibly to avoid mugging. But they do when it comes to rape.

SinicalSal Wed 19-Oct-11 16:34:57

I agree to an extent Andrew it's just that with regards to rape there are so many myths, so much victim blaming, and no real chance of justice for victims. It's not the same as top ten tips to avoid being pickpocketed. Even if your wallet is hanging out of your pocket people blame the thief for robbing it not you for being a bit drunk/not wearing trousers with proper pockets/giving someone a fiver earlier so obviously its assumed you must wish to give them your entire weeks' wages. It's not treated the same as other crimes, so the parallels don't work.

MrsBethel Wed 19-Oct-11 16:55:42

DontCallMeFrothyDragon, SinicalSal it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

There is a sensible middle ground between putting yourself in every vulnerable position possible and some crazy 5pm curfew.

It's just common sense to avoid some situations. We all end up in vulnerable situations sometimes - it happens, no one's perfect - but let's be honest, it's not something to be blase about.

MrsBethel Wed 19-Oct-11 16:58:29

there is a very, very fine line between "it's not a good idea to stroll through a dodgy neighborhood at 2 a.m." and "Well men can't help themselves, and if women are stupid enough to be around, well, shrug"

I don't think it is a fine line. It's a yawning chasm.

I drive a car without airbags. Does that mean if some boy racer kills me it's my fault? No. I'd still like airbags though.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 17:04:24

Soooo...

Again.

Used to work in a pub. wouldn't allways have enough in tips to get taxi home (buses stopped at 11pm, I wouldn't get out til 12). Following "friend" trying it on that time, I didn't trust people enough to get a lift home, so would walk home. What should I have done?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 17:05:18

And no, it's hardly a yawning chasm...

You'd be suprised at how easily it gets turned from one into the other.

MrSpoc Wed 19-Oct-11 17:10:35

i disagree, cory i have heard mates of mine who have been mugged for being in certain parts of Manchester i.e Moss Side. All of us were are ok? what the fuck where you doing there?

Everyone shoudl take resonsibility for there own safety and there is allot of Police campaignes with regards to this. Have you ever heard of the police coming round to peoples house who leave there windows open at night and giving them a grilling???

catgirl1976 Wed 19-Oct-11 17:11:05

The police DO make posters saying "don't leave your valuables on display in your car" and there was that whole "don't make it easy for them" campaign against burglary on tv recently so I don;t think it's true to say rape is the only crime where prevention advice is given.

However, I still find things like "don't get too drunk dear, you'll only have yourself to blame if you get raped" and "well, wearing that dress what did you expect" pretty horrific and what a lot of rape prevention advice boils down to.

My understanding is that rape is often committed by someone well known to the victim as well so a lot of it seems way off the mark.

I liked the leaflet - very funny

MrSpoc Wed 19-Oct-11 17:14:33

well said Catgirl and i agree with everything you have just said.

cory Wed 19-Oct-11 17:14:37

In the town I used to live there was actually a far greater risk for a man to get beaten up in the town centre than for a woman to get raped. I used to feel safer walking home on my own than with a male escort who might well attract the attention of belligerent drunks.

Yet in all the years I lived there, I don't remember a single campaign aimed at getting men not to roam the town centre in the small hours. Never a suggestion that a man laid himself open to attack simply by moving around his own town at the hours when most people seek amusement. But women- oh yes, that is a different matter. Of course you can't tell a man what he should or shouldn't be doing.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 17:15:03

Advising your daughters (and your sons) not to walk down dark lanes alone when drunk is one thing. Nobody would say that was a bad thing to do.

Telling them that they are 'putting themselves at risk' by what they wear or how they behave is another, though.

MrSpoc Wed 19-Oct-11 17:22:37

cory at the moment there is a advert/radio commercialc on Galaxy (sorry Capital FM) radio station every moringing warning blokes about the dangers of excess drinking, fights etc.

Also there is a TV commerical that is played every day spouting the same crap.

I would call you a liar but you may just not have a radio or tv.

Als there are posters such as this in most pubs in Manchester

SinicalSal Wed 19-Oct-11 17:24:30

tbh MrsBethel it's you that made it all or nothing when you said, 'I'll protect myself, thanks', as though the tips on those sheets are much help outside of a very limited set of circumstances. the point is, to protect yourself adequately you'd have to give up all hope of a normal life.

MrSpoc Wed 19-Oct-11 17:27:23

Thats a very black and white statement SinicalSal and i would say I am dissapointed for you to assume ALL males are rapists.

Andrewofgg Wed 19-Oct-11 17:32:49

kelly2000 I know that many women are raped at home or by someone they know in a place where they are safe. No amount of care by her can prevent that - certainly there is nothing the police can advise her to do.

But there are some rapes to which that does not apply and advising women what to do to prevent them - which is no more than applied common sense - does not absolve the rapist. Not a bit.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 17:33:08

where does she assume that?

If you could stop rape as easily as you could stop valuables being stolen from a car, and if rape cases were never tinged with notions about the victim having courted, risked or asked for it, then maybe it would be fair to treat it as a crime which the victim can reasonably prevent. But because the two are not the same, it is actively dangerous and wrong to suggest that the power lies with the victim not the rapist.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 17:37:54

I don't think that's what SinicalSal was saying at all, MrSpoc.

You can't guess a rapist by looking at him. The only way to avoid ever being raped would be to avoid all human contact.

I refuse to live my life avoiding every possible situation where I could be raped. That'd mean I'd avoid life itself.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Wed 19-Oct-11 17:38:19

C&P from another thread:

HeresTheScaryThingBooyhoo said:

telling women to "dont be a victim" is telling women that they have a choice in whether they are a victim or not when in actual fact the only person who has a choice in who is a victim is a rapist. saying 'dont be a victim' is like saying a woman would make the choice to be a victim!! in other words, if you chose to drink you are chosing to be a victim. and we all know that is bullshit.

Andrewofgg Wed 19-Oct-11 17:40:20

If someone is determined to mug me he will, and there are people who will blame me for my choice to be where I was when I was. Undoubtedly not as many as in rape; I don't deny that. But Elaine if you have a DD you will explain, or have explained, depending on her age, some basic rules of self-preservation, without thinking you were absolving anyone with evil intent.

SinicalSal Wed 19-Oct-11 17:45:09

eh Mr Spoc? NO WAY do I think all men are rapists -ffs - just you can't know by looking at 1000 men which one, if any, is dangerous. Jesus. That's hardly controversial, is it? Logically, to adequately protect oneself, one would have to avoid that unknowable man. Wouldn't give much room for living a normal life.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 17:48:26

Sooo...

I ask again. How do us women prevent ourselves from acquaintance rape? I mean, if we never leave the house, stranger rape is a lot less likely. But how do we protect ourselves from acquaintance rape? Or, y'know. The few rapists who break into people's houses? How do we protect ourselves from then?

And again. If a rapist wants to rape, he'll rape. If there's no women on the street for him to rape, he'll find other ways to rape

LaWeasel Wed 19-Oct-11 17:50:20

I have a DD and I certainly won't tell her how to avoid getting raped by a stranger, because that advice is completely impossible to give.

I will give her advice on staying safe in general when out and about, but nothing specific to rape because there is nothing solid enough advice wise to say.

My aunt was raped by a stranger. He climbed in her bedroom window. None of the clap-trap rape avoidance advice could have saved her.

Whatmeworry Wed 19-Oct-11 17:51:49

Your post does seem further to suggest that you're not too clear on what satire is

That was your term, I used the term "amusement mechanism" - bit clunky, but what I meant was the way the joke is organised.

The same trick was used on a few Topman T-shirts awhile back (one asked what breed your girlfriend was, one was an apology for making a mistake ticksheet). I can see how the amusement mechanism works on them, so I can see how they would amuse, its just that - to me - they were not.

So I can also see how this Rape poster is "funny" - and I find it funny - but I can also see that if the boot was on the other foot it would not be at all funny, as the stereotype that it is lampooning - that any male is a potential rapist - is not a humorous assertion at all.

SinicalSal Wed 19-Oct-11 17:53:50

thanks Dontcall smile you said it in a more measured manner than me - sorry for being a bit snappy MrSpoc

MrSpoc Wed 19-Oct-11 18:01:02

Its Ok SinicalSal. I did not read your post properly and i was wrong.

With regards to acquaintance rape i agree there is NO WAY of avoiding it which is scary. (unless you just avoid men full stop).

Bledkr Wed 19-Oct-11 18:08:37

Its a joke.I especially like number 9.

sherole4justice Wed 19-Oct-11 18:15:28

thats not really that useful becuase if a man rapes a women its out of choice NOT becuase he can't avoid it. Here is 10 more useful steps we women can take to avoid being a victim

http://www.ehow.com/how_8556_avoid-becoming-rape.html

giyadas Wed 19-Oct-11 18:42:04

sherole - you've missed the point.

sherole4justice Wed 19-Oct-11 18:49:09

i dont understand, why would you not want to help prevent rape?

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 18:53:08

because that puts the 'blame' onto the woman for not keeping herself safe

nothing about the man who decides he is going to rape someone

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 18:59:38

Someone posted on another rape-myth thread a while ago about how much she hates the equation of rape with having valuables stolen from your car. And she made the excellent point that while you can keep valuable items out of sight in your car by locking them in the boot or whatever, how is a woman supposed to hide the fact that she has a vagina? To a rapist, the fact that a woman has a vagina means he is entitled to fuck it.

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 19:01:19

We do want to help prevent rape, sherole.

That's why we're keen for responsibility for rape to be squarely on the shoulders of the rapist.

Instead of nurturing what appears to be a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the minds of some jurors, that responsibility for rape somehow rests with the victim.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 19:04:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead Wed 19-Oct-11 19:07:17

hmm

Surely the first step to avoid being raped sherole is
1. Do not be alone with any male ever. Not even your brother, dad or husband.

sherole4justice Wed 19-Oct-11 19:09:40

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 19:10:56

yep 2 to tango

ONE man to rape

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 19:11:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElaineReese Wed 19-Oct-11 19:12:09

Lovely rapey tango.

Arsehole.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 19:13:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead Wed 19-Oct-11 19:14:34

reduce the chance of a man wanting to rape
How exactly?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 19:15:28

No victim is ever active, sherole.

Two to tango doesn't apply to rape. Because the victim has no choice.

BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead Wed 19-Oct-11 19:15:32

I missed "two to tango" shock

DharmaLovesDraco Wed 19-Oct-11 19:15:34

OMG sherole what a completely idiotic, brain dead thing to say hmm

Whatmeworry Wed 19-Oct-11 19:25:12

The only way to prevent rape is for men not to rape

That's like saying the only way to prevent murder is for people not to murder. It's true, but not very helpful IMO.

As another poster said, idealism is great - in an ideal world.

I do think there is a case for taking precautions yourself in a non ideal world though, like with any other thing you do. It's not taking any "blame" FFS!

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 19:27:52

Again.

Whatmeworry. Most rapes are "acquaintance rapes". How do you take precautions against that?

chibi Wed 19-Oct-11 19:29:29

I am proud of all of you who have the strength to say over and over, with more grace than i could muster that it is not the victims fault, that no one chooses to be a victim, that all you need to be raped is a rapist

I am well beyond all that now, at peace with what happened to me, but i know that 20 years ago, if i had been lurking here, your patient words would have saved me a lot of the grief and recriminations that came after

thank you

and lurkers, it is never your fault, and whatever you had to do to live through it was the right thing xc

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 19:37:39

chibi your post has really moved me

i'm glad that you have found peace

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 20:08:48

sherole read chibi's post and tell her it "takes two to tango"

fuckwit

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 20:13:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Uppity Wed 19-Oct-11 20:15:27

"telling women to "dont be a victim" is telling women that they have a choice in whether they are a victim or not when in actual fact the only person who has a choice in who is a victim is a rapist. saying 'dont be a victim' is like saying a woman would make the choice to be a victim!! in other words, if you chose to drink you are chosing to be a victim. and we all know that is bullshit." That bears repeating.

Telling rape victims that it takes two to tango, is telling them that they're equally responsible for their rape. Way to go, rape apologist. You're asking why wouldn't anyone want to stop rape. You don't sound like you want to.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 20:19:57

Very well said, Chibi. smile

FearfulYank Wed 19-Oct-11 20:22:10

Sherole I'm very offended by that.

Yes, when I was a teen I got drunk and went and lay on my "boyfriend's" bed and snogged him. So is it my fault that he didn't stop when I said to, my fault that I was too drunk to fight properly, my fault for not being in my own bed with a cup of tea and a book like a "good girl" , my fault I woke up on bloody sheets in pain and thinking, well, I guess that's the story of how I lost my virginity.

Really? Takes two to tango I suppose. hmm

Uppity Wed 19-Oct-11 20:22:56

And now some idiot's going to come along and bleat that all those awful militant feminists call people rape apologists when they're disagreed with, ignoring the fact that the person they're calling on their rape apologia, has in fact, just posted a rape apologia.

I mean really. How fucking you dare you tell rape victims here that it takes two to tango. How fucking dare you.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 20:26:22

<dittos Uppity>

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 20:33:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 20:40:12

nobody report sheroleforjustice post

let it stand

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 20:40:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MillyR Wed 19-Oct-11 20:41:55

This all seems ridiculous to me.

The chances of being raped in a dark alley are very small. Most people who walk down dark alleys drunk in the dark in a revealing alley are not raped. Most people who are raped are not raped in an alley in the dark by a stranger.

Telling people to avoid dark alleys is like telling people to avoid choking to death by not eating cream buns.

I am sure some people have choked to death on cream buns, but isn't it rather dangerous to advise people to avoid choking to death by not eating cream buns, rather than focus on the more likely scenarios in which choking occurs?

Also, I like eating cream buns and walking home at night drunk. I dislike people telling me I should avoid them because of some event which is no more likely to happen to me than if I behaved differently.

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 20:42:19

justice eh ? hmm

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 20:42:28

i was tempted i'll be honest but i haven't

BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead Wed 19-Oct-11 20:43:02

likewise angry

'Two to Tango' I think I have seen it all now.

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 20:44:22

sorry for sounding bossy, wanted to get it out there quickly

I say let it stand

it shows what we are still dealing with

people really do think like this

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 20:47:42

i know what you mean Any

can't believe in 2011 people still think like that sad

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 20:47:43

One of the things that makes me furious uneasy about the persistent idea that women shouldn't walk home alone is what a rapists' charter this is. Because an awful lot of men consider rape as what other men do, so they will insist on walking a woman home so that those other men can't rape her, but then will insist that having kept the other rapists away, they are now entitled to fuck the woman. An awful lot of the structure of the patriarchy is about convincing women that the way to avoid rape is to acquire a male owner (remember those threads about how women unaccompanied by a man experience persistent harassment from men who will only fuck off when the woman tells them that she is another man's property - because if she is not owned she is 'available') when in fact women are mostly raped by men who know them and therefore feel entitled to fuck them because women aren't really people and therefore their opinions are entirely irrelevant.

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 20:48:09

Not reported for the very same reason.

Also informative to watch the development of that poster:
1) here's another better way to prevent rape
2) you lot don't agree, so you don't want to prevent rape
3) women who are raped have equal responsibility with the rapist (two to tango)

So even at step (2), women are being blamed for rape – simply for refusing to support rape myths.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 20:49:04

I agree, AF.

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 20:52:03

Very true, SGB. The time I have felt most in danger was from a man who attempted to escort me home from somewhere very isolated, insisting over and over that I would need protection from potential rapists. hmm

chibi Wed 19-Oct-11 20:53:58

regarding the safety of going out at night, in other exciting news <eeeeee>

if you are in the london area on sat 26 november, why not pop along to reclaim the night

me and shedloads of other women will be there

whose streets?

OUR STREETS

my streets

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 20:55:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fit2drop Wed 19-Oct-11 21:02:10

Sherole thanks .... FUCKING THANKS A FUCKING LOT!! YOU FUCKING MORON!!

wanna here the story of a 21 yr old mum of 2, just found out she was pregnant with 3rd, so happy , all planned pregnancies.

Then raped by 2 guys ,

couldn't tell husband,

flash backs,

irrational fear of anyone having anything to do with the baby when born because she felt the baby was only clean thing about her.

Ending up on a mother and baby unit for three months

5 years of intense psychology of which 2 yrs was 5 days a week...

marriage breakdown. so 3 kids now in a broken home

This mum didn't say no, this mum just let them do what they wanted to do in a fucking public park (have since realised that anyone seeing such an act would have thought it was some young indiscreet people)

36 years of fucking guilt and self blame

I DIDNT SAY NO....WANNA KNOW WHY.... COS MY TONGUE WAS PHYSICALLY STUCK TO THE ROOF OF MY MOUTH THROUGH SHEER FEAR.

sO i NEVER SAID NO ...MEANS i TANGO'D DID IT?

SHEROLE YOU ARE A MORONIC FUCKWIT!!
ABSOLUTELY THE MOST DISGUSTING VILE POST i HAVE EVER READ ON mn.

chibi Wed 19-Oct-11 21:04:20

i know! exciting liasing to commence imminently!

fwiw though i know that most rapes are not committed by strangers after dark etc, this is a public way to reaffirm that it is not my job to stop people raping me

and also cos i was one of the few who are assaulted by strangers, so it is a pretty big deal for me personally and massive act of courage to go out alone at night

Uppity Wed 19-Oct-11 21:05:17

Excellent observation by SGB there.

It's true isn't it, so many men feel entitled to fuck you because they've warded off all those other, nasty rapists. So they expect you to show them your gratitude by er, allowing them to rape you and not call it rape.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 21:07:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 21:07:23

<support and solidarity to fit2drop>

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 21:10:20

((( fit2drop )))

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 21:11:19

I love sgb's take on these kinds of threads

utterly cuts through the bullshit

NinkyNonker Wed 19-Oct-11 21:14:56

I wanted to name change but couldnt figure out how to blush but here goes anyway. I was raped as a teenager, by my much loved boyfriend. We had gone to his school leaving do, and I got horrendously drunk (I wasn't much of a drinker) and went to sleep it off under a tree. I have flashbacks of him coming along and having his way with me (sorry about the twee terminology) and then going back to his party.

So yes, you know what? At the time I did think it was my fault.Was I too drunk to say no? Possibly, but definitely too drunk to consent or take part. But not too drunk to remember it though. I never even mentioned it to him, I was too confused/ashamed.

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 21:15:37

((fit2drop))

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 21:18:47

((Ninky))

My experiences of date rape are well documented on here. I had known this person for a number of years. He was known to many of my friends.

The only way I could have prevented that was to never go out on a date with a man.

blackoutthesun Wed 19-Oct-11 21:28:03

((ninky))

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 21:39:50

UPT, yes, it happens

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 21:40:52

"She-Role for Justice"? Yep, sounds like a lovely new guest to me.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 21:42:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Uppity Wed 19-Oct-11 21:44:33

Well the feminist boards are a bit quiet atm, so that sort is spreading out to other areas of MN.

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 21:46:33

I have a feeling that the Reclaim the Night march is the same night as the MN Xmas Drink Up. Now that would be an interesting combination...

gordyslovesheep Wed 19-Oct-11 21:48:03

not read all this but it's a rip off of a very old poster we used to have on the wall at Rape crisis in about 1989 - How To Avoid rape - can't remember it all but it was 'don;t have a boyfriend, don;t have a husband (rape is legal in marriage) it was don't have a landlord, don't have male friends - most rapists are know to the woman, don;t go out , don;t stay in, don't wear clothes - they 'provoke' men, don't go naked - that's askig for it ... something like that - the last line was 'to be certain - don;t exist'

the aim was similar - but also saying to the 'law' and society - women are NOT to blame for rape - nothing we do can control the actions of others.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 21:50:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 21:51:02

Oh and since we're sharing: some years ago I was at a swingers' party, got pissed, went and had a lie down. Woke up to find a bloke with his hand in my pants, shrieked, told him to fuck off and when he did, went stumbling off to find the party hosts.

Who were more than willing to give him a good kicking and sling him out, the only reason that didn't happen is because I couldn't identify 100% which bloke it had been (and really didn't want to have an innocent man beaten up.) So plenty of people do not buy into rape myths, swingers at a swingers' party did not act as though it was All My Own Fault for wearing skimpy clothes and getting drunk, they were all horrified. So there is hope.

MotherPanda Wed 19-Oct-11 21:54:22

Good stuff

Uppity Wed 19-Oct-11 22:04:17

TBH though, I think swingers are at the cutting edge of understanding consent issues. Because swinging wouldn't work without a very developed consciousness of power relationships, consent dynamics etc.

It's a pity more people devoted to hetero-monogamy, didn't have such developed consciousness about consent.

I would really like to see genuine advice given to men regarding how to avoid intimidating behaviour, eg crossing the road if they find themselves walking behind a lone woman on a dark street. Any other examples people can think of?

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 22:05:08

uppity, yes

Whatmeworry Wed 19-Oct-11 22:05:30

Whatmeworry. Most rapes are "acquaintance rapes". How do you take precautions against that

Good question - The stats show that most acquaintance rape is of inexperienced young women aged c 16 - early 20's, by their equally inexperienced boyfriends/romantic interests (of widely variable relationship length), typically when one or both had had a lot of alcohol and (in a significant minority) drugs. Percentages vary by study, but that's the usual picture.

So obvious stuff around not getting too bladdered to know what you are doing, dropping/avoiding guys who are making you uncomfortable, but IMO it all really comes down to trying to instil life experience into young heads early. IMO thats about teaching self worth - MMeLindor said it well in the other thread running IMO:

Teaching them that their body is their own, that no one has the right to touch them, that if they feel uncomfortable that they should shout out and walk away - these are the important lessons.

Thata a good starter IMO.

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 22:09:25

WMW have you got any helpful tips on how I could have prevented my daterapist from raping me ?

Minimal alcohol. No drugs. He didn't make me uncomfortable until he decided to rape me. I was a young, but savvy, woman. He was an experienced young man.

What should I have done ?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 22:12:26

Sorry, do you have a link to these stats, please, whatmeworry?

SURELY, when dealing with acquaintance rape, the onus should be on the man? This is consent. That isn't. The education about consent, and subsequently about rape, should be on the man. Not the woman.

With my first rape, I was 16. He was 9 years older than me. He noticed me shaking like a leaf beneath him. All he did was tell me to stop shaking. I'm not sure saying "no" would have made any difference. He should have known better.

SolidGoldVampireBat Wed 19-Oct-11 22:14:46

Teach boys and young men early the idea that sex is a collaboration, not something women 'hold' and men have to 'get from' them. That enthusiastic participation is the minimum you should expect from a sexual encounter and if you are not getting signs of delight from the other person then you should stop at once and ask if there's something wrong.
And that someone who has had sex with everyone in your entire postal code is still completely entitled to refuse to have sex with you.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 22:15:47

Just to add, I was sober. 16, and had never got pissed beforehand at any point in my life. It sent me off the rails. I supressed the memories for 10 years. Took place two days after the twin towers. The 10th anniversary of 9/11 reminded me of everything. For the first time in 10 years, I remembered why I couldn't remember losing my virginity.

I only started remembering things just over a month ago.

There was nothing I could have done.

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 22:18:38

[[ frothy ]]

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 22:23:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lurkinginthebackground Wed 19-Oct-11 22:30:28

I think this is a fab poster, regardless of whether it is a rip off or anything else. I would like to see this on billboards everywhere.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Wed 19-Oct-11 22:31:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FearfulYank Wed 19-Oct-11 22:35:21

It strikes you at the strangest times, doesn't it?

I never think about it unless the old "when did you lose your virginity" thing comes up, or oddly enough at the gyno. I can't usually make it through a pap smear without tears.

KarenPil Wed 19-Oct-11 22:39:30

I had an acquaintance try and rape me. I was working abroad, living on site above the stables. He was a neighbour who used to ride the horses there. We used to speak, but there was nothing there between us - no flirting, nothing. One lunch time he broke into my flat and tried to rape me. I told him to get out. Screamed at him. He pinned me down and sexually assaulted me. He tried to rape me then. I do not know where I found the strength from, but I managed to break free and literally kicked him down the fire escape stairs.

Apparently it was my fault as I should have shouted 'help' louder. I didn't even know the word for help was in that language at the time (doubtless my fault too). The police weren't even called. And this man complained that I had hurt him when I kicked him down the stairs.

What SGB just said about boys being taught that sex should be collaborative really struck a chord. In the area where I was living English speaking young women were seen as 'easy'. Therefore some of the local men assumed they could fuck any of us they wanted.

In the same country a couple of years later a young Eastern European woman I knew was gang raped by 3 men (all acquaintances to her - she was relieved to see them as they were familiar and she was locked out of her flat). The police were called but no charges were made. The one illegal worker involved got sacked. The two other men carried on exactly as before - worse actually as they had raped, viciously, violently and had gotten away scot free. They were like cockerels - all pumped up and arrogant.

So I guess that young woman and the young me tangoed with these acquaintances of ours?

florriesdragon Wed 19-Oct-11 22:41:38

Have C&Ped from the other thread as I want to share, hopefully to help change some peoples opinions of acquaintance rape...

I'm in South Wales (the "dont be a victim" campaign on the other thread makes my location relevant) and I was raped a few years back. I was at a house party with friends and drunk. I went up to use the toilet and woke up in a bedroom (not sure how I got there, now believe that I was probably spiked, though I also have epilepsy so I could have had a fit)

I woke to find three men raping me.

They were friends of my best friends boyfriend, people I knew and had been socialising with for months beforehand. He was in on it. He told my best friend that I wanted it, came into the room laughing at one point, having left her downstairs. My memory is very hazy, but I distinctly remember him saying that he "didn't want a go as I was disgusting".

I am very glad that I was drunk and that my memory is hazy at best.

I felt at the time it was my partly fault as I was drunk so I couldn't fight them off.
But as it was, drunk or not, waking up to find three men on top of me and inside me, I just froze.
I always thought I'd fight in this situation. I'm a fighter. But I just lay there.

As I've said, they were friends. There was no reason prior to my rape for me to think I couldn't be alone with them. I wasn't walking down a dark alley. I wasn't even technically alone with anyone.

I didn't report it, precisely because I was drunk (this poster was out at the time) I knew that people would say it was my fault. And not believe me. My best friend was easily persuaded by them, what chance did I have of convincing the police?
(We no longer speak by the way. My instant coping mechanism was to go along with her thought that I wanted it. But that got too hard eventually)

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 22:45:56

<support and solidarity to KarenPil>

FY, the thing that triggered the memory for me was seeing all those stories from where everyone had been on 9-11. somehow, thinking about that in depth brought everything else back.

FearfulYank Wed 19-Oct-11 22:48:53

Oh florrie. sad So sorry.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 22:49:10

<support and solidarity to florriesdragon>

Tianc Wed 19-Oct-11 22:57:50

((((( ))))) to everyone who's shared here.sad

Beaverfeaver Wed 19-Oct-11 23:07:42

Florrir - I feel for you as I went through a very similar experience years ago. I was also drunk so never reported it. I never talk about it and only my fiancé knows about it.

When it does come to mind, my main regret is that these guys (who were only about 17 at the time) have probably gone on to do it again.

I lost a part of me that night. I couldn't physically bring myself to drink another alcoholic drink for about 2 years after.
I was depressed and put on a lot of weight. Quit college and became a recluse.
Lost friends because of it.

If only they knew, but they never will

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 19-Oct-11 23:11:09

so sorry BF

alwayspoor Wed 19-Oct-11 23:25:01

Its awful, like a joke. hmm DOn't rape. Thats it.

StewieGriffinsMom Wed 19-Oct-11 23:26:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead Wed 19-Oct-11 23:31:22

It is so worrying that so many people on here have a story to tell that they've never reported sad

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Wed 19-Oct-11 23:37:46

<support and solidarity to BF, and any lurkers> sad

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Wed 19-Oct-11 23:45:45

[[ unblue hugs ]]

heleninahandcart Wed 19-Oct-11 23:59:36

It happened to me too. Twice. Blocked out both times and now realise I wanted to make both incidents not rape. Then it would be ok. The first, 25 years ago fundamentally changed my perspective. Any man could at any time be stronger than me and just jump me.

The first was a demonstration of ownership by then bf. I had been in a taxi coming home from a late night. The taxi driver drove off to a deserted place and wouldn't drive me home unless I 'kissed' him. I got home by saying I would invite him up when I got home. So I avoided a sexual assault.

I called my then bf as I was scared and upset. He played sympathetic and then blamed me for being out late and that I must have been up to no good anyway. This was apparently my nature, and always would be. He made to cuddle me, pushed me on the bed and raped me. My brain seemed to reject what was happening, froze and by the time I realised what was happening it was over. I continued the relationship.

Second time, I can't talk about yet. It was also someone close to me, 4 years ago. He was a long time friend who was meant to be comforting me after a split with an ex. He seemed to genuinely think he was entitled. I froze again, felt bad enough already and I didn't react straight away. Again, over very quickly and he realised what he had done. Still don't want to think of it as rape, I always told myself he misread the situation, but it was rape. He actually told me 'I shouldn't have done that'

Oddly I've never felt threatened on the street. Just at home.

forkful Thu 20-Oct-11 00:19:47

sad we've had many of these threads before where people share their experiences - I think that raising public awareness of rape and how it really happens and is never the woman's fault and what consent means should be the next MN campaign...

ShirleyKnot Thu 20-Oct-11 01:11:16

Holy shit.

Stumbled back onto this thread and am utterly shocked and awed by the bravery of those sharing their experiences.

I am applauding you, ignoring the apologists and sending you many, many heartfelt cwtches.

Seriously.

Tianc Thu 20-Oct-11 01:48:47

A thread like this a while back developed the theme "Just an ordinary man", the description by so many posters of the men who raped them. But I can't find the thread.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 06:52:17

<support and solidarity to Helen>

AnyPhantomFucker Thu 20-Oct-11 07:15:25

[[ helen ]]

NinkyNonker Thu 20-Oct-11 07:40:44

Scary isn't it, I used to think rape was rare, but it is so much more common than I thought, and so many upreported cause we feel to blame. As do some posters, it would seem.

Not that it makes it any better but I hadn't drunk much that night, not sure how I ended up so 'drunk'...

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 08:03:50

I don't talk about my experiences offline, except for with my best friend. I never have, never will, and my experiences with DS's dad (they're not mentioned in this thread) meant that I ended up pushing away someone that meant a great deal to me last year. He's still a friend, but only because he was too stubborn to turn his back on me. I can't talk about what happened with DS's dad in real life, out of the fear that DS will find out one day.

I suspect there's a lot of women on this thread, either lurking, or those who've posted, who have their experiences hidden away from the real world. But then, isn't that our rapists holding poower over us still? They may not actively be doing anything now, but we're effectively holding one of their secrets, because, in a way, we're scared of the reaction if we did talk about it.

I've honsetly said, time and time again, to myself that my mother wouldn't believe me if I told her. My first rapist was her best friend's son. The second was my ex fiancee, who she adored until she got the sense I wasn't telling her everything about our split. But then, why should we be silenced? sad

NinkyNonker Thu 20-Oct-11 08:07:25

I certainly haven't told anyone.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 08:19:16

[[ Ninky ]]

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 09:05:20

just caught up with the two to tango post angry

my friend was mugged at knifepoint

he handed over his wallet

takes two to tango, you know hmm

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 09:37:59

There are so many fallacies on this thread it's ridiculous.

- It is possible to give advice to women to minimise their vulnerability.
- It is impossible to avoid completely the chance of being raped.
- It is never the victims fault.

These are not mutually exclusive.

PosiesOfPoison Thu 20-Oct-11 09:43:27

WWW. Do you think children can stop rapists too or just women that are stupid enough to think they can have a couple of beers and trust someone?

Just wondered. Everytime someone talks about victim blaming I wonder what age is the cut off?

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 09:44:02

Can we change that word "minimise" to something a bit more realistic, MrsBethel? "Slightly lessen" perhaps.

The sad truth is that the statistically greatest threat is likely to come from men who promise to protect you: by walking you home from that party, insisting on giving you a lift from work, keeping you away from socialising (in the case of partners) to protect you from other men.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 09:50:51

FANTASTIC

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 09:51:31

<haven't read thread>

LaWeasel Thu 20-Oct-11 09:53:48

Honestly, what advice would you give a woman to minimise her chance of being raped?

What one thing?

Because I can't think of anything.

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 20-Oct-11 09:55:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 09:56:27

If she got in a box and wrapped it in chains and had it thrown in th eriver (a la Houdini), she might have a chance.

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 09:56:59

LaWeasel Don't leave your drink with a stranger who is trying it on?

cory maybe 'slightly lessen' would be more appropriate.

SolidGoldVampireBat Thu 20-Oct-11 09:57:18

And if a woman completely avoided the company of all men and never went out, and one day a rapist broke into her home and raped her some people would say that she could have prevented the rape if she'd learned to interact properly with men and allowed one to own her.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 09:58:11

I can't think of any, either, LaWeasel. Except SGM's anecdote. And I'll be damned if I'm giving up the majority of my friends on the off chance one of them may rape me.

LaWeasel Thu 20-Oct-11 09:58:41

Ridiculous - and still doesn't work.

My aunt was raped when she was home alone (someone broke in) I have heard of other similar stories - including on here.

And a woman could still sexually assault you. It's not technically rape, but I'm sure the emotional impact is extremely similar.

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 09:59:33

I have only read this page

<caveat caeat caveat>

But I see what Mrs Bethel means, I would, for example, tell my dd (and ds) never to leave a drink unattended, not to dance about in the badlands alone at night etc etc

LaWeasel Thu 20-Oct-11 10:01:23

I do agree that in order to stay safe when drinking not living your drink unattended, travelling in groups of 3s help minimise risks. But they help minimise risks of anything bad happening at all, to anyone of either gender, not just rape.

I think it is fundamentally wrong to market advice like that as rape-avoidance advice.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 10:02:05

MrsBethel. Again. 80% of rapes are carried out by someone the victim knows.

My ex's drink got spiked, ironically considering... I'd been at the bar, ordered drinks, had only spoken to the barmaid. I've never worked out when whatever got dropped into my ex's drink got dropped. I suspect it was as I was putting my purse away. I'd been with a big group of male friends, and my ex. No one had been trying it on.

You're drink can still be spiked even when someone is watching it. My daughters was spiked, hers wasn't left unattended, but some one still managed to sneak something in it. Thankfully her friends were with her when the drug hit.

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 10:05:12

I do think it should be posted up in pubs and clubs and indeed everywhere. It will make people think.

LaWeasel Thu 20-Oct-11 10:05:13

My friend had a similar story at University slightlymad no one could work out when it had happened and who had done it. Thankfully she was with friends who noticed straight away when it started taking effect.

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 10:09:08

If stuff like that means even just one less woman gets raped, it's worth it. Even if it offends some people.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 10:14:11

Y'know. Teaching men and boys about consent would prevent a lot of rapes.

Teaching them that, y'know... acting like a decent human being doesn't give you entitlement... that would prevent a lot of rapes.

Again. How do you prevent the 80% of rapes carried out by someone the victim knows and trusts? Or how do you prevent the woman from getting raped anyway, regardless of whether the rapist had a chance to spike her drink... Because, if a rapist wants to rape, he'll do it regardless of whether he's spiked his intended victim's drink

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 10:16:39

I dunno, Teaspoons, depends on the man. Dh for eg, walks lots of my friends home at 2 in the morning, as do my brothers, good male friends etc.

Should they walk alone? I dunno. (Genuine question). I do get your point.

AyeScream Thu 20-Oct-11 10:18:30

In addition, UPT, if a person on a jury has seen this poster, has their rape myths beliefs reinforced and convinces some fence-sitting fellow jurors that the victim put herself in danger by <insert mythy practice> - so can they really convict the rapist beyond reasonable doubt? So the rapist goes on to rape more women. Multiply that by only a small percentage of rape trials every year and that is a LOT of rapes that could have been prevented by rape myths not prevailing.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 10:20:35

But how can you know which man will turn out to be a rapist?

Do they have an "R" branded on their forehead? Do sirens sound when you're within 50 metres of them?

Any of those male friends, your brothers or even your DH could turn out to be a rapist. I'm not saying they are. But sometimes it's more dangerous to walk home with a male friend than it is to walk home alone.

Again. 80% of rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim.

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 10:21:51

I reckon longer jail terms would help.

Really, all rapes should probably be punished with a life sentence.

What is the chance of a rapist, once released, committing another rape? What is it? 10%? 5%? 1%? I don't know what the figure is, but whatever it is, surely it's preferable to leave the criminal rotting in a cell rather than take even a 1% risk of another woman being raped.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AyeScream Thu 20-Oct-11 10:24:36

Sorry, got my threads muddled up. Didn't mean to refer to this poster. I meant the Blame The Victim ones.

Yes, longer jail sentences would help. But getting the bastards locked up in the first place would be a start. And challenging rape myths in general society is the way to go so that juries don't believe a load of old crap and find them not guilty.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 10:25:58

Jail terms only deal with the crimes after they've been commited.

Surely the sensible thing is to deal with the minds of men who believe rape is acceptable before they rape, before they screw up someone's life

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 10:26:31

I really think putting that poster everywhere would make people think. Men and women.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 10:29:20

I see that Teaspoons has already made the point I had laboriously typed out: advice that saves one woman and endangers several is dodgy advice. And advice that causes confusion which might lead to more rapists going scot free is seriously dodgy advice.

Hullygully Thu 20-Oct-11 10:32:31

yy

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 20-Oct-11 10:33:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tianc Thu 20-Oct-11 10:34:26

That ^^.

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 10:38:59

So we've concluded that bad advice is bad.

Does that mean that good advice is good?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 10:40:09

Good advice is good, yes.

bUt there is no good advice on how to avoid rape.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 10:57:34

Advice on how to avoid being raped is a bit like advice to children on how to avoid being abused by their parents. You may know everything there is to know about the question but the other person is still stronger than you sad

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 10:58:20

So would you leave your drink unattended with a man you've just met in a club?

kelly2000 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:01:35

If we constantly differentiate between rape and non-consensual sex, like many rape justifiers do then we will never stop rapes. Its a simple message, "if they did not say yes of their own free will, you are a rapist, you are not some young lad confused by the girls of today, not some prick tease victim, not a young red blooded male who just went a bit too far, you are a rapist!"

Whatmeworry Thu 20-Oct-11 11:01:50

bUt there is no good advice on how to avoid rape

But does that mean no advice should ever be given?

What would you advise your own daughters?

Its kids aged 16 - early 20's who are most likely to be raped, so this is the real problem any mother of teen daughters faces.

kelly2000 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:02:44

mrsbethal,
I would not leave my drink unattended with a man I knew at a house party. raping a stranger is far mroe likely to lead to a jail term, than raping someone you know.

roz1982 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:03:52

That leaflet is one of the best bloody things I've ever seen. Love love love it. I love it because it's nothing to do with what women should or shouldn't do to avoid rape, which is often what is focused on which is ridiculous because it totally takes responsibility away from the one who rapes. It doesn't trivialise rape in the slightest, it's ironic.

LaWeasel Thu 20-Oct-11 11:07:21

No I wouldn't leave my drink alone with someone I'd just met.

But that doesn't make it good advice to avoid rape.

It would be far more effective to advise not to leave your drink alone with anyone ever, but it's pretty impractical if it means you have to cart your cup of tea with you everywhere you go through your own home if your neighbour or sibling or partner etc is around.

squeakyfreakytoy Thu 20-Oct-11 11:08:49

If you do a google search with the key words "woman raped after on way home" it will throw up lots of results sad

In almost every link the woman has been attacked as she made her own way home, on her own, late at night.

If these women had stayed with their friends, there is a very good chance that they would have got home safely.

Why is it so "bad" to advise young girls, who may not be as sensible as older women, to think before they make decisions that have a devasting result on their lives.

Yes, there are lots of other scenarios where there is absolutely nothing that the victim could have done differently to avoid being in a vulnerable position, but that does not apply to the above examples.

I am 42, and have lived long enough to read many many incidents where young women have been raped, and murdered, because they made the wrong decision. In my teens and 20's I know I put myself at possible risk, because I was over confident, because I thought it wont happen to me, because I had the attitude that I see on here of "I have the right to go where I want to go and sod the risks"... with age comes more common sense, and yes, I do have the right to walk wherever I want, at any time I want, but common sense tells me that just because I know I have the right, there is a chance someone out there thinks they have the right to attack me for being there alone. They dont have that right, but I would rather do what I can to ensure they dont get the chance either.

LaWeasel Thu 20-Oct-11 11:09:11

I have already said Whatme that I have a daughter (and a son) and I won't be giving them any rape avoidance advice, I will however be giving them advice about staying safe in general when drinking and at other vulnerable times.

The only advice I will be giving them with regard to rape will be a huge amount of discussion about consent and what it really is.

squeakyfreakytoy Thu 20-Oct-11 11:14:04

LaWeasel, if your daughter was going out clubbing with her mates, and told you she would be walking home alone afterwards, would you be happy with that? What would you say to her?

jenny60 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:14:08

Hate the fact that so many women have been raped and so many were unreported sad and hate that those of us who haven't been, feel lucky angry.

Love the leaflet. Am going to put it on my door at work.

Tcanny Thu 20-Oct-11 11:15:31

Hate to say this as a bloke, BUT THAT POSTER IS VALID.

It boils down to if she hasn't said yes then you are being a rapist. And this poster places responsibility right where it should lie. WITH MEN MALES WHO THINK THEY CAN JUSTIFY RAPE I point blank refuse to call a rapist a man.

Actualy pretty thought provoking OP

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 11:15:51

"No I wouldn't leave my drink alone with someone I'd just met.

But that doesn't make it good advice to avoid rape.

It would be far more effective to advise not to leave your drink alone with anyone ever, but it's pretty impractical if it means you have to cart your cup of tea with you everywhere you go through your own home if your neighbour or sibling or partner etc is around."

Hang on.

So you wouldn't leave your drink unattended with someone you've just met. But if I advise my child to do likewise that is not good advice? Because it is impractical to keep your cup of tea with you at all times?

What?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 11:16:33

MrsBethel, I don't leave my drink unattended with anyone. But my ex's drink still got spiked (the drink spiking was meant for me).

I was with a big group of friends. None of them would have spiked it.

Whatmeworry, there is no advice I can give. I took all of my mothers "advice". I still got raped. Repeatedly. None of those rapes took place outside, whilst I was pissed out of my face, walking down an alleyway in high heels and a short skirt, low cut top or whatever.

I can ask my DD, if I ever have one, not to walk home alone, and instead I'll collect her. But that doesn't protect her from her boyfriend, male friend, taxi drivers... whooever else I can't protect her from.

jenny60 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:17:52

Squeaky:no woman has ever been raped and murdered because she 'made the wrong decision'. The hideous fucker who did it to her 'made the wrong decision'. I can't believe you think that, let alone say it. How insensitive, especially on a thread where so many women have shared their experiences of being raped.

squeakyfreakytoy Thu 20-Oct-11 11:19:34

Jenny, read back my own posts before calling me insensitive. I WAS attacked. I have every right to the opinion that making a decision to walk home alone puts you in a vulnerable position, because it does.

kelly2000 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:19:37

If you tell your child to not leave their drink unattended with strangers, but do not tell her to not leave it unattended with people she knows (boys from school at parties etc), then you are giving her very bad advice as you are making her feel safer with men she knows.

She is far more likely to be raped by someone she knows like a boy from school, uni., friends brother/boyfriend/ friend of a friend, her own boyfriend etc then a stranger.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:19:38

Your research methods leave something to be desired, squeaky.

If you google "woman raped after on way home" then naturally you are going to get stories about women who are raped on their way home from something (usually a party), not women who are raped in their homes by their friend's boyfriend at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. If I google "man eaten by lion" I am not going to come across a wide range of stories of men dying from in old age from cancer of the prostate. It doesn't mean the risk of being eaten by lions is actually greater.

There is one other factor to be remembered. The story of a woman raped by a stranger while walking alone is far more likely to get wide news coverage and be circulated on the internet than the story of a woman who was raped by her bf's brother seeing her home supposedly for her protection. The latter kind of story makes less interesting news.

It is also less likely to be reported to the police in the first place as the woman is more likely to feel ashamed and worried about the reactions of other people. Read throught the posts of the women who have told their own experiences on this thread: many of them have never spoken about it until now. If they had been jumped on by total strangers appearing from behind a bush they probably would have.

jenny60 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:21:48

I have and you are squeaky.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:21:59

One piece of advice I will definitely be giving my daughter- apart from general safety advice- is to be very wary of any man who shows signs of wanting to control her and push his presence on her when she doesn't want it "for her own protection". From many years of reading the Relationship threads on MN, that seems to be one fairly reliable sign of a dodgy man.

AyeScream Thu 20-Oct-11 11:22:21

squeaky, that's because those are the rapes that are reported by the media. I don't think the papers are very interested in "husband penetrates wife whilst she is asleep".

squeakyfreakytoy Thu 20-Oct-11 11:22:31

And I cant remember if it was on this thread or the other one, but my friend was raped and murdered because she thought that it would be quicker than waiting for a taxi, to take a short cut through the fields from the nightclub we were all at.

I can 100% guarantee that if she had stayed with us, and got in a cab with us, her body would not have been found the next morning.

Can you not see that? Can you not see that she made a bad decision and it cost her her life. Do you not think her parents wish she had waited with her friends. Or do you think people should just say "oh well, she was within her rights to walk home". No, she wasnt doing anything WRONG, but she made a decision that enabled some evil bastard to kill her.

LaWeasel Thu 20-Oct-11 11:23:08

If she was walking in a group that were going to stay together yes of course I would be fine with that. There could still be a rapist in that group of course. Just like a taxi driver could be a rapist, but being in a big group would mean she is less likely to wander off when drunk and get lost and injure herself, be mugged, wander into the road etc.

She has to learn to assess for herself what is safe and what isn't.

I am so incredibly lucky not to have ever been raped, not because of anything to do with my behaviour - but because I am lucky not to have been raped.

I am lucky not to have had my house broken into by a rapist, I am lucky not to have been raped by a relative, I am lucky not to have been raped by my boyfriend when I said I didn't want to have sex as I was too tired from morning sickness, I am lucky never to have had sex with someone who when I asked them to stop refused to do so.

I know people in real life who all these things have happened to. These rape-myths about rape being preventable if only you didn't put yourself in a vulnerable position are the reasons the people I know in real life have real difficulty coping with the fact that they were raped and didn't report them to the police.

So no I will never tell lies to my children that give them false comfort about how to avoid rape.

I will teach my son not to be a rapist.

I will teach my daughter what to do if a friend is raped, or if a partner starts to be controlling.

I will teach them both to be sensible about ALL kinds of danger and I will cross my fingers and hope that they are lucky too.

roz1982 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:24:10

Tcanny, even as a bloke it's ok to express the opinion that men shouldn't rape. There's lots of things that women do, that as a woman I disagree with. Its not about being a man or woman it's about being a person who knows and accepts that certain things that people do to each other is just plain wrong. In any circumstances.

jenny60 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:27:35

Great post Laweasel

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 20-Oct-11 11:27:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo Thu 20-Oct-11 11:28:51

"No, she wasnt doing anything WRONG, but she made a decision that enabled some evil bastard to kill her."

I have heard it all now. You actually blame your friend for her rape and murder. you are laying some of the blame at her door.

What you should be saying is that any woman who goes outdoors is making a decision that enables some evil bastard to kill her, or even any woman in the company of anyone else is making a decision that enables some evil bastard to kill her.

I am truly sorry about your friend but your anger is misplaced and what you are saying is really very idiotic. really it is!

roz1982 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:30:34

Squeakyfreakytoy, I totally get your point, and what an awful disgusting horrendous thing to have happened to your friend, it shouldn't happen to anyone, but I get what your saying, the sad fact is that we live in a world where these terrible things happen. Personally, I don't think I would ever walk home alone at night, I have done in the past, and I'm sure I have also been in many different situations at many different times over the years where I could have been raped or worse. I think the point is that women SHOULD be able to live their lives freely WITHOUT fear. We SHOULD be able to walk wherever we want whenever we want and do what ever we want without fear. But the simple fact is with things the way they are, we can't and that for all women and men is the real tragedy.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:30:37

I will be advising my dd to be careful when she is out late at night. I will be advising her to be careful when drinking. I will be advising her to be very careful with taxis. A lot of this advice I will also be giving to my son. Men have been murdered when walking home from parties late at night. Men have been murdered by taxi drivers. Men have had their drinks spiked.

There is nothing wrong with the advice. What is wrong is giving the false impression that if you only follow this advice, rape can't touch you.

And fwiw the one time in my life when I have stayed in a place (my workplace) overnight explicitly because of a fear of walking out late at night, the house was burgled and the (fortunately non-violent) burglars entered the room I was in. I don't blame myself for making a wrong decision, though clearly it wouldn't have happened if I had just walked home like I did every other night.

roz1982 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:32:02

And duellingfanjo is right, it's never the womans fault, not in any tiny way, I just don't think you can ever say that.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:32:38

A girl I knew and liked very much was murdered. She made a decision that enabled a man to murder her. The decision was getting herself a boyfriend. sad

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 20-Oct-11 11:33:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 11:36:33

There does seem to be this persistent idea that if you can't eliminate the risk completely, you shouldn't try to mitigate it at all.

squeakyfreakytoy Thu 20-Oct-11 11:39:02

I give up. Cant see why people are so fucking stubborn and pig headed that they refuse to see the sense in putting their own personal safety below what they feel are their rights.

Statistically women are more likely to be raped by someone they know, yes we all know that. It is not the same as saying they will ONLY be raped by someone they know. There is still a risk being taken when women put themselves in a vulnerable position, and if there was the choice NOT to put themselves in that situation, then the sensible thing is to do what you can to protect yourself first if you are able to.

A rapist is not going to stop because a woman tells him she has the right to be there and he does not have the right to rape her.

I am specifically talking about rapes by a STRANGER, _not any other scenario_. Is that not obvious here?. If a woman takes measures to do what she can to avoid being in a situation, on her own, outside, when there were other better and safer options, then that woman is taking an unnecessary risk.

How can anyone possibly argue with that?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 11:40:50

OK, lets put it this way, MrsBethel. I am not giving my DD advice that I am not giving my DS.

And you still haven'explained how to reduce the risk of being raped by a male friend/boyfriend/husband/brother/other...

kelly2000 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:41:04

Squeky,
I knew someone who was raped and murdered by someone she knew and trusted to walk her home. It was a vicious killing and rape, that meant they had to use dental records to identify her despite the fact she was found within hours. It also had some degree of premeditation.

A girl earlier this year, got murdered on her way home from a nightclub. She texted her boyfriend so he knew she was on her way, got a taxi, not only did she get a taxi but the driver was the father of someone she knew so not a stranger. She did everything right. He murdered her.

Joanne Yates, was sober, in her own home, wearing jeans and a jumper, she was killed - the defence is that the killer misread her signals!

A teacher a few years ago was raped murdered by her best friends boyfriend. He claimed he killed her accidently during consensual sex.

Not only were these women killed by someone they knew and trusted (except Joanne Yeates, who was still killed by a neighbour with no record), but in each case if they had just been raped and not killed, they would have been dragged through the courts, made out to be liars and the rapist walked free while whining how he was a victim of feminists.

The fact is most rapes, and most killings are committed by someone you know and trust.

ShirleyKnot Thu 20-Oct-11 11:42:20

<nods head off at Kelly2000>

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:42:24

That is not what we are saying, MrsBethel. What we are saying is that we should be careful about how we are mitigating it, so as not to push our dds from the frying pan into the fire.

Watching your drink can clearly never be dangerous advice, so I will be giving that. Always using a reputable taxi firm is another piece of advice that is unlikely to lead to anything worse.

But then there are grey areas. I would feel I might be putting my dd at risk if I told her that any male protection (friend's boyfriend, friend of friend's boyfriend, new man she had only known a few days) was safer than being on your own. Statistics show that this is precisely the kind of situation that often leads to rape. Here I don't know what I could say except "trust your instincts".

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 11:44:20

Squeaky, we cannot afford to keep seperating "stranger" and "acquaintance" rape.

The more we do so, the more harmful rape myths are perpetuated. The more rapes go unreported because women believe their reports against their partners/friends/other won't be taken seriously. The more stigmatised rape victims become.

Stop trying to seperate the two.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:44:40

The reason we are stubborn, squeaky, is because many rapes and murders are perpetrated by men who claim they are there for the woman's protection.

DuelingFanjo Thu 20-Oct-11 11:46:53

yes, great post laweasel

nokissymum Thu 20-Oct-11 11:47:02

Im not sure why people here seem to the think that educating men (for want of a better word) that women arent there to be raped AND women also to take care of themselves to avoid danger are mutually exclusive.

I dont normally agree with sqeaky's comments but she is making perfect sense here.

kelly2000 Thu 20-Oct-11 11:47:51

What peopel can argue with is the fact society is more bothered about stopping 20% of rapes than 80% of rapes, and in fact does everything it can to justify rape, even trying to differentiate it from non-consensual sex. A survey a couple of years ago revealed that one in four British people think a woman is partly to blame if she gets raped when it is dark, she is alone, she is drunk, she wears a short skirt etc. That is sick.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 11:48:24

Because the advice given, nokissymum, does not apply to the majority of rapes.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:51:44

Because some of the advice given about how to take care of yourself can easily lead to more rape, nokissymum.

"never walk alone" is not necessarily safer advice than "never let yourself be taken home by a man/men you are not absolutely sure you can trust". Many many women have been raped by the men who were walking them home precisely because they believed the way to stay safe was not to be alone.

Whatmeworry Thu 20-Oct-11 11:51:46

Because the advice given, nokissymum, does not apply to the majority of rapes

So instead of whinging about the given advice's shortfalls, suggest practical advice that should be given.

florriesdragon Thu 20-Oct-11 11:52:06

Squeaky I understand your points, really I do. But none of the anti-rape advice given to the world, is specifically anti rape. It might make you less likely to be involved in any crime from a stranger, and therefore technically any stranger rape, but it doesn't stop rapes on its own. I think that's what is working everyone up?

Yes of course it is sensible to travel in groups and watch your drinks and not get paralytic. Obviously. To stop yourself getting into a fight or getting mugged or falling in a river and drowning. Yes it is sensible advice! But that won't stop rapists. Someone who would have raped a stranger may well just rape someone they know.

Perhaps my rapists wouldn't have raped me if they had found a suitable target elsewhere? Maybe a drunk woman walking down an alleyway in high heels and a mini skirt?
Perhaps your friend would have gotten home uneventfully if her rapist had been able to slip something into someone's drink? Maybe then he would have only raped his victim rather than killing her too (sad btw)

Neither of these things would have stopped a rapist being a rapist. It just would have been someone else's problem.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 11:54:40

There is no advice. How do you prevent yourself from getting raped by someone you know and trust? That's what most rapes are. A minority are commited by strangers.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:56:33

I would say practical advice might be:

"watch your drinks"

"if you are going to take a taxi, use a reputable firm"

"travel in groups if you can"

"but make that groups of people you can trust"

"if you are in a situation where you need to get home late, ^weigh the possibilities^- do you believe the man who are offering to take you home can be trusted or might you be safer on your own?"

"trust your instincts about people and never allow yourself to go off with anyone who feels dodgy, even if (particularly if) they seem very persuasive"

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 11:57:12

but finally: if something happens, don't blame yourself- report it, report it, report it!!!

I think the sensible advice Whatmeworry should be to educate men as to what rape is and how to avoid raping someone. They are the perpetrators they can stop themselves from raping.

squeakyfreakytoy Thu 20-Oct-11 11:58:21

Thinking that someone should have made bad decision and could have made a better one, and blaming them are not the same thing at all.

If a woman was attacked walking home from a nightclub at 2am, I would not say "it is your own fault".. but I would think that if only she had stayed with her friends and not gone off on her own, that it most probably wouldnt have happened, and that she made a very big mistake by not putting more importance on her safety. I am fairly sure that the woman would be wishing she had done so too.

Yes, she could have walked off with a known male friend who could have raped her. Yes she could have gone home and her boyfriend raped her. Those are not the type of cases I am talking about though. Those are also not the cases that posters and advice to women are about. The posters and advice are more aimed at reminding women to be aware of the possible danger from strangers. And as I have said, just because it is only a small fraction of the statistics, it does still happen. Maybe the reason it is a small fraction is because more and more women do listen to the advice and do avoid being out on their own if it is possible to do so, and if the number of stranger rapes could be reduced even more, then surely that is a good thing.

florriesdragon Thu 20-Oct-11 12:00:48

Btw, in the time after I was raped, I did the exact opposite of all of the "advice" I wore practically nothing out. I was frequently very drunk and alone/in the company of one man (mainly not well known). I got in random taxis and went to random peoples houses.
I went a bit nuts TBH.

But I wasnt raped.

BECAUSE THE MEN I WAS WITH WEREN'T RAPISTS.

windsorTides Thu 20-Oct-11 12:02:07

It's astonishing to read what some posters believe, despite all the facts and evidence to the contrary.

The best way of preventing rape is to educate boys and girls and men and women about what constitutes consent. The former so that they are in no bloody doubt and the latter so that they will have the confidence and support to report rape and get justice if the worst happens.

Advising daughters about how to prevent stranger rape is like pissing in the ocean. Advising sons and daughters about protecting themselves from accidents or deliberate harm while out and about is entirely sensible, because young people of both sexes are far more likely to come to harm, with young men statistically more vulnerable to stranger violence.

kelly2000 Thu 20-Oct-11 12:03:50

so squeky, Do you think it is acceptable that hardly any advice is given to women about stopping the 80% of rapes that occur and we shoudl instea docncentrate on the 20% of stranger rapes. Educating men that sex without consent is rape will stop a huge amount of rapes. As long as rapists do not consider themselves rapist they will continue to rape thinking they have not done anythign wrong.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon Thu 20-Oct-11 12:04:15

Well said, Cory.

I also think it's important the same advice gets given to our DS's.

It's also important our sons are taught about consent, and how it should be active, enthusiastic and not coerced.

nokissymum Thu 20-Oct-11 12:04:39

I think she already made herself quite clear, that this may not apply in many other cases, personally i feel some of her advice would! But the point is if it helps one person then its been worth it.

MrsBethel Thu 20-Oct-11 12:05:53

"And you still haven'explained how to reduce the risk of being raped by a male friend/boyfriend/husband/brother/other..."

I honestly don't know what a person can do to reduce that risk.

NambaJam Thu 20-Oct-11 12:10:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

SinicalSal Thu 20-Oct-11 12:18:22

that's the trouble though.

It plays into the stereotype that real rape is the stranger jumping out of the alley and that 80% + of the rapes that happen aren't rapes at all. So the women internalise the damage/blame themselves/don't report/don't get help for the trauma and are left floundering alone because they think 'I'm overreacting, it wsn't really rape'.
And a greater number of men think 'Rapists are scum, I'd never jump out at someone from an alley. But if she's kissing me all she needs is a bit of persuasion/a few vodka and cokes will loosen her up/well it's a grey area, isn't it? Not rape.'
So that's the danger as I see it. The benefits of Don't Get Raped tips - and there are some, of course - are outweighed by the negatives. Don't Get Too Pissed In Case You Wander Into Any Sort Of Trouble, would be ok, imo.

Tcanny Thu 20-Oct-11 12:19:17

NambaJam. I asked you to back that acusation up on another thread. Im guessing you are referring to my post on a thread about sexomnia?

In no way is my having a managed medical condition tantamount to being a rapist. I do see from other posts you have made that you seem to enjoy courting attention to say the least.

If anyone wants to know what this poster is refering to: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1249070-Feel-sick-after-reading-this/AllOnOnePage

I hope I will be forgiven for linking to another thread but I think it is reasonable for people to see the intent behind the acusation.

Tcanny Thu 20-Oct-11 12:22:20

My tolerance for rape is non existant.

And any man male who brags, jokes or makes my opinion of him go down very fast.

Consent for me is a very big issue as NambaJam has just reminded me. As a person who has sexomnia I have to be very very careful what I do and it has made me hyper aware of consent.

florriesdragon Thu 20-Oct-11 12:27:57

Tcanny, I've read the other thread before. I don't agree that you are a rapist. You could be if you slept with someone without telling them about your sexsomnia.
But if my partner was thrashing about having a dream, that wouldn't make him an abuser if he hit me.

Should never need to be used as a defence for rape though. As you do, sexsomnics shouldn't put themselves in a position that they could rape.

cory Thu 20-Oct-11 12:28:08

"Those are also not the cases that posters and advice to women are about. The posters and advice are more aimed at reminding women to be aware of the possible danger from strangers."

That is precisely what we worry about, squeaky. That concentrating the warnings on a less likely scenario is increasing the risk from the more likely scenario.

A bit as if I advised my dd to swim the river on her way home to save her from being run over by cars and when the dangers were pointed out to me kept repeating "but I am not talking about the dangers of drowning, I am talking about the dangers from cars".

Imo the best way to decrease risk would be for posters to be aimed at encouraging women to report rape. This can only happen if they are reassured that they will not be blamed for the incident because of where they were or what they wore.

More women saying "it wasn't my fault"= "more rapists reported to the police"= "more rapists behind bars"= "a safer world for all of us".

Whatmeworry Thu 20-Oct-11 12:31:50

Thanks Cory, I've found your posts helpful and practical.

kelly2000 Thu 20-Oct-11 12:41:00

A small minority of people who get lung cancer have never smoked, even passively. Does that mean we should concentrate on thse cases, and not bother about informing people of the dangers of smoking and in fact enocurga epeopel to think smoking does not cause lung cancer?

Also if a sexsomnia wakes up during having sex with someone and carries on they are a rapist. If a sexsomniac sleeps in a house wiht someone without telling them they have sexsomnia and they have non-consensual sex with them, they are a rapist as they knew they could do this and were reckless as to whether it happened.

MrSpoc Thu 20-Oct-11 16:10:46

NambaJam what a low sly dig you just did.

I re-read that thread and belive it is a "get out of jail free card" for Monsters but in your case Tcanny i belive you not a Rapist and in fact take reasonable steps to help yourself.

NambaJam Thu 20-Oct-11 18:04:45

I stand by my opinion of him. To ME sexomniac = rapist

NambaJam Thu 20-Oct-11 18:05:24

And I dont see why Tcanny should have input on this thread

catgirl1976 Thu 20-Oct-11 18:07:29

Erm, my DH has sexsomnia namba. Should I let him know he is a rapist and then call the police?

just shows your level of ignorance Namba.

Tcanny Thu 20-Oct-11 18:10:26

Don't bother responding more to her catgirl. Its pure attention seeking and im not willing to further let her hijack this thread for her own amusement.

Any and all tools that can be used to prevent rape/promote awarenes of rape are all good in my book.

This leaflet is worth sticking in the blokes toilets of bars.

limitedperiodonly Thu 20-Oct-11 18:26:31

in the time after I was raped, I did the exact opposite of all of the "advice" I wore practically nothing out. I was frequently very drunk and alone/in the company of one man (mainly not well known). I got in random taxis and went to random peoples houses.
I went a bit nuts TBH.

But I wasnt raped.

BECAUSE THE MEN I WAS WITH WEREN'T RAPISTS.

I had exactly the same experience Florrie apart from the bit about being raped. I'm very sorry for you but you could never have known.

I don't understand what some men and women find so hard about this to understand. Their fear, superstition and obstinacy makes me very angry.

All men are not rapists. Some men are. Let's call the rapists and their apologists on it.

NinkyNonker Thu 20-Oct-11 19:03:43

Namba you are hijacking a thread that a lot of people have poured a lot of private detail into, that's not on. I disagree with you too, I can be quite violent in my sleep (night terrors amongst other things) but that doesn't make me violent or guilty of assaulting DH.

limitedperiodonly Thu 20-Oct-11 19:19:15

namba you are hijacking the thread. Please desist. There's a dear.

NambaJam Thu 20-Oct-11 20:19:46

How lovely ..... defend the rapist sexomniac.

Funny how he accuses me of hijacking then 2 other jump in.

JanHal Thu 20-Oct-11 23:31:03

Namba

1) You are hijacking a thread.
2) You have seemingly killed of an active thread that was discussing a serious issue
3) You are launching personal attacks on another poster and that is grossly unfair.

For fucks sake grow up and stop being an attention seeking twunt.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 00:23:20

From your thread Tcanny:

"Also I will not sleep in a room with someone I would not be happy to have sex with (I only sleep in a room with my wife now)."

Because wives can't be raped, right? Well that's what they used to believe in the olden days (twenty years ago).

I can't believe this person is being given the time of day on a thread about rape. Notice how he can only see it from his point of view. How his wife feels about someone who has rapesomnia (sexsomnia is innacurate) isn't even discussed.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 00:26:16

No 7 on the leaflet list Tcanny

"remember it's not sex with someone who is asleep or unconscious, it's RAPE"

DioneTheDiabolist Fri 21-Oct-11 00:34:45

I love this. It's brilliant. Take it. Hand it out. It's dispells all the stupid defenses the legal profession make to get rapists off.

I dress in short shorts and bra tops. My clothes are my business. (Are they notconfused)
I have sex when and with whom I want when I want (No?)
The fact that I do these things does not mean that a rapist has the right to rape me.

It is not my responsibility to ensure that I am not raped.
Rape is the fault of the perpetrator, no one else.

DioneTheDiabolist Fri 21-Oct-11 00:44:29

Is this available in pdf format that I can print off and give to the clients who come to me racked with guilt because they were raped or sexually assaulted?

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 00:48:02
DioneTheDiabolist Fri 21-Oct-11 01:11:51

I love this on so many levels.

1. It places the blame for rape on rapists, not women
2. It places the blame for rape on rapists, not men.
3. It places the blame for rape on rapists, not on situation.
4. It places the blame for rape on rapists, not on alcohol/substances.
5. It places the blame for rape on rapists, not on clothes.

If you rape, it is because you are a rapist. It is totally your fault.

NinkyNonker Fri 21-Oct-11 07:47:38

I welcome Tcanny's input, and I speak as someone who admitted 'publically' to have been raped for the first time on this thread. Don't spoil what has been an interesting discussion with personal attacks.

Tcanny Fri 21-Oct-11 09:36:29

Now thats a great way to launch an attack Thunder, take 1 sentence and use it out of context to back up an argument that realy dosent exist.

Bearing in mind that my wife knew about my sexomnia before we ever shared a room or had sex with each other, and also gave prior consent to anything happening while I was asleep. (unfortunatly she isnt a member on here or Im very sure she would love to let you know her views). We all know that wives can and are raped, usualy by controlling weak minded males who use sex as a tool to dominate.

Lack of consent = rape

I also wonder if you would accuse some of the female sufferers of this condition of sexual assault? (yes women are sufferers too)

As I have already said I have become very aware of consent. And in my case the need to ensure consent before I can even share a room with another person. To do anything else would be unnaceptable. I dont take chances with other peoples lives and wellbeing. That includes not sleeping at friends houses unless I know Im in a room by myself and a whole load of other self imposed conditions (both at home and elsewhere)

I hadnt intended discussing sexomnia on this thread. But it has certain points relevant to consent and the need to be doubly careful.

SolidGoldVampireBat Fri 21-Oct-11 10:12:19

THunder: Tcanny says his wife choosewhether to sleep in the same room as him or whether to sleep in a separate room with a locked door and does the latter on nights when she doesn't want sex. Given that this condition exists I think Tcanny is taking all reasonable steps to cope with it and his wife has always had the option of leaving him/not marrying him in the first place.

Tcanny Fri 21-Oct-11 10:26:50

SGB - no need for a lock as I dont ever leave the room Im in and have never left the bed. Separate room is intentional overkill.

Not always her in the other room if she goes to bed before me and says "I want a peaceful nights sleep" then is me in the other room.

thunder - yes the posts I have made are from my point of view. Funny that as we are each talking from our own points of view on this thread. And the thread you are referring to I was sharing my own experiences and views like everyone else there.

MrSpoc Fri 21-Oct-11 10:49:53

NambaJam GROW UP. He is only a rapist if he RAPED someone.

MrSpoc Fri 21-Oct-11 10:56:44

thunderboltsandlightning - Oh dear.

JanHal Fri 21-Oct-11 11:01:26

NinkyNonker : Well done on going public about having been raped. Being open about having been raped was one of the best things I have ever done.

Tcanny : I definitely do not see you as a rapist simply because you have a medical condition that means you have sex in your sleep. And to be honest I applaud your honesty in talking things out with people before you share a room with them.

What I have seen is a poster who has faced hostility, personal attacks and misquoting. And im starting to wonder if it is because he is a man who has dared to post on a thread about rape? If that is the case then we are really not helping ourselves here. Men need to be involved and discussing rape in an open and thought provoking way.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:07:53

There is no such thing as prior consent. Consent has to be sought at every stage and over and over again. Women do not give blanket consent to be raped because some man with a "medical condition" has decided that he'll share a room with them, because he doesn't mind having "sex" with them (and it's what he wants that counts).

It is shocking that on a thread about rape that a man comes on here who admits that he penetrates his wife whilst she is sleeping, and has possibly done this to other women is being given a warm welcome. How do you think women who have been raped by men who do this kind of thing feel about that.

Rapists lie about what they do. It is not a complicated concept.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:09:18

Also I notice it's the women who are challenging the man who does something like this who are being attacked, not the man himself.

He sticks his penis into a sleeping non-consenting woman - no problem!

Rindercella Fri 21-Oct-11 11:10:44

<wonders vaguely if Thunderbolt and namba would ever be seen in the same room together>

It sounds to me Tcanny that you have been incredibly responsible given your condition and it must make life challenging for you at times.

JanHal Fri 21-Oct-11 11:14:58

Rindercella - Im thinking along those lines too.

thunder - His wife has also decided that she wants to share a room with him! Or does that not count to you?

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:16:01

Continuing the attacks on me and Namba, not the man who penetrates sleeping women including his wife. Good for you Rindercella.

It's a great world for rapists if they just get pats on the head about how responsible they are. And no it isn't challenging not to sleep in the same room as a woman, any woman, if you're planning on raping them during sleep. Just don't do it.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:17:48

When women are raped by their husbands, quite a number are unable to acknowledge that that's what's going on Jan. You'll see a number of threads on here where women have been raped whilst sleeping by their husbands or partners and hesitate to call it rape. There are also plenty of handmaidens standing by to tell them it wasn't rape too.

NinkyNonker Fri 21-Oct-11 11:19:09

That's hardly what has happened here, I see no 'handmaidens'...or have you not read the whole thread?!

Rindercella Fri 21-Oct-11 11:20:13

But Thunderbolt I do not believe that Tcanny is doing anything wrong. He is not a rapist. And your namba's earlier post was deleted for stating as much. His wife knows about his medical condition and yet still chooses to share a bed with him.

You are being deliberately obtuse which is a shame as it is distracting from the real point of this thread which is to hold rapists wholly responsible for raping women.

JanHal Fri 21-Oct-11 11:22:17

thunder - If I had a partner who has this condition I would not hesitate to sleep next to him or her. I would be pretty pissed of if he didnt tell me before hand but yes I would base consent on prior permission. And if I didnt want to be bothered in the night I would either sleep in another room or ask him to.

No it is NOT rape. You are using a medical condition to attempt to drive a man off of this thread and possibly MN as well. You never answered the question asked about female sufferers either.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:24:07

Rindercella, Tcanny admits to penetrating women whilst they are sleeping.

What do you think that activity is called in real life?

Everybody will find a way to make excuses for rapists. It's appalling.

NinkyNonker Fri 21-Oct-11 11:26:31

I find that hugely insulting given the context of this thread. Please engage brain/empathy before posting.

kelly2000 Fri 21-Oct-11 11:26:42

Tcanny,
You made a point of saying because of your sexsomnia you only share a room with people you want to have sex with. Do not blame people for repeating it.
And why has this thread about rape been hijacked to talk about how some men cannot be blamed for rape because they have sexsomnia. Once again a way has been found to make sure everyone knows that rapists can sometimes be the victims. Heaven forbid a thread about rape actually focuses on the real victims of rape.

If you have sexsomnia and chose to sleep in a house without telling the other occupants you might have non-consensual sex with them, and you do in fact have non-consensual sex with them, you are a rapist, legally and morally.

giyadas Fri 21-Oct-11 11:33:32

Actually I find Tcanny's participation on this thread insulting. It's crass in the extreme.
And I suspect the motives of a man with sexomnia joining a mums forum to talk about it.

Rindercella Fri 21-Oct-11 11:35:30

Kelly, Tcanny has stated several times that he does not sleep in a house without telling people he is sharing with that he has this condition. He has stated that he told his wife of his condition prior to them staying in the same house. And he now only shares a room with his wife (when she wants him to) because, presumably, he is allowed to actually want sex with his wife. Or does wanting to have sex with his wife make him a rapist too?

Please namba thunder kelly, please do not hijack this thread and make it about one specific man. A man who has been incredibly honest about the condition he and his wife have to live with. Many other posters have requested the same from you. Please could you respect that?

Tianc Fri 21-Oct-11 11:38:11

"If you have sexsomnia and chose to sleep in a house without telling the other occupants you might have non-consensual sex with them, and you do in fact have non-consensual sex with them, you are a rapist, legally and morally."

And how does this apply to Tcanny, who clearly has told the other occupant, discussed consent and how it will work, and come to a a practical arrangement to make sure non-consensual sex doesn't happen?

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:38:45

Yup givadas, talking about it is a veiled threat as far as I'm concerned.

Rape goes virtually unpunished in this country and rapists are very often supported or excuses are found for them. "Sexsomnia", more accurately entitled "rapesomnia" is one of the latest. Fine for the guy, fine for the women sucking up to him and sympathising, not so fine for the woman who wakes up to find herself being penetrated. But who cares about her?

Tcanny Fri 21-Oct-11 11:38:53

Kelly

You might be suprised to know that I agree with your point about sleeping in close proximity to someone who dosent know about my sexomnia. And that is why I dont let that happen.

If I have sex with someone who has not made it clear that sex is welcome then it is rape. Pure and simple!

But it is not rape when a person gives very explicit consent previously to sex taking place. And that consent can be withdrawn at any time, and if withdrawn nothing is risked ( One of us is not in the room with the other)

I came to this thread to discuss rape in a sensible and adult manner. Unfortunatly another poster decided to launch a personal attack and that is what has derailed this thread.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:42:53

You derailed the thread Tcanny.

Your presence here is very likely to be a trigger for women who have been raped whilst they were sleeping.

If you had any compunction about your "condition", you wouldn't be here trying to inject yourself into this thread, but you appear not to be interested in how you might make anyone else feel, especially victims of rape.

Rindercella Fri 21-Oct-11 11:43:37

Tcanny's first post on this thread was:

"Hate to say this as a bloke, BUT THAT POSTER IS VALID.

It boils down to if she hasn't said yes then you are being a rapist. And this poster places responsibility right where it should lie. WITH MEN MALES WHO THINK THEY CAN JUSTIFY RAPE I point blank refuse to call a rapist a man.

Actualy pretty thought provoking OP"

Several posts later namba came along and called him a rapist.

Tcanny's first (and subsequent) posts are not insensitive at all. He is someone who has very good reason for understanding the importance of consent. I have valued his input on this thread and not found his presence crass at all. And, under a namechange (can't be bothered to change back) I posted a personal experience on here too.

StewieGriffinsMom Fri 21-Oct-11 11:44:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:46:21

Rindercella, are you really not aware that rapists are often very outspoken about rape and how wrong it is - just not the kind of rape they commit. It's a smokescreen and an attempt to distract.

For all your cynicism (the accusations of sock-puppetry are incorrect, you'll need to accept that more than one person can disagree with you) you're being very naive about this.

kelly2000 Fri 21-Oct-11 11:50:23

Tcanny is the one who has hijacked the thread to talk about his condition in the context of rape. i seem to think he has done this on other threads. There is no reason for him to come on her to talk about sexsomnia yet again. He certainly did nto come on her to desicuss rape in a sensible and adult matter, he came on to harp on about his condition again. It does not add anything to the disccussion about getting society to concentrate on telling men not to have non-consensual sex with people.

And in actual fact if someone has given prior consent it is rape if they do not give consent at the time and the entire time penetration takes place. The only way you could get away with it is by using the sexsomnia as a defence, you could not give their prior consent as a defence.

JanHal Fri 21-Oct-11 11:53:31

It wasn't Tcanny that brought the subject to this thread but a poster who's original post was so far out of line that it was deleted by mumsnet.

I second NinkyNonker when I say he is welcome here

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 11:53:58

You can't consent whilst you are sleeping. Thus it's impossible to give prior consent.

Rape in marriage does happen. Women in the situation often go into denial because they will have to upset the whole of their lives if they face what is going on, also the view that men have the right to access their wives' bodies is one that dies hard amongst both men and women.

That would be one thing that I would say this pamphlet is missing, it seems to focus on acquaintance rape or stranger rape. "Don't rape your wife" should be on it.

catgirl1976 Fri 21-Oct-11 12:06:31

My DH has sexsomnia. He does not sleep anywhere near anyone but me to ensure safety.

I am fully aware of his condition. Because I understand his condition, love him, trust him and enjoy sex with him, if he has sex with me whilst I am asleep it is NOT rape as he has my prior, full and on-going consent. I always wake up during the sex and enjoy it.

I am aware that rape does happen within marriages, however this is not it.

I have no desire to bang on about sexsomnia either, but just to clarify, it is possible to give prior consent. My husband has my full consent at all times. If I need to change that for any reason (ie after childbirth) we will work together as a couple to come up with a solution.

kelly2000 Fri 21-Oct-11 12:15:55

You cannot give prior consent that is considered valid later on, but if you consent you consent i.e for rape to occur they must be penertration where the man knows you do not consent or is reckless as to whether you consent, AND when you do not consent. So if he has sex with you believing you do not consent and in fact you did, it is not rape, and if you are asleep, but consent then it is not rape. But the proir consent does not make a difference as if you changed your mind it would be rape even if you consented when sex began.

giyadas Fri 21-Oct-11 12:23:47

yes, it is, sorry SGM.

Lots of girls grow up being told not to walk about after dark, beware of strange men etc. It's made clear that they are vulnerable and shouldn't take risks. Therefore any campaign focused entirely on girls are likely to be redundant as there's little chance they haven't heard it all before.
People do seem more reluctant to aim campaigns at men's behaviour for fear of causing offence. This one seems to be received quite well, perhaps because of the jokey manner.
Wasn't sure about posting this link here, but I think it really shows where efforts should be focused in order to get any king of result. the bro code ; how contemporary culture creates sexist men TRIGGER WARNING especially at 4;20.
In this culture posters are going to have minimal effect regardless of who they're aimed at.

And as WindsorTides said on the other thread "we can do something about it"
The turning of women into sex objects has been achieved drip by drip, no we can't stop it immediately, but we can stop it drip by drip. By focusing on mens behaviour and the way boys are socialised.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 12:26:19

Do you really not mind your husband penetrating you when you are fast asleep cat?

I don't think it has anything to do with sex. You have to be awake to have sex.

Basically you're saying your body is available to him at all times. Which underlines my point was about how many men and women believe that husbands have rights over their wives bodies.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 12:27:57

"we can stop it drip by drip. By focusing on mens behaviour and the way boys are socialised."

And yet on this thread where a man is admitting to penetrating his wife when she is asleep, it is called derailing to challenge him.

giyadas Fri 21-Oct-11 12:34:39

Best to ignore and try and get the thread back on track, thunderbolt.
But yes, I understand what you mean.

StewieGriffinsMom Fri 21-Oct-11 12:35:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 12:37:21

But it's not off track.

This poster is about challenging men who rape (penetrate women without consent). We've got a man here who penetrates his wife whilst sleeping and sees nothing wrong with it.

The original question was should this leaflet be handed out to the public. Judging by some of the responses here the answer is yes.

StewieGriffinsMom Fri 21-Oct-11 12:37:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 12:43:57

The problem with "yes means yes" is that it conflates rape with sex, as if what was rape can be changed to sex with the addition of the word yes. We can see it on this thread where men who penetrate sleeping women can have their behaviour excused by the woman supposedly giving a prior "yes'.

"Yes means yes" still keeps the focus on what the woman is doing and saying rather than looking at the rapist behaviour, which is what the Rape Crisis poster does.

StewieGriffinsMom Fri 21-Oct-11 12:59:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SolidGoldVampireBat Fri 21-Oct-11 13:47:43

'Yes means yes' is actually very important as it makes it clear that women can and do freely consent to sex when they want sex, and it emphasies the idea of enthusiastic participation and sex as a collaborative pleasure. Even some people who oppose the idea of rape are still starting from the mindset that women don't like sex and that they 'give it' to men who 'get it' from them. THis helps rapists and rape apologists hang on to the idea that a woman who is lying there saying nothing or even silently crying is not actually unconsenting because she hasn't actually said no whereas the Yes Means Yes viewpoint is that if the other person isn't displaying enjoyment and enthusiasm then there's something wrong and sex should stop instantly.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 13:49:44

It still promotes the idea that rape is the result of some kind of confusion on the part of the rapist, like he couldn't really know that his victim didn't like or want what he was doing, and that he wasn't aware that he was harming her. Nothing could be further from the truth. Rapists act with the intent to hurt.

SolidGoldVampireBat Fri 21-Oct-11 13:53:19

Yes, they do act with the intent to hurt, but in a culture which accepts that enthusiastic participation is the bare minimum you can expect from a sexual encounter the rapist who tries to excuse himself on the grounds that 'she didn't say no' will not get any sympathy.

kelly2000 Fri 21-Oct-11 13:57:28

Yes, there is this idea that men cannot understand the fact thta a woman can say yes to sex, they seem to be told that women pretend they do nto want sex so they have to look for hidden codes like short skirts. A female writer in the guardian complained about the slutwalks saying she wished these women would understand how confusing it is for young men to know if they want sex!!! Considering in any one night a woman may pass tens of men, do they really honestly believe these women are consenting to have sex with every single one of them just because she is wearing a short skirt. It really is as if the idea of a woman having sexual preferences for a particular man is foreign to them as obviously no woman really finds sex attractive.

giyadas Fri 21-Oct-11 14:27:57

and to add on to Kelly's post, if women do show an interest in sex then they are often still denounced as sluts. No win. This is particularly insidious as it means women, especially young women who may not be that confident, are stopped from expressing their sexuality.

SGM - I agree it would be good to try and start an MN campaign.

'yes means yes' is good as long as the message is very explicit in what it means. No means no changed from what should have been a very clear message to being used to excuse the rape of unconscious women, or women too scared to actually say the word no. The difficulty is finding something that can't be twisted like that. Slogans can be great, but they can be prone to being twisted due to being too simplistic.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 14:29:38

How about "Don't rape women or girls". That's more to the point.

giyadas Fri 21-Oct-11 14:37:17

<black-humoured laugh>
Great slogan. Cue the flurry of posts from offended men.

giyadas Fri 21-Oct-11 14:39:23

There's no getting around it, if we want to make any difference then mens feelings can't be the main consideration.

Wooooooooooooooppity Fri 21-Oct-11 14:48:13

"Don't rape women or girls" will have the wotaboutthemenz contingent hopping mad because, well, wotaboutthemenz who get raped and men get raped too you know, so let's concentrate on them, because the tiny number of rape victims who are male, deserve much greater attention than the much greater proportion of female victims because unless they are in prison, they don't really deserve it and it isn't what they're for wheareas with females... etc. etc.

MrSpoc Fri 21-Oct-11 14:48:48

I think you are just generalising all men now.

We do not look for hiden meaning and if my wife comes on to me I do not call her a slut.

Rape is wrong Simple.

ShazMiffedWithPpl Fri 21-Oct-11 14:51:34

And mens feelings are not the main consideration.

But I have read over my husbands shoulder and watched some of you attempt to savage him on here.

HE posted on here with a sensible post and was called a rapist.

He is actually not particularly fussed about being called a name. But I am fucking enraged at the behaviour of some of you on this thread. Right up to the point where I have created an account of my own and am here to state that I do consent to having sex with my sleeping husband.

I am awake well before he penetrates me and can easily give him a shove and a bugger off if I so chose. I welcome his sleeping sexy side as he has sex in a very different way to when he is awake. Not better sex just different sex.

Well now you know how I feel. hopefully this can be the end of it and this thread can get back to something akin to sense.

Catgirl1976 drop me a line dear you and I could probably share a few laughs.

LaWeasel Fri 21-Oct-11 14:55:55

To be fair, men do get raped. I'm not saying we should obsess about that, but it's a bit daft to exclude them.

I prefer "don't rape anyone."

Get's the point across fairly nicely.

And something that talks about consent. But tricky to work out how and have it be catchy.

ElaineReese Fri 21-Oct-11 14:59:00

Yes, good, let's get back to the conversation we were having before.

Agree that 'yes means yes' is not quite free from the idea it's all about perception and confusion - poor men didn't know that no means no, let's clear that up, sort of thing.

Wooooooooooooooppity Fri 21-Oct-11 15:00:23

But LaWeasel, when men are raped, unless they are in prison, other men don't make excuses for their rapists. Neither do women.

Whereas when women get raped, all sorts of excuses are brought forth.

And also, men generally don't have any confusion whatsoever when they are raping other men. Whereas when they rape women, apparently they're confused about it and can't be expected to know it's rape.

So there are massive differences between the rape of men and women and the message can't be the same about both because the two are treated entirely differently in our culture and in our legal system

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 15:02:07

Well said Wooopity.

Also if men want to start a campaign against other men raping them, no one's stopping them.

Tianc Fri 21-Oct-11 15:03:08

Shaz, thanks for signing in.

Can you talk us through consent from your husband's side. Because IIUC, you end up having sex where you are awake – and therefore able to consent or not – but he is asleep, and therefore cannot give consent.

Do you between you decide that prior consent (by deciding to sleep in the same room that night) is sufficient?

Or do you go with kelly's claim that there can never be any such thing as prior consent wrt sex? In which case, how do you solve the problem that for him, the sex is non-consensual?

LaWeasel Fri 21-Oct-11 15:05:21

I think it's an argument that will be lost on most people and not really worth persuing.

If you deliberately exclude men from the do-not-rape message then the debate about the difference between men and women being raped will always become the main thing debated.

I'd rather people debated how crap don't-get-raped advice is, consent etc.

catgirl1976 Fri 21-Oct-11 15:07:39

"thunderbolts* - I really don't mind being pentrated by my husband when I am asleep.

In our relationship, sex isn't something he "does to me", it is a mutual, physical celebration of our love for each other. It is mutually pleasurable and enjoyable. I always wake up during the sex, fairly early on to be honest and honestly cannot think of a more beautiful way to be woken up.

I have a higher sex drive than DH anyway so for me its extra sex which is a bonus. He is actually more affectionate in his sleep than awake and the sex is not violent or aggresive. It's lovely and affectionate and I really, really enjoy. I like the lack of inhibition as well.

I really think that claiming this is rape, aside from being offensive to myself and my DH is offensive to women who have been raped.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Fri 21-Oct-11 15:14:51

Can we try not to derail a really good thread with a very narrow discussion.

ShazMiffedWithPpl Fri 21-Oct-11 15:14:52

Im with you there catgirl. Sex is rather uninhibited and rather fun. As DH has already stated if I decided that I dont want to be disturbed then the rather comfy spare room comes in. And if I decided at the time that I dont want sex then a good push and a no deals with that nicely.

Tianc : from the perspective you mention then yes it is actually me who is relying on prior consent. Seem to me that we have worked out a very organic way of working with what nature has placed in our relationship.

ShazMiffedWithPpl Fri 21-Oct-11 15:15:39

My input here is done with now folks

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 15:17:45

Do you understand that these two sentences completely contradict each other cats?

""thunderbolts* - I really don't mind being pentrated by my husband when I am asleep."

"In our relationship, sex isn't something he "does to me""

Clearly some of the time sex is something he does to you, given that you're asleep when he's doing it. When does he wake up BTW? Does the sex immediately change?

kelly2000 Fri 21-Oct-11 15:18:07

tianc,
It is not just me claiming this, it is the law. If prior consent was enough, it would mean that if a woman changed her mind during sex it would be Ok for the man to carry on. The law says consent has to be present at the time and for the duration and if there is no such consent and the man knows there is no consent or is reckless to it then it is rape.

JanHal Fri 21-Oct-11 15:20:28

Well I think that clears a few things up.

As to the OP I think the leaflet should be printed by the ton and widely distributed. Follow it up with some other hard hitting info directed at rapists themselves.

Hopefully that will start to shift perceptions a little so that our rather shabby legal system will deal with rapists in a strong manner.

mummery Fri 21-Oct-11 15:38:20

I took my 8yr old DS to see 'The Three Musketeers' this week. Cinema full of kids, as you'd expect.

Joke from the character Porthos, who is advising the young D'Artagnan about how to deal with the women of Paris:

"They have so many ways of saying 'No', and only some of those mean 'Yes'."

WRT changing societal attitudes towards the act of rape and the treatment of rape victims, we have such a long way to go, it's terrifying sad

Wooooooooooooooppity Fri 21-Oct-11 15:46:37

Can people please not post things like: "calling this sort of rape rape (when the law states it is) insults real rape victims".

There are plenty of real rape victims on this thread and lurking, who would call this sort of rape rape, as does the law. No-one is saying that you have to dob your DH's to the rozzers, if you're happy to be technically raped, that's your choice - but don't tell other women that it doesn't count as rape if it happens to them and they don't want it to.

I'm also curious as to the legal status of having sex with someone who is a sexsomniac - isn't that sexual abuse, technically? If you willingly went along with being penetrated by someone who was asleep while he was penetrating you, couldn't he have you arrested for sexual assault the next morning? I'm not suggesting that would happen in the cases of the posters here, but I'm just thinking of the technical legal situation in a hypothetical case.

Sorry it's a bit derailing isn't it, just think it's worth mentioning.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 15:49:47

I think the only people who are actually asleep are the women being penetrated.

The sexsomniacs are lying in order to get away with some seriously creepy (criminal) behaviour.

It's not derailing on a thread about holding men who rape accountable for rape to examine ways people find to excuse them for their actions.

Wooooooooooooooppity Fri 21-Oct-11 15:57:59

I must admit, it's a new excuse phenomenon isn't it?

I once had a lover who used to get erections in his sleep and push against me - but he was asleep, so I had the inconvenience of being woken up but certainly not being penetrated - he would have had to position himself and me quite carefully in his sleep to do that.

Hmmmmm....

Whatmeworry Fri 21-Oct-11 16:05:33

This whole Sexomnia issue hijacking this thread is a red herring. If their DP's are not protesting - the opposite seems the case on this thread in fact - then it is not rape. Calling it so to just makes you look totally irrational, and that is not helpful.

kelly2000 Fri 21-Oct-11 16:12:36

the sexsomnia that we hear about in courts (not here) seem to be very unusual as as well as the sex whilst sleeping, they are also different from other sleepwalkers in that they continue to stay asleep despite the fact their victim is yelling screaming and fighting back. Contrast that to the partners on here who say they can push their sexsomniac partners away easily. Also some of the people who have been acquitted after using the sexsomniac defence have never actually suffered from it before, and in one case the guys girlfriend admitted he had never had sex with her whilst asleep before. It is also funny that despite the fact there have been several cases where there was a lot of male and female potential victims in the house (one case was at a house party), there has never been a case in court of a straight male being accused of raping, or attempting to rape another male in his sleep.

MonstrouslyNarkyPuffin Fri 21-Oct-11 16:21:14

I know it's a totally valid thing to discuss. I know it's not in any way an attempt to derail. It's just that it's a very specific issue that is related to but not directly about the issues in the OP. If you want to talk about it here, fine, but it probably deserves a thread of it's own.

JanHal Fri 21-Oct-11 16:25:49

kelly : you might just have hit the nail squarely on the head there. What we have heard here sounds to me like the reality of sexomnia, ie a manageable condition that with a few very basic precautions is not causing anyone harm.

What so often seems to come up in the courts are people using supposed sexomnia as an excuse to get away with a criminal act. Unfortunatly a lot of people seem to be unable to separate the the two groups in their minds. And that is doing disservice to those men who have this condition and manage it perfectly well, and their partners who know the reality rather than the bullshit used to get away with rape.

Now to find a way of holding those rapists who are exploiting genuine sufferers to account.

JanHal Fri 21-Oct-11 16:27:17

A thread to discuss this would in essence be ideal. (but would turn into a shouting match Im sure)

Rollon2012 Fri 21-Oct-11 16:41:02

I think perhaps is the sexosomnia discussion wants to be continued perhaps another thread needs to be opened seems to have derailed.

to be sensitive to other posters where someone may have used that as excuse

However the same goes for the poster who claim this person is using it as an excuse when it was another poster who originally brought it up and frankly has dealt with some abusive posts in a quite dignified way.

catgirl1976 Fri 21-Oct-11 17:26:02

I am sorry to mention it again, but I must take issue with something wooooopity has said.

don't tell other women that it doesn't count as rape if it happens to them and they don't want it to.

they key is the wanting it to. If they don't want it to happen then that's very different from a situation where you are happy for it to happen and that's the difference.

I was violently (and anally) raped by an ex partner. I think I know the difference between my husband making love to me in his sleep having fully disclosed a condition I am happy to live with and that.

heleninahandcart Fri 21-Oct-11 17:28:41

[[ to all of you who have shared their rape experiences on here]] and thank you all.

Your bravery enabled me to tell of my experiences for the first time ever. I deliberately didn't name change to make it real to anyone else who 'knows' me on here, and also to make real to me.

I do hope all the lurkers who have recognised their own experiences have been able to take some comfort from knowing they are not alone.

thunderboltsandlightning Fri 21-Oct-11 18:01:41

Catgirl that is very disturbing that you were raped before and now your husband is penetrating you whilst you were sleeping.