being exposed at, by men? in new job.

(362 Posts)
altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:05:39

started a new job as a cleaner in a factory, all good,however job is shite, unchallenged, under paid, and completely repetitive. (selling this job aren't I grin (no offence to anybody who has this job, but completely opposite from previous career).

Anyway cleaning changing facilities, and men coming in, with trousers unzipped and knob out, heading for urinals, or I am cleaning in changing rooms, and they are using urinals hmm hmm angry I think I must have seen about 20 Willy's since Ive been there.

Ive complained to my manger, who says write it down in complaints book, we'll see factory bosses about it, at next meeting, been going on for 3 weeks now, hmm [TWAT]

Ended up breaking down crying to colleagues last night, Ive only ever wanted to see dh penis, Ive only ever had sex with dh willingly, and have no desire to be exposed to at this way.

we are contractors brought in for this companies cleaning, I am thinking presumably they do not want to lose contract, I cant see any factory managers, as they finish well before I start.

My manager isn't taking it seriously, and I am supervisor on site, so I have no idea what to do. hmm any ideas.

would you be offended upset and being treated like this?, (Am looking for new job, preferably back in career tbh, as dont get treated like scum) sad.

worraliberty Fri 07-Oct-11 22:08:07

Don't you put yellow cones across the door to let them know you're in there?

aldiwhore Fri 07-Oct-11 22:09:41

I thwunk a yellow cone somewhere...

OP YANBU to expect some kind of courtesy/protection.. if signs are in place whilst you're cleaning, then its totally out of order.

I don't know exact rules, legalities, but I strongly suspect that its not actually part of your job requirement to put up with seeing any genitalia.

hiddenhome Fri 07-Oct-11 22:11:29

It wouldn't bother me tbh, but I'm a nurse and used to seeing these things. It's just another part of the body (only less pretty) as far as I'm concerned.

dementedma Fri 07-Oct-11 22:11:52

stare pointedly and say "would you mind putting that away until I have finished here?"
Threaten to report offenders for sexual harrassment,
Make sure staff know allocated time for loo cleaning and that the loo is out of bounds for that period.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:12:19

yes, but as there is a shift change at my working times, (changing rooms has lockers etc...) the men need there belongings to get home.

I have spoken to the team leader, (a woman) but she cant to anything, expect leave a note in the complaints book hmm, which apparently gets reviewed every few months.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 22:13:08

They arent coming in to flash at you, they are coming in to pee.

Its not right and they are probably as embarassed as you when they see you (at least some of them) but its not sexual.

Your company should have a policy on this - and it might well be based around the dignity of the men as well as the staff. If a cleaner of the opposite sex is in toilets, they are usually closed arent they? As supervisor dont you have the power to do that?

But stop being so emotional about it, it wont help your case when you talk it over at the meeting; it sounds from the way you phrased your OP that you may have been attacked at some point in the past, making this even less savoury for you to deal with?

BatsUpMeNightie Fri 07-Oct-11 22:13:44

Point and laugh. That should stop it stone dead!

squeakytoy Fri 07-Oct-11 22:14:14

cant you time it so you are not in the vicinity of the mens room when you know they are about to change shift?

mosschops30 Fri 07-Oct-11 22:15:01

Lol at you putting TWAT in [] just in case there is a twat emoticon

<wonders what that would look like>

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Oct-11 22:17:13

I'm not sure what I think.

I can understand them presuming it's OK to get ready to use the urinals, but as a job, it would be unacceptable for it to happen if it's upsetting you.

I've seen signs in toilets saying something like 'these facilities are cleaned by men and women', could you suggest something similar to give the blokes some warning?

What would bother me is the manager trying to minimise how you feel.

Any idea why they'd do that?

How do the men react when they see you're there?

troisgarcons Fri 07-Oct-11 22:17:58

I'd laugh and point

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:18:56

as a supervisor I can protect my staff, however they aren't on the factory floor, ONLY I am, I never once said it was sexual, nor do I believe it is, however I do not want to be exposed to, by men while I am working, signs are out, cleaning trolleys are out, but due to numerous shift changes (4 in a 3 hour period) I am inevitably in one of the 4 men's loos, while working.

No manager on floor, except day shift which ends at 4pm, and I start shift at 5pm.

ALL, complaints problems are put in complaints book and reviewed every few months.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Oct-11 22:19:42

X-posts, I don't agree with it being sexual harassment demented, as there's no sexual element to their behaviour.

onagar Fri 07-Oct-11 22:21:00

You may expect the management to make some arrangement so you are cleaning when the room is not in use.

You can't however blame men for using the urinals in the men's toilets.

squeakytoy Fri 07-Oct-11 22:21:13

how is it sexual harrassment anyway, they arent waggling their cocks in her face saying "have a look at this".. they are going for a pee.. confused.. in the mens toilets, which is where they are supposed to pee..

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:23:04

Ive asked men that they can collect belongings, but if they need the bathroom, they need to use other facilities, I am told I am a prude, that I have to explain to their team leader why they are late, or they simply ignore my wishes.

I have a yellow sign on front entrance, my trolley and a do not use sign on door, but because there is a shift change/people going home, these are all ignored.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 22:23:22

You did link it in to sex in your first post which means you are making some sort of link whether you realise it or not.

It shouldnt be happening basically but if you want it sorted in that type of environment you will need to be unemotional; I realise on here you can let out the steam but for your own sake dont do it in RL (at work).

Ask for your companies policies; check if they have anything about dignity for staff or clients; and if you need more comprehensive advice, phone the ACAS helpline who can tell you your rights in confidence, you will find it if you Google.

niceguy2 Fri 07-Oct-11 22:23:25

Have you tried putting the signs out then blocking the door with the trolley? Ie. put it directly in the path so they'd have to move it. Failing that, put it on the inside so its hard for them to open and that should be a sufficient jolt that someone is on the inside cleaning their piss stains!

emsyj Fri 07-Oct-11 22:24:30

What's the solution then? If you're there over shift change and the men need to use the facilities when you're working in there, what can be done to solve the problem?

If you can think of the solution, you can then present it to whoever is in charge and say, 'this is the problem, and this is what needs to happen'. But at the moment you seem to be complaining about something and at the same time suggesting it is inevitable.

onagar Fri 07-Oct-11 22:26:35

Maybe they should employ a man to clean the men's toilets.

squeakytoy Fri 07-Oct-11 22:29:21

your whole job is not solely cleaning the mens toilets is it? so work your job around it, and clean the area straight after the shift change when it will be at its most quiet..

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:29:34

I know what needs to happen, and dont want to give to much Info way, I want to say at X times they needs to use X facility, between these times, after this time they needs to use Y facility.

I used the sex in my post, because it should be MY choice whether I see others Willy's or not, and it should be respected that I do not want to in my work environment.

I can imagine if this happened in the female facilities, instant dismissal would be instant.

My problem is, the men know I am in doing my job, however they do not care, and still expose themselves to me, as if I we're not a person to be treated with consideration or respect.

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 22:31:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

onagar Fri 07-Oct-11 22:31:58

You want the men sacked? All of them?

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:32:30

"your whole job is not solely cleaning the men's toilets is it? so work your job around it, and clean the area straight after the shift change when it will be at its most quiet.."

In a word yes, there is 4 men changing facilities and one woman's, and shower rooms.

I also have to do offices, however they need to be done last, as they are white rooms, and I need to suit up tp clean them.

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 22:34:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:35:12

"You want the men sacked? All of them?"

I dont believe I have implied this, I want them to treat me with decency and also respectfully as a woman, and for my wishes to be respected.

BatsUpMeNightie Fri 07-Oct-11 22:37:19

Three words.

willy willy willy

grin

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 22:37:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

troisgarcons Fri 07-Oct-11 22:39:08

I must have seen about 20 Willy's since Ive been there.

Seen one, seen them all. What is so offensive that you view a male urinary tool as a sexual organ? What is the issue?

I used the sex in my post, because it should be MY choice whether I see others Willy's or not, and it should be respected that I do not want to in my work environment.

Cut to the chase. People have to clean lavatories. This is currently your job. Amazingly, in lavatories, urinary and defecatory bits-n-bobs are right next to sexual organs.

if you can't do the work for which you are paid then I suggest you leave and let someone else have paid employment. Failing that, put the yellow 'maint in progress' sign out side the door.

There is no sexual element unless a bloke is coming in schwinging his todger and yelling 'look at me' and shoving it in your face.

If you cannot differentiate between ablutions you are paid to clean up after and a sexual element then you need some serious councelling.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 22:40:11

I agree with Potter - while the toilets are being cleaned, those ones are out of bounds if the cleaner is of the opposite sex.

However I still say the way you are putting it forward is far too histrionic and I also suspect you dont feel comfortable with your new job - you describe your other one as a career - so I do strongly think that a lot of THE WAY you describe it in your first post is to do with the way you feel about your role right now. I genuinely thought when I read it that you had been the victim of a serious sexual assualt at some point for example.

I totally agree with you btw - but you have got to be careful about how you put it across - you practically accused 20 men of expsoing themselves to you, which is an offence that would get them on the sex offenders risk, in actuality they were using the facilities, you being there was incidental. The problem is that you feel uncomfortable and the dignity of both yourself and the men is not being dealt with in an acceptable fashion as things stand.

onagar Fri 07-Oct-11 22:41:58

I think part of the problem is that the room is also where their other gear/clothes are stored so they have to get in there for them anyway.

They should have employed a man then it wouldn't matter.

altinkum I only asked if you wanted them sacked because you said about instant dismissal if it were in the women's toilets.

GalaxyWeaver Fri 07-Oct-11 22:43:03

i just spoke to dh who works in a factory that contracts cleaners. His advice is

1) go in early and have a work with the shop floor supervisor and ask him to speak to the workers about it.
2) write in the complaints book so you have your back covered
3) ask the men doing it to stop as you're finding it disrespectful and offensive
4) lock the toilets while you're cleaning them, and if anyone complains explain you've tried to ask politely for them to stop but as they wont then you will lock them and prevent them using them until they can show you some respect.

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 22:43:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

emsyj Fri 07-Oct-11 22:43:35

Well if it is feasible to close the toilets/facilities while you clean them, they need to be locked so that people cannot access them during cleaning. Can this be done? If so, there's your solution. Clear notices to tell everyone that X facility is closed for cleaning between X time and Y time, no access between those times (including for collecting belongings from lockers).

I don't really know what the situation is so it's hard to comment, but I get the impression that it would be hugely inconvenient for the facilities to be locked and that you'd end up with folks banging on the door and demanding access to get their stuff to go home. If that's the case it may take time to change things. Could lockers be put somewhere else so that they could still get their stuff anytime?

squeakytoy Fri 07-Oct-11 22:45:15

I think if you complain too much, you will be doing yourself out of a job anyway as you are only sent in by the contractor. They will probably decide it is easier to get a man to do the job, as womens toilets are cubicles rather than urinals, so it wouldnt matter too much if a man was in the toilet area while women used the cubicles.

What I cant understand is, if you were busy doing something, you wouldnt actually see their bits...

I worked in a few pubs and often had the misfortune to need to go into the gents loos for some reason or another, and while I saw men standing at the urinals out of the corner of my eye, I didnt look too closely as I didnt want to see anything more.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:45:16

"Cut to the chase. People have to clean lavatories. This is currently your job. Amazingly, in lavatories, urinary and defecatory bits-n-bobs are right next to sexual organs."

I think me cleaning up shite and piss, is massively different to men knowing I am in the loo's cleaning and them taking a piss, or going to take a piss in front of me is beyond inappropriate.

I have no qualms if the me use the cubicle, or wait to unzip themselves while suing the facilities, however I do not want to be exposed at, a few times a week, against my wishes!.

If a streaker, who does it for no sexual gratification, can be arrested for indecent exposure, then why should I have to out up with it everyday, 5 days a week hmm

you would not be expected to sit in your office and be exposed to, so why should I, even if I am in the same facility, as they need a wee. it double standards!!.

TigerseyeMum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:45:34

Whilst there is a reasonable risk that in that kind of role you may see a bit of willy, it is clear that this is very uncomfortable and distressing for you, for your own personal reasons.

It is not unreasonable to expect that whilst the toilets are being cleaned - which takes, what, 10 mins max? - and other facilities are available, that the men in question use alternative arrangements.

You did not take on a job that involved dealing with body parts - such as nursing, or sexual health - you took on a cleaning role, and given your level of distress it seems important to get this aspect of your job sorted out, with the help of your manager. There is no need to be distressed, there are alternatives.

Maybe if you could make sure the sign, cones etc are all out, and if you hear someone come in just shout out 'sorry, closed for 5 mins, use the toilets on X floor' or something. Perhaps they are just not used to having to go elsewhere.

If it can't be resolved then maybe another job is in order.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 22:46:26

In most places, wouldnt there be another door between the locker/changing room part and the toilets?

hiddenhome Fri 07-Oct-11 22:47:37

I don't see how a man going for a pee in front of somebody is any more offensive than a woman breastfeeding in front of someone. Both involve personal, usually covered up parts of the anatomy, but both have perfectly reasonable primary functions which are natural and not sexual or offensive.

How would these men be treating you disrespectfully by doing this? They're probably not in the least bit interested that you're there, they only want a pee and to get on with their day or go home.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Fri 07-Oct-11 22:47:46

If you're cleaning the toilets they're closed. Full stop. I would say they could use the cubicles but apparently they aren't considerate enough to do that even when they see you're there.

Totally ineffectual manangement. You have the right to do your job without being surrounded by pissing men.

ChippingIn Fri 07-Oct-11 22:48:49

Altinkum - I may have found what's causing the problem!!

I have a yellow sign on my front entrance

Does it say - wave your willy at me?

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Honestly, you are making a big deal of this - something that would not be a big deal for the majority of women, I think you need to look at why that is sad and if you already know why it is (and I think you have alluded to it) then maybe you need to accept it's your problem and not them doing something to you.

Why are you no longer a social worker?

GalaxyWeaver Fri 07-Oct-11 22:49:03

people are missing the point. They dont need to unzip until they're stood AT the urinal... these guys are unzipping and whipping it out EN ROUTE and thereby flashing altinkum.. its not necessary and disrespectful to her.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Oct-11 22:49:13

Although I can kind of see why it might happen, I disagree with posters just laughing at your posts OP and treating it with toilet humour.

There's not one area in my life where I would find it acceptable for a man to expose himself to me knowing I was there.

The thought that ran through my head when you said they know you're cleaning, was that a lot of men do treat getting their tackle out as a non issue.

But nobody should brush off how you feel about them doing it.

The fact is it upsets you, and that's not your problem.

You're doing a job you're paid to do, and should not have to tolerate something 'unconventional' that makes you feel so shit.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 22:49:37

There is no reason for a streaker to have their bits out in a public place.

There is no reason for someone to have their bits out in an office.

There is a very good reason to have your bits out for a pee in a toilet area. Otherwise you will end up with pretty nasty stains.

Its not a comparison.

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 22:49:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:50:24

"I totally agree with you btw - but you have got to be careful about how you put it across - you practically accused 20 men of expsoing themselves to you, which is an offence that would get them on the sex offenders risk, in actuality they were using the facilities, you being there was incidental"

I agree, I am a survivor of rape tbh, and that is partly the reason, The men know I am cleaning the changing rooms, however they go past the sign, past my trolley, while unzipping their trousers and taking there willy out heading to the urinals, or they use the urinals while I am cleaning.

they are well aware In am cleaning and are well aware before they even enter the entrance of the changing rooms.

TigerseyeMum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:51:14

I just asked my OH and he said if a female cleaner is in the toilets when he needs a wee he goes somewhere else. He would not whip his wanger out in front of a female employee, whatever her job role.

troisgarcons Fri 07-Oct-11 22:51:30

you would not be expected to sit in your office and be exposed to, so why should I, even if I am in the same facility, as they need a wee. it double standards!!.

My office has toilets .... and amazingly, Im not such a wilting flower that I cant nip into the mens if I have to.

One has to wonder why blokes have to 'put up with' a female sluice operative though? Surely some men are a bit iffy about woemen perving them in the bogs?

Sadly, you will be "disemployed" if you cant remember to to put a sign outside the door and a same-gender opertive will be put in place.


This is a Friday night thread isn't it?

Rudawakening Fri 07-Oct-11 22:51:47

I am sorry this is distressing you but you need to detach emotion from this. They are not exposing themselves to you, they are doing something in the manner they have always done it.

I work in a very male environment working night shifts sometimes in remote locations being the only woman on site and I am treated like one of the guys but when I first started one of the guys went to pee in a bush he whipped his penis out his trousers in nearly full view of everyone and I was so shocked because I wasn't expecting it I burst into hysterical laughter for about 5 mins, couldn't speak, tears everything. It wasn't even funny but there ya go, it didn't offend me, can't be easily offended in my industry, it was just these guys worked together so much for so long they are comfortable and forget that new people might not be.

The laugher thing got around and I have never seen another one, but next time if you can bring yourself to do it I would say something to the offender, along the lines of 'not everyone needs or wants to see your penis, please put it away'. Polite and too the point not nasty or accusing or emotional.

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 22:51:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TigerseyeMum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:52:25

There is a sign and designated time and a cone, already.

incognitopenguingirl Fri 07-Oct-11 22:52:59

Message withdrawn

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:54:20

There is no reason for a streaker to have their bits out in a public place.

There is no reason for a man to have his willy out before he has even come through the entrance of the toilets (it has a long hallway) which has signs visible eye and also a massive cleaning trolley)

There is no reason for someone to have their bits out in an office.
same as above, no reason to have a willy out, when in the same room as a woman, cleaning the loo;S WHEN THEIR IS CUBICALS AND OTHER LOO'S FOR THEM TO USE

There is a very good reason to have your bits out for a pee in a toilet area. Otherwise you will end up with pretty nasty stains.

AGAIN, other facilities available, however no instruction from management and they repeatedly ignore my wishes for them to use other facilities!!!!

Its not a comparison.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 22:54:45

Right sorry, I had picked that up from your first post and then thought I was wrong.

I think in that case you are probably not in a place to put forward a rational argument about it yourself. Are you in a union? Could someone represent you and explain its making you uncomfortable?

You should not need to disclose your past btw.

However you need to not present it as you being the victim of something the men are doing wrong but as something that you are uncomfortable with because it doesnt afford either of you with the dignity you deserve - which is what I have been trying to say badly for about half an hour?

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Fri 07-Oct-11 22:55:26

RhondaJean has reminded me why I miss Dittany.

The OP doesn't want men getting their penises out and pissing in front of her so bshe must have some sort of problem or have been attacked?? And she should be careful not to upset the poor men.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 22:56:26

"Sadly, you will be "disemployed" if you cant remember to to put a sign outside the door and a same-gender opertive will be put in place."

Have you not read there is signs out, trolleys out but they are ignored, hmm

squeakytoy Fri 07-Oct-11 22:58:32

Was your job done by a man until you started? How long have you been doing it?

Could it be that the blokes were used to a male cleaner being in there?

youllbewaiting Fri 07-Oct-11 22:58:34

I've worked in hundreds of factories over the years and as a man I've been in hundreds of communal toilets.

I've never seen a man get his willy out before reaching the urinal, sounds a weird factory.

It's not Willy Wonka's factory is it?

GalaxyWeaver Fri 07-Oct-11 22:58:53

do what my DH suggested Altinkum, you shouldn't have to put up with that, whatever the peanut gallery think!

emsyj Fri 07-Oct-11 22:59:00

As I said before, the door needs to be locked so that they cannot come in whilst you are working. Any reason why this cannot happen?

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 22:59:08

If you read the first post properly you will see why I came to that (correct as it happens) conclusion.

Im aware sticking up for men isnt popular on here but for all we know the previous cleaner may have been a woman who just got on with it - they arent looking for attention just a pee! Its not right - but the approach has to differ with the circumstances.

cloudsandwind Fri 07-Oct-11 23:00:42

There is absolutely no reason why they can't wait to unzip their flies when they are at the urinal instead of doing it when they are crossing the floor. This sounds intentional to me.

If a guy sees a woman standing in front of him surely his first thought would be to keep his dick in his trousers not whip it out. It's initimidatory to you.

Is there a union at your workplace and have you joined, because is something they would be able to deal with.

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 23:00:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LoveBeingAMummyAgain Fri 07-Oct-11 23:00:44

Op I think you would be better posting in employment issues. Your employer should be protecting you and taking action. Other than making a formal complaint, or at least the threat of it I don't see them taking it seriously.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:02:36

"Why are you no longer a social worker?"

Lots of reasons chipIn, the boys, ds2 accident, my mums MH, me and dh relationship suffering, the hours, taking my boss to court for constructive dismissal, exhaustion, too many case loads etc...

Mostly personal, and also boss, already been offered a out of court settlement, but for me its not the money but, to get him to stop bullying colleagues (you're well aware of the many a threads).

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Fri 07-Oct-11 23:03:22

The fact that you think she needs a reason to not want men wandering in with their pants half down whilst she's trying to clean speaks volumes.

It shows a complete lack of respect.

cloudsandwind Fri 07-Oct-11 23:03:42

Have you written it in the complaint book?

The other thing to do, is write to the Factory Managers if you can't get hold of them to meet with them.

Start keeping a record of times, dates and names. There is no way that you should be expected to put up with something like this in a job.

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 23:04:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Fri 07-Oct-11 23:04:37

GalaxyWeaver's DH's advice is good.

booyhoo Fri 07-Oct-11 23:09:55

"They dont need to unzip until they're stood AT the urinal... these guys are unzipping and whipping it out EN ROUTE and thereby flashing altinkum.. its not necessary and disrespectful to her."

try this

they dont need to unclip until the baby's head is at the boob... these women are unclipping and whipping them out en route and thereby flashing altinkum..it's not necessary and disrespectful to her.

would people still have a problem if it was a male cleaner cleaning a baby feeding room? would mothers be expected to wait until he had finished cleaning or would they have to face the wall so as not to upset the person cleaning by showing their breast?

there is nothing sexual about what these men are doing. nothing at all. the are using the facilities for their intended purpose.

as for all of you saying they should have a man clean the toilets. why? why does it only make it 'exposing themselves' when it's infront of a woman? plenty of men dont wish to see other men's penises, why would it be presumed that men would have no problem with being 'exposed to' in the way OP feels she has been?

anyway, i agree with those who suggest closing the toilets whilst you are cleaning them.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 23:14:25

Puffin ffs youre being a muppet.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 23:15:45

Back to the issue - OP can you get some representation to explain as I suggested?

cloudsandwind Fri 07-Oct-11 23:16:27

Feeding a baby is not like taking a piss, that's a stupid comparison.

These blokes are in the changing rooms and they are getting their penises out in front of a woman before they've even got close to the urinals. They aren't using the facilities, they are in the changing rooms, not the bathrooms.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:16:37

Was your job done by a man until you started? How long have you been doing it?

It's a new factory, so I dont know tbh.

Could it be that the blokes were used to a male cleaner being in there?

Again I dont know.do what my DH suggested Altinkum, you shouldn't have to put up with that, whatever the peanut gallery think!

8I have written them all down, I am going to email the site manager and then CEO (if I dont get a response), so hopefully may get a response from them.*

As I said before, the door needs to be locked so that they cannot come in whilst you are working. Any reason why this cannot happen?

Yes, the loo entrances lead off from the factory floor, so hence they are fire doors.

"FFS. I officially Give Up."

me too FTP, Im now feeling a almighty prude, when I am not, me and dh can swing from the chandeliers, as its common ground for us, grin*

I think in that case you are probably not in a place to put forward a rational argument about it yourself. Are you in a union? Could someone represent you and explain its making you uncomfortable?

Im not sure, I am passed my ordeal, and your right I should not have to disclose my past, but whose to say my other female colleagues haven't been through the same ordeals I have, but your right too, maybe I am allowing my past to cloud my judgement

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 23:18:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:19:47

"And that could have been better addressed via PM, don't you think, ChppingIn?2

to be fair FTP, I haven't been on a while, so it was just a innocent question. x

NotJustClassic Fri 07-Oct-11 23:20:02

I'm shocked at how little support OP has on this thread. I don't think it's at ALL unreasonable to not want to see willies while at work.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 23:21:39

Look Im not saying its clouding your judgement - Im just saying you need to be very unemotional about how you put the problem forward in that sort of environment (rightly or wrongly) and you might be struggling with that so get someone else to voice it for you.

Fire doors or fire exits btw? Fire doors can be locked (they are the ones that need to be kept shut to keep a fire in if it starts) fire exits cant be, but why would a fire exit lead into the toilet? It could well - just seems unusual.

Try to pick through the messages that are actually trying to offer some advice and see what might work - and stop justifying yourself - the fact you feel uncomfortable is actually more than enough.

GalaxyWeaver Fri 07-Oct-11 23:23:02

booyhoo, stop being silly.. you cannot compare feeding a baby to getting your cock out and walking down a corridor with it waving in the wind.

I have NEVER seen any bf'ers whip em out and walk along with them hanging out for anyone to see!

cloudsandwind Fri 07-Oct-11 23:23:05

I don't think it has anything to do with your past not wanting to be flashed at at work. It's the people who are saying this is no big deal and you're overreacting who are having the abnormal response to this.

If those blokes got their dicks out on the factory floor they'd be sacked, but doing it in your workplace (not in front of the urinal) is seemingly OK. In fact it isn't, and you'd have a strong case for sexual harassment or at least harassment and an intimidatory work situation if you were to pursue this.

booyhoo Fri 07-Oct-11 23:24:41

clouds if it is a changing room then surely that means they are supposed to get changed there, as in remove one set of clothing and put on another. very possible that if they are showering, that will require removing their underwear!!

FearTricksPotter Fri 07-Oct-11 23:24:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:25:34

"Back to the issue - OP can you get some representation to explain as I suggested?"

I have no union hmm, I dont even have a contract been fighting for it for months now (for me and my staff) we keep getting promised one, but yet we are still waiting to receive.

tbh, I have always been in a professional body, this is completely alien employment to me sad

cloudsandwind Fri 07-Oct-11 23:27:35

Where did the OP say anything about showers booyhoo? She's said that these men are exposing themselves in front of her when they are walking to the urinals.

Altinkum, are there men getting changed to have showers in this changing room.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 23:29:54

That really doesnt help then sorry.

I think you should phone the ACAS helpline. Tell them the story and get your rights, then write it down and script around it. Keep it precise - you are uncomfortable, men are naked, its not appropriate for either sides dignity, and you are proposing that the toilets are out of bounds during cleaning.

Can they get into the changing area for their stuff but not into the toilet area while you are there?

booyhoo Fri 07-Oct-11 23:30:24

i'm nearly sure i saw showers mentioned. i could be wrong. even if there are no showers, it is still a changing room, where people are able to change their clothes!

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 23:30:41

I mean, is it one open space or two rooms? sorry wasnt clear.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:31:23

Rhonda, the loos have two exits, one from the front and one that leads to factor floor, (like a single sex swimming pool entrance) so one is a fire door/fire exit, and the entrance is a fire door.

so hard to explain tbh, feels like I am drip feeding now, and I agree with your post, and is probably why I am confused, as I can think rational, but then my emotion can cloud what I am trying to say. so I think I actually agree with you, in saying I may need a representative to help me.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Oct-11 23:32:24

I know the thread's moved on a bit, but incognitopenguingirl post saying

'what a fuss about nowt.

do get a grip

< but preferably not of one of those 20 willies >'

makes me really see what kind of a brick wall you must be up against OP.

The insinuation that it's a bit of a 'oh, you should be so luck' situation is unbelievable.

Or is it that you think the money the OP's being paid sufficiently covers men exposing themselves to her and causing her distress ingognito?

She should just shut up and put up with it as part of her job?

Fuck off should she.

It's not fucking funny in the slightest, and it's inappropriate to think it is.

booyhoo Fri 07-Oct-11 23:35:30

"In a word yes, there is 4 men changing facilities and one woman's, and shower rooms."

apologies, this is where i saw showers and i mistakenly thought the showers were in the changing rooms that OP was cleaning whilst the men were using them.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:36:37

"Can they get into the changing area for their stuff but not into the toilet area while you are there?"

No its all one room, the men dont get naked, but their lockers are in the same rooms as me, which hold there personal belongings (work boots, which are only allowed in the factory, and not outside or home), before/after work they can have a shower, however this isnt a problem, as they are locked from the inside and I've never seen a naked man in the factory, the problem, is the bathroom/change over from shifts, and that is when I am getting exposed at.

cloudsandwind Fri 07-Oct-11 23:37:43

Altinkum, your emotion about this is a reflection of how disrespectful and stressful you are finding the behaviour. It's a reflection of the behaviour, not a reflection of an overreaction on your part, nor is it irrational. In fact if this was to be taken further your reaction would be part of the evidence of the harm that this treatment was doing to you.

I think you've made perfect sense on this thread, unlike the people who think it's a reasonable proposition for you to be exposed to countless penises at your place of work.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:39:34

"In a word yes, there is 4 men changing facilities and one woman's, and shower rooms."

boohoo, someone asked me what area's I worked in, and that was part of the answer x

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Fri 07-Oct-11 23:42:23

You're comparing breast feeding to urinating?

There are toilet cubicles.

There is a sign to show that the toilets are being cleaned.

The men are still coming in with their trousers open and pissing in urinals when there is a women trying to clean and cubicles they could use.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:42:56

Thankyou cloud, and FTP, Rhonda, and many others, who don't think I am over reacting, as tbh, I was thinking, am I being a prude, or over sensitive. In any work environment, people are not exposed at, so I was thinking why on earth should I differ.

rhondajean Fri 07-Oct-11 23:48:10

I think I get you. Not an easy lay out to deal with then.

See, if they just sat down like us, you could spray something nippy on the seats while you were in!

Seriously, phone the helpline, get some proper advice. And be strong and go in calm and level headed like you would have in your previous job. Dont focus on the men waving their bits about but on the unacceptableness of the set up where you are forced to see/ they are forced to have their bits out while you are in room (I know they can go to another loo but whatever has been common practice before means they dont, they are going to have to be TOLD to do so, and you want to keep it as friendly as you can in the factory I would imagine).

Also, in terms of your employer, they should have given you a contract by now by law (written statement). Id start to log everything in a wee notebook just in case.

What you want is not to have to see the mens bits - focus on getting that in the least disruptive way you can.

booyhoo Fri 07-Oct-11 23:48:17

i'm having trouble with this, and i am sorry OP i really don't mean to minimise how upset you are by this. but if i took a job that involved cleaning men's toilets then i would expect there to be penises present using the urinals. if penises peeing (in the correct facilities) are thought to be offensive then surely men's toilets would be all cubicles and no open urinals so as not to offend anyone (male or female). if it is thought to be disrespectful to a female cleaner then it should be thought to be disrespectful to a male cleaner and if thats the case then it should also be seen as disrespectful for any man to pee infront of any man (even another man using the toilet).

booyhoo Fri 07-Oct-11 23:50:51

sorry altinkum, yes i know i was just quoting that bit because i mentioned showers earlier and someone was questioning where it was mentioned.

cloudsandwind Fri 07-Oct-11 23:53:50

Booyhoo, which bit of they are taking out their penises whilst walking down a corridor and across a changing room are you struggling to understand? She's not objecting to the peeing, she's objecting to them exposing themselves to her. Waiting until they are standing in front of the urinal to unzip their flies is not an unreasonable expectation.

I think they probably see the cleaning sign up and are getting their dicks out myself. All male environments can be very intimidatory to women, especially if management don't give a shit. I was once flashed at on an all-male building site. The difference is when I told the people in charge they took it very seriously.

GalaxyWeaver Fri 07-Oct-11 23:54:08

booyhoo.. what part of "there is no need to expose themselves prior to standing at the urinal" are you not getting?

These guys are taking their dicks out and walking down the corridor with them out... and walking PAST the signs saying there is a cleaner!

If they were just getting them out AT the urinal, it wouldnt be an issue.. i'm sure altinkum doesnt WATCH them pee.. but she cant help miss a dick that is walking down the corridor in someones hand!

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:55:13

" if i took a job that involved cleaning men's toilets then i would expect there to be penises present using the urinals."

Really shock, I wouldn't I would expect the facilities to be closed, and have a cleaner that would be in, negotiated by the shift times (which can be easily done) however no one has set in place YET!.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altinkum Fri 07-Oct-11 23:57:39

If they are using the urinals, and have their back to me, I wouldn't be overly bothered tbh, BUT they are not doing this, they are whipping it out left right and centre, even before they have entered the loo's.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

booyhoo Sat 08-Oct-11 00:00:38

ok, i clearly misunderstood just how previous to peeing these men are getting their willies out. I'm not OP so i cant know whether there is anything sexual in their behaviour at all or whether it is just what they do/have always done there.

i did say before that i agreed with suggestions to close the toilets. i have been skim reading so might have missed if OP has said why she can't just shut the toilets as in "toilets closed for cleaning" and tape across the door.

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 00:02:45

You could do an undercover expose (!!) and wear a camera and film what exactly it's like. I agree that if they are going to have women cleaning the toilets, they should be locked.

BTW you do have a contract, even though it's not written. Legally as soon as you start work there is a contract there with legal protections for you, even if the employer is so shit that they haven't provided you with a written one.

Phone the TUC up and ask which union you can join. Alternatively the GMB is the trade union for staff like cleaners.

altinkum Sat 08-Oct-11 00:03:19

"toilets closed for cleaning" and tape across the door"

This is what I am doing, I have a sign at entrance, saying cleaning in progress, I also have my big trolley, and ME in the facilities, however all is ignored and Willy's still lobed out.

altinkum Sat 08-Oct-11 00:06:09

dh, is with GMB, so hes going to phone on Monday and ask about going in with him, or joining them myself.

GalaxyWeaver Sat 08-Oct-11 00:07:46

can you put the trolley IN the doorway so they'd have to actually move it to get in? Then if they try it you can say "sorry, closed for cleaning!"

moonferret Sat 08-Oct-11 00:09:11

I'm surprised a woman would be recruited to a job cleaning the men's toilet while in use. I used to take vacancies for the JobCentre and employers would regularly ask for an exception under the Sex Discrimination Act for such jobs. Having said that, a while ago I walked into the toilets (I'm male by the way) and there was a female cleaner in there. Other men were using the facilities (ie, urinating) and the cleaner was getting on with her job, totally unaffected. If the men are using the urinals normally they should only "get it out" whilst actually at the urinal and facing the wall, otherwise they are flashers. If they are doing the former, just get on with your job and you will see nothing.

ilovesooty Sat 08-Oct-11 00:27:08

The trouble is if you join a union now when the issue is already ongoing they may not act for you.

minimisschief Sat 08-Oct-11 00:39:27

This whole post makes no sense to me as a man using urinals for the majority of my life.

1. men do not get their dicks out while walking to a urinal
2. you cannot see anything when standing behind. so unless you are stood side on will you see anything
3.most men avoid showing off their junk while peeing amoung other men and there is a whole urinal unwritten rule thing going on which practically avoids junk peeping so with a woman in there they are going to do their damn hardest to pee discreetly
4. why does a penis make you cry?

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 00:42:59

These men are getting their dicks out whilst walking to a urinal though. Are you struggling to read what the OP wrote mini?

They are flashing at her.

Which is why she is crying.

Flashing is a form of sexual assault.

moonferret Sat 08-Oct-11 00:46:43

Yes, any man reading this would know that these men are flashers. They are using the fact that they have a "legitimate" reason to get it out as it is a toilet, as an excuse to flash at a woman. Pretty disgusting really.

minimisschief Sat 08-Oct-11 00:51:14

i just find it highly unlikely that all these men would be flashing her. Sorry to say but i cannot see it happening.

moonferret Sat 08-Oct-11 00:53:46

I find that a bit odd as well...there would always be the odd weirdo who would think, "here's a chance to flash and have a good "excuse"." But the idea that lots of men would do it seems unlikely.

minimisschief Sat 08-Oct-11 00:54:11

20ish to be exact in her first post. How likely is it that 20 men were all into flashing. It is not a natural thing all men want to do.

altinkum Sat 08-Oct-11 00:55:28

1. men do not get their dicks out while walking to a urinal
8you can vouch for every single man can you?, WRONG!!, your incorrect!.*

2. you cannot see anything when standing behind. so unless you are stood side on will you see anything

It does not matter where I am, they see no wrong, in having a wee, while I am in the room, or next to them!.

3.most men avoid showing off their junk while peeing amoung other men and there is a whole urinal unwritten rule thing going on which practically avoids junk peeping so with a woman in there they are going to do their damn hardest to pee discreetly

really so this cardinal rule applies to all men?, really?, must have by passed this company then hmm.

4. why does a penis make you cry?

A penis doesn't make me cry, or are we too narrow-minded to see this, I don't want to be exposed too, it lacks respect for me, it does not bode well with me, nor do I like being put in a position where I do not have a choice, its inappropriate and completely unrespectful, and not to mention highly inappropriate!.

moonferret Sat 08-Oct-11 00:56:29

Yes, you're right...she could be deliberately looking for it. There's hardly any chance that 20 different men would be deliberately flashing her.

altinkum Sat 08-Oct-11 00:57:47

Its not about the men flashing, I dont think these men are flashing at me, however they are exposing themselves to me, even if they are doing it unknowingly or thoughtlessly, or even inconsiderately.

moonferret Sat 08-Oct-11 00:59:23

No, if you're seeing it at all, either a) you're going out of your way to see it or b) they are going out of their way for you to see it.

I have 30+ years' experience of men's toilets!

altinkum Sat 08-Oct-11 01:00:08

20, out of 400+men, in a few+weeks is quite high in my opinion, I dont want to be exposed at, nor do I have to just shut up, and put up!.

I dislike it, find it highly inappropriate, and my wishes should be respected.

chibi Sat 08-Oct-11 01:01:26

Have pm ed you altinkum smile

minimisschief Sat 08-Oct-11 01:09:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

moonferret Sat 08-Oct-11 01:13:16

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

KatieMiddleton Sat 08-Oct-11 01:16:58

OP YANBU. Not at all. You are employed as a cleaner. You duties are cleaning. You should not have to be subjected to looking at genetalia regardless of the intentions of the men displaying it. If you were working in an office doing admin you wouldn't expect to see penises and neither should you as a cleaner.

Your employer has a legal duty to look after your welfare and protect you from harrassment. By failing to do this they are in breach of contract. This could even be construed as sexual harrassment even though there is no suggestion of any sexual intention on the part of the perpetrators - there doesn't need to be as the law currently stands.

You need to put your complaint in writing to your employer and insist they act on it. If they don't they leave themselves wide open to action being taken against them.

If I'm perfectly honest there are far too many fuckwits on this thread talking utter shite and you need to get yourself over to employment issues where we can help you write a letter and support you through this.

altinkum Sat 08-Oct-11 01:19:54

yawn.

Ive never made up a thread in my life, but hey, you say so, so it must be true.hmm

In the meantime, I will deal with my very REAL, issue and take the advice of many posters on here, because I'm sure with your many years of experience in dealing with ALL men and their cardinal urinals rules, that me being exposed to simply never happens, and that I must be lying hmm, Im not sure why men want to look at each others cocks, I'm wondering why you wish/want to look at others cocks to be frank, jealousy gets you nowhere mate!.

Goodnight.

AgentZigzag Sat 08-Oct-11 01:21:54

If you have any concerns about the OP being a troll minimiss, you should report the thread to MNHQ, and not question it on the thread.

I believe the OP's a long time poster, I've no idea whether they've made up their entire MN history in order to post this thread, but I very much doubt it.

KatieMiddleton Sat 08-Oct-11 01:28:06

Good for you OP.

And who, the actual fuck, sets themself up as some sort of penis behaviour expert to question the OP asking for help? Even if you are 26 years old <pmsl at that being a qualification to comment and show a complete lack of imagination and downright ignorance>

MarginallyNarkyPuffin Sat 08-Oct-11 01:53:28

A woman says she's uncomfortable with men exposing themselves to her and you decide she must be lying.

Get the fuck off this site.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 08-Oct-11 02:04:03

Alrinkum, YANBU at all, sounds uncomfortable and degrading.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 08-Oct-11 02:07:07

Was sitting in pub on Sunday and almost got an eyeful as some man got it out as he walked through toilet door btw.

Mind you I am 39 not 26 wink

izzywhizzyletsgetbusy Sat 08-Oct-11 05:44:16

minimisschief You're 26 and have never seen a man walk to a urinal with his penis on display?

It would seem you've led a unusually sheltered life for one so old, or maybe you're labouring under the misapprehension that the men you've observed in public toilets are playing with real live trouser snakes rather than preparing to point their percys at the porcelain.

moonferret Sat 08-Oct-11 05:53:26

Interesting to note that some of the women here appear to know more about how men generally behave in toilets than men do.

Well, they don't actually of course. How ridiculous!

Tortington Sat 08-Oct-11 06:03:01

it wouldn't bother me...but then those posters who are posting in this vain are not thinking of you are they?

so i appreciate that whilst it wouldn't bother me it absolutely does bother you.

the reason we are going round in circles is becuase people want to solve your problem or dismiss it.

further down i think i read that you do have your own solution to this problem but its not that easy to be implimented.

on the issue itself. no. you are not employed to witness genitals unless there is a line in the job description.

and i wold be quite shocked on first witnessing this i would assume. The thing is factory culture is very specific, i don't think people understand, the wrong word to the wrong person and your whole existance could be made hell.

so whilst it seems sensible to say 'scuse me love, can you put your dick away whilst i'm cleaning' what your actually doing is perhaps putting yourself in an awkward situation, and setting yourself up.

this is indeed something that needs to be taken up at a higher management level.

Parietal Sat 08-Oct-11 06:32:39

I am amazed that everyone on this thread is being so unsupportive and questioning everything the OP has written and tried to generate excuses for these men.

I think this is systematic sexual harassment and the OP should not have to put up with it. She is one of very few women in an environment of men. She puts up signs to close the room she is cleaning, but men come in anyway and expose themselves unnecessarily. That makes for a pretty intimidating place to work and is not acceptable behaviour.

Management should not be waiting 3 weeks to read a complaints book, they should be able to do something.

And it they don't, someone suggested a video camera and some YouTube humiliation?

More realistically, this site might have some useful resources
www.stopstreetharassment.org/

youllbewaiting Sat 08-Oct-11 07:24:03

I'll say this again, I've worked in 100s of factories all over the country, and as a man I've used lots of communal toilets, I've played sports in lots of sports and social clubs and I've never seen or heard of anything like this.

So the behavior in this factory is very unusual so report it.

Not everyone is being unsupportive Parietal. There are plenty of people very vocally supporting the OP.

pigletmania Sat 08-Oct-11 08:31:12

YABU you are cleaning male facilities what do you expect confused. Don't you put signs and cones up to let people know you are cleaning in there. Errr when men use the toilet they have to take out their knob confused

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Proudnreallyveryscary Sat 08-Oct-11 08:38:16

I do feel for you OP, it's degrading and upsetting. However there are steps you can take as others have said - use the signs, be firm about it. And those stating that 20 or so men are flashing the OP and therefore sexually abusing her - seriously get a grip

pigletmania Sat 08-Oct-11 08:41:40

Why Using I read the op, read two pages of thread before getting bored and replied.

PeelThemWithTheirMetalKnives Sat 08-Oct-11 08:41:42

OP has said she puts up signs etc, but the men still come in to use the facilities. Maybe that's what they used to do when there was a previous (male?) cleaner. Whether they get their bits out in advance or not, I wouldn't like to be in their cleaning while they used the urinals. Some of you are being very dismissive and saying OP should just get on with it, but would you be so happy if it was you? I'd be interested to hear from someone else who is actually a cleaner who cleans toilets and what the protocol is, not someone who says it's okay while never likely to be in such a situation themselves.

pigletmania Sat 08-Oct-11 08:42:17

They are hardly deliberately flashing at altinkum they have to use the toilet and change do they not!

PeelThemWithTheirMetalKnives Sat 08-Oct-11 08:42:36

in there cleaning

pigletmania Sat 08-Oct-11 08:44:26

I personally would not mind, but then again I used to work in care so have seen many bits in my time. The op should talk to her manager that the men should not come in when she has her signs up and keep on at them. It must not be nice for them having a women cleaning in there.

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 08:45:45

It sounds to me like they are doing it on purpose. It is not usual for men to get their willies out miles before the toilet, or to go through barriers set up to close a toilet.

If my DH knew there was a female cleaner he'd go to a different toilet. There are 3 others sets - why do these men continue to use these ones even though they are cordoned off and get their knobs out miles away from the toilet? Sounds to me like they think it's funny to flash altinkum or get a kick out of intimidating her (as she has asked them repeatedly to use the other toilets and they have simply refused and told her she is a prude hmm). They know she doesn't like it and she has asked them to use the other toilets are these ones are cordoned off and yet still they do it.

Altinkum I think you need to follow the advice on this thread re who to call and what to do, and I hope things improve for you.

ThePosieParker Sat 08-Oct-11 08:47:00

Altinmum.

This is sexual harassment, and you have protection in law regarding sexual harassment no matter how long you have been working somewhere. So go back to your management and explain this.

I may also put a sign up on the door requesting people are more discreet as you find it offensive.

Until men stop this (assum,ing there are cubicals they could use) you could either lock the door or block the urinals.

Parietal Sat 08-Oct-11 08:50:13

Ihave

Sorry, I didnt mean to say 'everyone'. I was just amazed that the majority of the messages seemed to question the op rather than support her.

Bledkr Sat 08-Oct-11 08:54:08

It would be the same as women walking into the cubicle with knickers already down around their knees,its odd behaviour for sure,men dont get their knob out untill they are lined up at the urinal.
Id add to the yellow "cleaning in progress" signs something like.Please bear in mind discretion of the female cleaner when getting your knob out id hate it to.yanbu.

minimisschief Sat 08-Oct-11 09:13:14

izzywizzy

have you ever seen a woman walk to a cubicle with her trousers around her ankles.

i am guessing theanswer is no because it doesn't happen just like men do not whip theirpenis out and stroll to the urinal.

the op whole story would only make sense if you believe for a second 20 different men either alone or together decided to purposefully harass the op which is highly unlikely to say the least

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 08-Oct-11 09:14:04

minimisschief..are you a man? Serious question, since you know so much about men's toilet habits.

pigletmania Sat 08-Oct-11 09:19:50

Don't you have signs saying not in use cleaning in progress, or something like that. Or make one yourelf, as you said there are other facilities they could use whilst you are cleaning.

scuzy Sat 08-Oct-11 09:21:44

OP i sympathise. while i find the behaviour very odd of these men i have no doubt from what i read here you are telling the truth and find it all vey distressing.

are they big changing rooms? lockers? urinals? cubicles? chaning cubicles? showers?

perhaps you may be able to have someone else on rota with you as a witness and helper to get it done quickly?

if there are other facilities near by surely you can lock it from anyone using it while you are cleaning?

definetely report it and request that the room be closed off entirely for cleaning or have someone else clean with you.

you are a supervisor is there anyone else on the team you manage rostered to clean this room? have you asked them if they experience the same?

scuzy Sat 08-Oct-11 09:23:43

piglet she says she has signs, a cart and they are all ignored. however i think it should be more obvious. "Closed for cleaning. Please use other facilties" and if someone ignores it politely ask them to leave and if the OP had help it shuld be done quicker at no inconvenience to others.

perhaps post time it is closed for cleaning to give notice to collect gear earlier.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 09:27:19

You say you've seen 20 willys aleady. My advice would be - don't look. When men are walking through - lower your gaze to the floor.

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 09:29:36

Why is male harassment of a woman so hard to believe, minimisschief?

altinkum, I believe you. The management need to step up and tell them to pack it in. You've got some good advice and I would re-post in the Employment section too so that you can focus on the practicalities.

Sassybeast Sat 08-Oct-11 09:41:44

I don't see why it has to be an issue. Allocate a time when there isn't a shift change, put a clear sign on the door stating 'CLOSED' for cleaning from 1pm-1.15pm, yellow cones/signs or even better lock the door whilst you do the cleaning. If anyone comes in, announce loudly that the toilets are cLOSED and alternate facilities are available at... It's what happens in workplaces across the country every day....

scuzy Sat 08-Oct-11 09:43:58

agree with sassybeast

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 09:44:59

Sassybeast, read the thread (or at least have the courtesy to read the OPs posts) then you won't look like a fool.

scuzy Sat 08-Oct-11 09:45:48

Aye i read all the thread and i agree with sassybeast. how is she looking like a fool?

differentnameforthis Sat 08-Oct-11 09:46:09

A lot of people on this thread are totally missing the point. Which is, that the situation is far from ideal for altinkum & she isn't happy with it. It doesn't matter if some of you think it is funny/acceptable whatever, OP doesn't think it is.

I don't know if this would bother me, because it is not me in this situation. But I can see why the op is upset. I don't understand why others can't tbh.

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 09:49:06

"I have a yellow sign on front entrance, my trolley and a do not use sign on door, but because there is a shift change/people going home, these are all ignored."

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 09:49:57

Sassybeast has got it right.

It's a job - get some boundaries and take charge.

scuzy Sat 08-Oct-11 09:50:53

but sassy suggested as did i put a sign saying "CLOSED" and be more adamant and request they leave if the ignore it.

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 09:52:13

FGS, stop making it her fault.

Andrewofgg Sat 08-Oct-11 09:52:44

It's a matter of common sense that OP should be provided with a yellow cone to keep the men out while she cleans their loo (if the men snigger at a sign saying FEMALE CLEANER PRESENT and remark that that bloke has one hell of a good job, well, that's too bad!) - but she and management must then between them ensure that she is not there at shift change or the beginning or end of the day when the men obviously need to use it. Not difficult.

ThePosieParker Sat 08-Oct-11 09:56:12

Andrew.

She has the area coned, short of putting barbed wire around the doors she has them blocked off. The stupid twats she works with obviously think sexually harassing a lone female cleaner whilst she cleans their toilets is funny....

The more I think about this OP the more I think you should talk to ACAS and the Police.

The onus is not on the OP to 'be strong' 'take charge' as thats simply victim blaming.

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 09:56:32

We're seeing the same dynamic here of how people respond when they sit on juries for sexual offenses. A woman reports a situation where men are using sexual exposure as a way to intimidate her, and instead of believing and supporting her she gets called a liar.

How very disturbing.

Flashing at a woman is actually a criminal offense. These men aren't unzipping their flies at the urinal, they are taking their penises out and walking past her with them on show. It is clearly deliberate. Nobody is that absent minded about their genitals when there are other people, especially of the opposite sex around.

ThePosieParker Sat 08-Oct-11 09:58:53

SHE CAN'T LOCK THE DOORS AS THEY'RE FIRE EXITS.
SHE DOES CONE OFF THE AREA.
SHE DOES PUT A SIGN UP.
SHE WORKS WITH TWATS WHO THINK SHE'S FAIR GAME TO BE HARASSED.
IT IS NOT UP TO THE OP TO 'BE IN CHARGE' IT'S UP TO MANAGEMENT TO SORT IT OUT.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 09:59:51

Cloudsandwind - the OP shouldn't even be there during shift change and at the beginning and end of the day.

Why is she there?? confused

ThePosieParker Sat 08-Oct-11 10:00:38

OP please record every incident, this will come in handy when you've finally had enough and can find a no win/no fee lawyer to sue this company....pays more than cleaning anyway!!

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:01:07

Management and her good self - DO need to take charge !!

ThePosieParker Sat 08-Oct-11 10:01:39

Animation, are you suggesting that she's there if she can avoid it?

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 10:04:02

Why is she there? To do her job.

The more pertinent question is why the men are getting their cocks out yards away from the urinals.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:05:09

I don't understand WHY she has to be there when the guys come in?

Someone please explain?

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:06:07

She's there because management have told her to do that, and have made no concessions or arrangements for the fact she's a woman cleaning the men's toilets. They haven't told the men not to go in there whilst she's cleaning and they haven't warned the workers that any man flashing at her will be sacked.

Anyway, what's wrong with you Animation? Why aren't you asking why the hell these dicks are getting their dicks out deliberately in front of her instead of picking away at what she's supposedly doing wrong? This is how harassment in the workplace happens - women having to deal with this kind of behaviour with people minimising it, blaming her, or claiming straight up that she's a liar.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:06:50

I've never heard of cleaners remaining in a toilet or changing room for their full shift.

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 10:07:09

"but due to numerous shift changes (4 in a 3 hour period) I am inevitably in one of the 4 men's loos, while working.

No manager on floor, except day shift which ends at 4pm, and I start shift at 5pm."

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:08:59

Well you have now Animation. She puts up signs and the men ignore them.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:09:16

"Anyway, what's wrong with you Animation? Why aren't you asking why the hell these dicks are getting their dicks out deliberately in front of her instead of picking away at what she's supposedly doing wrong?"

Cloudsandwind

Oi - don't boody start on me!!

ThePosieParker Sat 08-Oct-11 10:09:25

Animation? What's your point? Do you think OP is there on purpose?

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:10:52

Are you telling me that she has to stay instu in a toilet area for her full shift??

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:12:43

You're starting on the OP Animation. What exactly does "get some boundaries" mean?

She has boundaries. She says she doesn't like this. It's the women lining up to say they wouldn't mind being exposed to penises at their place of work who are lacking in boundaries.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:13:03

PosieParker - SOMETHING about this story doesn't make sense - and I'm asking for more information.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:15:23

Cloudsandwind

I'm starting on no one - and it looks to me like you're the one after a Saturday morning argument!

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 10:15:40

No, she is telling us all what is going on.

"Ive asked men that they can collect belongings, but if they need the bathroom, they need to use other facilities, I am told I am a prude, that I have to explain to their team leader why they are late, or they simply ignore my wishes."

Why are some people not reading the OP's posts?

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:17:06

The information is there if you could be bothered to read Animation. The OP cleans the men's toilets, changing rooms and shower facilities. She also cleans the offices.

Whilst she's in the men's toilets, the signs she puts up are getting ignored and some of the men are coming in and exposing themselves to her.

She doesn't have to be in the men's toilets for her whole shift to get flashed at. I don't think you'd make a very good investigator.

booyhoo Sat 08-Oct-11 10:17:19

ok so we have gone from OP having to see men's penises whilst at work to 20 men intentionally exposing themselves to her because they find sexual harrassment funny and the police being called? really? is that genuinely what people think is going on in OP's situation?

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:18:27

Telling someone to get some boundaries is absolutely starting on them. It's a shitty way to behave to someone who is already having to deal with a nasty situation.

I don't want an argument but the way that some people, including you Animation, are responding to the OP is disgusting.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sat 08-Oct-11 10:19:02

altinkum - are they the same blokes doing it over and over again?

Having worked in a male-dominated env't, I can easily believe that 20 from 400 men would deliberately get their knobs out in this situation.

scuzy Sat 08-Oct-11 10:19:49

excuse me i sympathised with the OP and also gave i feel good advice. she mentioned she is a supervisor why cant she roster someone else on with her clean it up quicker, not lock but CLOSE the door, post up it is closed and from what times and ask anyione who ignores this to use other facilities.

also record the incidents but other than leaving her job she must be more pro active and not wait for management to get the thumb out!!!

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:20:44

Cloudsandwind - where has the OP said she's been intentionally flashed at?

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:23:07

"I don't want an argument but the way that some people, including you Animation, are responding to the OP is disgusting."

Well it looks to me that you're one of those posters' who's quiick to to throw out personal insults.

heleninahandcart Sat 08-Oct-11 10:23:30

The issue here is <respect> for the OP whilst doing her job. The men disregard her dignity as less important to them having a piss.

And she gets sneering and ridicule from posters on here.

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:23:49

You haven't answered my questions yet Animation. I don't know why you are asking any more of your own.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:24:14

"she must be more pro active and not wait for management to get the thumb out"

I agree.

GalaxyWeaver Sat 08-Oct-11 10:25:49

Animation.. why should she have to lower her gaze to the floor? Is that what every woman being flashed should do? Oh.. blokes got his dick out, its ok, just dont look!

bullshit.

MardyMwahHaHa Sat 08-Oct-11 10:26:40

Just a theory but if the OP has already objected to this behaviour0, is it possible that the blokes are talking about it amongst themselves and perpetuating this behaviour to provoke her.

And to the poster who suggested she avert her gaze downwards to the floor next time... WTF?! Like some subservient little woman?

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:27:47

It's not actually a cleaner's job to stop dickhead men at her workplace flash at her. It is the managment's responsbility. And if she collects evidence, takes it to a tribunal and it turns out they did nothing to sort out this situation, they'd be agreeing.

Animation Sat 08-Oct-11 10:29:47

"Animation.. why should she have to lower her gaze to the floor?"

I was being tongue in cheek.

Basically she needs to get the hell out of the toilets after she's cleaned them.

And when she cleaning them - don't let no buggar in!

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Sat 08-Oct-11 10:30:38

More pro-active than putting a sign on the door saying "Do not Use", putting out a yellow cone, having her trolley there and telling them to get their stuff and use the other facilities? All of which people keep suggesting as if she isn't doing that stuff already.

chibi Sat 08-Oct-11 10:36:39

What she really needs is a portable thermonuclear device

or a really rusty blunt pair of secateurs.

OriginalGhoster Sat 08-Oct-11 10:36:44

Have not read whole thread, but I agree that some of these men are not behaving well. But a bit of your OP stood out for me

*I've only had sex with dh, willingly

Have you had a bad experience in the past, having sex unwillingly, that is making this whole thing worse?

Snorbs Sat 08-Oct-11 10:45:04

I agree with everyone who has said that getting your cock out before you're standing in front of the urinal is most definitely not typical english male behaviour apart from rugby players. Which suggests very strongly they're doing it deliberately while planning to play the "I was only going for a piss!" card if altinkum complains.

If they really were so desperate to urinate that they absolutely could not use a different lav or wait for altinkum to leave they could always use the cubicals.

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 10:46:36

So all the men who have posted on here have confirmed that this is not normal behaviour for men, whilst half the women have gone "Ooh it's fine. Get a grip etc etc"

OneHandFlapping Sat 08-Oct-11 10:49:07

I would find Altinkum's situation distasteful, and that is without any upsetting sexual history, nor any prudery.

It is customary for both sexes to cover their genitals in front of the other sex (look at all those threads about "shouldn't an 8 year old boy be in the mens' changing room" etc.) and I don't see that this is a situation where it wouldn't apply.

You could always tell them that you were a Moslem, and it was an infringement of your religious rights. That would make them jump in a way that accusations of sexism never would.

violetwellies Sat 08-Oct-11 10:50:50

Its bullying, common factory behaviour, they do it because they are allowed to get away with it management need to get a grip.

heleninahandcart Sat 08-Oct-11 10:53:38

Original yes, the OP says she is a survivor of rape.

And right now she has had exactly the sort of response on here of dismissing her complaint that enables abuse to continue.

OriginalGhoster Sat 08-Oct-11 10:57:11

Thanks Helena, I'm sorry to hear that, obviously that compounds an already bad situation. I'm astounded once more at the lack of empathy by a small number of people on this site. sad

NinkyNonker Sat 08-Oct-11 11:13:39

I can't believe how many people think the OP is being unreasonable or embellishing, amazing. And to be inplying that she may be spending more time in the toilets than she needs to is jaw dropping. For a small group of 20 men out of 400 to behave like this repeatedly indicates that they are doing it to wind the OP up, she has expressed her dismay at their initial actions so they are getting progressively bolder to wind her up which is totally not on.

I've always thought Altinkum has come across as a very reasonable person, as such if they came in with a respectful acknowledgement she was there, along the lines of "sorry, I know it's a pain but we're due on shift" and did their business discreetly I'm sure she would understand that more than this blatant disrepect. But who cares eh, she's only the cleaner.

Why is it her problem to sort?? They are at fault, she should have back up from her management to sort it if her (so far, reasonable) efforts have failed. But I forgot, it is obviously her fault, her problem.

I do wonder whether sometimes it is a bit of a competition on here to see who can be the most "chilled out", woman-of-the-world etc, thereby implying that anyone who dares get upset by being flashed at at work is an uptight prude. Amazing.

onagar Sat 08-Oct-11 11:13:47

Ok since I've been gone this has changed a bit. We now have 20 men exposing themselves to walk down a corridor leading to where altinkum is.

It is nothing to do with using the toilets now so there's no point in talking about signs and things. It has moved on to 20 men committing a deliberate act of abuse because of course no man would do that normally. You just don't walk along like that, it would be awkward and painful - not to mention being something that other men would comment on as being perverted.

So this is deliberate abuse and every one of them is a criminal and should be arrested. We need to get the police there in force. If everyone on this thread calls their local police station then it can be quickly sorted.

A dozen police officers and a few vans to take the criminals away and altinkum can get back to work.

....Or you can realise that altinkum is having a problem here that would be more decently dealt with in PM and have the thread removed. It depends if helping someone or entertainment is the main purpose.

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 11:17:36

Onager why are you posting like that?

Your sarcasm seems misplaced and I don't understand what the point of it is?

Andrewofgg Sat 08-Oct-11 11:26:43

Sorry Posie if I have not got the full story by not reading the full thread - I should know better. If men are ignoring the signs that's an abomination.

I remember once working late and relieving myself when a female cleaner - who had not bothered with a sign - appeared from one of the cubicles. And I started apologising and I still can't see why!

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 11:27:56

Flashing is a crime whether you like it or not Onagar. Just because twenty men are doing it doesn't make it any less of a crime.

onagar Sat 08-Oct-11 11:29:53

SardineQueen friends don't let friends embarrass themselves in public, but I guess everyone is enjoying it too much to stop.

You must have realised by now that even though Altinkum may be sincere it is not really like that.

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 11:37:52

Who is embarrassing themself?

NinkyNonker Sat 08-Oct-11 11:38:05

How do you know?!

cloudsandwind Sat 08-Oct-11 11:46:39

Onagar from the OP's very first post she said that the men were exposing themselves in the changing rooms in front of her on their way to the urinals.

There is a massive problem with reading comprehension on this thread. It's as if the people who want to believe these men are doing nothing wrong can't read the words in front of them.

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 11:56:16

altinkum please do take the advice that has been offered on the thread and proceed as you think. things like ACAS, union, logging in complaints book and keeping your own log etc etc will all be helpful if and when the shit hits the fan.

ThePosieParker Sat 08-Oct-11 12:11:01

Onager. I am shocked at your response.

onagar Sat 08-Oct-11 12:29:48

Posie, my last post on this because I don't want to encourage it, but if this were literally true then it would be a police matter just as it would if 20 men were in the high street at a known time every day exposing themselves to passers-by.

I think it does feel like that to altinkum so she needs help and support, but I see the usual posters leaping in to advance their agenda and feel very disappointed that they are not really trying to help - just score points.

RedHelenB Sat 08-Oct-11 12:32:57

I think the toilets need to be locked whilst you clean them. However, if I went into mens changing room wouldn't be surprised to see their genitalia!!!

What do you want management to do? If you have to clean & changing rooms kept open then really I would change cleaning jobs,

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 12:38:33

Why do you think people are not trying to help her?

The police have been suggested as an option - but TBH in this situation it wouldn't be a normal person's first reaction to call the police, which is why not many people have suggested it as a first response. The normal person't reaction would be to ask them to stop (OP has done this), to report it to manager (OP has done this) and if those fail then wonder what to do next. This thread is OP wondering what to do next.

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 12:40:03

Sorry I have just reread your posts - are you suggesting that altinkum is imagining this as she has some kind of mental health problem?

Andrewofgg Sat 08-Oct-11 12:57:38

Take a chair.

Make a passing man - there must be some decent types among them - check that there are no men in the loo.

Then go in and put the chair inside the door.

If you hear the chair move yell at them - politely the first time - that you won't be long but you are cleaning and the loo is out of use.

If they persist then threaten them with the law. And TNS about it.

But avoid the busiest times.

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 13:00:19

That's a good idea. Assuming there is a door between the lockers area and the toilet area. I'm not sure what the layout is.

You could even put a broom or something under the handle like in a old movie so no-one can get it!

Flowerista Sat 08-Oct-11 13:15:44

OP apologies if this has already been said, but if your own manager won't deal with this issue then can you escalate to their manager? Also if the factory has an HR dept. they will probably be willing to help particularly if faced with a sexual harassment claim.

Altinkum - I wasn't even three pages into this thread before I was furious on your behalf just at the replies here and yes I know it's bad form to reply before you get through the whole thread but the Sid James Carry On Film mentality on here so far has pissed me off big time. This may be the angriest reply to any post i have ever written.

There may not be a harassment element if a man who is unaware of the OP's presence walks into the toilets, unzips only when he reaches the urinal and then stands there and urinates before noticing she was there.

There is a harassment element if 20 men who have ignored warning signs and a bloody big trolley purposely decide to use the room the OP is cleaning in, when there are other toilet facilities empty and easily accessible, and then walk in with their trousers already unzipped before they are anywhere near the urinals, just so they can flap their bits in the breeze and a laugh at her expense while they are doing it.

I cannot believe how many people here are saying the OP is being unreasonable or that these people really are buying into the myth that this is either totally innocent or all a bit of fun and the OP has no sense of humour. Because that's what it boils down to. It's not about men needing to go to the toilet, not when they are ignoring all other available facilities to target the one the OP is cleaning and not when they are strutting into the room with their penis already out of their trousers. And it's not a bit of fun some silly woman has made a fuss about.

It's about men who know full well that the OP is there and who have probably seen the look on her face when they walk in already exposing themselves to her and thinking it's funny. It is harassment.

Because if it had been a mistake they wouldn't do it again. The bastards think it's funny and you lot defending them by pretending it's only about the need to pee are either deluded or buying into the so-called joke at the OP's expense and supporting harassment of women in the workplace while you do it.

And it's nothing like breastfeeding either. I'd bet that most women don't walk across the cafe with their breasts out in the hope of upsetting someone or just because they like the feeling of fresh air on their nipples before they sit down and organise themselves to feed the baby and if one did do that then people would be quite right to tell her that there was no need for it and to put herself away until she was seated and ready to actually feed her child.

So there is no need for grown men who know a female (or male for that matter) cleaner is already in the room to wander in with his penis flapping about before he's even in sight of the urinal. There is no need for any man to have his penis out while walking down the corridor or as he enters the room. They can wait until they are actually standing at the urinal or inside a cubicle with the door shut.

Floggingmolly Sat 08-Oct-11 13:31:50

Troisgarcons, "What is so offensive that you view a male urinary tool as a sexual organ?"
Did you seriously type that with a straight face? What a very odd comment.

MiniMischief - "This whole post makes no sense to me as a man using urinals for the majority of my life.

1. men do not get their dicks out while walking to a urinal
2. you cannot see anything when standing behind. so unless you are stood side on will you see anything
3.most men avoid showing off their junk while peeing amoung other men and there is a whole urinal unwritten rule thing going on which practically avoids junk peeping so with a woman in there they are going to do their damn hardest to pee discreetly
4. why does a penis make you cry?"

1. Some do, clearly, or the OP wouldn't have this problem.

2. You can see plenty if some bastard thinks it's funny to walk in flashing you on purpose.

3. Yes, most men. Clearly not all men. Especially when they have noticed the effect it is having on the person they are victimising and think it's funny. It's not about peeing, so it's not about discreet. It's about flashing a woman for a laugh at her expense and so discreet is the last thing they are going to be.

4. Because flashing on purpose is a form of sexual assault that in some cases can escalate to other forms of sexual assault. It's not the sight of the penis that made her cry, it's the constant harassment by approximately 20 people who think flashing is a funny joke rather than a sexual assault or form of harassment.

minimisschief Sat 08-Oct-11 13:35:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

NinkyNonker Sat 08-Oct-11 13:37:45

No, just very juvenile, they know it pisses her off (excuse the pun) so are doing it to wind her up.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sat 08-Oct-11 13:42:51

Do men really get themselves ready to pee when they're nowhere near the urinal? It doesn't save time, does it? confused

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 13:51:22

I can imagine a situation in a very large, very female work environment where some women might think it hilarious to flash (prob boobs or arse) at a shy young man cleaning the bogs, actually.

Some people think stuff like that is funny.

SardineQueen Sat 08-Oct-11 13:52:39

In a situation where there are people changing anyway, in a "closed" environment (OP is in a factory).

Less so in an office!

KatieMiddleton Sat 08-Oct-11 13:56:41

minimisschief We can understand what you are saying thank you. What is happening here is people are disagreeing with you because you are being a berk.

To explain a few things to you:

• Just because you have not personally seen or experienced something does not mean it is not possible. It just means you have not seen or experienced it.

• Women don't tend to make this stuff up for attention. Yes some people do troll the Internet [oh the irony of having to point this out to you of all people!] but this is a poster who has been posting on here for quite some time in a reasonable way.

• Women do not get their vaginas out to pee. We pee through our urethra and this is positioned in a fixed place in our vulva. Above the vagina as it happens. It cannot be manoeuvred like a male urethra in a penis. [I suspect because you are most likely a bored 14yo who has never seen a naked woman or go to that bit in biology this is why you don't know]

• Women cannot and do not pee in urinals. We use cubicles. For reasons why see last point.

minimischief

Someone will no doubt point out to you shortly, in understandable terms, why it is physically impossible for a woman to walk into anywhere "with her vagina on show" so I won't bother. This is a long post, they might have already done it by now.

But I will say that I have spent my adult working life in environments where I have dealt with complaints such as the OP's.

I've worked in pubs and seen men entering the toilets already fiddling with zips and leaving them again while still doing them back up. This was the main reason we decided to remove the ice bucket from the bar and insisted on washing our hands after serving certain repeat offenders customers.

And later on I was the HR person in the offices of a factory who dealt with the woman whose boss viewed porn in his office while furtively fumbling under his desk, knowing she could see him through the door.

I dealt with the girls in the factory who were sick of having their bra straps snapped by one particular man. The same man who kept a porno calendar up in his workshop and liked to sneak into the offices and put password protected screen savers on any computers he found left on, usually made from porn photo's he'd downloaded from the internet. Just to see the girls in the office blush when they couldn't take the screen saver off because of the password.

I dealt with the girl who found porno drawings of herself pinned up in the staffroom with offensive comments underneath them and the one who found an image from a porn mag in her locker with a photo of her own face stuck over the models face. That one was the work of four people who all used the defence that it was only a laugh to show her what she would look like if she got a boob job. Bastards the lot of them.

I dealt with the girl who was in tears because one customer used to purposely have her serve him so that she had to turn around to get the stock he wanted and he could comment about her arse when she bent over or reached up. And how she found the worst thing to be the other men who listened to him and laughed at her, not one of them telling him to shut his filthy mouth. And how it made her feel sick every day when she came into work in case he was there.

I dealt with the cleaner who found everything from bogies to shit smeared all over the toilet walls on a regular basis and who believed that at least one man was masturbating in front of the mirror to see how high he could shoot up it.

So what I believe is that the OP is right. Some men do walk in to the toilet already unzipping and ready to go, because I've seen them at least starting to unzip ready to whip their bits out. And some so-called men do get involved in the pack mentality of bullying for the fun of it. And how it could take just one man to walk in with his penis flapping one time to go on and laugh to his mates about how it freaked out the cleaner to have some of them thinking it would be funny to do the same thing to the same person later on.

Even so, I do not think all men a perverts. I don't think most men are perverts. I do think some people are bullying bastards though and the OP works in a very large company of over 400 people, so 20 of them being bullying bastards is quite possible. She does say "about 20" so perhaps it's less, and perhaps some of them are repeat offenders rather than it being 20 separate people. But it's still bloody wrong of any of them, even just one, to be doing this to her.

Andrewofgg Sat 08-Oct-11 14:42:57

Minimischief:

Let me state three facts.

1. Either KatieMiddleton is right about you being a bored 14 year old or she is wrong.

2. If she is right you should shut the fuck up about matters of which you know nothing.

3. If she is wrong you are an arsehole.

KatieMiddleton Sat 08-Oct-11 14:47:21

grin Andrewofgg

heleninahandcart Sat 08-Oct-11 23:35:56

Takethisonehere great post

and thanks Andrewofgg for telling it like it is grin

Kayano Sun 09-Oct-11 00:16:06

Now
That it has been documented and clearly raised with management...

Can OP not just say
'look... I will clean the toilets and changing area but after te shift change due to reasons previously raised with management and documented correctly' and clean elsewhere in the factory until they have left and clean just afterward?

Or is that the only area that she needs to clean that day?

I do feel management need to step up
When I worked in a restaurant we had to clean men's room. I actually put the do not use tape all across the door so the physically couldn't get into the toilet bit. Totally blocked the exit and I was quite firm if anyone asked to cone in. It neve r took long and they were ok about it?

minimisschief Sun 09-Oct-11 08:29:29

my god pedantic much.

You know what i mean. you would not believe for a second if a woman had dropped her pants and shuffled to a cubicle. This is my point.

i just love how so many of you seem to believe you know much more about men in toilets than the 3 guys in here that told you they have never seen such behaviour.

it makes no sense and i was simply pointing out to you if the scenario was turned around based on your experiences of female toilets if it didnt make a lick of sense to you then you would not believe it either.

why do so many of you believe that 20 different men would intentionally expose themselves to a woman at a whim. we arent all perverted and it would not cross so many mens minds to do so.

ThePosieParker Sun 09-Oct-11 08:36:37

mini, I can only think that you've never walked past a building site, seen boys on a rugby tour or worked in a factory given that you think men aren't capable of such things.

Also you are a man who seems to want people to think you're a woman with your username, this alone makes me wonder what you're up to.

SardineQueen Sun 09-Oct-11 08:53:06

Have you never heard of anyone having difficulties with bullying / harrassment or even just less than desirable behaviour in the workplace mini?

And FYI I said upthread that I could well imagine a group of women deliberately embarrassing a young male in this way. Some people are just arseholes.

altinkum Sun 09-Oct-11 08:59:56

onagar, If your implying that I have MH, issues, then seriously you need to address yourself with this issue yourself, MH isn't something you brand someone with, like its someone giving out free sweets!.

Im going to try and answer what I can remember of the threads.

The set up is, all the same in the 4 changing rooms, each room has 4 closed cubicles, and 4 urinals, its one big square, along one side is the sinks and cubicles, along from that is the urinals, and alone from that is the lockers, and changing space, you have 2 doors, one is one that comes from the factory entrance/offices, and the other leads you straight to the factory floors.

I cannot lock the doors, they dont have locks, and they are also fire doors/exit doors, they dont have a handle on them either, its a push door.

I already have signs up, one cleaning in progress, and one wet floor sign, both are positioned at each door, both are also seen before entering the room, then I have my sign on the door, which is no entry, and my trolley, which is masshoosive, however they are still coming in. I am being stern, I am being vocal about my dislike of them entering the room cock in hand etc... Ive been called a prude etc...but all to no avail

The factory is opened 24/6 a day (no work Sunday) Their is 5 cleaners, I am on the factory floor, the other staff are doing offices, management/offices kitchens and bathrooms etc... and buff, and clean stairwells, and walkways etc...

Their is no one who could be with me, as they have there own areas to clean,, and only 3 hours to do all this work in, The factory is HUGE, and 5 staff is not enough, but where fighting for more staff (this is irrelevant, but trying to get you a idea, that no one can help me).

Ive spoken to my manager, and also left a dozens of notes in the management complaint book, however I am still faced with the same problem, inevitably due to the shift changes I am always going to be in one changing room, there is a way I can be left to clean the facilities myself alone, but this needs to come from management, and trying to contact management is difficult due to working hours.

I dont think the men are doing it purposely either, think they, or are being completely disrespectful, and inconsiderate, think they are used to doing it this way. Most of the men are lovely and most only come into the changing room to come and wash hands, or collect there personal belongings to go home, however some of them DO and ARE coming in with cocks out, or cock out half way to urinals, or cock out at urinals, either way its not nice, and nor do I like it.

I cannot advert my attention, because of the way the changing rooms are designed, I can see the whole room, as its opened planned. (like a big square).

I really appreciate all your advice, I spoke to the GMB yesterday, and he basically told me what all you;s have advised, write everything down, write/email management, and ask for a meeting to discuss further moves, Id already emailed the site management, so I will see what Monday brings.

altinkum Sun 09-Oct-11 09:03:09

mini, I dont know what your problem is, my own dh and all his mates have said, they use other facilities, if the cleaner is in, but even he, as a intelligent and respectful human being, knows that some men will come in with knob already lobbed out, I find it laughable that you can speak for all men, hmm

altinkum Sun 09-Oct-11 09:06:01

I dont think people are saying they know better than 3 men (3 men out of the whole world) or in my case 400 men, just that they can well imagine this happening, as IT IS HAPPENING!!!.

whether you believe me or not, is your issues NOT MINE!!!

Bledkr Sun 09-Oct-11 11:07:34

altikum Dh just said its not normal especially for a large group to do it,he said Knobs out when you reach the urinal is the norm in his opinion and he works with lots of men-police-he said it sounds as if its for your "benefit" which is concerning.I havent read all the critisism but imo yiu are right and they should keep their knobs in their kecks untill the moment,Morons.Good luck.

Xenia Sun 09-Oct-11 11:29:50

I think the cleaners should put a note on the door that stops people coming in when cleaning is taking place. I was in a ladies the other week and the male cleaner seeme dto be in 100% of the time throughout the day when I was in there. I think he shoudl be instructed to wait outside when people go in (not that we women were exposing anything to him).

ThePosieParker Sun 09-Oct-11 12:47:28

Completely agree that it is harassment more than absent mindedness....or weird behaviour.

BaldPlumber Sun 09-Oct-11 13:50:16

As a bloke, I have never, ever seen or heard of this sort of behaviour. It is not normal or natural to get your cock out until you're ready to have a pee. Especially considering it is a new facility and so there is little likelihood of any kind of ganging behaviour or intimidation going on.

Does anyone seriously believe that blokes are walking towards a toilet with their cocks swinging in the air?

Hysterical nonsense imo.

ThePosieParker Sun 09-Oct-11 13:57:23

Bald....I don't doubt anything that the OP has said.

BaldPlumber Sun 09-Oct-11 14:04:55

I do, based on the fact that this goes against all accepted norms and conventions. Mind you, I am willing to be dissuaded if any credible poster tells me that they have heard or witnessed this incredible sight.

altinkum Sun 09-Oct-11 14:09:23

What is it with people thinking I am lying, gawd honestly its pathetic!, who on earth would go around making this up, it also be maybe a new factory bald, but the workers moved to this one from the old factory, due to company expansion!

Anyway, I will let you know the outcome on Monday, or when ever I have anything to report about.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BimboNo5 Sun 09-Oct-11 14:10:43

You do seem to have more than your fair share of dramas OP....

altinkum Sun 09-Oct-11 14:13:22

Drama's? Bimbo5? What on earth are you talking about?

ThePosieParker Sun 09-Oct-11 14:13:29

Bad MN form..
But fuck off BimboNo5
And Fuck off Baldplumber

Sorry Altinkum, ruining your thread but I'm so annoyed on your behalf.

ScarlettIsWalking Sun 09-Oct-11 15:41:26

This thread is horrible. Op I am so angry on your behalf.

BatsUpMeNightie Sun 09-Oct-11 15:46:20

It's all very well hissy-fitting and telling people to fuck off Posie - but actually both those posters have a point. Are we seriously to believe that a contingent of sweaty men advance from the door to the urinals in a 'cocks out' position whilst deliberatly flapping them at the OP and that this having happened once and it upsetting her that she goes right back for some more day after day without taking firm and blunt action with management? Come onnnnnnnnnnnnn.

This sounds like dung to me.

Bledkr Sun 09-Oct-11 15:48:01

I aggree posie Op asked for advice about what to do not a fucking lie detector test,if you dont believe it dont bloody read it but dont accuse someone of lying if you have no proof.

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 15:56:06

Ignoring all the stupidity... Altinkum you have the right at your place of work to not be exposed to this

Apart from anything else, it is the height of fucking rudeness and disrespect to you by these men

I expect they would be highly aggrieved if you accidentally flicked some bleach at their tender regions, wouldn't they ?

Would it be worth coming at it from the Health and Safety aspect ? Most companies are afeared of Health and Safety legislation coming down hard on them. I think it a real shame that you would have to go this route though angry

PigletJohn Sun 09-Oct-11 15:59:23

I'm willing to wager that I've been in more men's rooms than most of the MNers, and it is not normal for men to walk around with their knobs flopping out. I don't want anyone looking to see how small exceptionally big mine is.

If I found a woman cleaner in there, I would be inclined to walk out and find another. And I might complain to the facilities manager.

Xenia Sun 09-Oct-11 16:08:49

Take a picture of them on your mobile phone.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PigletJohn Sun 09-Oct-11 16:29:44

If there was an "out of use for cleaning" sign, I would not go in

Unless it had been there for so long that I thought the cleaner had forgotten to take it down, or was inside having a fag.

Even if I did go in, I wouldn't have my cock out.

squeakytoy Sun 09-Oct-11 16:34:59

ok, rather than taking a photo, why not take a video with your phone, that will be easier to do and will be clearer to see too, if they are walking towards you with it all hanging out..

I have been in many toilets, mainly in airports that have got "cleaner at work" signs outside, and quite often the cleaner has been male, but it does not mean that the toilets are not to be used.

Uppity Sun 09-Oct-11 16:35:21

God, so many women have a vested interest in pretending that the appalling behaviour of some men, is normal.

This is sexual harassment, these men know what they're doing and they're doing it to intimidate.

It's vile, the men are vile and the women who defend them are handmaidens.

<Gavel>

BatsUpMeNightie Sun 09-Oct-11 16:47:30

I don't believe that all these men are marching en masse with their schlongs out waving them at the OP. And I don't believe that anyone would put up with it more than once. I also don't believe that women here are defending them and as for handmaidens - grin grin - how ridiculous!

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 09-Oct-11 16:47:57

She can't photo or video them; that would have to mean photoing or videoing every single man who uses the room (even just to collect stuff/wash hands) just in case he's one of the 20 out of 400 who are acting like this. Imagine the outcry!

Uppity Sun 09-Oct-11 17:06:25

Why don't you believe the OP?

What do you know about her that the rest of us don't?

Why should you disbelieve her?

Because women are hysterical liars who don't know their own minds when it comes to complaining about the bad behaviour of some men? Or what? Why should you assume she's lying?

PigletJohn Sun 09-Oct-11 17:18:11

Uppity, do you believe the people on here who are in the habit of using men's room?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 09-Oct-11 17:20:48

PigletJohn, I think the problem is that the people who mostly use mens' loos are men. And the kind of fuckwit who is flashing the OP are only doing it because they know she's a woman. They wouldn't do it in front of decent men.

PigletJohn Sun 09-Oct-11 17:23:49

"PigletJohn, I think the problem is that the people who mostly use mens' loos are men." I've never thought that a problem grin

I'm finding it difficult to imagine a town where you can recruit a workforce of knob-flopping weirdos.

Uppity Sun 09-Oct-11 17:33:43

PJ, the thing about knobboid men, is that they don't do their knobboid stuff in front of other men who they think might call them on it, or disapprove of it. So of course the men who have never seen men behave like this in a men's loo, won't have experienced this - just like they've never experienced having obscenities yelled at them in the street on a regular basis from the age of 12. So they won't know anything about it, it's not something women generally go on about because from the time it starts happening to us, we're told not to make a big deal out of it, this is what men ar like, this is what the do, and so by the time we're 20 or so, we've STFU about it and accept it as part of our normality. And then if we occasionally mention this to a man, they look at us as if we're mad, because it's not part of their normality,.

PigletJohn Sun 09-Oct-11 18:24:45

was it altinkum who said that 20 men are in the habit of walking round with the knobs out, or was it someone else?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 09-Oct-11 18:29:51

It was the OP in her OP, something like "I must have seen about 20 willies since then" ie since beginning the job.

PigletJohn Sun 09-Oct-11 18:39:02

yes, but "or I am cleaning in changing rooms, and they are using urinals" is a bit different from walking around waving them at her.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 09-Oct-11 18:47:05

Don't think op ever said they were being waved around, more that they were visible when they shouldn't have been. Had they waited to unzip when they got to the urinal (or better, cubicle) it wouldn't be an issue, but a small percentage of men are unzipping early when they know there is a woman in the room. (They know because of all the cleaning paraphernalia about.)

Uppity Sun 09-Oct-11 18:57:07

Oh really, so she never said waved around didn't she?

Why do people feel the need to undermine what she's saying in order to discredit and ridicule her?

It's like there's this instinctive, kneejerk need to undermine anything a woman says about men's bad behaviour. People really don't want to believe that men behave like this, do they?

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 19:14:50

Some people are attributing things to Altinkum that she never even said hmm

Why is that ?

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 09-Oct-11 19:15:04

Having rescanned the op's posts only, on Friday night at 23:57:39 she said, "...they are whipping it out left right and centre, even before they have entered the loo's."

Someone else may have used a bit more hyperbole re waving it around. I doubt the waving, personally, btw.

giyadas Sun 09-Oct-11 19:19:54

Uppity - your 17:33 post is spot on.

altinkum Sun 09-Oct-11 19:36:37

I would love to know Anycorpsefucker too confused

I would love to know what "drama's" I seem to have constantly?

I have never said they waved it about, I never said 20 men have exposed them to me together, I have said, I must have seen 20 Willy's since Ive been their (meaning since I took this position).

I will say again, it does not feel as if the men are deliberately exposing themselves to me, just that they have no consideration for me being their, or see me as one of the appliances, I have no idea why some twerp has said I go out my way to see Willy's, hmm honestly its shameful!, yes I'm a pervert,hmm I get my kicks out of feeling vulnerable and disrespected hmm.

Most of the men are considerate, easy going and respectful, only a small percentage of the men, I believe are used to taking a wee while a woman is present in the facility, I dont think its gang mentality, or anything like that, I simply think they just dont think about me being a woman in a male toilet.

It isn't along corridor either, its about 3 steps to my trolley to the inside of the changing room and then possibly another 7 steps, to the urinal, they still have whipped it out going past my trolley or on their way to the trolley, or even when I am cleaning the sinks.

I'm sick of repeating myself, I'm off to answer some emails I have received, and thank you for all the advice of most of you, the ones who disbelieve, sorry but deal with it, I cannot make you believe, nor do I have the time to explain or make you believe. any further in what I have said.

Uppity Sun 09-Oct-11 19:39:18

Thanks giyadas. I think it's quite important for people to know this stuff - as women, we get obscene gestures, actions and words thrown at us when we're on our own or with other women, all the time. When we are with men, the other men don't yell at us or wave their willies at us or whatever it is, because they respect other men's space and they only see women as part of other men's space, not as human beings in their own right. (And plus they don't want to get lamped by the man we're with.) And they won't do it either, if they're with men they know or suspect may not respect them for doing it. So therefore, many men are utterly oblivious to how common sexual harassment is, in the workplace, street, gym, cinema - everywhere we go when we're not with a man. (And we don't tell them because it's so normal to us that we don't feel it's worth a mention. Except in spaces like this.) And because men don't realise how common it is, they are astounded and sceptical when they hear stories like this. And because so many women are invested in denying how common this is and what it means, they also join up with the men to deny women's reality.

And bollocks to that. smile

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 19:45:12

Uppity, that post is so, so true

My DH is such a nice bloke, he sometimes thinks I am exaggerating stuff

you see (and he is a great bloke) it's not that he disbelieves me, it's just that he has no fucking idea none at all

thankfully, he listens, learns and adjusts even though it goes against all the other messages he receives sad

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 19:46:05

I think people who have no fucking idea are lucky

they are in a very priveliged position, you see

PigletJohn Sun 09-Oct-11 19:49:03

I was trying to get to grips with the difference between what the OP said and what others said. That is not the same as "kneejerk need to undermine"

"A woman says she's uncomfortable with men exposing themselves to her and you decide she must be lying.

So, I have taken the time to have a thorough look. Most of the more inflamatory language comes from other people who have not been there.
There are lot of posts by other people saying things such as

"flashing you on purpose." "waggling their cocks in her face saying "have a look at this".. "wave your willy at me?"...unzipping and whipping it out EN ROUTE and thereby flashing altinkum.. " ""whip his wanger out in front of a female employee" "whipped his penis out his trousers in nearly full view of everyone " "men getting their penises out and pissing in front of her " "when they are crossing the floor"..." keep his dick in his trousers not whip it out" "men wandering in with their pants half down" .."getting their penises out in front of a woman before they've even got close to the urinals"..."women exposed to genitalia"..."getting your cock out and walking down a corridor with it waving in the wind."..."men are exposing themselves in front of her when they are walking to the urinals"...
"The men are still coming in with their trousers open "..." taking out their penises whilst walking down a corridor and across a changing room "..."These guys are taking their dicks out and walking down the corridor with them out... "..."if you wanted to be modest and not wave your willy about"...""deliberatly flapping them at the OP" "schlongs out waving them at the OP" "walking towards a toilet with their cocks swinging in the air"..."These men are getting their dicks out whilst walking to a urinal though"..."They are flashing at her...Get the fuck off this site."..."get their willies out miles before the toilet"..."some of the men are coming in and exposing themselves to her"..."men were exposing themselves in the changing rooms in front of her on their way to the urinals."..."their trousers already unzipped before they are anywhere near the urinals, just so they can flap their bits in the breeze and a laugh at her expense while they are doing it."..."wander in with his penis flapping about"..."constant harassment by approximately 20 people who think flashing is a funny joke"

I accept that the OP said far less.

I am not trying to undermine anyone who knows what they are talking about. The behaviour described is abnormal and unacceptable.

However she did say
"have his willy out before he has even come through the entrance of the toilets"..."Willy's still lobed out"..." they see no wrong, in having a wee, while I am in the room, or next to them"..." I dont think these men are flashing at me, however they are exposing themselves to me, even if they are doing it unknowingly or thoughtlessly, or even inconsiderately."..."Im not sure why men want to look at each others cocks"

Andrewofgg Sun 09-Oct-11 19:49:37

Uppity Thanks for that last post.

Not for the first or last time on AIBU I'm embarrassed to be male. Also to be human: because some of my female fellow-humans have been showing such disrespect to OP.

I can only say that while I am no angel and don't pretend to be I cannot imagine why any man would or would want to act like this. I was made uncomfortable by the incident which I mentioned on 11.26 on Saturday, though it was not my fault, and though I laugh about it now years later.

Just what is wrong with so many of our species?

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 20:05:01

It was good wasn't it, Andrew

btw, you sound like my DH

he is fucking bemused by the minority of dickhead men too

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 20:07:03

it's not the majority

I know not one man who would piss in front of a female in this manner

it is rude and ignorant

I am aware that some men would though....inlike some of the disbelievers on this thread

just because you haven't experienced it does not mean it does not happen you fuckwits

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 20:07:19

unlike

I love Andrew a bit. He is like my friend David on Twitter who says sensible and reasonable things and comes across as a thoroughly nice bloke. He is also occasionally v funny with his scathing remarks.

I would say the same about dh, but he just makes this face shock and shakes his head sadly. Not quite so eloquent.

AnyCorpseFucker Sun 09-Oct-11 20:29:58

DH does a lot of "wtf" faces

and then a "what did they say ? Run that by me again..." confused

then "that is shit"

then "they need a talking to...go get 'em AF" with suggestions as to what to say grin

altinkum Tue 11-Oct-11 13:53:45

ok, thought id give you all a update, I had a meeting today with site manager and HR, as well as the owners of the company I work for.

They we're not surprised about the behavior, and I sort of got the feeling they had heard it before. They actually thought I was going to go in and speak about the state of the toilets, as in previous factory, they had problems with blocked loos due to clothing, full rolls of loo roll etc..., poop up walls, bogies, in cubicle walls etc... (fortunately I haven't had any of this).

Anyway,letters are getting sent out to all workers, even office staff and contractors involved in the factory.

CCTV, is being set up at the entrance doors, and we, have worked out a schedule, which works between the shift changes and finishing times, its very tight, but doable. If I am in the changing room, then no one will be allowed in, and if they are, a instant warning is given.

Company weren't surprised by the issues I had, and have took them very seriously, they are MAD as heck at my management team allowing it to continue for the time it has, and owner is not happy with him.

so feeling a little weird about that one, as do not want to get boss in trouble, however at the same time he left it to continue without dealing with the issues I HAD.

FearTricksPotter Tue 11-Oct-11 13:55:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PosiePetrifyingParker Tue 11-Oct-11 13:56:15

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY.

You have been the topic of mine and DH's conversations since I first read your OP. Really pleased for you.
xxx

NotJustClassic Tue 11-Oct-11 14:00:36

Wooo Hooo!
Great news! And your boss has got himself in trouble by not supporting you.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OriginalGhoster Tue 11-Oct-11 14:07:02

Well done, I'm glad they have taken you seriously [smil]

altinkum Tue 11-Oct-11 14:13:58

I am too, was incredibly nervous going in, like I was some kind of naughty school girl, but they we're lovely, took everything I said on board, and supported the new schedule I worked out.

Owner said she is not paying peoples wages to behave like cavemen, and gave me her personal number if any other issues arise. so I am happy cleaner today grin

Well done OP.

Mardymwahhaha Tue 11-Oct-11 14:19:23

Been mainly lurking on this thread but great news.

MrSpoc Tue 11-Oct-11 14:21:15

Only read first page and cannot be arsed to read the rest.

You are having a laugh arnt you. this is a wind up if not get a different job.

Andrewofgg Tue 11-Oct-11 14:22:04

Oh good, good, good.

What is to be done about men who are (quite innocently) there when you need to go in? Will some passing men be told to go in and tell them to hurry up and get out?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

altinkum Tue 11-Oct-11 14:39:12

"What is to be done about men who are (quite innocently) there when you need to go in? Will some passing men be told to go in and tell them to hurry up and get out?"

They asked for names, however I dont know any of them, and also I dont want them to get into trouble also, just to be considerate and respectful when I am cleaning the rooms, I still dont believe they do it intentionally either, they just see me as part of the furniture.

If thye enter when I am in the cleaning room, instant warning will be given (if they haven't told team leader a valid reason).

I think that's why she told the site manager to put CCTV in the entrances of the changing rooms, however I got the impression that it happened in the last factory and this time she wasn't putting up with it.

Thankyou to all, as I wouldn't have plucked the courage up and emailed without your help and advise.

WibblyBibble Tue 11-Oct-11 14:39:52

Put some really cold water (ice cubes in too) in a spray bottle. When one of these tossers comes in flashing his dick, be spraying the spray on the urinals to clean them and 'accidentally' spray him. 'Apologise' and suggest that if he doesn't like it, perhaps using the loos while cleaning is in progress needs to be risk assessed as luckily you weren't using any abrasive cleaning products at this point but you might have been and they really wouldn't want any willy-burns, would they?

I personally don't care how many penises I see in my life, but the manner which you describe them doing this suggests they are deliberately bullying you and it's not just men weeing.

altinkum Tue 11-Oct-11 14:42:34

sorry, I realised I haven't answered that question Andrew, the new time table is where I go and clean the rooms, 15 minutes after the shift, I have 20 mins to clean the rooms, and the men shouldn't be needing the facilities, in the time I am cleaning, or if they do, they use another bathroom, or wait until I have finished.

Andrewofgg Tue 11-Oct-11 15:01:29

altinkum That's a good result. As long as they have reasonable warning not to enter when you are due and somewhere else to go if they really need to, which I gather they will have.

All the best and have no mercy if there is any repetition.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Tue 11-Oct-11 15:06:44

Excellent result, altinkum, I'm really pleased for you. smile

WineAndPizza Tue 11-Oct-11 15:14:57

Delighted for you Altinkum, although this is absolutely the outcome that should have happened the very first time you brought it up, this shouldn't be a triumph or a victory but a normal response to this problem.

When I read this thread title I really thought 'I bet the MNers will be out in force in their support on this one.' I was so shocked by page after page of vile comments and insults and total disbelief and scorn of Altinkum's post.

I'm very sorry to hear of the awful experiences you've had in the past Altinkum. Regardless of whether people have suffered through rape or assault, though, we all have an absolute right to feel safe and comfortable at work. You should not have to expect to see mens genitalia in your working environment if you have said that makes you feel uncomfortable and followed all procedures correctly.

There are other provisions for the men to make use of while you are cleaning and it is ridiculous that they have ignored all signs and warnings.

I'm very pleased you've got this resolved but completely horrified and disgusted by the responses of some of the people on here, including amongst them people whose opinions I normally value on here.

AnyPhantomFucker Tue 11-Oct-11 17:27:12

I am glad to read your update, Alt

and pleased to see mrspoc make a dick of himself, yet again smile

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Tue 11-Oct-11 21:16:31

So glad they have been sensible about this. Can't hurt that the owner is female, she probably doesn't like having random cocks waved at her either...

But you say you haven't have a phantom shitter yet?! Lucky you, it seemed on the 'weirdest colleague' thread, practically everyone had had one. <boak>

thatsnotmybumitstoowobbly Tue 11-Oct-11 21:20:07

I've been reading this but not posted yet - but well done altinkum for making your voice heard over this smile

And I like the sound of the factory owner - 'Owner said she is not paying peoples wages to behave like cavemen' - yep, damn right she's not.

macysmummy21 Tue 11-Oct-11 21:25:30

Isn't there a way to lock the door while cleaning?

I second finding a way to block the door, either lock it or push your trolley up against it.

And then put a big sign up saying "No Entry until _ Cleaning In Progress. Please Use ___" and just get in and out as quick as you can.

Also try to clean the toilets AFTER shift changes so it's least busy.

It seems to be quite common from a quick Google though hun.

Altinkum - well done to you!

I'm so pleased, it must have taken a lot of courage for you to go in and speak out like that.

macysmummy21 Tue 11-Oct-11 21:27:49

Oops just read your update, great result :-)

rhondajean Tue 11-Oct-11 21:35:47

HOORAY

Well done you.

Excellent news.

theinet Tue 11-Oct-11 21:49:32

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Andrewofgg Tue 11-Oct-11 22:05:39

Katie I'm sure you have been longer on MN than I, but I am reaching for the largest sickbag I can find. Who the hell needs to say such things?

Uppity Tue 11-Oct-11 22:09:09

Someone with nothing better to do with their life than trawl the internet looking to upset, irritate or offend people.

Seriously, the internet does regrettably occasionally attract these types and they should be ignored.

Don't feed it.

AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen Tue 11-Oct-11 22:15:23

Brilliant news, altinkum. Well done for standing up for yourself and getting the result you wanted. Shame that you needed to do that in these times of <ahem> equality and decency. But your story (and some reactions to it) show that we do need to keep fighting, exhausting though it is sometimes,

Hope it all gets much better for you now.

Uppity Tue 11-Oct-11 22:18:55

congrats btw op, glad it all worked out well in the end

moreyear Tue 11-Oct-11 23:33:38

I am so pleased for you OP and am very relieved that your employers took this matter so seriously.

I wasn't sure MNHQ would delete that revolting post by theinet but I'm glad they have.

Guess mine went for the fuck the fuck off grin

Andrew I have no idea what the motivation is. But I'm glad it's gone smile

AnyPhantomFucker Tue 11-Oct-11 23:45:45

Katie...am sure MNHQ will have had several reports about that post

AnyPhantomFucker Tue 11-Oct-11 23:49:35

do an advanced search...you will find it illuminating

Shiregirl Tue 11-Oct-11 23:52:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Have searched. Am illuminated grin

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 12-Oct-11 00:06:54

the chastising of children is an interesting one, is it not ? hmm

i used to work on a building site, 200 men and me (none of them looked like the coke advert i have to say)

All of them were lovely, i was looked after like a princess and yes, i saw willys in the chaning rooms and used to laugh.

As i was a first aider, i had a fab one. They'd come in with a cut finger trying one on, I'd say drop your trousers and cough.

Very quiet sick bay once that got round [laugh]

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 12-Oct-11 00:15:54

MY DH works on building sites

If the men so much as wolf whistle at women walking past, it is a disciplinary offence

Sexist, intimidating, neanderthal behaviour is not tolerated like it used to be and rightly so

Thankfully, we have sex discrimination laws, so certainly the legal framework supports women (if they don't feel too intimidated to seek them out)

unfortunately, society as a whole has a lot of catching up to do...as evidenced by some of the posts on this thread

AnyPhantomFucker Wed 12-Oct-11 00:18:20

btw, MAM my last post was not specifically directed at you

it's just your mention of building sites jogged me to post again

Yy very interesting AF as was the apparent sexual confusion. To willy or not to willy. That is the question.

altinkum Wed 12-Oct-11 00:46:40

"the chastising of children is an interesting one, is it not ?"

????

Don't want to know the rest, (deletion of thread).

LoveBeingAWitch Wed 12-Oct-11 07:21:37

Re building sites, lots of dhs family and friends are in the trade and tbh are much more interested in funding ways to laugh and put one over on each offer, sometimes it does involve willies but not always.

Jenypi Wed 12-Oct-11 08:00:09

Yeah laugh and point!

Oblomov Wed 12-Oct-11 08:15:07

Came to this a bit late. This thread is a classic, non ?
We had it all. Troll, MH, liar, previous drama's. What a very odd thread. Glad it is finally resolved. Poor OP.

ChippingIn Thu 13-Oct-11 20:33:02

Alt - what a brilliant result. Has it been working out OK.

Shame you stopped being a SW - but I can well see why! I hope this forces your ex-boss to pull his socks up or collect the unemployment benefit!!

altinkum Tue 18-Oct-11 09:32:29

been working out well ChipIn, although think I am now the person to avoid on the factory floor. grin However for the time being, its a job, I am looking for something that gives me more stimulation, as the job is incredibly repetitive, and also even tho I am only there 3 hours, its very boring and lonesome.

so trying to get a waitress, hotel job, which is only monday to friday, I miss being a SW, it was my ultimate career and my ambition, however me doing jobs that I am doing, is better for the family.

I have a hearing next week with the employment tribunal, so fingers crossed, boss gets his arse kicked to kingdom come.

Triumph19 Thu 20-Oct-11 13:33:05

You have to be careful because you the cleaner could be arrested.
A man who objects to a female cleaner in the toilets could call the police and have you arrested.

It is undisputable that a woman in a male toilet and vice versa could result in a breach of the piece.
If a policemen is called he would have to act.
You have a duty to ensure no men are in there before entering and put signs up.
You could be prosecuted.
You could be charged with voyerism.

Most men, me included would object to a female cleaner in a male toilet whilst a man was using it.
You could be a pervert for all I know.
You must close the toilet and put signs up.

Many women and men are arrested for entering toilets of the opposite gender.
The charge is not always voyerism but an activity that is likely to result in a "breach of the piece".
I think many men would call the police if a woman was in the toilet.

Snorbs Thu 20-Oct-11 13:44:45

"I think many men would call the police if a woman was in the toilet."

I think men would do no such thing, particularly in the scenario the OP described where the toilets were a) in a factory and b) the woman was a cleaner who c) had put signs up saying that the toilets were being cleaned.

If an employee in that company really did feel uncomfortable about having a woman cleaner in a male toilet then the appropriate way for them to deal with it would be to take it up with his boss and/or HR. You'd have to be a complete loon to call the police in that situation.

FearTricksPotter Thu 20-Oct-11 13:45:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SardineQueen Thu 20-Oct-11 13:47:49

Triumph what a load of nonsense. Loads of women' toilets have male cleaners around here.

altinkum I am so pleased that you have worked this out and that the company responded so well. Really chuffed for you smile

ChippingInToThePumpkinLantern Thu 20-Oct-11 13:48:53

Triumph - pft what a lot of nonsense.

Alt - I'm glad it's working out better. Good luck finding something more interesting. It's a shame you have had to make such a sacrifice for the family though sad

peanutbutterjellytime Thu 20-Oct-11 14:11:54

Well done op, brilliant result.

I took a cleaning job in a supermarket a couple of years after being made redundant and came up against exactly the same when cleaning the male staff toilets. Most of the male staff were very gentlemanly and went and used another toilet or came back when I'd finished but there were a select few who didn't seem to care and would just "whip it out" and use the urinals with me cleaning in there. At that point I'd walk and wait outside till they'd finished. The result being that it took me twice as long to do the job.

I lasted a grand total of 3 months in that job! So well done for fighting your corner and getting the dignity and respect you deserve.

Triumph19 Thu 20-Oct-11 15:58:28

My point is if you do not put signs up and you are of the opposite gender
then it is likely to result in a breach of the peace. Possibly not in a factory sittuation.

At nightclubs if a girl goes into a male toilet and a man objects he could and has called the police.
She has no legal right to be there, by definition of her sex, and it can lead to a breach of the peace.

Woman and men have been arrested for this.

Grevling Thu 20-Oct-11 16:01:02

Have you tried not looking?

giyadas Thu 20-Oct-11 16:03:38

triumph - What does that have to with the situation the OP is in?

Snorbs Thu 20-Oct-11 16:05:01

Triumph, did you actually bother to read the thread? Eg, the bit where the OP wrote "I have a yellow sign on front entrance, my trolley and a do not use sign on door"? Because, honestly, you're making yourself look like a complete bell-end.

altinkum Thu 20-Oct-11 16:05:44

truimph, what has that got to do with my situation?.

Thankyou for all the responses, however since owner has had a word/letters/meetings, all has been well, even tho I am now to be avoided on the floor, it seems anyway grin.

grumplestilskin Thu 20-Oct-11 16:10:29

It wouldn't bother me, but IMO there is a difference between seeing penises as a nurse where it is essential to the job, and here where it is not! there is no need for it

Triumph19 Thu 20-Oct-11 16:13:40

If you have sign up and they still come in then 100% this is sexual harrassment.

That should be your starting point threaten with a claim and I am sure it will stop quickly.
Sorry I scan read most thisngs and missed this.

Triumph19 Thu 20-Oct-11 16:17:49

Put a sign up and men still come in and expose themsleves.
The company needs to act urgently, you could bring a claim and retire on the proceeds.

This is very clear case of harrassment.

CobOnTheCorn Thu 20-Oct-11 16:20:03

Is there an alternative facility for them to use while you clean? As FearTricksPotter suggests, a sign directing them elsewhere might help.

giyadas Thu 20-Oct-11 16:23:13

<despairs>

Oh well, glad you got it sorted Altinkum. And good luck finding something else in the future. smile

PigletJohn Thu 20-Oct-11 16:33:38

Triumph and Cob, we've already been through all this. It's an old thread.

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