in thinking that children don't see in colour?

[Vallhala]

With thanks to Kimi for bringing this to mind.

I'm white and was brought up in an inner-city, multi-cultural environment, back in the days when to say someone was "coloured" wasn't an insult (just to give you an idea of how ancient I am!). My friends were just that - not black, not white, but friends. I knew no different.

I remember my cousin, when we were about 7 or 8, telling us all that her "Black friend was coming to tea". My Auntie corrected her... "V, it's not important that she's Black, all that matters is that she's your friend and it's rude to mention her colour". I went home and that sunny evening stood at the window watching my friends play outside.

"Muuuum!"

"Yes?"

"You know A?"

"Erm... well, yes, I should do, she lives 5 doors from us, is in your class at school and is your best friend!"

"But Mum! She's BLACK!!"

My mother roared with laughter! I swear that until that day I had never noticed that A was Black. Well, of course I did in a way, I have the benefit of vision, but I never saw A as "different".

For the record, many years later another child of that Auntie adopted a Black lad, whom he brought up alongside his natural-born (white) son. The "boys" are in their 40s now and from day one have referred to each other as "My brother".

It all makes me think... AIBU or is colour prejudice a matter of nurture and not nature? Or is my experience unusual?

[Mumcentreplus]

imo colour prejudice is learned behaviour...children notice 'differences' but they do not treat anyone differently because of them...I remember when i was an NN so many fights I broke-up over a new black doll... white children fighting with white children ,black children fighting with black children , asian children and black /white children.. so on and so forth...that doll was just the doll of the moment!..next week something else?!..children do not care!...adults make them notice, make them care and begin to have opinions apart the fact they are brown or pink or green with red spots!!...I never think about a persons colour just their character ...thats how I was brought up

[Mumcentreplus]

hey btw Val

[ShowOfHands]

I do think that children don't notice a lot of things as long as they aren't seen to 'matter' iyswim. So gender is irrelevant to them until they develop a concept of their own gender and start relating it to others.

I grew up in a very white society, nobody that wasn't white or English at my school or college and nobody in my home town which is strange looking back as it wasn't until I went on holiday abroad at 16 that I even spoke to anybody that wasn't white. That's really weird actually. Weird in that I didn't really notice it.

My Dad is only 52 but when he was growing up in a similar community to my own from childhood there was a local children's home that had its first black child taken in. Local parents protested outside until he was sent away. Disgusting that it happened at all but fairly recent really so I found it even more shocking. My Dad says that he remembers very clearly not understanding why it was a problem but being reassured by everybody over 5ft that it was.

[Mumcentreplus]

learned/irrational behaviour..so sad..

[Rockbird]

I remember arguing the toss with my parents when I was 8 or 9 about a family that I went to school with who were black. They had said something in passing and I said, 'what do you mean black, they're not black?'.

This was the 70's and there was a fair smattering of black, Asian, Chinese etc in my school but they were just them, no one had ever labelled them and so, when my parents did, I couldn't compute it relating to my friends. As an adult looking back, I can confirm they were definitely black

[MillyR]

I am not sure if this is relevant, but it somehow is in my mind. When I was at Primary school, some white girls were calling girls of Pakistani descent 'pakis.' It was a gang of white girls surrounding the two girls. One of the girls said, yes, my parents are from Pakistan. Why does that matter?'

And there isn't an answer to that. I realised watching that incident that it does not matter. I think unless you are brought up with parents who encourage you to be racist, any child can just see that racism is nonsensical.

[Mumcentreplus]

Milly i think you hit the mark...it really does not matter unless someone else tells you it does..its about encouragement and the perpetuation of prejudice ideas...because basically raciam makes no sense

[Mumcentreplus]

racism..

[ToccataAndFudge]

I think they most definitely do see in colour to some degree.

All 3 of my DS's have gone through stages when young of thinking that all black men that we see while out and about are their daddy (much to my as they have all shouted "DADDY" at random men in the street).

I am white, XH is black.

When we visited Zimbabwe when DS2 was 2 1/2yrs old he looked at a picture in my exFIL's house and told me "that is a picture of someone like you mummy" (it was of a white woman).

I think that pointing out that someone is black/white/purple with yellow spots as a description is totally different from prejudice based on skin colour.

It's a fact - DS's dad is black, their mother (me) is white.

Just like I have blonde hair and XH has dimples >

[ToccataAndFudge]

so yes you're correct that colour prejudice is nuture, but basic descriptions of people is not prejudice.

[Mumcentreplus]

Childre notice colour...I mean who wouldn't??..I remember when we were kids we saw a man we were convinced was our dad because he had the same beard?? we ran up to him shouting 'daddy!'with my mum apologising profusely..lol..kids notice the obvious..but they dont treat anyone different because of it..they just get on with it...adults teach children to make colour a barrier and issue

[ToccataAndFudge]

lol Mumcentre - I still remember DS1 just after he started talking bouncing up and down in front of the TV very excited shouting dada dada dada............it was a programme about Pygmy Tribal groups

I don't think the OP's situation that she describes really shows any colour prejudice though.

DS1 was about 7 or 8 when he first really started asking questions about colour, and why XH and I have different colour skin etc etc.

[Vallhala]

PMSL that your children have been convinced that a man in the street is their daddy because of a noticable feature, be that colour or a beard! Poor Mum, having to apologise to a perfect stranger!



But I see what you mean... yes, as children we do notice the differences, albeit that it took this poster some years! But do we dilike on the basis of colour (or beards for that matter!) until we are taught to? My feeling is that we don't.

[ToccataAndFudge]

in general no we don't dislike based on what people look like without the nuture (although I do have friends with DC that have been ver wary of people that "look" a particular way, regardless of colour so it can happen).

But the OP doesn't describe such a situation, she describes something totally different.

Actually DS3 called a rather hot nice looking bloke in the bank yesterday daddy.........I wouldn't have minded - but he had a ring on his finger >

[Mumcentreplus]

Val i get what you mean..you have a friend and she's your friend..you don't even notice her colour and if you do its not important..its like noticing she has brown/green eyes ..but thats the point..you didn't notice..it was not important to you or your friendship and it has never been for me..if you are a good friend thats all that matters to me..I really believe its taught..through prejudice and lack of experience or understanding...people are just people...arse-holes are just arse-holes..colour does not come into it

[Mumcentreplus]

seriously...we were waiting for our dad at an Airport (if I remember correctly) and this man had the beard...poor man had 3 children trying to climb his legs..lol

[ToccataAndFudge]

sorry I still don't get it - how is someone using colour as a pure description prejudice or a lack of understanding in any shape or form??

Would you get het up about it if someone said "yes my friends with the blond hair" is coming to play? Or my friend that wears glasses, it's an innocent description, it only becomes more if you make it more (or imo, in the case of the OP's situation where the Aunt decided it was wrong to mention the colour).

I have 3 friends called Jo - to easily disintinguish between which I'm talking about when talking to other friends I use descriptions.

[longfingernails]

Babies are "racist" at the age of 6 months

www.newsweek.com/id/214989

Very interesting article, highly recommended. Includes a funny bit where kids are introduced to a black Santa Claus.

Basically the gist of the research is that parents have to actively talk about racism, not just mumble platitudes about equality.

Integration by itself isn't enough. As with many things with children, they require explicit guidance.

[ToccataAndFudge]

strange study that only looked at Caucasian children/families.

I teach my mixed race children (one black parent, one white) that everyone is equal.

[Mumcentreplus]

and thats the point everyone is???..its not frickin rocket science??..just treat everyone how 'you' would want to be treated no matter what,who,where they are..we are humans and thats what binds us

[ToccataAndFudge]

and tbh race relations in the UK and US are somewhat different I think.

I see they did do another study with black children, and white childre - but again no mixed race children

[ToccataAndFudge]

no the article linked to says that using "everyone's equal" and other wishywashy terms isin't enough (in the US)

[MillyR]

I don't someone to treat me the way they want to be treated. I want them to find out about me and work out how I want to be treated. We are not all the same. I think children can understand that we are all equal but also be taught that differences are interesting.

[MillyR]

That post should have started 'I don't want someone' not "I don't someone'

It is clearly too late for me.

[multivac]

we tell kids that "pink" means for girls and "blue" is for boys. "White" and "black" are mysteries we leave them to figure out on their own.

Um - no 'we' don't; and no, we don't. I found that article laughable.