Someone today whom I respect immensely and regard as kind, told me that in her opinion children with disabilities like dyslexia etc (so ampresuming the whole gamut of SEN - SN) shoudln't be in MS schools because of the effect on the other kids.

She is someone who though not employed by school has access to DS1 (ASD) and ds2 (SEN not sure what) during school time in a volunteer role. I pretty much trust her.

DS3 attends an SNU placement, but I do wonder how many people really share that attitude. My experience and belief tells me that different kids benefit from different settings so parents should have final say (it took me 2 years to get ds3 his place, and I face a battle now to get ds1 into SN Comp placement).

?

i think some people do - probably more than would admit it TBH

i do agree with your last paragraph whole heartedly

The woman is an arse. She shouldn't be working in a child enviroment if she has those views. I'd hate for my ds2 to be lookde after by someone with those views.

hmm, wonder how she would feel about my friend then? He is the teacher. he has dyslexia and other learning difficulties. he went to university, back when they didnt recognise sn in quite the same way as they do now. he got a 2.1, in chemistry. He did a PGCE and taught secondary science for many years, now he teaches sn kids.
would she disapprove of him?

No i don't agree with her.

I think it varies depending on the child. In my opinion ADHD and very badly behaved children (often the same thing) do cause the other children to have less attention, so them being there is to the detriment of the other children.

If it is just a learning difficulty, without the extreme behaviour, then I think it is less of an issue.

Dyslexia should be mainstream. I think most children would benefit from being taught to read/ write as if they were dyslexic from the off: it would benefit those who are 'mildly' dyslexic, give a good start to those with severe dyslexia and be a positive boon to those without.

I firmly believe in inclusion but it is under-funded and far too many children are left to suffer in mainstream schools without the support they need. However, some kids simply can't thrive in mainstream schools and they should not be forced to attend schools which can not cater for their needs.

I don't agree with the woman, unless there is no provision within the school for SN pupils in which case it would not be an ideal setting for any of the children. Surely with the right support a child would be absolutely fine in any school.

Also I think it benefits other children to become more aware of SN whatever they may be, it encourages them to be accepting of other peoples difficulties and weaknesses whether it be mentally or physically.

But nowadays there are so many children with mild sn in schools, that if they all left mainstream schools, we'd have very small schools.
From my observations chatting to other parents, once I mention my ds having dyspraxia, and getting extra help for it, almost everyone seems to have some story about their child, or friend's child needing extra help for some reason, either long-term or for a short time.
It's so common-place now, and wonderful that children can get extra help without feeling different, that I'm amazed at this woman's attitude.

As you said, depends on the specific child, not other parents wishes. My eldest (aspergers) goes to school with an ASD unit, he is taught in mainstream with access for social skills etc in unit. he is so happy, has come on leaps and bounds, it has changed all of our lives. I faced massive negativity to him in purely mainstream previous school, but if I had felt it benefited him to stay I would have fought the bigoted bitch mothers. It just so happened MY decision was that MY son's needs were not being met. I have two children without SN, if they had SN children in their class (they may well have, I don't know) I would not judge either way, it is up to the parents and the SENCO etc to decide what works best.
However, this is bound to be my attitude, I have faced this issue head on. Parents are all looking out for their own children's best interests, I can kind of understand them not being happy with the extra time it takes to manage SN children. the education system should give the funding to support them properly, even if that means 1-1 in mainstream school.

i agree with merle.
dyslexia is one thing but imo if there is a behavioural issue that disrupts lessons and takes the teachers time away from the other 29 kids in the class then that is hardly fair on them is it? or the teacher?

I think it needs to be on a case by case basis. There are so many variables that come under the SN tag that you can't really say "No SN kids in MS schools" or "All SN kids in MS schools" neither are right.

There are times I think where everyone (especially the child with SN) would be better off in a school able to cater to those needs.

She is wrong, am curious to know who else she would ban, probably not just SN, but anyone else who doesn't fit in with her extremely narrow mindset.

This person is a duffer - there is actually provision in law that SEN kids should have a right to a mainstream education, given parental wish and also given THE FACT THAT THEIR EDUCATION WILL NOT DISRUPT THE EDUCATION OF OTHERS. So the law is very clear and if an SEN kid is in mainstream, they have passed both tests and have as much of a legal right to be there as her little "normal" kids. Bigot in sheep's clothing, suggest not a kind person at all. I also think it is very good for the normally functioning kids to mix in class with kids of all disabilities - it will hopefully make for a more tolerant society in the future. Comparison: kids brought up in all-white areas/schools, tend to be less accepting of racial differences. All races in our schools means kids grow up colour-blind. Same holds true of disabilities imho.

horses for courses as they say - DS has aspergers, dyspraxia and dyslexia. there simply was NO place he would have fitted in - he was too bright for a specialist placement, yet far too naive for mainstream.

so where do you put them?

he stayed in mainstream - academically he did really well, and it enabled him to go on and do A levels with a view to uni.

socially he bombed. had a terrible time with bullying but most of it luckily went over his head - not mine though. i found his schooling the most soul destroying hurtful experience ever, though now looking back it was probably the right place in the circumstances simply because there was NO alternative. he certainly didnt hold anyone else back or disrupt the class - he suffered far more at their hands than he made them suffer.

It depends on the child. Certain types of SN, eg aggressive ASD or severe CP should probably be dealt with in special schools purely because the child will be given the attention they need in a very small class.

Dyslexia, on the other hand, is a pretty mild learning difficulty so shouldbe handled in mainstream with appropriate extra support.

My ASD son gave far more to his mainstream school than he got out of it. He taught the other kids so much about tolerance, patience appreciation of differences, definitions of normality etc. When he went to a special school in yr4 it because of what he needed not because he was "harming" anyone else's education. He is now 18 and at the local further ed college and is often approached by kids who remember him from when he was 8 or 9. So he clearly made a long lasting impression and had a positive impact on them.

Your friend is so very very wrong.

i think it depends on the child and how much they disrupt the rest of the class, which in turn depends on there being sufficient support in terms of SENCO and TA etc. for the teacher.

so, i don't think that putting all children into mainstream then expecting one teacher to deal with 30 children of widely differing needs and abilities is right, but i do think that with sufficient support mainstream school can be right for many SEN children (though not all).

and... g&t children also need to be catered for and challenged as much as SEN children need to be catered for.. you can't just teach to the average.

Oh my God, I am disabled, I never saw dyslexia as a disability,

I think there are so many SEN/SN children in school now that it is a silly thing for her to say, but she is entitled to her opinion just like everyone else.

VicarInA ds3 attends a SNU where allkidscan be integrated as much as they are able,with a 1-1:he spends most timein unit atm but otehrs are very able (one child on 8th centile all round IIRC) and access allMScalsses with SNU support. I am hoping to get something similar in palce.

She is kind wrt how she behaves and interacts with the children, I have worked with her and know that for sure.

I do think her beliefs are influenced by the school being quite academic Church school, but it is not selective and all catchments children are taken over religosity so attracts a lot of aprents who think they are getting what they are not,if that makes sense?

I decided to ask so I could actually know rather than wonder. As such will not be tackling individual viewpoints myself (others can obv), please feel free to be honest.

I think that a lot depends on the child and their social skills. There is also a huge difference between integration (where SN kids are just plonked in mainstream without resources) and inclusion (where funds are given to meet the child's needs.) A child with severe CP maybe exceptionally bright and it would be a traverty to deny them the opportunity to do GCSEs.

Special schools are not a panacera. Many special schools have problems with a limited range of courses and a culture of low expectations. Prehaps in an idea world you would have a specialist unit on a mainstream site so that children with SN can enjoy the better facilites of a mainstream school.

However a lot of children are in special school, not because of disablity but because they have been permamentally excluded for behavioural problems. Putting a child who has already failed in mainstream back into mainstream seems a bit cruel.

I think they work well in our county where there are several different types of special school, but if all types of SN are plonked in a complex needs school then imagine that no child is truely catered for. A child with severe behavioural problems due to child abuse has different needs to a child with ASD or a child who is profoundly deaf.

In someways I can see the argue for children with severe dyslexia or autism being in specialist units on a mainstream site. At the moment a common solution is to dump them in bottom sets with low ablity children. This leads to behavioural problems and lack of achievement.

(But will say fluffes that I think G&T kids are catered for in this school as the norm tbh, they are doing Romeo and Juliet / Midsummer night'sDream in yr 3,and classical mythology in yr 4-pretty demanding stuff I think)

DS3 is SN and G&T I think, apparently is massively over average in object assembly and associated skills. As far as I can work out that just means he is good at jigsaws?

When my daughter who has SLD attended a MS (high achieving) primary school some of the parents complaimed about her holding the others back! They were 4 years old FFS and it was a class of 17!

Unfortunately, I think many people have this attitude.

What effect on other kids? Being forced to accept that the world isn't a homogenous place, that everyone is different, to learn compassion, to broaden their minds... yes I can see that would be a disaster

I think I think that kids with special educational needs, vary so much in what helps their needs, they are often ill served by being in mainstream.

I think some do beautifully in that environment, and the rest of the class are not negatively impacted upon by it, often the opposite.

I think some children absolutely blossom when they are taught in the way that is right for them. We have a special communications unit, which covers dyslexia and other speech and language problems, and children who have failed miserably in a regular class, have developed terrible behaviour issues and had such low self-esteem that it makes you want to cry have gone on to acheive a good handful of GCSEs when they get informed teaching with a bunch of kids 'like them'.

I think you are right that parents often know best, but many of our dyslexic students have dyslexic parents and are so averse to the whole school system, they struggle to make a decision.

For other special needs, I think children can benefit from ready acces to OTs, physios etc - ideal world emoticon.

As a parent, I don't want my child's education to suffer and I guess we are all the same.