naked toddlers showering at the public swimming pool

(210 Posts)
Danthe4th Mon 19-Oct-09 21:25:43

At our local swimming pool it is glass sided and the showers are in full few of the veiwing area, and the car park at a push.

I take my 4 year old for his swimming lessons on a wednesday morning, they also have the mums and tots class. I sit watching my sons class and the previous class are using the showers.

Why do mums strip their children off so they shower naked. I'm at the point when i'm going to say something, but do I say it to mum or management.Several children do this.

There are often workmen, strangers, dads whoever wondering about. I just don't think its necessary to strip children naked, why can mums not leave their costumes on.

I find myself scanning the area to see if anyone is looking, it just worries me.Am I being unreasonable.

Danthe4th Mon 19-Oct-09 21:27:20

thats full view of the viewing area

Lulumama Mon 19-Oct-09 21:27:26

i think it is so very sad to see other dads and men in general as perveted paedos who need to be kept away from young children

YABU and it is such a shame that men arelumped together as one amorphous mass of child abusers

MillyR Mon 19-Oct-09 21:27:30

YABU.

Mine would play in the paddling pool and the surrounding area in the park naked when they were toddlers.

Why on earth does it matter?

Meglet Mon 19-Oct-09 21:27:42

They are toddlers. It doesn't matter. Mums are probably trying to get all the chlorine off their skin.

hester Mon 19-Oct-09 21:28:39

What worries you specifically, Danthe4th? What would you say to mum or management is the problem? Is this about protecting the children, or something else?

I'm not having a go, just trying to understand what is worrying you about this.

Lulumama Mon 19-Oct-09 21:28:41

if you had said that you had seen strange men taking pics on a camera phone or digital camera, then you would not be unreasonable

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:28:54

YABU. Why should toddlers not be naked for a shower - so what if there are builders, workmen around? And do you mean workmen or general workers male and female? dads? why not? If its a problem, why not mothers and fathers? and why should mum's leave their children's costumes on? Suggesting dads do not take their children swimming?

A wind up, surely, or at the very least not well thought through hmm

PacificWerewolfwoohood Mon 19-Oct-09 21:28:58

IMVHO, YABU - well, a bit. I think we worry about this kind of thing too much. Most people are not paedophiles.
I just hate the anxious/paranoid society I am living in - sorry, one of my bugbears: don't get me started on Health and Safety madness.

Anyway, ignore me, I am lose moralled continental European wink.

<<climbs off soap box>>

ruddynorah Mon 19-Oct-09 21:29:18

you're being ridiculous.

emkana Mon 19-Oct-09 21:29:33

ya def bu

I agree that it's awful to assume that any man must be a potential child abuser.

And even if there was the odd one with horrible thoughts in his head, I personally would feel it doesn't matter? No actual harm is done to the children?

Agree with the others. What would be your reaction to seeing a naked toddler on the beach? Not that their parents should make them wear a costume, I hope. This is no different.

Toddlers can be on the beach naked, can't they? So why not at the swimming pool?

(not in the swimming pool, but that's only cos I don't trust their bladder control)

LIZS Mon 19-Oct-09 21:29:58

yabu , get a sense of proportion

morningpaper Mon 19-Oct-09 21:30:20

YABU and mad

inveteratenamechanger Mon 19-Oct-09 21:31:25

YABVU to assume that every man who is not directly related to a child is a potential pervert.

IwishIwasmoreorganised Mon 19-Oct-09 21:31:37

YABU.

What on earth is wrong with showering a child naked to get the chlorine off them while their mother / father / whoever is taking them to their swimming lesson is with them?

I honestly don't see the problem

Ivykaty44 Mon 19-Oct-09 21:31:49

yabu shock

ThePinkOne Mon 19-Oct-09 21:32:50

Considering a recent news story surely naked toddlers showering in an all-female changing room would be just as worrying but you seem to be focussing on men being... what actually? Some kind of threat?

Danthe4th Mon 19-Oct-09 21:34:01

Its about protecting the children hester, recently a friend was followed for over a mile by a strange man at the same pool and its just got me worried, i've been on some recent safeguarding children courses and have read too much maybe, but I still don't think it's necessary.

MsSpentYouth Mon 19-Oct-09 21:34:13

Sorry but I am with OP, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with nekidness, it would just concern me that if it was that easy to see in then if someone did take a fancy to looking they could just loiter around.

I would take it to the swimming pool and ask them to make it a bit more private.

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:34:56

Its a wind up. Course it is. Or some media type fishing on views of male/female paedophilia, stereotpying.

'There are often workmen, strangers, dads whoever wondering about'

YABU

Danthe4th Mon 19-Oct-09 21:36:28

There is no changing room the showers are directly next to the pool its all open plan and can be seen from outside. You then go to a cubicle. Every pool is different I know but our newish one is very open.

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:36:38

danthe4th so what about females? mothers? what about the woman who worked in a nursery who abused children? Why are you concerned specifically about men thats what I do not get.

MsSpentYouth Mon 19-Oct-09 21:37:00

And as fortoddlers getting nakid on the beach, I actually prefer my DS to go nakid as it stops any rash from the sand rubbing in his nappy. But it isn't a regular plcae for nakid children to be and so wouldn't attract perverts to loiter.

And this isnt about them being male. I wouldn't like it if a woman loitered outside either.

Kbear Mon 19-Oct-09 21:37:35

the whole reason it isn't private is to protect people/children....

Monsterspam Mon 19-Oct-09 21:37:40

They are babies ffs!

I always strip off the children's swim suits in the shower. They are knee to elbow ones, so I find it much easier to strip them off, shower them, then wrap them in towels till we get to the cubicle.

Lulumama Mon 19-Oct-09 21:37:55

sgree with pav, and i made the point, why are you only referring to men and even other dads as potential peadophiles.....

morocco Mon 19-Oct-09 21:38:21

where is this weird swimming pool?

EdgarAllenPoo Mon 19-Oct-09 21:39:17

YABu - but you probably know that

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:39:29

{sorry lulumama did not register your previous question smile, too busy ranting grin}

pigletmania Mon 19-Oct-09 21:41:10

Why on earth is everyone a troll who asks thought provoking questions pavlov, there is a thread on AIBU about unfairly labelling people trolls because they dare ask a controversial question. I do agree with Dan4th, i would not like random people looking at me neekkid in the shower and would not like that for my dd, just something i feel uncomfortable about. I hate labelling all men paedophiles and perves thats not what i am on about. I would have dd shower naked in a swimming pool shower if it was more private unisex or not.

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:41:20

DD runs naked around a <whispers> family changing room, with men as well as women there shock. I chose to go in this one, not the female one, as DH who is with me, can help me with dd.

Lulumama Mon 19-Oct-09 21:41:37

not at all pav, it is a point worth reiterating, esp. in light of the nursery worker convicted recently

alwayslookingforanswers Mon 19-Oct-09 21:41:50

so the mothers that choose to shower afterwards also have to shower in full view of everyone - sounds very odd

Danthe4th Mon 19-Oct-09 21:43:43

Its anybody that concerns me, but as its mainly mums that take the children to these classes I go to and generally the workmen or people who just seem to be hanging around are men, but I do agree its open to abuse by all.But thats not the point i'm making, I just think they could keep there costumes on, save any risk from anyone.

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:44:27

I did not read that thread about trolls, not really being here and all. Does this said thread say I am not allowed to raise hmm at this? At what point would I be able to question this? Or am I no longer allowed?

But if I offend - i take it back, and shall say no more on the matter of possible windup.

charitygirl Mon 19-Oct-09 21:44:45

Stop looking at the naked children, you perv.

/sarcasm

MillyR Mon 19-Oct-09 21:45:33

I fail to see how a child abuser is going to be deterred by a swimming costume.

Danthe4th Mon 19-Oct-09 21:46:49

The mums keep their costumes on, there are 3 seperate shower cubicles if they want to use them but they don't, more space outside. I shower my son in the shared one, but he keeps his trunks on.

MamaGoblin Mon 19-Oct-09 21:46:58

But the world is NOT entirely populated by paedophiles! Not even in <gasp> the car park. Do you not let your children run around nekkid at the beach?

YABVU

HeSaysSheSays Mon 19-Oct-09 21:49:08

The fact is that places like swimming pools are targeted by peadophiles, this is an unarguable fact. It is also a fact that peadophiles can be parents, like it or not it is true.

I know of people who have refused to work in swimming pools because they were so freaked out at having to go and fill holes drilled in changing room walls - at child as well as adult height.

However you cannot ever know if it is the moment that you walk in with your dc that a peadophile will also have decided to be there. It is a matter or risk assessment. I personally do not feel comfortable with situations as described above - however I do know IABU about it so I tend to keep it to myself!

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:50:52

In view of this being a legitimate thread, I feel very sad that the OP feels, rather than being able to celebrate the innocence of youth, of a young child being free to be as they are, she needs to ensure her child is covered in cloth at all times in public view. Its such a shame that people are so fearful of the their children's bodies being looked at, that they will stifle the one time we can be completely open with who we are - as children.

Morloth Mon 19-Oct-09 21:51:18

What risk? A perv might see them? So? They are being supervised aren't they? No danger for them? Why should they change their activities because of some sick bastard?

The kiddies run around naked at our local park in the summer, they are in and out of the sandpit and paddling pool. I disapprove because I am a mental person when it comes to sun safety.

YABU. Toddlers running around naked are lovely.

MillyR Mon 19-Oct-09 21:53:24

I completely agree with Pavlov.

I do not believe that a child is at greater risk of being abused or subjected to any kind of harm if they take their costume off in a public shower.

I do believe childhood is diminished by being made to cover up as a result of a parent's fear.

Rebeccash Mon 19-Oct-09 21:54:15

YABVVVVU and completely nuts

PavlovtheForgetfulCat Mon 19-Oct-09 21:54:54

hesaysshesays paedophiles are present wherever we live in society, in the small numbers they exist. They could live on your street, they could teach in your children's schools, look after them in their after school activities, care for them at nursery, swimming pools are much less targeted these days, as paedophiles are aware this is a stereotype and that behaviours are more likely not less likely to be spotted in a swimming pool. They are much more likely to go elsewhere to avoid detection.

piscesmoon Mon 19-Oct-09 21:55:13

I think that we are getting paranoid if toddlers can't run around naked!

redsofas Mon 19-Oct-09 21:55:13

yes i think yabu i would shower my children naked even if people could see. They won't come to any harm as i will be there with them.

Ivykaty44 Mon 19-Oct-09 21:55:57

It makes me want to weep in the corner sad this attitude makes children victims sad

colditz Mon 19-Oct-09 21:56:17

YANBU

The peedos might touch them WITH THEIR EYES

spicybingowings Mon 19-Oct-09 21:58:23

YABU - though I hope our swimming pool never decides to have its showers in full view of the car park...

beaniesinthebucketagain Mon 19-Oct-09 21:58:42

i cant decided whether to say yabu or yanbu!

I personally would never allow my children to be naked in public, im a worrier but then a week after ds 2.5 ran down the drive to daddy in nothing but a swimnappy (in the summer) the man across the road was arrested and his pc seized, makes you clucky i guess!

however im not keen on the 'workmen' comment dp is a builder and he and several friends are the best dads ive ever met. And whats the chance a workman could have a child inside swimming and glanced to see if they could see them!

charitygirl Mon 19-Oct-09 21:59:14

Morloth is right - as long as I'm with them, there is no reason why my children should change their behaviour because there might be a lurking perv.

I was a tad precocious as a child in my picking up of news etc, but I still remember wondering whether my dad would abuse me like the stories I'd heard about, and it even used to make me feel uncomfortable in his presence sometimes. And this was nearly 20 years ago - must be even worse for kids now. Everyone one wants to abuse you!

Ivykaty44 Mon 19-Oct-09 21:59:31
BoobBuffet Mon 19-Oct-09 21:59:48

What exactly is the risk though? That some babies will be seen naked? shock
YABU, in quite a hysterical Daily Hate kind of way imo

chegirlknowswhereyoulive Mon 19-Oct-09 22:01:53

But peados are sexually attracted to children with their clothes on too. How would a small bit of lycra protect them?

There may be a perv present and perhaps he/she may get an extra thrill out of seeing that bit more of a child's body but would it really make that much more difference?

If he was going to follow a mother and child home would the sight of the child in the shower really be the trigger?

Since when did the sight of a naked baby become a sexual thing to a normal adult? When I see a baby with no clothes on I think awwwww not pwhoooor.

BoobBuffet Mon 19-Oct-09 22:01:53

grin colditz

legspinner Mon 19-Oct-09 22:02:38

I agree with most posters, it shouldn't matter.

On a related issue, a couple of years back I did get told off for getting my then preschooler DD changed by the poolside (it's faster, there are chairs there, can keep an eye on my other DCs if they are still in the pool etc) instead of in a changing room. I was quite surprised as we had done this before many times and didn't think anything of it, and so had many other parents with preschoolers. He then told me that there had been a problem with people "lurking" to watch the kids shock and they were now getting parents to change / shower their kids in the changing rooms instead. I was appalled as had never even thought it an issue.

seeker Mon 19-Oct-09 22:04:46

Bizarre. How exactly are they going to come to any harm?

mylovelymonster Mon 19-Oct-09 22:05:57

Sorry - the swimming pool showers are open to view? So everyone showering is in view to general public areas? Are you not supposed to use them for a wash then - just a quick rinse in your cozzie? How odd........is this a new phenomenon I've been blissfully unaware of?
Both swimming pools near us have an open shower area in each of the male & female changing areas, but not viewable by pool/viewing areas.

corriefan Mon 19-Oct-09 22:07:58

YABU I do this, the showers are public but not in view of non-swimmers I don't want my kids to think they need to be ashamed of their bodies.
I was at a park in the summer and they had water stuff out. Ds was fine keeping pants on but my dd (3) wanted to take hers off. I said OK as it was really warm and then one of the people in charge of the equipment told me to put her pants back on.

piscesmoon Mon 19-Oct-09 22:10:14

I haven't got toddlers any more but I wouldn't care who saw them naked in the showers-I can't see that it matters.

HeSaysSheSays Mon 19-Oct-09 22:10:17

Pavlov, do feck off dear, I do not need patronising. For you info Peadophiles live in my fucking family not my street. I am not talking out of my arse I am talking out of having done shit loads of research on it so as I can keep my dc safe....oh yes and the many reports done by The Lucy Faithful Foundation (you know those people whose job it is to know about this stuff and assess risk to children). Oh, and then there was the one we lived next door to - but he was not arrested until after we had moved out so maybe he doesn't count?

I realise this is an "emotive" subject but for none more so than me so don't get all on your high horse in my face.

defineme Mon 19-Oct-09 22:11:00

You know I don't think this is entirely to do with perceived risk of paedophiles.
I think it's also this country in particular's ridiculous attitude to nakedness. In other countries this is not the case at all. My Czech friend thinks we're all mad -it's all communal mixed sex changing rooms with no cubicles over there. They have no prudishness about nakedness.
We think nudity is naughty and rude - I feel it too-it's the way we've all been brought up and it's silly.
I could not bring myself to enter a communal mixed sex shower in an Austrian hostel - no one else could care less about me and my naked body-it was all my own British uptight problem.
I love ity when my dtwins whip off their suits in the swimming pool showers -it means they have none of my hang ups ...yet.

MillyR Mon 19-Oct-09 22:11:35

In some countries you have to shower naked in a communal shower or you are not allowed in the pool. They think we are skanky because we wash with swimsuits on.

No doubt they are plagued by swimming pool abuse cases!

TheMysticMasseuse Mon 19-Oct-09 22:12:34

oh come ON. YABU.

piscesmoon Mon 19-Oct-09 22:16:15

If you were in Iceland, Danthe, you would have to shower naked ,yourself, in communal showers-if you wanted to swim you would have no choice!

YABU

I can't stop mine stripping off at the pool showers- they don't see it as normal to shower with 'clothes' on.

I also prefer it if they take their swim stuff off otherwise when you wrap them up in a towel, the towel gets soaked through from their wet swim wear.

HeSaysSheSays Mon 19-Oct-09 22:18:48

blush

I have just reported my post, sorry Pavlov, my stresses are not you problem and I shouldn't take it out on you. I just found your post patronising to someone who has been through the things I have - which is what I should have said in the first place. Sorry.

Poledra Mon 19-Oct-09 22:19:44

yy thatsnotmymonster, the soggy towel thing gets me too.

DD1 (5.5) still sometimes strips off in the shower after swimming lesson. However, I have noticed some of the older children sniggering at her so am wondering if I should stop her doing it sad

LadyOfTheFlowers Mon 19-Oct-09 22:25:11

Our pool has signs up saying nobody is allowed to take their swimmers off.

crankytwaaaaaahhhhnky Mon 19-Oct-09 22:29:06

Are you being serious? hmm

I think paedophiles would be able to find a better way of seeing naked children than going to the swimming pool disguised as a workman.

FFS you are sexualising children.

I think you'll find most abusers target their own children or relatives. I don't think a crazed nonce driven wild by lust is going to wrench your child out of your arms in the baby pool.

YABU I shower my girls naked at poolside as the chorline upsets their skin as does the bubbles left in their suits. trust me peado's dont need clothes off to be attracted to a child sad but true. I refuse to hide my girls away in the risk of them running inot a weirdo. You do know over 98% of abuse of children is someone already known to them.

lilyjen Mon 19-Oct-09 22:38:00

YABU..that's all I can say as other posters have said the rest-which is cool cos I kinda felt it needed a response but it's soooo annoying that it's even a post!

macdoodle Mon 19-Oct-09 22:44:45

You are barking hmm
I always strip my toddler naked for a shower after swimming - I'd strip myself too but think that everyone would run screaming from my naked body grin

hobbgoblin Mon 19-Oct-09 22:47:09

ffs

i wasted my energy on my mother talking abiut this so think i'll decline to do so on you OP except to say me new made up phrase

pervery is in the eye of the beholder.

Olifin Mon 19-Oct-09 22:48:34

Aye colditz. Peados in Speedos.

Plonker Mon 19-Oct-09 22:55:20

Bonkers attitude

How sad that you worry about this ...

crankytwaaaaaahhhhnky Mon 19-Oct-09 23:04:52

olifin you bugger, I just sprayed water over my keyboard loling!

Olifin Mon 19-Oct-09 23:59:13

onebatmother Tue 20-Oct-09 00:18:48

roffle at paedos in speedos..

i went with my 3 yr old dd for a swim and had forgotten her costume - we were turned back poolside bcs she wasn\t allowed to wear her (sturdy) pants. And it wasn't a hygiene thing (although that woud be rather wtf too) it was specifically that walking female children had to have their non-existent breasts covered.

Shortly afterwards my (just) 7yr old ds was not allowed to swim with me bcs it was a women-only session. And that annoyed me as much, because it sexualized him by ascribing to him adult sexual feelings. <v conflicted about women only sessions anyway>

LadyEvenstarsCauldren Tue 20-Oct-09 00:54:10

Hell where is this pool??? You mean you can get an eyeful of anyone who decides to strip off for a shower??? damn i have seen some of the muscular men swimming in my local pool!!!

Ok on a serious note, YABU I don't think any normal sane person looks at a child a see's someone sexual...they see a child. If we were to worry about every person who could be a potential nonse then we would wrap our dc up in cotton wool (more than we already do) and never venture out, who knows if the guy serving you at sainsburies is a paedo even if he is not in speedos

nappyaddict Tue 20-Oct-09 01:57:56

YABU. There are showers at the poolside at our local leisure centre and I always strip DS to use those.

mummygirl Tue 20-Oct-09 02:57:57

onebatmother are you serious about your d not being able to swim without covering her breasts????

Madness!!!! My DD has never asked to buy the top of a suit, only the bottoms and I can't remember using mine until I had actually started growing reasts and was all self-conscious about it.

Seriously, this kind of thing makes me really angry. To make a little girl feel that they have to cover up their BREASTS (!!!!!!!!??????????!) at such a young age... and thirty years later try to convince her that BFing in public is perfectly acceptable.

Oh, and OP... barking mad

mummygirl Tue 20-Oct-09 02:59:18

"your dd", "growing Breasts", I really have to start proof-reading...

cory Tue 20-Oct-09 07:36:25

HOW ON EARTH WOULD A CHILD BE SAFE FROM A PAEDOPHILE JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE WEARING A SWIMMING COSTUME????

sorry, but stupidity makes me shout
I can't help it

I think you will find that in most cases of paedophiliac abuse/abduction etc, the child was wearing something when it attracted the paedo's attention

paedophiles are not people with no imagination whose sexual urges are inhibited by a small piece of material

This is just one of those ways in which anxious parents reassure themselves that It Couldn't Happen to Me, because I'm performing the right kind of mumbo jumbo/wearing the right amulet/never taking my baby's swimming trunks off.

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 07:43:43

Perhaps we should drape our toddlers in a tent from head to foot in case a paedophile looks at them!

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 20-Oct-09 08:01:38

YABU..kids are innocent, even if someone was staring at them they'd be blissfully unaware....

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 08:14:03

Can I just point out how silly all this "peados don't need them to be naked" thing is? The same can be said of any sexual attraction, adult men do not need adult women to be naked to find them attractive however we still wear swimming costumes to cover up, it may not be much but it is the minimum we have, as a society, deemded to be acceptable. Going on the "cossies make no difference" argument why aren't you all running around the pool without costumes on? And don't give the old cleanliness argument, if you really think a costume does any more than trap a few stray hairs then you are living in a dream world!

Of course you then come into, does titilation encourage offending? Does the fact that someone has spent an hour watching something it wants very much but cannot have encourage them to find a scenario where they can have what they want?

I also feel strongly that the looking doesn't hurt anyone argument is seriously flawed, mostly because I have not yet met a parent who would not be seriously pissed off to find that a peadophile has been watching the school playground at lunchtimes - and those children would all be fully clothed.

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 08:31:28

It is the paedophile's problem-there is utterly no need for anyone to change their behaviour because of a few sick people.

There was a good article in the paper the other day from a muslim woman, she said there was nothing religiously that meant that women needed to wear a burka-it was the fact that men needed to control 'their' women and a curl of hair or a flash of ankle could tempt a man who then couldn't be held responsible for his actions and it was all the woman's fault!

If a paedophile sees a naked toddler under the shower so what?!!

PumpkinsCantDanceTheTango Tue 20-Oct-09 08:35:26

People have hugely inflated worries of stranger danger, its usually someone known to the child - father, uncle, teacher, family friend... So on that basis, its a good idea to blindfold all men who come in to contact with your child - including their fathers. And NEVER let them cuddle your child. If they MUST bath your child then make sure the child wears a wet suit so as no flesh can be seen.

Allets Tue 20-Oct-09 08:35:45

Haven't bothered to read the thread, but I have to say that it's this sort of paranoia which perpetuates the culture of mistrust in communities these days.

If children showering without clothes on, I would suggest that it's you (OP) with the problem, not the mum's who allow it.

Very sad indeed.

Allets Tue 20-Oct-09 08:37:55

Sorry, I meant "If children showering without clothes on makes you uncomfortable, I would suggest that it's you (OP) with the problem, not the mum's who allow it.

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 08:45:28

If we get to the stage where you can't strip off a toddler in a swimming pool shower I really don't think it is a world that I want to live in! I refuse to bring up my DCs in such paranoia. It is the same sort of person who would say to a DC 'stay by mummy or you will be taken'!!

cory Tue 20-Oct-09 08:48:14

HeSays, the minimum of acceptability for grown women (and men) is one that western society has agreed on for a long time.

The fear of naked toddlers otoh is recent and, in northern Europe, pretty well confined to the UK.

Paedophiles have always been around- so why should we suddenly feel the need to protect them from temptation? And how come the paedophile problem is no greater in other parts of northern Europe where children habitually run around naked on the beach?

There are men around in this society who think women have a duty to cover up in burkhas so as not to inflame their sensibility. Do we feel obliged to conform to this minority if we do not share their views? No, we don't- precisely because they are a minority. We protect ourselves in other ways and if they still cannot control themselves we rely on the criminal justice system to deal with them. Or do you think every woman who does not cover herself in this way is irresponsible?

The people who think of children as sexual beings are also a minority. They need to know that.

daisydora Tue 20-Oct-09 08:49:19

YABU!!!

I always take my DD's costume off(she's 3). Never thought anything of it tbh, she's a child!

If I'd have been a mother you'd said something too i would have thought you were a nutter. Agree with what others have said. Despite what certain papers/press would have you belive not everyone we meet in life is a pervert!

Agree with Pavlov

schilke Tue 20-Oct-09 09:05:40

Well yabu about perverts, but this showering after swimming malarky has gone mad at my local swimming pool.

When I was little I'd jump under the shower for a minute and then get changed. After dd1's swim school lesson there must be at least 30 children, probably nearer 40, finishing their lessons. There are 4 showers - I am always amazed at the huge numbers of mothers trying to get shampoo and shower gel onto their kids. We give the showers a very wide berth and do the hair washing/shower gel thing when we get home.

I know you'll all say ooh what business is it of yours blah blah, but it just makes me laugh as they bundle their kids into the scrum of the after swim shower.

katiestar Tue 20-Oct-09 09:10:03

And tbh I wouldn't really care if a paedo was there ogling my toddler as long as I was there so he couldn't touch him/her.
My 7.5 yr old is very slim but has very 'womanly hips' IYWIM .
Last summer i was shopping with her and she was wearing a summer dress that ties at the back she had it quite tight round her waist and I saw a middle aged man quite openly look her up and down and there was no mistaking the expression on his face and TBH I was a bit shocked but i knew she was safe cos I was there.
There is no avoisding paedos they could crop up in any situation ,but you can't let it run your life.

SCARYspicemonster Tue 20-Oct-09 09:30:48

There are only poolside showers at our new pool - I suppose it's to stop everyone using them to wash in. Bit weird but hey ho. I strip my DS naked - would never occur to me not to.

OP YABU

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 09:56:36

Lol @ "they need to know that" yes, because indignant insistance that they are in the wrong is the best tool to arm yourself with hmm

I am quite sure the Peadophile in your town is sat thinking "oh no, don't touch those kids because their mum has put me in my place with her words and actions"...yeah, right.

TH I think that the anti anti-peadophile reaction is as silly as the anti-peadophile one. Yes there are people who over-react to risk (if you look at my first post you will see what I say about myself in that capacity). However as a backlash to that behaviour and the Daily Mail type behaviour thre are all these people saying things like "there is almost no risk, carry on, they are wrong not you" and the likes and refusing to change their behaviour because of the increased risk/perception of risk. However one of the things these people are missing is that they are statistically more likly to end up in trouble than the paronoid ones...

ie if 95% of a street are on high alert and keep their dc covered, won't let them play out alone etc then it is the 5% left who are "carrying on as normal" who are more likly to be targeted - simply because they could be easier to get to. The fact that the daily mail people are behaving the way they are and you are not is increasing the risk of your dc being targeted rather than them.

Katiestar, if you had been responsible and repoted the person leering at your child you could actually have contributed towards catching an offender. Just because he only looked at your child does not mean that was all he would do to others, for all you knew he could have been sat there waiting for an unaccompanied child to take off to the loo - or he could have been going home to look at his stash of child porn. If you are so sure that there was no mistaking the look on his face then you were negligent in not reporting and I hope, for your sake, that his face does not turn up on the front page of your local paper having done something awful. I hope that your life not being ruined was worth the potential cost. angry

prettyfly1 Tue 20-Oct-09 09:56:58

OMG - You are SO hugely unreasonable and tbh if you confronted me with this I would almost certainly tell you that. So what if workmen and dads etc are wandering about as you so nicely put it - they arent paedophiles - they are parents like you going about their business. Four year old kids are not sexual beings and there is no reason not to strip them to get the rancid chlorine out of their skin. How incredibly sad that you have such a warped, over sexual, paranoid view of men and society.

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 09:59:19

Prettyfly, being a parent does not make you not a peaodphile, it is perfectly possible to be both.

FlightAttendant Tue 20-Oct-09 10:01:51

I would think it's a stupid idea for the swimming pool to have publicly visible showering arrangements.

Ridiculous.

OP, I wouldn't worry, it is up to the individual parents concerned whether they regard their children showering naked as a risk.

There are people at ours who shower naked themselves, I wonder if they would do so if the showers were visible from the viewing area. I wouldn't, but then I don't anyway.

prettyfly1 Tue 20-Oct-09 10:04:17

Oh for god sake - hesaysshesays. Yes, if you lock your child up, never letting them experience anything and wrap them in a bubble of cotton wool nothing bad will happen to them. Nothing good will happen either. I CANT believe that and I hope to god I NEVER become so insanely paranoid that I want to lock my children in the house rather then consider the risk of letting them out.

What do you think would have happened if Katie HAD called the police - they would have arrested the man for looking at her daughter? Put him on a register? No... and nor should they or paranoid mentalists like you would have ALL of our men locked away "just in case".

Bloody madness.

stakethroughtheheartofgold Tue 20-Oct-09 10:04:31

agree with flight - what idiot designed the pool?

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 10:05:41

Picesmoon

Your post about the Islamic reasoning behind the burkha is ignorant to say the least. Any chance to slate Islam eh..

What has that got to do with the OP?

OP I think you are being unreasonable because it's up to the parents to decide if they want to shower their own dc in public view. None of your business frankly.

I don't follow the argument that paedos won't see naked dc as being sexual just cute <chegirl I think> They are that way inclined so it follows they will.

I find men attractive therefor will sneak a peak, very much enjoy looking at a naked showering man> *in theory*. wink

what pisses me off about this kind of thing is that it forces the rest of us to look at the world through a paedophiles eyes.

i am NOT a paedophile. my reactionto a naked toddler is 'bless-look at them having fun' or 'what a gorgeous toddler tummy'

i HATE that we are forced to see things that aren't there. they are just babies-a naked means baby means nothing.

yabvu i think.

Bucharest Tue 20-Oct-09 10:09:57

I shan't read the other posts, I shall just c and p my stock reaction to such wittery.

"as we all know, the hooooooooge majority of sexual abuse comes from within the family, or from close friends, not from the poor bloody workman trying to do his job outside the public baths."

etc

ad nauseum

yawn

<hides thread>

Don't forget your industrial quantities of cotton wool when you go out!

squeaver Tue 20-Oct-09 10:10:22

Very well-deserved flaming for the op on this thread.

Madsometimes Tue 20-Oct-09 10:12:56

When my dc were toddlers I often used to strip them in the shower at the pool. I wanted to get the swim nappy off them ASAP - not because it was dirty, just because it prevents them from getting dry and warm.

I cannot do anything about if a pervert gets off on seeing a toddler in a swimming costume or getting changed. However, I can supervise my children and keep them safe.

There are far more risks to a toddler at the swimming baths than perverts. ie. deep water. That is the main reason why young children require extra supervision when at the swimming pool.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 10:13:39

Themild of course it would piss most of us off. I find nekkid toddlers sooo cute but it's the reality of the world we live in.

I probably wouldn't shower my dc in public view because of this <never been in situation so don't know for sure.>

BTW some dirty bastard would find a naked baby a turn on FACT. Horrible though it is.

NormaStanleyFletcher Tue 20-Oct-09 10:14:14

<<whispers>> What are these Peadophiles? Do they have an unhealthy liking for legumes. I know what pAEdophiles are, but not heard of the other ones

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 10:15:59

PF, who said anything about locking children up? Now you are being one of those over-reacters.

WRT Katiestar, well, it depends, you see... if there was really no mistaking the look and she reported it - and so did any other people who had noticed it, eventually the police will build up a profile of someone. If that profile adds up to (eg) seven concerned parents over the course of a weekend, every weekend for the last two months then they may feel it is worth investigating further, however if all of them just shrug their shoulders and say "ooh sicko" and absolve themselves of all responsibility then who is there to help?

You are being quite silly to suggest that I am makeing a case for having everyone locked up and it is exactly what I was saying about the anti-anti backlash. Because I am disagreeing with you you have jumped to the conclusion that I must be some kind of extremist who only allows my dc to open their curtains once a day for an hour, however I am not, my views are not extreme and I actually find those kind of extreme views as ridiculous as anything else.

"TW some dirty bastard would find a naked baby a turn on FACT. Horrible though it is."

so because of that-my babay should never be naked in public?
bullshit.

there are people with all sorts of odd predelictions and if we lived our lives to avoid purely to avoid attracting their attention then we would have to stay locked in the house all the time.

posieparker Tue 20-Oct-09 10:21:40

Wasn't the sick person in Plymouth a woman?

It's terrible that children can't be naked without someone worrying about perverts, that said I wouldn't allow my school aged children to be naked in public but would shower my toddler.

SCARYspicemonster Tue 20-Oct-09 10:23:26

No, HeSaysSheSays, take it from me, your views are extreme.

And if you're going to rant about paedophiles as much as you do, for goodness' sake, learn to spell the word properly!

GetOrfMoiLand Tue 20-Oct-09 10:23:37

By Danthe4th on Mon 19-Oct-09 21:34:01
Its about protecting the children hester, recently a friend was followed for over a mile by a strange man at the same pool and its just got me worried

Eh? Did your friend get followed for a mile. What, swimming in the pool. Are you sure he wasn't just, like, lane swimming?

Plus, lol at the workmen madness. Must tell DP (builder) to watch out for mothers shielding their toddlers from his pervy gaze whilst he is out and about wearing his hi-vis jackets.

OP is a loon.

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 10:26:58

The fact is that this is kind of the same argument as the "women who wear short skirts..." argument, it is fundamentally flawed becuse the society we are in assumes that young children have a basic right to go naked in some situations - the same as women have a basic right to wear a short skirt.

Of course children have the right to be naked and parents should not feel awkward about it, however I do feel that vilifying someone for saying that they are uncomfortable and concerned is not the way to build any bridges or understanding between sides here.

The sad thing about all this is that there seems to be two raging armies with no middle ground allowed. I am actually very middle of the road in my views compared to most people I tend to be cautious but not paronoid and understanding of other peoples view points, however whenever I express my views I get painted into one role or the other by those I am speaking to. Not because I am that way but because people simply cannot seem to see that there is a middle ground here, it is possible to play both sides of the argument and make that work for you.

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 10:29:05

Scary, just out of interest, why should I "take it from you" is there a good reason or do you just like to assume queendom?

As for spelling, really, is that the best you can do?

SCARYspicemonster Tue 20-Oct-09 10:33:32

Have a read of the other posts HSSS. This thread has 122 posts. About 3 agree with your POV. Ergo you are on the outer reaches of what most mums feel about this kind of thing.

And re the spelling - was a serious point underlying that. Do you not remember the paediatrician who was attacked by a baying mob because they didn't understand what the word meant?

Sad times indeed

Feierabend Tue 20-Oct-09 10:33:34

'The fear of naked toddlers otoh is recent and, in northern Europe, pretty well confined to the UK' - I was asked by a lifeguard in a German swimming pool to put clothes on my naked toddler because 'there might be paedophiles around'. This was on a day when the pool was pretty much empty apart from us! And in Germany of all places, where people love to be naked in public.

My dad was taking photos of dd having fun in the pool though so probably looked a bit suspicious.. grin

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 10:40:32

Lol, yeah because getting an a and an e mixed around is the same as that example hmm

Seriously, read my posts, read what I have actually said, forget numbers (which is a silly argument because most people dare not say what I say on here as they get treated like the op and me).

I have not said, keep dc inside, I said, if some people are keeping dc inside that increases the risk for those outside - it is simple maths. I have not said anything extreme at all, I have used examples of the things some people do but no-where have I advocated doing them.

If you press CTRL and F then type in my name you can read through my posts in isolation, read them properly and you will find that they are NOT extreme, they are not advocating a cotton wool mentallity, most of them are simply pointing out the flaws in other peoples arguments.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 20-Oct-09 10:45:19

My friend and I were flashed at aged about 8 by a guy in the swimming pool, we had new goggles and were swimming around underwater and he kept waving something at us.

Actually now I am horrified but at the time we were just curious and had a look.

Anyway we werent showering naked or anything like that, it just happened.

diddl Tue 20-Oct-09 10:45:42

If the showers are in view, are they just supposed to be used before/after swimming, and not for a full shower?

lucygreen Tue 20-Oct-09 10:58:22

probably good hygeine to hose them down when you take the swim nappy etc off, and its no diferent and if anything gets them ready for school showers wich are still oftern communal as are alot of public swimming pools well i know the one in camden is. and as others have said the beach or even at home. there is a massive diference between naked and depraved.

argento Tue 20-Oct-09 11:44:51

Threads like this are so sad - people have lost sight of real safety in all this paedo panic.

Even if a paedo is lurking at the pool and sees a naked 3 year old, so what? Is the child harmed? This crazy fear is what actually damages children.

independiente Tue 20-Oct-09 12:12:39

OP, I think you are being a bit ridiculous. Sorry.

madamearcati Tue 20-Oct-09 13:00:51

HSSS - Report him to the police ? for what ?? As far as I know looking at somebody in any fashion isn't a crime !

Iklboo Tue 20-Oct-09 13:21:29

Aren't more children the victims of sexual abuse from family members than a stranger?

OP - although people have made some good points here about why it shouldn't matter, I think YANBU. I would feel uncomfortable with this too.

Where I live there is a grassed area where toddlers run about naked in the summer (in view of their own houses, and others). It always makes me feel uneasy. Maybe it's to do with one's upbringing? My mum wouldn't let me take my dolls outside without clothes on. she collects teddies and dolls for the Christmas Box appeal & always makes sure they all have pants on, at the least!

So, I can understand how you feel. Having showers open to view by people not also dressed for swimming sounds odd, anyway.

AllFallDown Tue 20-Oct-09 13:40:32

"I know of people who have refused to work in swimming pools because they were so freaked out at having to go and fill holes drilled in changing room walls - at child as well as adult height."

Eh? First, who gets away with smuggling drills into public changing rooms, then using them to drill spyholes in walls? Don't you think the staff might wander over and ask, "Excuse me, why are you drilling in our walls?" Second, how many people do you really know who have refused jobs in swimming pools because of this? I think you've made this up.

And for OP … the vast majority of child abuse, of course, takes place within the family. YABU and paranoid.

LilianGish Tue 20-Oct-09 13:42:51

You'd better not move to Berlin - you'd be considered odd there for thinking it was ok to go in the shower let alone the sauna or steam room with a swimming costume (and that's adults - not just children).

mylovelymonster Tue 20-Oct-09 13:52:59

Am confused by the direction of this thread - I thought the issue was that the showers were in full view of all and sundry? And that this is part of a growing trend to ensure groups of people and potential weirdos aren't protected by a subtle level of privacy that would make everyone comfortable with showering naked/+ cozzie, whatever they preferred? And that this is possibly linked to a trend in leisure centres which is sexualising our children to the extent that a 3yr old may not enter a pool without full coverage of her 'breasts'?

What I got from OP is that she is uncomfortable with showering her child naked in front of everyone - not just other swimmers, but anyone just walking by? Is that not a little bit understandable? I would happily go (and have gone) into a sauna naked in Austria, but I wouldn't if it had been glass sided and situated in a shopping mall.

mylovelymonster Tue 20-Oct-09 13:54:49

mm - have re-read OP, and I think what I got from all this is a bit different to opening point....
As you were.

Gillyan Tue 20-Oct-09 13:58:20

YABU you wouldn't be BU if there were people with cameras etc, if all these kids are with their parents then it's up to hte parents to be worried if needed and you just do what makes you feel comfortable with your own kids. I have to say if I was there with my naked toddler and some man/woman was looking at her in an odd way then it would make me very uncomfortable but I would probably say something to the person.

Lotster Tue 20-Oct-09 14:02:57

I absolutely agree lovely monster.

Tis a bit of a witch hunt on what is a straightforward question. Some people will mind and some won't about this, doesn't make the OP "nuts" as some have said.

Personally (and assuming these see-through showers are the only option, with no private ones nearby) I would be concerned about not just the privacy of toddlers but also being able to take my own cossie off and shower! Some things are private and even if you keep your cossie on, some shyer people don't like eating in public for example, let alone rubbing themselves down grin

argento Tue 20-Oct-09 14:09:33

Lotster - the OP isn't concerned about her own privacy, she's concerned about other people's children being naked in case men see them.

LillianGish - totally agree - and in the summer Berlin parks are full of naked children and no one bats an eyelid. I've even seen children stripping off in the garden of their nursery to play in the paddling pool and perverts could have seen them through the gate! I wonder if Germany has a much higher level of child abuse than the UK? Somehow I doubt it

Lotster Tue 20-Oct-09 14:12:48

Hi Argento. I know, that's why I said "personally".

ImSoNotTelling Tue 20-Oct-09 14:14:13

Who on earth designed this pool?

Is there a pic of it - can we have a look?

I wouldn't really feel comfy rinsing myself down with a load of people in a carpark with their anoraks on wandering past! In fact, I probably wouldn't go swimming if it was on view like that.

On weird showering situation, YANBU
On nude child thing, YABU

Lotster Tue 20-Oct-09 14:16:05

ImSoNotTelling - Quite.

And why should children have any less rights than adults? Potential lurking pervs or no?

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 14:18:45

madamearcati, actually learing at children - if repeated and unmistakable as Katiestar puts it is a problem and the police would take it seriously - certainly seriously enough to check out a persons history on their database for a start. If the person were already convicted then they would be pulled up and told that they were raising suspicion at least if not fully investigated/checked out.

Allfalldown, I have not made it up I could evidence it however that would give too much of me away (and was in the deleted post above). One of the cases was talked about on here some time (several years) ago actually, I think it was someone doing work experience or something.. I can't quite recall the details of that one. As for smuggling in drills... well, yes, people have and do. If you go to an older style pool you will probably be able to see the filled holes in some stalls. It is a problem and a lot of the changes made to the way changing rooms are laid out and the way the stalls are built (materials and so on) are partly because of it.

NadiaWadia Tue 20-Oct-09 14:21:38

Tearinghairout - your mother didn't let you take DOLLS outside to play with no clothes on them?!

I'm sorry but she sounds seriously neurotic!

minuscelsius Tue 20-Oct-09 14:25:59

straight forward question....straightforward answer. You are being very unreasonable. If you said anything to me, I would probably stare at you for a few minutes then burst out laughing and walk away.

anonymous85 Tue 20-Oct-09 14:29:16

They should have more private area for children to shower and dress. I would say something too.

Especially in viewing of the carpark, a pedo could just it in their car for all people know and watch from their parked car.

It any sort of thing whether it's a toilet or shower should be private in my books. Think it was last year or year before, police caught a pedo at a fair that was walking around taking photos of kids, it does happen - more so at pools, and more so at pools if it's so easily viewable from carparks and around the pool. I would def say something it should not be glass.

OP you are in no ways being neurotic.

emma1785 Tue 20-Oct-09 14:29:34

I think you're all being a bit harsh on Danthe4th. Whilst it is unfair to assume every male is a potential sexual threat to children its easy to worry and think the worst. In this case I think it's silly of the swimmingpool to have been designed so open planned, where do adults shower? We do have to take child sex abuse seriously it happens and quite often a lot more than we actually hear about, and in places we wouldn't think of, for example the nursery school case. If I was to take children to the swimming pool in question I would be concerned for their privacy, thats the world we live in today. Better to be safe than sorry.

SCARYspicemonster Tue 20-Oct-09 14:37:37

I wonder if it's precisely because of the risk of paedophiles and other dodgy going ons that they've made the showers public. Like I said, our brand new swimming pool just has a line of showers at the side of the pool. There are none in the changing rooms except for the school communal one.

I wonder if it's the same pool? OMG - I bet it is! It's a bit of a stretch to say you can see it from the carpark - not easily. But certainly from the viewing area.

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 14:42:42

Scary, it is actually likely that this is the justification, it is certainly one reason why there has been a move to communal rather than individual shower stalls (as well as easier cleaning, more showers to each area and so on). I do think open glass showers is a step too far though...mainly because it makes it seem a bit goldfish bowl like - as if they are there on display.

MadameDigestive Tue 20-Oct-09 14:52:46

I have to say I find this a little suspect. If it is a new pool, then I find it hard to beleive that it would have been built with visual access to the showers. Local authorities have to be very strict on inclusion issues, so that means ensuring that women of certain religious beliefs have the right to swim without men being present or being able to see them, that means they have to plan the whole thing to ensure this.

Or maybe its just London that is strict. I don't know.

SCARYspicemonster Tue 20-Oct-09 14:56:27

Honestly MadameDigestive - I am in London in a very ethnically mixed area - this is a brand new pool and the only showers are open at the side of the pool. Basically all you can do is rinse the chlorine off. No washing possible. So I'm wondering if that is the point? Or not being able to shag in the shower?

MadameDigestive Tue 20-Oct-09 15:02:09

ah, scary, are you danthe4th?

hm. Well it can't be Hackney!

I think on the whole yababitu. but understand your concerns. Why not bring it up with the pool management to find out their rationale? And the council? there might be a way in which they could modify the glass if enough people are vexed.

SCARYspicemonster Tue 20-Oct-09 15:07:26

No I'm not! I think she's being hysterical and a bit of a nut about it but it may well be the same pool. I expect I'll be able to spot her - she'll be the one wrapping her children in full length towels as soon as they get out of the pool and hurrying them away

(only teasing OP)

The pool I'm thinking of is in Queens Park

MadameDigestive Tue 20-Oct-09 15:10:42

oh its all so confusing!

Yes I also think its a bit ott. but I am surprised that there are no private showers. which is why I thought it a bit suspect. Still do actually..dum de dum...

MadameDigestive Tue 20-Oct-09 15:11:59

I think I need to namechange back myself. Much as I am enjoying being a biscuit, I miss my name!

Agree with Lovelymonster - understandable to be uncomfortable with showering in front of (fully dressed) strangers.

NadiaWadia, no, she's not neurotic, just a little unusual. She was brought up in a different era, I suppose (born in 1921). It comes from a sort of 'don't put it on display' attitude, that nakedness should be private. It seemed normal for me as a child, but now I just see making teddies wear pants as quaint.

As a grown-up I rebelled against it, and used to not worry about being naked in front of my dch eg after a bath, but now that they are teenagers and I'm a bit saggy, I do cover up!

SCARYspicemonster Tue 20-Oct-09 15:29:32

Well if it is my pool, the showers are along a side wall and the viewing window is at one end. So it's not like people are right up close viewing you. And the carpark is on the other side of the pool. And not exactly overlooking. In fact I don't think you can see through the windows.

mrsDigestive - who did you used to be?? I am rubbish at spotting people.

Anyway - aren't we supposed to be talking about nekkid toddlers?

me!

argento Tue 20-Oct-09 15:38:19

It's not about adults having more rights than children - it's children being lucky enough to be comfortable with their bodies. Teaching them that being naked is wrong because paedos might look at them is doing them no favours.

Lotster Tue 20-Oct-09 15:56:45

At the end of the day OP, you can see from this debate lots of people have very different opinions! And if other people choose to strip their kids off it's not for others to judge as we are all different?

Equally, I think it would be fair to say you have every right not to strip your own toddler off for public showers, and even to suggest to the baths they make a private one to be made available to those wanting privacy for myriad (legal!) reasons.

Like many AIBU threads this isn't a black and white right/wrong. We are all different. My son goes streaking about the open air pool when I'm drying him off and it doesn't concern me.

crankytwaaaaaahhhhnky Tue 20-Oct-09 16:57:39

"Eh? Did your friend get followed for a mile. What, swimming in the pool. Are you sure he wasn't just, like, lane swimming?"

gerrofmoiland only on MN could I find myself belly-loling whilst reading a heated debate about paedophillia etc!

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 17:04:12

Picesmoon

Your post about the Islamic reasoning behind the burkha is ignorant to say the least. Any chance to slate Islam eh..

I made it quite clear that I was quoting a muslim woman. She was interviewed in the Times at the weekend.I happened to agree with her-I know muslim women that go about their normal jobs without even a hijab.

RubysReturn Tue 20-Oct-09 17:26:31

I don't think the OP is being unreasonable tbh.

Our local pool has three showers in the open area which can be seen from reception, the cafe, the spectating area.

Most people just dive under to rinse off chlorine. Some make more of it with shampoo conditioner etc.

Of course it should be fine for a toddler to be stripped and showered quickly - I do this with my dd, with her towel poncho thing ready to cover her up.

However, public swimming pools are an easy place for someone who does want to look at naked children. FGS pre-internet, the mothercare catalogue was used in this way I believe.

People have found weirdos leaning over the top of cubicles (ours are mixed changing, which is handy for families) takign photos fgs.

Whilst you cannot let it rule your life, it seems unwise to underestimate the resourcefulness of perverts.

desertgirl Tue 20-Oct-09 17:41:26

Hesaysshesays, are you serious about going to the police because of the way someone looks? bearing in mind that unless a policeman is standing right there, you are reporting something that didn't harm anyone, on the basis of description only (assuming this is not a man you know) - I could be wrong; have been out of the UK for a while, but I would expect to be laughed at if I went to the police to report such a thing (and that is even with living in a Muslim country where you can be arrested for making obscene gestures etc).

Assuming the police do manage to figure out who you are complaining about, am also slightly perturbed at the suggestion that the police keep records of such comments - now obviously you are not going to know what information the police gather or store on you in the course of their prevention or detection of crime, but the idea that they would be keeping records of complaints about someone which indicate no crime, without the person concerned being told of the issue, is a little disturbing. There are, after all, men around who seem to look permanently lecherous; what sort of record would they be building up and who would then have access to that record?

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 17:48:08

If perverts want to hang around swimming pools they are very sad people-I don't see why the rest of us need to amend our behaviour.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 18:11:47

piscesmoon - I know you quoted a muslim person. I know many muslim women who don't wear hijab either. You implied that hijab is a cultural rather than religious concept.

I thought it was totally irrelevant as well as inaccurate.

But I'm glad you agree with her hmm

HeSaysSheSays Tue 20-Oct-09 18:56:24

desertgirl, Katiestar was certain their was no mistaking his look - that sounds pretty sure to me. She was in a shopping centre so there would be CCTV.

If one parent rings and says "some bloke in jeans did..." then, no, nothing will happen. If 5 parents ring and say "some bloke..." then they may decide to look at the CCTV. If they see anything they don't like they will try to see if the face matches any known offenders in the area.

If this happens more than once then they may try to identify the person regardless of previous offenders.

Yes police keep notes, an enhanced CRB check will say things like "suspected of gang invlovment" "repeatedly accused of inappropriate conduct around children, nothing proven" They are the police notes that are the point of an enhanced CRB sheck.

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 19:05:36

I did think it was relevant, roneef,-the woman was saying that the men had no control over their sexual desires and therefore women had to be covered to save the men from their base natures! Those who want to cover toddlers are saying that paedophiles have no control and therefore they can't be allowed to see a naked DC.
I think that everyone is responsible for themselves, they can only control themselves and there is no need to change behaviour. It is like saying that a woman deserves to be raped if she wears a short skirt! Paedophiles are, unfortunately, a fact of life. There is no reason why the majority should have to change. Your toddler is safe with you.

Homebird8 Tue 20-Oct-09 19:14:11

It must have been frightening for your friend to be followed but I'm not sure I follow what this has got to do with showering toddlers. If there was inappropriate adult behaviour then this is a manager issue (or a police one), if not then this is normal parenting and not something which should worry anyone.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 19:26:58

Picesmoon

*There was a good article in the paper the other day from a muslim woman, she said there was nothing religiously that meant that women needed to wear a burka-it was the fact that men needed to control 'their' women and a curl of hair or a flash of ankle could tempt a man who then couldn't be held responsible for his actions and it was all the woman's fault!*

You compared this twatty 'theory' to not exposing a toddler in public.

Totally irrelevant but I appreciate your input about a religion you know nothing about. You read it in the times so it must be true hmm

desertgirl Tue 20-Oct-09 19:36:01

HSSS, it is still a facial expression. It doesn't hurt anyone. Why the flip should that end up on some poor chap's police record? it just feels uncomfortably like the thought police. 5 parents reporting that someone did something, fine; 5 parents reporting that someone 'looked' something - really?

I'm not denying that looks can be unnerving; have felt uncomfortable enough to take avoiding action in my time, but they just aren't criminal.

There is a big difference to me between even 'repeatedly accused of inappropriate conduct, nothing proven' and 'repeatedly accused of looking at someone wrongly' (ok, not quite phrased like that, just trying to make the point). Inappropriate conduct or involvement in a gang which itself carries out criminal offences are a step up from a pervy look, surely?

and how do they know 5 parents rang in if they don't keep notes of the first four??

Are you in the police, btw?

also - if you google holes drilled in swimming pool changing rooms, the first hit is on this thread - and there really isn't anything suggesting that it has been as common as you suggest. I certainly believe that it may have happened, but are you really sure it has ever been common??

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 19:36:05

I don't think it was irrelevant- every person, sane-pervert-normal or whatever is responsible for themselves. People male, female, adult child are not responsible for leading them astray!
I am only quoting one woman's opinion, since she lived the life and was forced to cover up I think she was entitled to her opinion. She didn't like it and is now divorced. I am not making any statement about religion or discussing religion.I am talking about one woman's view-whether right or wrong-she is entitled to it, and she is entitled to voice it and I am entitled to say that I think it is relevant-I accept that you don't think it relevant roneef. It was in the Times so it was true in that it was that particular woman's view-it was in no way making a statement about whether it was a general view. Unfortunately I can't find it to make a link.
I think it very relevant because if I had a toddler I wouldn't want a paedophile looking at them but I am not going to keep them clothed because some sad pervert might be watching.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 19:41:40

I agree with your opinions on the whole but still think it's offensive to use islamic practices in a derisory way<and incorrectly> to prove your points.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 19:46:39

You are a bit cheeky to deny talking about religion.

You clearly said the lady said Hijaab was not an Islamic religious requirement and you agreed with her.

desertgirl Tue 20-Oct-09 19:48:26

I know a young mum with two kids (a DD and a DS, maybe 5 and 3) who has them wear knickers while playing in the bath together (she is not British, btw). She doesn't want to get into the questions of who has what bits at this age. I am comfortable wandering around in front of my kids without clothes on (can be very useful having a small shower attendant) - others (usually without cellulite and varicose veins!!) are happy showing practically all they have on a public beach - we all have different boundaries; am not really sure that the potential for a third party's perverted looks (not actions) is enough to justify trying to change someone's boundaries, is it?

piscesmoon Tue 20-Oct-09 19:49:46

I was using one woman's opinion. If you forget religion (which I didn't bring into it)I am saying that a woman's clothing shouldn't be used to keep men from temptation. The man should have self control. Forget that one, if it is causing so much trouble,have instead that a woman (an athiest, if you like) should be able to go out at night in a short skirt and not be responsible for the thoughts of a man-he is the one who needs self control. A toddler in a pool isn't responsible for anyone else.

Apart from the perceived rights and wrongs of women covering up for religious reasons (and it is not restricted to those of the muslim faith) the fact is that many women practice their religion according to these restrictions. therefore they should be catered to.

IMO it is more important for women to have access to leisure and health facilities than argue about the rights and wrongs of women covering up for religion.

So lets not go looking for fights where there are none, eh Roneef?

seaglass Tue 20-Oct-09 19:59:33

It's posts like this that make me think this country is totally fucked up.
It's a wonder all men aren't locked up just in case they might be a paedophile angry
YABVU! Get a grip.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 20:01:58

Agree with you and as I already said to the OP - none of her business.

There are perverts in this world unfortunately. If anyone wants to cover up their dc that's acceptable imo.

I probably wouldn't though and if I caught anyone leering etc they would get a real mouthful.

PeedOffWithNits Tue 20-Oct-09 20:03:14

i dont agree with the OP at all BUT at our local pool you are NOT ALLOWED to strip toddlers for their showers. you are also allowed ONLY to use water - no shampoo, soap, conditoner AT ALL

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 20:07:09

Okaay madame...I'm not looking for a fight. I made my views known.

But you go girl..

*IMO it is more important for women to have access to leisure and health facilities than argue about the rights and wrongs of women covering up for religion.*

You should get a mn award for most pc,bollocksy statement. Once you work out what you are trying to say - give me a shout.

alfiesmadmother Tue 20-Oct-09 20:08:34

AM quite shocked that people think it's wrong to shower TODDLERS naked. And I quite happily let my 2 year old run around in the garden/on the beach naked, supervised obviously. It never crossed my mind that this could be wrong. FGS they are toddlers. What next?

MillyR Tue 20-Oct-09 20:12:27

This all seems straightforward to me.

There are women only sessions to cater for women who, for religious or other reasons, don't wish to swim in mixed sessions.

In most pools, children can shower naked.

In most pools, children can shower in swimwear.

None of this should cause any reason for anyone to complain. The OP is mad to want to say something about it to the management.

Why any of this is an issue I don't know. What madame said was quite clear, I thought. Not sure why that is an issue either.

dittany Tue 20-Oct-09 20:14:55

Who was the bright spark who decided to design the showers as open plan? That would be my question.

You could talk to the swimming pool management and suggest they do something to make the glass opaque, so everybody, toddlers included can get some privacy. Maybe if you got a group together it might work. The paeodphilia angle is the wrong one because you'd be marked as hysterical but the privacy one would probably work. I wouldn't want to use showers that were open plan like that.

You see Roneef, that kind of aggression is just pointless. I live in an area surrounded by women who by virtue of their culture (and I do not specify it) are particularly vulnerable to being excluded from public services. So anything that promotes their independence is good as far as I am concerned.

If wanting women who are oppressed in some ways to have equal opportunities is rabidly pc, well, yeah!

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 20:23:50

Madame, you pissed me off because you waded in and accused me of 'looking for a fight'.

You probably didn't even read my posts.

I am from 'that culture' and find you to be a bit patronising.

nooka Tue 20-Oct-09 20:29:09

Roneef, Piscesmoon original post was about the use of the burka, not the hijab, and there is a lot of debate within the Muslim world about whether covering the face is cultural or a religious requirement. For example in Canada the Muslim Canadian Congress is campaigning for the niqab and burka to be made illegal. Their spokesperson said the practice of wearing the burka and niqab is more rooted in Middle Eastern culture than in religious teachings. She added that there is nothing in the Qur'an that stipulates women must cover their faces. Likewise in Egypt the Sheikh Mohammad Sayyed Tantawi, the Grand Imam of al-Azhar has issued a ban on women wearing the burka, or face veil, at any schools affiliated to al-Azhar, the world’s top Sunni Islam institution.

Not that these actions are uncontested mind, but certainly debated.

I think the wider point about whether as a society we should be swayed by the idea that because a small group of people have a problem (whether prudish or sexual) with nakedness (whether or face, or ankle or body) everyone else should make changes - and even take responsibility for what are essentially other people's problems is a very valid one.

As for the OP, she should calm down. It's not her responsibility to be checking the scene for "someone looking". The most likely people to be looking are relatives after all, and if they are also abusers than what happens in the swimming pool is going to be fairly irrelevant. If she thinks there is a design problem, then she should take that up with management. As to why? The costume is taken off because it's no longer needed, it is wet and cold and chloriny, and showering with the costumer on is fairly pointless.

Roneef, I read all your posts, and the context of this thread I found them both aggressive and illogical.

As I have not specified which culture I am referring to, I would suggest you stop making this all about you and your splatter gun contempt for those who do not agree with you.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 20:41:53

I suspect many non muslims don't have a clue about hijab, niqa, burka and jilbab differences.

I think it soo ironic that in trying to protect women from muslim males oppression via the burka shaikh tantawi seeks to ban it.

this man is depised by the majority of muslims I have met in this country and regarded as a sellout.

No one has a right to tell another human being how to dress including this prize nobhead.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 20:44:34

ok madame. When was I aggressive?

Just busy running back and forth to pc. I am blunt by nature though smile

well, one example is that you assumed I was talking about muslims, I wasn't.

Just try not to get personal, disagree with the idea, not the person, it makes it more productive all round.

roneef Tue 20-Oct-09 20:54:02

No Picesmoon/nooka were talking about muslims. You were being all mysterious wink

DailyMailNameChanger Tue 20-Oct-09 20:56:48

Only on MN could a ruck on open plan showers become a ruck on religion in under 200 posts hmm grin

LaDiDaDi Tue 20-Oct-09 21:02:45

The showers at my localpool are a bit like this, open to the poolside which is in turn open to the viewing area/cafe and only tinted glass between the pool and the shopping area outside.

I don't strip dd at the showers, it would take longer, but I wouldn't think that anyone who did it was odd or not protecting their child hmm.

I was simply saying that there other cultures and religions that prohibit women being seen by men while wearing little clothing (according to their standards)

If you need to know, I was referring to an area where there are many very orthodox Jews. I am happy that there are seperate sessions for women, and that local planners have taken into account the whole swimming experience in being respectful of their culture.

Not because I give two hoots (or not) about the validity of those cultural rules, but simply because in a pragmatic way, I think all our services should be available to all sectors of society.

nooka Tue 20-Oct-09 22:15:31

Sadly roneef I think you are absolutely right about people not appreciating the differences in the different headdress/clothing types. I'm not sure that a ban is a sensible way forwards either. But just wanted to raise the fact that there is debate. Oh, and totally agree with Madame, lots of religions have dress codes of one sort or another. Where I live now I'm more likely to see a plain dressing Mennonite than any other distinctive religious group, but I don't think I've ever seen this group in the UK.

nicm Tue 20-Oct-09 22:35:43

i think it's really sad. was in europe in the summer with ds and thought it was good to see a small child running round the park naked. no one even batted an eyelid.

onebatmother Wed 21-Oct-09 11:59:30

I think your point about the wider question being the respective rights of the offended vs the rest of us is a very good one nooka.

ginormoboobs Wed 21-Oct-09 17:52:22

I shower both of mine naked at the pool. How else would I wash all of the chlorine off them.
If some dirty paedo gets a kick out of seeing my children naked then so be it.
It will not harm them.
A crazed paedophile will not run over and snatch them from the shower.
I worked in a swimming pool with showers like this. You walked out of the pool and they were open. You could have a shower and look out of the huge window at the same time. There was a lovely view of the river.
We never had paedos lurking outside to try and sneak a glimpse of a naked child.
We did once spot a man with an obvious erection. He was watching 2 pre teen girls.
We knew who he was and called the police as he was following them around.
Lifeguards watch out for weirdos. They can spot someone acting suspiscously and will ask them to leave.

Danthe4th Wed 21-Oct-09 18:09:01

There are some really interesting comments and I do agree with most, I can see from all points of view and different situations obviously create different ideas.
It was the fact my friend was followed from the swimming pool car park that made me think, and yes I shouldn't have said workmen etc as thats an unfair comment as they are quite innocently carrying out their job.
I still say though that these showers should not be used for stripping off young children in full view of anyone when there are a few private cubicles. Yes I agree its sad to think that way but I can't help the way I feel.
I have since found out that a man has been reported locally for also hanging around outside schools in the same area and the car was the same as the one that followed my friend, hopefully a coincidence but has put her off going to swimming lessons on her own with her children.
I may sound barking mad but i'm not its just my point of view and we are all entitled to that thank goodness.

mumeeee Thu 22-Oct-09 11:46:07

YABU, They are todlers.

upsylazy Thu 22-Oct-09 20:45:11

I find all this really sad. I recently took DS2 (17 months) to a council playgroup that 2 older DCs went to quite a few years ago.DS2 was playing really nicely with this little girl and they kept hugging and kissing each other. I asked this girl's mum if it was Ok if I took a photo of them together which she said was fine.I took a couple of pics on my mobile when this playworker came running towards me screaming "NOOOOO!! GIVE ME THE PHONE, GIVE ME THE PHONE!!!!" She then launched into this stuff about para x clause y of the Children Act and taking photos in public settings. I showed her the pics and said they were of my own child and another whose mum had given permission. She said that, if I didn't delete them, she would call the Police. I live in quite a deprived area of inner London and am sure the Police have better things to do than investigating complaints about people taking photos of their own kids. I was tempted to stand my ground and let her call the cops and see what they'd do but I then thought that it would have to be logged and my name would be against a complaint of child abuse so I just left.I work in mental health and I reckon about 25% of people I see have been sexually abused but virtually always by a family member or friend of the family. I think we really need to get things back in proportion here - we all know there are some horrible people out there and we want to protect our kids but there seems to be a gradual trend towards total paranoia. Children have a very short time to run around naked before they become self conscious, let's not make that time even shorter. The next thing will be burkhas for babies.

YouSaidWHAT Thu 22-Oct-09 21:50:55

YABU how utterly ridiculous

ElenorRigby Sat 24-Oct-09 22:30:19

YABU get a grip!

PictureThis Sat 24-Oct-09 22:46:03

YABU. I was told by a member of staff in my local pool that I could not take my DD's swim nappy off in the shower because of paedophiles. WTF!! My child needed to have chlorine washed off her skin, she was 15 months old at the time - a baby. My friend and I were absolutely astonished. I ignored him anyway and continued washing my naked baby in the shower shock. I abhor this completely paranoid society - get a bit of perspective for heaven's sake.

rachel234 Sun 25-Oct-09 21:02:05

YABU - even my 5 and 6 year olds take their swimming costumes off in the communal shower before they get their towels and dry off. And I always shower naked in the ladies (communal) changing rooms, which admittedly are not in view of any men.

Fibilou Mon 26-Oct-09 15:25:14

"Shortly afterwards my (just) 7yr old ds was not allowed to swim with me bcs it was a women-only session. And that annoyed me as much, because it sexualized him by ascribing to him adult sexual feelings. <v conflicted about women only sessions anyway> "

Do they grill the women on their sexuality then, just in case ? I find this all so irritating. What woman in the world is going to feel uncomfortable with a 7 year old boy in the pool ?

Fibilou Mon 26-Oct-09 15:53:22

"She then launched into this stuff about para x clause y of the Children Act and taking photos in public settings."

Upsylazy, I think that she has completely misinterpreted the Children Act as there is no legislation preventing anybody taking photos of children in public or private settings. It's up to individual establishments to interpret the spirit of the law how they like.
If it was illegal to take photos of children in public places then school photographs in the paper and all other sorts of things would be illegal - which they aren't.

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