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in asking our upstairs neighbour to move their pram?

(345 Posts)
KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:19:46

Our upstairs neighbours share a communal hall way with us and have been using it to store their pram since their son was born. We were quite sympathetic for the first six months or so. After that we politely mentioned it was a problem for us as it was blocking the hallway but they said they had nowhere else to store it.

We let it rest but for the last few months it's been getting slightly wearing as he is now 20 months old and there is no sign of them moving on to a fold up model. We raised it couple of times over the summer, basically asking how much longer they would need it and they were non-committal.

So we asked them if they would mind us storing our bikes there occasionally. They said they wouldn't object and so on Thursday night my husband moved the bikes up in anticipation of going for a bike ride or two over the weekend.

We made sure they could still get their pram in and out but they still went completely berserk. She knocked on the door to ask me to move them and lost it when I said "no - we had agreed this up front". Her husband has also got quite angry and stated that they should have extra rights over the hallway than us.

I can't believe the way they are acting (stomping round upstairs, shouting at me and my husband when we've seen them, even though the bikes are now back in our flat) but not having children I can't judge whether it is really is an ordeal to either get a fold up pram, as we have asked, or alternatively build a shed and store their pram in the front yard. I'm sure all my nephew and nieces (six of them) were using fold up buggies by this age but they insist that they are not suitable for a 20 month old. Am I being really unreasonable? When should they be able to move on to a fold up model? And what does everyone else do when their kids get to this kind of age?

nickytwotimes Sun 27-Sep-09 16:23:15

Yanbu.
Ds was in a fold up most of the time by a year.
They are being arses.

tutu100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:24:54

I don't think you can really expect them to get a folding stroller if they don't want to, but I don't think they can expect to leave a large pram in a communal living space.

Do you rent or own your home. What are the terms with regards to the communal spaces. When I lived in a flat you couldn't leave anything in the communal areas or you would get fined.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:27:58

It's a converted house with two flats, us and them. We both own. Under the terms of the lease the communal area shouldn't be blocked. We're not saying they have to get rid of it but that they can't store it in the hall anymore. Either in their own flat or outside in a shed are both fine with us.

OrmIrian Sun 27-Sep-09 16:30:51

YANBU

I suspect it's more a question of not having anywhere to put it rather than him still needing it. However they are being quite unfair IMO.

PurpleEglu Sun 27-Sep-09 16:35:01

YANBU. If they have nowhere to store it they should never have bought such a large pram.

MovingOutOfBlighty Sun 27-Sep-09 16:39:19

Have they got a car outside? I had this happen and finally the downstairs people asked me to move my pram so i put it in my car to store it. Yes, a bit more of a bother but I certainly didn't go all 'think of the baaaaaby' about it.
I could see it was slightly irritating being there and that there had to be a time limit on goodwill from neighbours. 18 months is a good limit.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:41:40

It's way to big to fit in the car so sadly that's not an option. Pity they can't be as considerate as you obviously were.

mummygirl Sun 27-Sep-09 16:45:20

I have to ask WHAT MAKE is this monster of a pram???

thesecondcoming Sun 27-Sep-09 16:48:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:49:50

Haven't a clue! Like I say, not a Mummy so not something I know anything about. It says Brio on it, but I don't even know whether that's a make or not!

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:52:31

thesecondcoming, Completely understand that it's not going to be around for ever, but they just won't give any idea of when they will get rid of it. As I say, don't really care what pram they have but don't want it stored in the hall anymore. I'd be a bit more relaxed if they let us use it to store our things, after all fair's fair, but they won't. Seems to be one rule for them and another for us.

franklymydear Sun 27-Sep-09 16:52:53

when you say pram do you mean like a box on wheels so it doesn't fold down?

franklymydear Sun 27-Sep-09 16:53:34

and the baby lies flat in it like the old fashioned silver crosses

what was their issue with the bikes as they'd already said ok

OrmIrian Sun 27-Sep-09 16:54:22

"stated that they should have extra rights over the hallway than us. "

WHy do they think this?

StayFrosty Sun 27-Sep-09 16:55:44

yanbu at all. they sound like a nightmare. My mum and dad have a lockable plastic outdoor storage bunker type thing that they keep spare buggies and garden toys in at their house. They don't take much room up, and don't cost much, your neighbours should get one of those, or a folding buggy, or rearrange a room inside the flat and take it up there with them.

We lived in a first floor flat with no lift till dd was 2, it was a pita bumping the buggy up and down a flight of stairs every day, but hey that's life, and we would never have dreamed of leaving it in a communal area (would have got nicked where we lived anyway grin).

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:56:08

franklymydear, Yes something that doesn't fold down but the seat moves around so it can face both ways. They didn't like the bikes as they were taking up space and blocking the hall, but as we keep saying, as far we're concerned, the pram is blocking the hall and, unlike our bikes which we had only intended to have out for the weekend, seems to be a permanent fixture.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 16:58:31

OrmIrian, just because they have the baby.

franklymydear Sun 27-Sep-09 16:59:34

they're inconsiderate twats

StayFrosty Sun 27-Sep-09 17:00:02

The world does not stop and start at their convenience just because they had unprotected sex. They sound like loons.

thesecondcoming Sun 27-Sep-09 17:00:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OrmIrian Sun 27-Sep-09 17:02:35

No, the OP is downstairs. If that was your attitude second, I'd be unwilling to move my bikes either hmm

susiey Sun 27-Sep-09 17:02:51

yanbu

I have lived in flats the whole time I've had kids.I deliberastly bought a small buggy from birth that could be folded down so that I wouldn't block the communal hallways with a massive pram. They should either store it folded in your hallway or take it upstairs.

In one flat I lived in you were not allowed to store things in the hallway due to fire restrictions.

stick to your guns!

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 17:07:27

If you can keep your bikes inside your flat, they should be able to keep the pram inside.

But I can sort of see their perspective.
If you put your bikes and this blocked the hallway, then you were in the wrong. The pram on its own does not block the hallway. But the bikes AND the pram do.

It could equally be YOU who built a shed and stored your bikes outside.

I would not store my childs pram outdoors. It would be damp and cold for the child to sit in.

And I would NOT be happy if my neighbours decided to move their bikes in, AND block the hallway, just to prove a point about their pram.

What kind of pram they have is non of your concern, and frankly I find it perplexing that you are so bothered about that you chose to register on a parenting forum to vent your gripe.

When you live in a space compromised environment it's foolish to buy a massive monsto-pram.

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 17:13:50

What I find a bit odd is that you say you have been asking them several times over the summer when they are getting rid of the pram as it blocks the hallway.

How come you can add two bikes, and the hallway is still not blocked?

I suspect you are just a little bit too preoccupied with this family and their pram.

mazzystartled Sun 27-Sep-09 17:15:19

I think it was considerate of you to let them store it there whilst their child was small. It's hard work lugging a baby and a pram up the stairs. Now the cild can presumably walk or climb up themselves it's a bit different.

Is it really an inconvenience to you now though? Does it actually block the hallway or is there space? Would you be bothered if they hadn't been so (unreasonably)arsey about the bikes?

Why don't the two households go halves on a garen store for their pram and your bikes?

MovingOutOfBlighty Sun 27-Sep-09 17:17:52

I don't think they are griping, I think that they are genuinely asking if they are being unreasonable before persuing it further.

Personally, I don't see why they haven't downsized to a Mcclaren or Quinny Zapp by now. There is no way I would have kept my monster pram in the hall once I knew that the others were getting annoyed. And the type of pram is of their concern as it is clogging up the hall!

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 17:20:34

How can it really clog up the hall, if they could add their two bikes to the hall, and it still wasnt blocked?

Maybe they cant afford a new pram? Maybe they want to keep it for baby nr 2?

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 17:22:36

in a communal hall,they should be reasonable and that includes not blacking space

when purchasing they should have considered storage etc

gingerkirsty Sun 27-Sep-09 17:23:26

For god's sake, we live in a flat and have just bought a travel system for our impending new arrival which folds up and which I can carry up to our 2nd floor flat so that I don't have to leave it in a communal area! This will mean me having to either leave part of it in the boot or carry baby and chassis up seperately, but that is what I will have to do in order not to clutter up the hall unfairly. It is unbelievable how inconsiderate people are!

Lucky13 Sun 27-Sep-09 17:31:05

YANBU. If their pram is even partially blocking the hall it is unfair. Does your lease state whether you can use the hall for storage and if so whether the use is 50/50? Do you have to pass the pram when leaving your flat?

QuintessentialShadow i think you have the wrong end of the stick.

Neither person should be blocking the hallway and the pram does partially block it - which probably is against fire regs.

If the op can keep bikes in their flat then the neighbours must have room for the pram. If not then perhaps they should have bought one more suited to their dwelling.

The op is not storing bikes in the hall permanently, they just agreed in advance to have them there over one weekend. Nothing to do with proving a point.

Maybe the op registered here because, as the title says 'am i being unreasonable?' - well as she isn't a mother, maybe she wanted to get opinions from mothers?

ReneRusso Sun 27-Sep-09 17:40:56

Babies can use a collapsible type buggy from about 6 months, and certainly most will do so by 20 months. YANBU, but not sure what your next move is as it sounds like all out war. Might be better to keep the peace and try and ignore it.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight Sun 27-Sep-09 17:44:04

Does it really block the hall? Can you walk past without any bother? Are you on the ground or first floor?
IMO if you are on the ground floor and you can still walk past easily then you should let it go. It's tricky to get a pram upstairs and yes, of course they could have got a folding pram but they didn't, and prams are expensive.
However, if you are on the first floor then you could certainly argue the point that they should take the pram into the flat and you should be able to keep your bikes in the hall way.
Finally, they ABU to have given you a hard time about the bikes. The hallway is communal and you had warned them.

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 17:48:43

I don't think you were BU to not want the pram there, but the bike thing, it feels a little bit tit for tat. I mean, where have your bikes been all this time that they can't be there anymore? Or have you just bought them?

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 17:50:22

QuintessentialShadow, Absolutely agree, what type of pram they have is none of our concern. However, the hall is as much ours as theirs and why should they get exclusive use of it. We're happy to keep the place clear and have our bikes in our flat (and have always done so to date) but can't see why this shouldn't work both ways and they store their pram in their flat to. As to why come to a parenting forum to "vent my gripe" I wasn't venting, simply asking if I had missed something as non-parent and trying to get another perspective.

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 17:52:40

The fold up buggy thing, as far as I know none of the cheap lightweight strollers can be set so that the child faces the parent (I'm not 100% on this though).

So they might be wanting to hang onto their old pram because that feature is important to them. Or maybe they kind afford a lightweight buggy so they're sticknig to the bitter end to the pram they've bought. Maybe someone bought it for them, and they don't feel they can replace it or get rid of it?

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 17:54:42

They probably also don't understand why it wasn't a problem for the first 6 months and then suddenly was for the remaining 14 months.

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 17:57:26

So, KG100, you think that just because you can roll your bikes into your groundfloor flat, they shall carry their pram up a flight of stairs? Together with their child, and possible shopping?

I realize I go against the grain, but I disagree with all the others. grin

I am actually surprised that the weekend use of bicycles is regarded equal to daily use of pram.

kitbit Sun 27-Sep-09 17:58:31

Does it obstruct the hall in a fire-regulations breaching kind of way? It would be hard to go down that route and maintain neighbourly relations by the sound of it, but it is a consideration. I am a bit of a worrywart about fire exits, so maybe it's worth checking.

jellybeans Sun 27-Sep-09 17:59:04

YABU to assume they would get a fold up buggy, I used my big bulky buggy for 2 years or so. YANBU to be annoyed and maybe they could store their pram in their flat sometimes but that's the thing with neighbours, there is usually something annoying that you have to put up with!! It could be far worse!!

diddl Germany Sun 27-Sep-09 18:00:06

Unless it´s a Silver Cross "coach" type that doesn´t fold at all, it should be possible to fold it and store it on it´s side if nothing else.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:00:28

GirlsAreLoud, to be honest we've had an issue right from the start because it honestly is in our way, especially if we are carrying bags in and out (even just shopping and my husband plays a lot of sport so gym stuff and golf clubs). We didn't make a fuss to begin with as we were trying to be considerate of the fact that they had a baby, not sure why that should be held against us though.

RumourOfAHurricane Sun 27-Sep-09 18:03:19

Message withdrawn

Bathsheba Belgium Sun 27-Sep-09 18:03:36

My children have never moved into a lightweight stroller pram....I LIKE bigger, chunkier prams...

But then I don't store mine in a communal hallway...

I think YABU in assuming that they will want to move this child into a smaller pram - its not an automatic progression....and YABslightlyU that this was okay for 6 months but now you have decided it isn't just becuase you think they should have changed the type of pram their child is in...

However they are being unreasonable that they aren;t having a bit of give and take, and not taking the pram up the stairs sometimes (I presume its the "bumping the pram up a flight of stairs" that is causing them to just leave it downstairs

GirlsAreLoud, I could put up with something for a while if I think it's going to end soon (6 months) but would eventually run out of patience - and a damn site sooner than an additional 14 months! I think the OP was trying to be considerate and that the neighbours are just taking the piss now.

KG100 - you asked about the bikes in advance - what did they say was the problem once they were actually there?

mazzystartled Sun 27-Sep-09 18:06:05

then i reckon you need to
1. generally work on your relationship with your neighbours, because this shouldn't be such a big issue to tackle
AND
2. consider whether you can put up and shut up, on the basis that keeping it there inconveniences you less than lugging it + kid + whatever inconveniences them
OR
3. if it is genuinely in the way, tell them straight that it is causing a problem and that as per your leasehold/freehold you need them to make alternative arrangements. and keep your bikes out of the way always.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:07:31

QuintessionalShadow, not sure why having the ground floor should make any difference. I've had a first floor flat in the past and stored my bike in my flat. As for daily use or not, they have only just accepted the fact that when one of the them goes away with the baby they should move the pram into their flat. (They went away for a month over the summer and kept the pram in the hall and were clearly not using it every day then.)

diddl Germany Sun 27-Sep-09 18:08:07

I also only had a pram that converted to a buggy, never a lightweight stroller, but, I only blocked my own hall!

I don´t see why they couldn´t take it up in the evening & bring down the next morning.

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 18:10:01

But what I said was that they probably don't understand why it seemed ok for 6 months, and then suddenly isn't.

Maybe they think if you'd objected right away they would have exchanged it or something?

I don't think they should have left it in the hall, or that they should have shouted at you, but I can understand that they might think that you were ok with it, now suddenly your not, and to prove the point you're leaving your bikes in the hall. I'm not saying I back them 100%, I'm just trying to get you to think about what their POV might be.

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 18:11:38

Well that's just weird, they went away for a month and didn't need their pram? Did they fly somewhere or something?

MrsGokWantstogocampingagain Sun 27-Sep-09 18:12:02

If it is any of these, they all collapse

Brio Pushchairs

Check your deeds and see what it says about the hallway. In all the flats that we have lived in we were not allowed to keep anything in the comminal hallway as it constituted a fire hazzard ie when people were evacuating they could trip over it.

Could you have the fire brigade out to give your flat a fire check and see if they mention the pushchair.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:13:06

GirlsAreLoud, Fair enough, understand what you are saying. We've mentioned it about three or four times since the start of the year so this hasn't come out of the blue. We don't want to seem like we're on their backs about it, but we do want them to realise that this can't go on indefinitely (which seems to be what they want).

mazzystartled Sun 27-Sep-09 18:15:04

yeah the bike thing might be coming across as a bit passive agressive iyswim
as i said before i think you need to work on your relationship. doesn't sound like they are going anywhere fast.

shonaspurtle Sun 27-Sep-09 18:15:13

My concern would be that they may have no intention of ever moving it from the hall - even when their dc grows out of it.

My next door neighbour had a washing machine out in the hall for over 3 years. I put a plant pot on it, it became such a feature.

Eventually they left. Washing machine was still there so we took it down the stairs and phoned the council for them hmm

Communal living means that it's essential to think of your neighbours. They actually have no right to store the pram in the hall. I hauled a pram, baby, shopping up three flights of stairs for the 6 months until we bought a car and started storing it in the boot.

It wouldn't have occurred to me to store it downstairs where it would be in everyone's way (although that's partly because it would get nicked..)

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 18:16:07

I think you needed to tell them it was unacceptable straightaway. I don't think it should be up to you to decide when/whether they get a different pram.

I think if it bothered you this much then you shouldn't have just assumed it would be gone in six mionths and should have addressed when you first realised it was a problem.

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would accept that I didn't handle it as well as I could and just put up with it, it's not likely to be another 20 months that it's there.

I'm not backing the decisions they've made, but I really don't see how leaving bikes in the hall is a sensible was of addressing it.

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 18:16:30

I genuinely cant understand how it can be in your way, when the pram and two bicycles did not block the hallway!

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:16:50

MrsGokWantstogocampingaga... Pram definitely doesn't fold down, we asked him! To be honest, we were quite shocked that they hadn't bought a fold up one as it would seem to be a basic requirement when you live in a flat and are tight for space. But then we just didn't know what other people get as, like I've said, we don't have kiddies.

dinkystinky Sun 27-Sep-09 18:18:05

I lived in a ground floor flat with a massive communal hallway outside it when I had DS1 - still always stored our pram inside our flat (which had virtually no storage space) as didnt want to inconvenience any of our neighbours in any way by leaving it in the hallway. And all of my upstairs neighbours with children always took their prams/buggies up to their flats too. When you live in a flat you need to be considerate for the other people in the building.

OP - I think you probably need to speak with your neighbours about why the buggy is irritating you (.i.e. that there is no end in sight as to when it will stop causing a blockage in the hallway, that they can leave a buggy in the hallway but you cant leave bikes if you ask them) and suggest that the buggy be a obstacle free zone to restore neighbourly peace. If there are 2 of them around they could easily get the child and buggy up into their flat - if there is only one of them around maybe a compromise could be reached whereby the buggy would be in the hallway during the daytime only.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:19:32

QuintessentialShadow, Clearly they all did block the hallway, that's why she immediately knocked on the door and asked us to move the bikes! My answer was either none of us store our stuff there or we all can. Their response seems to be that only they should be allowed to store stuff there.

whostolemyname Sun 27-Sep-09 18:20:32

I think you are being a teeny bit unreasonable, i mean how much time do you actually spend in the hall for it to really impact you life? If you can also fit two bikes in it, it cant be in your way THAT much surely?

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:22:35

GirlsAreLOud, Of course it's not up to us to tell them when to get a new pram. That's in no way what I'm saying. But we've made it clear over a number of months that the situation is not acceptable to us and they don't seem willing to do anything about it. Should they really be able to store it there forever just because we tried to be considerate and not kick up a fuss from the start? Seems like they are taking advantage to me.

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 18:23:45

Did you not realize that putting both your bikes there blocked the hallway?
What if there was a fire?

It must be really irritating, though. Just because they have a child, and have to carry pram, and baby, and possible shopping up the stairs, they keep it down there, where you could have stored your bikes, if the pram wasnt there...

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 18:24:08

Ok, so how are you going to deal with this situation?

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:24:38

whostolemyname, But our point is if that they don't like the bikes there, how can they justify having the pram there? How is this not "one rule for us, another for you"?

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 18:25:33

Did you use to store the bikes there before they had a baby?

BitOfFun Sun 27-Sep-09 18:25:51

Blimey, I had no idea prams were so expensive! I'm trying to think of a way to put them off storing it there, but all I've got so far is maybe training a small rat to sit in it, perhaps nibble at the hood? Not sure if you'd be up for that though.

thesecondcoming Sun 27-Sep-09 18:26:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ilovesprouts Sun 27-Sep-09 18:28:34

yanbu

MillyMollyMoo Sun 27-Sep-09 18:29:30

YOu know she's gonna have another baby as soon as this one starts walking don't you ? I think you can inist she buys a smaller buggy on the basis that she has nowhere to put this one without causing trouble to her neighbours.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:30:04

GirlsAreLOud, they're meant to come down tonight to discuss but from all the conversations we've had so far and the emails they've sent us, their starting point seems to be that they don't want to budge. Not sure how we can get round that.

MovingOutOfBlighty Sun 27-Sep-09 18:32:00

Sorry - but I quite happily lugged our silver cross collapsable pram up and down a flight of stairs, yes, with a baby, and shopping etc when I couldn't be arsed to put it in the car.

As soon as I knew it bugged my neighbours I started to move it. Then it pissed me off doing that so I bought a McClaren. (price £80 and still in use 4 years later)
And I think that KG100 didn't handle it badly at the beginning, I think that they thought this was not going to be a forever situation.

I think you need to sit down with them in a friendly way and explain that you didn't think the pram would be there indefinitely and that it is making things awkward getting in and out of the flat and now that the baby is older you would prefer it out of the way. But no more bike shenanigans.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:32:19

MillyMollyMoo, he does already walk and she doesn't look like she's pregnant again yet! But seriously that's now a real fear of ours.

BitOfFun Sun 27-Sep-09 18:34:06

You might get further asking them to move their pram though than asking them not to have any more kids grin

MovingOutOfBlighty Sun 27-Sep-09 18:34:23

Why not give them a time by which you want it resolved. Say Christmas. That way they can save up for a new buggy for their toddler. I think that is more than reasonable.

QuintessentialShadow Sun 27-Sep-09 18:35:07

KG100 - I doubt they will budge.

Especially as your expectations are that they carry the pram up and down the stairs every time they go out with their child. This could be several times per day.

Especially as your main concern is that "if you can, then we can too" and block the entire hallway with your bikes in the process.

The mum may have a back problem. She may not be strong enough to carry the pram up and down the stairs.

Quite frankly, I am glad I dont live in a flat, with such inconsiderate neighbours as you.

lucky1979 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:35:09

One thing with the people saying it won't be forever - what if they have another DC? Then you're going to have it there for at least another 20 months - or an even bigger double one.

They can't justify it, except for they have bene doing it for nearly two years while you obviously can and do store your bikes in your own flat. So you're going to have to decide whether you want to make it into an ongoing grudge match and be at pitched war with them, or try and talk to them again. You're not being unreasonable though.

Alternatively, stick a plant pot on it and pretend it's a feature

violethill Sun 27-Sep-09 18:37:13

YANBU.

Not sure how you deal with this one though, as they sound a bit bonkers. They shouldn't be leaving their pram in the way in the communal area. But as they seem so dead set on doing that, they should at least realise they haven't got a leg to stand on if you decide to leave your wheels there too! They definitely think it's one rule for them and another for you.

I think you just have to turn this into a game of brinkmanship. Leave one bike out there tonight. Leave both bikes tomorrow. Then add a washing machine. Block them in totally. Climb out your back window instead of using the front door. grin

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:38:03

QuintessentialShadow, No. We honestly don't believe that it is right to store anything in the hallway. Up until two days ago, the most we'd left there was a couple of boxes of beer overnight, which a friend was meant to pick up. They've meanwhile used it to store the pram and building equipment (they had a bit of work). With the building equipment the builders were quite considerate when we asked them to move it. They had some kitchen cabinets in there too, which they moved when my husband pointed out that with us coming in and out (yes, with our bikes again) they may get scratched.

GirlsAreLOud Sun 27-Sep-09 18:38:11

How much of the hallway does it block? Is it a real fire hazard? How does it impede your life on a daily basis, because I think that needs to be what you explain to them.

E.g. - I can't get my bike past it, I can't walk past it with shopping.

BitOfFun Sun 27-Sep-09 18:39:50

More lateral thinking needed here I think. Could you pay some friends to pretend to be drunk and take drugs in the stairwell? That used to happen where I lived. Ask your husband to wee on it? I think they'd start moving it upstairs sharpish then.

shonaspurtle Sun 27-Sep-09 18:40:08

If you live in a flat then you don't buy a non-collapsing pram. Who knows what was going through their minds at the time but that was a bonkers decision.

violethill Sun 27-Sep-09 18:42:33

Do a turd on it? (Following on from BOF's suggestions)

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:46:45

QuintessentialShadow, Absolutely, there may be something we're not seeing but then the reasonable thing would be to point this out to us, not scream at us. As for being inconsiderate, is it not inconsiderate of them to completely ignore our feelings on this? How long do you expect us to put up with it? Really should we have to deal with this indefinitely because they have special rights because they have a baby? At what point is it not a "baby" any more but a toddler? Should we have this till he's at school? Because at the moment they really don't give any indication as to how long they intend to do this.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 18:47:57

having lived in tenement flats,others had buggies stored in their own flat.not hulking big carts in the hall

LifeOfKate Sun 27-Sep-09 18:49:16

I don't think you're being unreasonable, I would be pissed off 20 months later too. I don't understand why you would buy a big pram if you lived in a flat though, without other appropriate storage. I don't agree with not keeping it in a shed, I have a couple of friends in Norway in blocks of flats, and the general trend is that these flats have communal sheds for all the prams in the buildings... I've seen my friend use a pram + carrycot from out of the shed in -12 weather with no damp/cold problems. I guess it depends on the shed though.

anyway, the main thing I was going to comment on though, is that I think they are having you on with it not being foldable. It's pretty rare to find prams (obviously apart from Silver Cross types) nowadays that don't fold up, it seems like it's more of a case of them not being arsed to fold it up and down when they want to use it. I've just had a look at the Brio range of prams, and all fold. It's fair enough not to be bothered to fold up and down if the pram was in their space, but it isn't, and they are being unreasonable.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:49:28

BitOfFun, violethill, it's covered in sick and pretty grim already, we were going to give it away of Freecycle, but not sure anyone would take it in its current state!

violethill Sun 27-Sep-09 18:51:18

On a serious note, it does sound as though they fall into that category of people who think popping a baby out bestows all sorts of special rights on them. That seems to be the only explanation, given that they kick up a fuss if you leave your bikes there.

I think you just need to be very direct with them. Say that you believe the hallway should be kept completely clear, because it's a communal area, but that if they insist on leaving their pram there, then they will have to accept that it works both ways, and that you'll leave your belongings there when you want.

Hey - how about telling them you're expecting twins, and that you're sure they won't mind a twin pram in the hallway too. grin

It's not unreasonable at all to expect them to keep their pram in their flat. Nobody held a gun to their haed and forced them to buy an uber-pram - or live in an upstairs flat with a baby come to that. So it's heavy to take upstairs - tough, they either put up with it or but something not heavy instead. The op has been considerate and patient for nearly two years and now she's fed up. Fair enough imo.

If you deeds say no storage in the communal area then that means NO STORAGE EVEN OF PRAMS!

StayFrosty Sun 27-Sep-09 18:53:42

When I had my dd, we bought a Maclaren Techno XT, because it is light, collapsible and suitable from birth. We bore in mind that we lived in a first floor flat with no lift and that we were pushed for storage space inside. Hence our choice of pushchair. It's really not rocket science. Miraculously, despite not being Geoff Capes, I managed to get buggy, child and shopping up and down the stairs every day, sometimes several times a day, for two years, until we were able to move house. I had to. It is called life.

tbh I can't imagine not doing - does their baby never for eg fall asleep in the pram?

mazzystartled Sun 27-Sep-09 18:54:14

You've not responded to any of my suggestions (huff emoticon)

how do you usually get on? because if this is the only thing you disagree over then you are lucky

but then i reckon if you got on better this wouldn't be som much of an issue

have you looked at your leasehold/freehold arrangements?

you need to convey to them how much of a problem it causes you

but maybe have a think and see if it really does matter as much as you think

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 18:54:34

GirlsAreLOud, we've gone through all that, blocks our way, can't get bags in and out. Their attitude is that they get round it (you have to move the pram back and forth to get by but it's possible but a pain). They don't have any give.

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied Sun 27-Sep-09 19:00:35

I actually think YABU a bit. They need to put their pram somewhere and you don't have children so I think you should just be considerate of it. There's no need for them to shout at you but as long as you can get round the pram, which you have managed to do for the last 20 months, you should just accept that they have a baby and it's difficult living upstairs with a baby anyway.

Just leave it at that. I suspect you are being a little pernickety.

20 months is still not very old, they have probably spent a lot of money on that pram or someone has gone to the trouble of buying them it so it is their right to use it.

A 20 month old would not be lying down in a pram- they would climb out, so that doesn't add up.

If you think it is ok for you to put bikes there, you can cope with their pram being there a little longer.

It's just common decency.

HeadFairy Sun 27-Sep-09 19:05:39

I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to take it upstairs every time they go in and out. I've been there and it is back killing. However they are very unreasonable on not accepting that a) a giant pram is unsuitable for a shared hallway and b) that they are they only people who can put things in the hall.

I lived in a very similar situation, except I was upstairs. We deliberately bought a folding pushchair (a Bebeconfort Loola - suitable from birth) so we didn't block the hallway, and my neighbour was also able to leave her bike there. The hallway was no wider than the average Victorian house entrance hall, so a compromise is possible. Even when we switched to our P&T we folded it up and pushed it against the wall. I used to come downstairs with ds in a sling, open the pushchair and then put him in until he could sit up unaided, then he used to sit on the floor while I put the pushchair up - once he could walk he would stand and wait while I popped open the pushchair - it's no big deal.

I also think your neighbours have handled it badly by shouting, it's really not necessary. I do see what QS and others are saying when they disagree with you OP, but I do think it should be possible to come to a compromise without shouting and recriminations.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 19:08:06

folding brio you might want to turn turn off the cheesy music.video shows how to fold the buggy without small taking seat off

anyway how do they fold it to go in pram for car

or consider solicitors letter,you have been reasonable enough

Ivykaty44 Sun 27-Sep-09 19:10:34

Get the local fire officer in - it is a health and safety issue and the people upstairs would be at risk along with the downstairs flat.

That way he can set down the rules and that should be that - if they persist they can be prosecuted.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 19:19:49

Sorry mazzystartled, keep meaning to respond but then get distracted. Relationships are usually cordial but not great. She's been rude to delivery men who called for us (and indicently once she made a huge fuss because a courier wanted to leave a small package in the damned hall!) and was quite rude to my husband on the morning of his nan's funeral (which went down a treat, it was about bins, the bin men ripped one of our bags when they took the rubbish , and yes he told her what was going on, and she still went on at him, and I cleaned up the mess the bin men made straight away) and a few other little things. But we've tried really hard to be sensible and get on with things as we realise that we have to live with each other but this, they've really blown out of proportion. They do quite a few things in contravention of the freehold, and this would be one of them, but we don't bring them up as they don't bother us. But this one does, hence we've repeatedly tried to raise it.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 19:21:16

solicitor letter.did you look at the video of folding the pram.can be done

Niknak21 Sun 27-Sep-09 19:22:00

I hope they come over later and things move towards a satisfactory outcome.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 19:23:25

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied, but doesn't it work both ways? If they think it's ok to put their pram there, then surely they should be able to put up with our bikes. Surely that's common decency?

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 19:24:30

yes,the cannot use communal hall as storage but complain if you do too

one rule for themselves another for you

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 19:24:57

Niknak21, he's just sent my husband an email. Doesn't even want to come down to discuss. Really don't know how to deal with this.

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied Sun 27-Sep-09 19:27:17

Not really. I'd say a pram is more of a necessity than a couple of bikes- like you said you can keep them in your flat, and you are on the ground floor so you don't have to take them upstairs. They can't be expected to drag a pram up and downstairs several times a day whilst they leave a toddler in a flat, then bring him down and put him in the pram. It wouldn't work.

You asked if YABU and I think you are. Although, as I said, there's no need for their shouting. They should be apologetic and nice about it so that you find it easier to be understanding to their situation. If they shouted at me, I'd be purposely awkward about it and make sure they couldn't keep their pram there.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 19:28:07

politely reply, acknowledge small storage.request they stop storing open pram in hall within 2weeks.if they don't comply within time frame - solicitor letter.breach of freehold

would you compromise,and allow it there if they folded it up?

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 19:29:17

they shouldnt have bought such a big hulking cart living in a flat

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied Sun 27-Sep-09 19:30:11

If they can fold it up and won't, they are being ridiculous and lazy by the way!

Niknak21 Sun 27-Sep-09 19:31:36

I think scottishmummy's right, if he's too impolite/childish/just plain annoying not to try to sort this out you have to be firm. Otherwise any confrontation in the future will be affected. Be brave (again)!

MovingOutOfBlighty Sun 27-Sep-09 19:31:51

Totallyandutterly, I did this for over a year, lugging pram and toddler. It was not a problem.

I would be mortified about having my neighbours have to squeeze past my enormo pram!

Problem is, if they are being this belligerent (and right now I would say that although they are parents, the same as me, I would not classify them in any other way than being rude gits) then it is going to be a horrible place for you to live if you go down this pathway. I am such a peace loving wuss I woudl probably back down.

bibbitybobbityhat Sun 27-Sep-09 19:32:35

Wtf? "a pram is more of a necessity than a couple of bikes" ???

Its this kind of sense of entitlement, the whole world must compromise for me because I've got a baybee attitude that gives parents a bad name.

Utter tosh.

Yanbu op. If your neighbours are shouting and stomping around because your bikes were in their way in the hall after 20 MONTHS of leaving their pram out there, then they are being completely U.

StayFrosty Sun 27-Sep-09 19:33:53

>>They can't be expected to drag a pram up and downstairs several times a day whilst they leave a toddler in a flat, then bring him down and put him in the pram. It wouldn't work.

Yes they can. I used to. I had no choice. I bought a light pushchair precisely because of this. If I had heavy shopping I would make several trips. You either bump the pram up and down with the child in it or you do two separate trips. It's not easy but guess what, I had 9 months to contemplate the logistics of my living conditions vs buggy requirements.

MovingOutOfBlighty Sun 27-Sep-09 19:34:15

Hear hear bibbity

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied Sun 27-Sep-09 19:34:36

bibbity- she lives on the ground floor. If she lived upstairs and had to drag her bikes upstairs a few times a day I'd say they were being unreasonable and she should be able to leave her bikes there. It doesn't matter what the object is.

Some sort of pram is no doubt a necessity but a pram that they don't fold and that they leave in a space that no more belongs to them than it does the op is NOT a necessity. Of course they could take it upstairs - cities such as Glasgow and Edinburgh with a high proportion of flat dwellers are full of women (and men) lugging prams and babies up stairs. It's how it is. If the parents have particular physical needs that means they can't do this then they should at least fold their chariot. Their attitude seems to be that they can do what the hell they like because they live upstairs and have a baby - well that isn't a unique situation, nor does it justify their bullying attitude.

CrackWhoretoPaulDacre Sun 27-Sep-09 19:38:31

Who owns the freehold if you each have leaseholds? Is it worth getting in touch with the freeholder or the management company and letting them know what's been going on? Because, frankly, they sound pretty nightmarish (as a current and former flat dweller).

smallorange Sun 27-Sep-09 19:40:09

I live in a tenement and everyone I know stores their buggy in the communal hallway. Our hallwaysxare very large though. The attitude in our building seems to be that if you live communally, you have to put up with other peoples crap. I put up with cats on the stairs, partying students, arguments about washing lines in the back court and they put up with my double buggy in the hall and three kids.
I received a rather nasty letter from the factor asking me to move my double buggy. This after some new people moved into the ground floor flat. I am two floors up and was 8 months pregnant at the time. Was very pissed off with them.
Might she be pregnant again? Could this be ghe reason they are so stressed?
I don' t think she is being unreasonable storing it in the hallway - it won't kill you to keep the bikes inside will it?

violethill Sun 27-Sep-09 19:41:19

Totally agree with bibbity.

It's that sense of entitlement that is wrong. They don't want anyone else leaving bulky objects in the hallway, but they think they should be allowed to.

I'm afraid you can't use logic on people who don't get it.

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied Sun 27-Sep-09 19:42:07

I moved out of my flat and got a house when I got pregnant with my first DC as I knew things like this would be an issue and just couldn't be arsed. Fortunately the 1st floor flat and ground floor hallway were ours so we would have been able to store our pram there- but young girl upstairs started storing a washer and dryer down there in the hallway (not plumbed in or anything) so I thought 'nah, sod this, it's time to go'.

It was very expensive and crippled us but life has been so much easier since when it comes to DC (except now we have bastard neighbours who play loud music and keep him awake grin)

MovingOutOfBlighty Sun 27-Sep-09 19:43:31

For me, the novelty of being able to wheel my pram straight into the hallway of my own house without lugging up the stairs has still not worn off.
But still wouldn't have ever done what they have.

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied Sun 27-Sep-09 19:43:39

Smallorange has said what I was trying to say earlier- but better.

kitkatqueen Sun 27-Sep-09 19:44:41

OP, When I lived in a set flats with shared communal stairwells, the leasehold company would come round every so often to check certain things, one of them was that fire regs were being adhered to. ( They also had special keys to lock the light bulbs in and charged us for the privalige of having new ones! hmm) If you contacted them about your concerns and explained that you don't want to sully relationhips with the neihbours could they help?? Not really sure if you are in the same situation as I was so don't know if it really helps...

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 19:46:05

so why wont they fold it up.they are being avoidant saying it doesn't fold. most prams fold, and the brio (pram in question) definitely does.the link to folding it is posted earlier and is on youtube

having lived in tenement flats-other parents manage the buggy up/down stairs.yes it is bloody hard.and that's why you dont buy a hulking pram. you think what makes easier for yourself to negotiate a pram up/down

YeahBut Sun 27-Sep-09 19:48:33

OP, are you the landlord?

plantsitter Sun 27-Sep-09 19:49:46

It probably makes their lives about a million times easier to store the pram in the hall rather than fold it and lug it up the stairs every time they go in (if it folded, I mean). I think if they'd said 'look, do you mind only it really does make things easier' you would be a tiny bit unreasonable not to let them keep it there.

However since they've clearly thrown a big strop and are being belligerent, I can see why you've got annoyed.

I suppose it comes down to how much of a dispute you want to have with your neighbours over a pushchair, really. You have to live underneath them and see them every day, and I know from experience how stressful having an argument with the neighbours can be.

Would you be happier with a war with your neighbours and no pushchair any more or a pushchair in the hall and polite if strained relations with your neighbours? That's a genuine question by the way.

kitkatqueen Sun 27-Sep-09 19:50:37

op photograph the damn thing and post the pic on here - someone on here will know how to fold it and you can then tell the neihbours "yes it does fold and you do it like this" grrr

kitkatqueen Sun 27-Sep-09 19:51:38

xed post with SM....

Bellsa Sun 27-Sep-09 19:52:26

They are being unreasonable, for the reasons given. I managed in a flat hoiking a buggy up and down the stairs, as did my sis at her flat. I'd move it to obscure the stairs or fold it down every time I passed it. But I am immature.

kitkatqueen Sun 27-Sep-09 19:53:07

if you have his email then send him the how to fold link...

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 19:53:39

i think 20month of pram in hall is taking the piss.of course they should fold it up.parents don't have an intrinsic right not to be inconvenienced because they are parents.

other parents manage this in tenements in glasgow/edinburgh with many internal stairs.no fun,but has to be done

KnickKnack Sun 27-Sep-09 19:55:56

email them this thread wink

Hulababy Sun 27-Sep-09 19:58:57

They are wrong IMO to store their pram in a communcal hall. They should have bought a pram that was suited to their situation at the time of having the baby - this means taking into account where it will be sotred and how it will be taken into your accomdation.

I lived in an apartment when DD was a baby. Would never have dramt to storing a pram int he hallways, despite living on the fifth floor. I got a pram that folded and was light enough to take up and down in the lift or stairs if required, or that could be stored in the car boot.

They are being totally inconsiderate IMO.

smallorange Sun 27-Sep-09 20:04:40

Everyone I know whol lives in a tenement stores buggies in the communal hallway. Neighbours seem to cut you some slack when you have young children, knowing how bloody hard it is trying to shopping etc up while stopping your toddler from falling back down or dropping the baby.
I do think this couple are making a meal of it though. I'd suggest to them they get a fold up buggy and put your bikes out too, if there is enough room without it being dangerous. If there is not enough room I'd say you should put with the pram it and rest assured you will get your reward in heaven.
You might need someone to be equally generous to you one day.

TheHeadbangingWombat Sun 27-Sep-09 20:06:54

The OP has been very tolerant.She's put up with it for 20 months now.

HecatesTwopenceworth Sun 27-Sep-09 20:11:00

OP - you joined to be able to post this, yes?

Are you hoping that the people you are talking about are on here and will recognise themselves and perhaps see things your way?

Just curious. No opinion on whether that would be right or wrong. grin

oldraver Sun 27-Sep-09 20:13:22

Your neighbour is lying about the pram not folding. Email him and aske them to remove it to your flat to keep in with the terms and conditions of the lease. Then I would stick the thing outdoors

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 20:14:13

it is a legitimate post.regardless of when op joined

have you been snooping around,making 2+2=5

why does kg100 have to justify her motives?
do you ask other's too?
do you search for other new posters and ask their motives?

NeedCoffee Sun 27-Sep-09 20:16:34

It'd be a shame if the worry over it left you so very tired that you accidently forgot to lock the shared door one night and some kids nicked it to put on a bonfire play with it.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 20:18:03

ach tempting but no.op has moral high ground without acting like a radge

smallorange Sun 27-Sep-09 20:18:10

Tis a bit that she hasn't rushed out to buy a maclaren yet. I couldn't wait to get rid of my pram when I had dd1. The maclaren was liberating. I could bump her upstairs and leave her to nap in the buggy. Am now making plans to get rid of double buggy ( much to the relief of neighbours, no doubt) and make do with maclaren and sling.

Please tell her op - the maclaren will change her life!

HecatesTwopenceworth Sun 27-Sep-09 20:19:14

Is that aimed at me? OP said she'd joined to get perspectives. I was curious. I wondered whether she was hoping that these people would be members, read it and see things her way. I don't give a crap, like I said. It was not a go at her, or a judgement. I was wondering whether she was hoping to get through to them if they were here. There was nothing snide in my post or intention at all.

I don't know what you read in my post but you can back the fuck off.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 20:21:42

what i read hecates was you checked up on when op joined?

why?

what does it matter.

if she had been here a zillion mn years would that make her post legitimate?but because you note she is new you question her motives

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight Sun 27-Sep-09 20:22:48

Yes - I don't know why everybody doesn't just get a maclaren. Same pram from birth until it falls apart, easily folded, easily carried. Poncy big prams are stooopid wink

NeedCoffee Sun 27-Sep-09 20:23:54

ah but she said its all yucky and got sick all over it, I'd hate that cluttering up my hallway, sounds like a health hazard as well as a fire hazard!

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 20:23:56

poncy big pram fine if you have poncy big storage

HecatesTwopenceworth Sun 27-Sep-09 20:25:17

SHE said she had joined to get perspectives. That's where I got that from.

And that's why I wondered if she was hoping that they would read this.

I don't see why that's a bad thing. I don't think that's a bad thing for her to have done, she's tried talking to them, maybe she's hoping! what's wrong with putting something somewhere where someone might read it and see it, if you are hoping that it will help? And what's wrong with asking if she is hoping that?

groundhogs Sun 27-Sep-09 20:27:08

QuintessentialShadow: OP said they spoke about bringing the bikes in beforehand, yet when they did, the neighbours went berserk.

They sound unreasonable OP, and this will be creating an issue which won't get any easier over time.

You own both properties? They rent from you? Have you any idea how many people there are that could replace them in an instant?

Give them notice.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 20:28:31

the joy of mn is the anonymity it could be your neighbour.the what if factor is quite beguiling

iliketurquoise Sun 27-Sep-09 20:30:37

i've read some of the posts here and my idea is that nothing must not be put in communal areas because of health and safety issues, no matter if there is space or not.
you can come up with this, thats it an dont change your idea.
if they say anything there must be some agencies to apply to solve this problem and you can tell you gonna do that.

smallorange Sun 27-Sep-09 20:35:53

The couple's behaviour is downright odd IMO. If the pram is such a mess you wonder if she is coping. This could explain their reaction. Hmmm(strokes amateur psychologist beard)

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 21:06:41

HecatesTwopenceworth, Yes, I did join just to post this. In terms of whether they'd see it or not, I didn't post in the hope that they would, as I did think this could go either way. Mummies may just feel differently, and they may well have been more supportive, but as it happens the general consensus isn't that sympathetic to them, so I may just mail them the link! Although probably best not, as that would only add fuel to the fire!

thesecondcoming Sun 27-Sep-09 21:10:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 21:13:17

TotallyAndUtterlyPaninied, The fact they've been so difficult has made things worse. We've now got the point where we don't even want to compromise. Originally we were thinking that if they could give us a timeline to resolve this we would work to that. But after this weekend's fiasco we want them to remove it straight away and are seriously thinking about getting our solicitor to write to them about their multiple freehold infringements. But, we really don't want to go down that route.

Horton Sun 27-Sep-09 21:23:41

Good grief, I wouldn't want my own pram in my hallway, never mind someone else's. And why they are carting around an enormo-pram for a walking child if 20 months is completely incomprehensible to me. I got DD into a Maclaren at 10 weeks because I couldn't take one more day of the Mamas and Papas nightmare that seemed such a great idea when I didn't actually have a child. I would point out to them politely but firmly that they are a) getting in your way and have been for 20 months and you've been very nice about it and b) infringing their leasehold agreement, and ask them what they would like to do about it. I do see that storing a buggy or pram outside is perhaps impractical for dampness and coldness reasons but I think they really need to think about how things need to change in order not to put other people out. After all, the OP didn't decide to have a baby, and the other couple did. It's up to them to manage that in a way that doesn't annoy anyone else unnecessarily. Because annoying people when you don't need to is just plain rude.

ChilloHippi Sun 27-Sep-09 21:24:42

It's a fire hazard, blocking an exit.

spicemonster Sun 27-Sep-09 21:25:28

I live in the basement of a house divided into flats and I'm the only person with my own entrance. My neighbours upstairs had a baby at the same time as me and they got a Maclaren Techno from the off and left it in the hall. I had an enormous travel system but kept it in my flat. It's bloody inconsiderate to get an enormous pram and keep it in a communal hall IMO

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 21:27:44

scottishmummy, Thanks for the video you posted. Just got round to looking at the pram to see if it folding but unfortunately it's not the same version as the one in the video. Really doesn't look like it folds down. Probably good thing though, I was just seething at the thought that it folded all along and they just couldn't be bothered!

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 21:37:07

most prams do fold down! post a description and i will look for you

any words on chassis or fabrics?

brio website have a lookey

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 21:38:17

thesecondcoming, Agreed, we suspect that there is more to meets the eye from this. From her point of view there must be something going on that is upsetting her and we don't know about. And potentially we've done something to them that bothers them. Like I've said already we've had some minor rows about rubbish, but we've tried to do everything we can to resolve them. We bought a second bin and we double bag all our rubbish because the foxes got to it and she complained. But apart from that, there hasn't been anything they've raised to us. I suspect that she is angry because our flat was done up by developers and the building work negatively impacted them. She may think we got a "free ride" of the back of it, and therefore they should get consessions (she's as good as said so before). But we can't be held responsible for whoever came before us. And in terms of consessions, they have had extensive building work done since we moved in and we didn't complain once during it and afterwards we mentioned politely that the builders had left a mess, which we asked them to sort out. So yes, maybe there is more to it, but we'd really like it if they would tell us what because at the moment it's just coming across that they think they are a special case because they have a baby, which was fine for a bit but can't go on forever.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 21:40:46

scottishmummy, nothing on it to hint at what make or model it is but I'll take a look on the website and see if I can find it there.

When my DS was a baby we lived on the groundfloor of a Scottish tenement block and I stored my pram in my tiny hall inside the flat. You had to 'breathe in' just to get passed it to answer the front door! But that was OK because it was only in my way.

When my neighbour on the top floor had a new baby she asked us if we would mind her pram being in the downstairs hall during the day but upstairs at night. Her partner would carry the pram down first thing in the morning so that the mum could use it all day - leaving it in the communal hall when not in use. Then the partner would collect it and take it back upstairs when he came home in the evening.

Obviously we said yes and to be honest I wouldn't have minded them leaving the pram there 24/7 but I think they were worried it might get stolen overnight.

KG100 - I hope that you can sort something out with your neighbours so that there is a bit of give and take rather than them simply doing what is easier for them. I have a sneaking suspicion that if they continue to get their own way you will soon end up with child's bike/ride-ons stored in that area once the toddler starts to reach that stage.

Cloudbase Sun 27-Sep-09 21:52:09

The neighbours sound incredibly rude and unhelpful, which is unfortunate, because to be honest I can sort of see all sides here.

I can totally understand why you don't want to fight your way past some honking great fully assembled pram every day (the whole 'it doesn't collapse' thing? Just plain bloody mindedness - unless they've got some family heirloom antique model, I don't think they make prams that don't collapse down these days)

Having said that, I live in a 2nd floor flat with an 18mth old and a 35mth old. Thankfully they can now both amble down the stairs on reins, out to the car park to the car boot where I keep my pram. But for ages, when I just had the one baby, I did the lugging the pushchair up the stairs thing every day and I HATED it! I think I would have given anything to have been able to have left it downstairs.

From what you have said this isn't a conventional block of flats, but some kind of house conversion into two flats which you both individually own? Having lived in a similar conversion flat myself, they don't necessarily feel like 'shared' spaces (although obviously, and legally, they are)

Are they under the impression that as they own their flat, they also own half the hallway and can therefore leave whatever they want there? Fire regulations aside, is this in fact the case?

I'm not condoning their attitude, which stinks, but those of us who have done the pram to flat lugging thing daily, have only done so because we have had no choice according to our tenancy/leasehold agreements etc. If I thought I half owned a hallway I would be mightily tempted to leave my pushchair there (folded, of course!)

HecatesTwopenceworth Sun 27-Sep-09 22:09:17

K - yes, I know you did. You said so earlier. That's why I wondered if there was a part of you that was hoping they'd be members, see it and "see the light" so to speak! grin

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 22:38:37

Cloudbase, we didn't think they made prams that didn't fold down either but clearly they do and upstairs bought it! If they'd bought a folding version (and kept it folded) we probably would never have said anything. But they didn't and we don't see why we should suffer because they made a purchasing mistake. They know full well that the communal hall doesn't belong to either of us and they can't block it but their repeated argument has been that they have "special" needs because of the baby, which we feel that we've allowed for. They give no indication of how long they intend to keep it there and seeing as it looks like it may be the kind of model you can use till the kid is three or four, we're beginning to think that may be their time horizon (although they won't come out and say it).

spicemonster Sun 27-Sep-09 22:54:33

If you are going to keep your pushchair/pram/buggy/whatever in the communal hallway, you buy a small one that either folds up or doesn't take much room.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:00:16

HecatesTwopenceworth, it's sad but I don't think we're dealing with the kind of people that will magically "see the light".

Niknak21 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:02:42

Let us know how it works out, this has kept me gripped all evening! I know, I need to get a life grin. But I do feel for you and the tension this sort of thing causes.

Cloudbase Sun 27-Sep-09 23:03:16

Fair enough KG; if neither of you owns the hallway, then they presumably must be aware that what they are doing contravenes the leasehold. It's weird tho - if I needed a favour from my neighbour (i.e to agree that I could leave my Uberpram in the hallway) I would be sooooo nice to them! I don't understand the aggression.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:11:50

Niknak21, honestly I don't think this is going to work out well for anyone. Previous to this painful behaviour, we were planning on giving them a month or so to find and alternative and get rid of the old one, or whatever they wanted to do to get it out of our way. After all the nonsense of the last couple of days and his refusal to come down and talk about it tonight, we're think that we give 48 hours to get rid or take it upstairs. Our only enforcement option would seem to be to take it outside every morning and leave it in the front yard. It seems really mean, but not sure what we can do if they won't discuss it. To be honest I'd rather put up with the noise they've started making than the pram. I know they won't be able to keep the stomping up forever and can't do it at night because they have the baby and would wake him.

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:13:53

Cloudbase, I think the aggression is because she knows that the timeframe for favours is running out and she doesn't see why it should.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 23:17:42

tit for tat placing it in yard is wrong.you have legitimate complaint.dont jeopardise that by carting their pram outside.it is too provocative

get a solicitor letter,invoke terms of lease

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:27:06

scottishmummy, I don't think either my husband or I have the heart to actually ship it outside, however much they are driving us insane. We're more hoping that the threat may make them realise that they really need to start thinking about this. My husband pointed out this afternoon that if the noise carried on we would make a formal complaint under the terms of the lease and that seems to have put a stop to that for a bit but still no hint at timeline for removing the pram.

lucky1979 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:32:05

I think if you put their pram in the yard and it's trashed or stolen then you will be at fault for that, and possibly even financially liable?

Who owns the leasehold? Can you talk to them? If it's a fire risk then you'll have much more luck approaching it from that angle than declaring war on them and trashing their pram.

scottishmummy Argentina Sun 27-Sep-09 23:32:56

give them an ultimatum move it with week or solicitor letter,detailing breach of lease

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:39:25

lucky1979, We would warn them first and make it perfectly clear that they would be liable if we did feel driven to move it. But as I said, it's not something I would take lightly.

scottishmummy, think that's the way to go. They are in breach of several parts of the freehold and it would severly affect them. (They use our flat roof to dry washing, run a business from their flat and obviously block the hall with their pram. It's only the last point that bothers us, but we'd throw them all in just to bring the point home.) But just seems so severe. Really wish that we could have had a reasoned discussion on this.

Eyeballls Sun 27-Sep-09 23:44:17

How big is the hall and seriously how big is the pram? Because unless you have a hall the size of a postage stamp or the pram is a 100 year old Silver Cross then I'd be interested to know really how much it gets in your way or whether you've just got your knickers in a knot for the sake of it. TBH reading this thread it sounds like you're the one who thinks you own the hall outside your flat. Is it really that much of a big deal or are you being a bit of a drama queen?

KG100 Sun 27-Sep-09 23:48:56

Eyeballls, the hall is a normal sized hall in a Victorian terrace. The pram isn't a Silver Cross, but may as well be because it's pretty big and doesn't fold down (and we have asked them about it folding to be sure). If they'd got a folding one this wouldn't have been an issue.

sandcastles Mon 28-Sep-09 02:19:21

I have just done a quick look-see at all the prams etc on Brio. Yes, I am bored! grin

There are only 2 actual 'prams' on the website (not counting the Go here as we know it folds & it is a trio of carseat/pram/stroller). Happy & Sing. Both indicate in the dimensions that they fold!

Strollers - Happy & Sing. Again, both fold!

Presumably only the current range of prams is on the website though - not every pram that Brio has ever made will have folded. The pram in question must be at least 2 years old, and if it was acquired 2nd hand by the neighbours it could be a lot older than that - the neighbours could well be telling the truth that it does not fold.

nappyaddict Mon 28-Sep-09 02:44:56

When you put the bikes in there could you put them on the same side of the wheel as the pram so they weren't really taking up any more space or was your only option to put them on the other side opposite the pram creating a sort of tunnel that you had to walk through (which i can imagine would be quite difficult)

sandcastles Mon 28-Sep-09 02:55:48
OrmIrian Mon 28-Sep-09 08:26:11

1. They should fold it up if they are going to leave it there. If it doesn't fold up they are utter twats for buying it in the circs. I wouldn't buy a massive great 4x4 if I only had a teeny weeny parking space.

2. They have no automatic rights to use the hallway. You have been more than reasonable so far.

3. You have just as much right to leave anything in the hall as they do - bikes, elephants or stepladders. If they can so can you.

4. They had no right to shout at you. Very rude. If they expect to keep the pram there, they should discuss it with you politely and be grateful.

5 Babies do not confer special rights. She produced a normal child not the Messiah hmm

KG100 Mon 28-Sep-09 09:04:46

nappyaddict, bikes were on the same side as the pram, my husband made sure that she could get by and get the pram in and out without moving the bikes. We know it was tight but we wouldn't have put them there if they reduced the access so much that the pram couldn't be taken out when she wanted to.

KG100 Mon 28-Sep-09 09:06:46

sandcastles, had a look last night and it looks like the Happy which from the website does fold but I can't figure out how. Telling them it folds but not being able to prove it would seem a little bit too much like accusing them of lying without having the evidence.

NeedCoffee Mon 28-Sep-09 09:12:13

KG-going by the pic of the 'Happy' I'd say you have to pull the clips up towards you either side of the frame, kind of if you're stood as though you're going to push it and slide your hands down the frame iyswim-if its the same as the one that I had that was similar, it can be done with the carrycot on too.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia Mon 28-Sep-09 10:22:38

Your neighbours are clearly Being Unreasonable

BUT

Do you really want to start formal proceedings that you will have to disclose if you ever want to sell your flat?

Tangle Mon 28-Sep-09 10:28:25

Sounds to me like you've been very reasonable to date! If you have a baby and live in a flat you don't buy a great big pram that you can't get up the stairs and so gets in everyone's way...

At this point I'd consider what you're main goal is. Whilst its tempting to work out how to fold the wretched thing and leave it for her to figure out (assuming it does turn out to fold), is that tacitly giving tacit permission for them to keep it in the hall in a folded state? Given the last 20 months, are you now happy with that solution? Does it set a precedent for the childs ride-ons, scooters and bikes all taking up residence over the coming years (along with the pram, should they have a 2nd?)

If it were me I'd be tempted to look into how to make them see that keeping anything in such a small hall is a bad idea (fire regs seems the most obvious if you don't want to push terms of the leasehold - if you got the firebrigrade round for advice, would they knock on the door and tell them face to face that its a fire hazard? could be worth finding out) and accept that the rules also apply to me, as you seem to do. Its difficult to see how you're going to come out of these with a clear hall and an amicable relationship at the moment, so I'd consider which one is more important to you.

Good luck - and do let us know how it goes

nappyaddict Mon 28-Sep-09 10:35:54

The thing is why hasn't it been a problem to you for the last 20 months, and now suddenly it is?

The way they behaved about the bikes is totally unreasonable by the way and if i were you i would just leave them there anyway. If they can put there pram there, then you can put your bikes there as long as there is still plenty of room for access which you say there is.

sandcastles Mon 28-Sep-09 10:40:28

KG, I do see where you are coming from re not being able to prove it etc. They either are utter twunts for not knowing it folds, or they are lying about it.

KG, I think I'd be inclined to go out there & fold it myself! wink

CarGirl Mon 28-Sep-09 10:42:48

wait until they're out/in bed for the night, go out and fold it. May force them to speak to you again about it if nothing else!

They are being unreasonble and they know it hence the attitude I think.

CarGirl Mon 28-Sep-09 10:43:56

Just remembered in my first home (flat) we used to have to keep the pushchair folded in front of the door on the inside as it was the only space to keep it - had downstairs tiny kitchen & bathroom everything else upstairs.

Bathsheba Belgium Mon 28-Sep-09 10:46:01

Folding it up for them is a great idea but it will only work if you'll accept them leaving it there but folded as a compromise.

If you want it away then folding it up will serve no purpose.

I simply cannot believe it doesn't fold. It may be they bought it 2nd hand or something and don;t know how to fold it, but it simply must as a modern pram, fold somewhat.

I have the world's biggest pram but it folds....not to very small, but to smaller...

toddlerama Mon 28-Sep-09 11:14:24

Just hide it. Let them assume it was stolen.

gingernutlover Mon 28-Sep-09 11:22:35

just done a google for brio pram

and everything that came up seemed to be saying they fold for convenience grin

is it like this one?

maybe print it and post it throught their door with a helpful note "great news, look you prma does fold after all, let me know next time you need a hand taking it upstairs!"

gingernutlover Mon 28-Sep-09 11:23:33

also like the idea of hiding it grin or since it is a permament fixture maybe you should use it as an umbrella stand on a rainy day!

scottishmummy Argentina Mon 28-Sep-09 12:57:24

kg not your responsibility to tell them how to fold their own pram

the onus is upon them to fold and store appropriately.they are taking the piss saying it doesnt fold.it is evasive and avoidant

OrmIrian Mon 28-Sep-09 14:01:38

You can get a free fire safety check of your home by the fire brigade. I am sure they'd be interested in the pram blocking the hall.

MrsGokWantstogocampingagain Mon 28-Sep-09 14:03:25

I do think getting a fire prevention officer out to check your flat out for being safe is a good idea. Then you can ask about the push chair and if it is a fire hazzard. If you ask nicely the officer may write a letter for you.

Stigaloid Mon 28-Sep-09 14:14:06

I agree with the fire prevention method. Seems like a good way to get an outside party involved that makes logical sense. Your neighbours are being very unreasonable storing their pram in a communal hallway especially as you have asked on numerous occasions when they may be mving it and it is on your floor level and not theirs. Unless you store something outside their front door and see how much they like it.

Folding the pram doesn't oblige you to put up with it in the communal hall, it just makes it easier for them to take it up the stairs.

MichKit Mon 28-Sep-09 15:41:41

Fire safety officers are the way to go. We had a similar problem with upstairs people blocking the communal hallway with bikes (with barely any space to get through at all), so went to council who suggested we make an appointment with the fire safety officers, who told off the upstairs boys. Never had a problem since.

Fire officers take this sort of blocking of communal areas extremely seriously.

Obviously if you go down this route you won't be able to leave your bikes there either, but from your post it sounds like you don't usually do it anyway.

pigletmania Mon 28-Sep-09 16:26:57

YANBU my dd was in an umbrella buggy at 4 months old (it is a birth+ one). Why the hell did they buy a big pram if they had nowehre to store it, idiots! Why on earth is a 20moth in a pram anyway shock. When they bought the pram i think they left their senses at home.

NigellaTufnel Mon 28-Sep-09 17:18:16

Can you put some brackets on the wall and hang your bikes up high so everyone can store stuff in the hall?

KG100 Mon 28-Sep-09 18:09:09

Nigella, I'm 4'11"!!! Hanging bikes up high isn't going to work if I ever want to use them! But nice try, may have worked otherwise!

LifeOfKate Mon 28-Sep-09 18:30:50

You are incredibly restrained, I would have had to go out and have a fiddle with it to see if it folded long before 20 months!!

franklymydear Mon 28-Sep-09 18:58:34

I suggest having a party with all your lovely no children mates

obviously the hall will need to be cleared for your party

and you will be considerate neighbours and turn down the music around 12pm won't you?

C&P the email he sent

curiositykilled Mon 28-Sep-09 19:41:09

I think you will never get anywhere if you are going to behave unreasonably as well. Leaving the bikes there was actually a very silly thing to do because it undermines your whole position re the terms of the lease.

If the pram is actually blocking the hallway so that movement is restricted coming in and out then it is a fire hazard. There's no need to make such a song and dance about negotiations, unreasonable behaviour, what kind of pram they should or could have or anything else. Just get the fire officer who will come round, look at the risk and speak to them about moving it.

If it doesn't block the hallway and pose a risk just leave them alone. It is hard work lugging any pram up and down the stairs every day and going on and on at them about something like this that actually may not be that important will just make your life a misery.

To be honest you both sound as if you have behaved as childishly and unreasonably as each other over something really small.

KIMItheThreadSlayer Mon 28-Sep-09 19:52:28

Why should they have extra rights over the hallway?
Having a child does not mean you get it all your own way.

If I were you I would make sure their pram had a little accident or maybe the door got left open and it was "stolen"

OrmIrian Mon 28-Sep-09 19:56:20

cutiosity - I don't think it sounds as if they are both unreasonable at all hmm Yet again it's a case of parents having more rights than anyone else. Why shouldn't the OP leave her bike in the hall for one weekend? That is not the same as a pram being there for 20m.

curiositykilled Mon 28-Sep-09 20:22:34

ormirian - I haven't said anything about parents having more rights than anyone else. The OP wants to use "it says in the lease that the hall can't be used for storage" as an argument against the other people leaving their pram there. Leaving their bikes there undermines that argument, even if they have only done it once. 'If they can do it, we should be able to' is not really an argument. That is all.

The points I am making have nothing to do with any person's right over space. More just that if you share a space with a neighbour it is better for you to behave calmly, considerately and reasonably even if they are not. You may have to share the space for the next 20 years. Why make things into a big fight?

Leaving the pram there in the first place might have been unreasonable, I don't know, I haven't seen the hallway in question or how much of an obstruction it really causes. The correct and sensible thing to do would have been to assess how much of a problem it actually causes, speak to the neighbour and explain that it is a fire hazard, wait for them to move it. If they don't, call the fire officer. OR if it actually isn't much of a risk just leave them alone because it isn't causing a problem and trying to get involved with making them move it might make more trouble than it is worth.

Some of the suggestions about damaging the pram or causing it to be stolen are beyond belief and could end up with the OP getting in trouble with the police. This would be unlikely to solve the problem anyway, it would probably lead to an ongoing tit for tat situaton until one of the neighbours couldn't stand it anymore and was forced to move.

smallorange Mon 28-Sep-09 20:39:23

have to say, as a long-term hall-hogger, I agree with curiosity. grin

The couple are making things worse for themselves though, by refusing to discuss like adults.

The sensible thing would be for them to agree that the buggy goes in x months, apologise to op for the inconvenience, explain why they are leaving it there (too big to get through their front door?) and stick to the agreement.

They should not assume that because They Have A Child, that any request to move The Chariot is unreasonable.

I am moving double buggy (known as Shrek to close friends and family) after Christmas. And have told the neighbours so.

suey2 Mon 28-Sep-09 20:43:43

kg100 you can get pulleys for your bikes: you hook it up and then winch it up high. I used one when we lived in a flat with a tiny hallway.

curiositykilled, the OP did not leave the bikes in the hall in the same way that their neighbours have left the pram there for 20months - "So we asked them if they would mind us storing our bikes there occasionally. They said they wouldn't object and so on Thursday night my husband moved the bikes up in anticipation of going for a bike ride or two over the weekend." The bikes have been left there ONCE, they are usually stored in the OP's flat. The two flats are converted from a Victorian house, I imagine that the hall is long and relatively narrow. OP has said that pram is in the way when carrying shopping, gym bags etc. (For me, that would be every time I went through the hall.) And as has been pointed out by others, even when the pram eventually goes, will there be ride-on toys etc. stored out there? There is no real end in sight.

curiositykilled Mon 28-Sep-09 21:15:19

Bleeding 'ell! grin I'm not saying they did it in the same way. I'm saying they did it. Doing it at all, in any way, undermines the no-one can store stuff in the hall argument.

ElectricElephant Mon 28-Sep-09 21:18:34

I second the advice to call out the fire brigade who will do a building check/check your smoke alarms etc.

It will be against fire regs - you're not allowed to have anything blocking communal areas.

HalfMumHalfBiscuit Mon 28-Sep-09 21:51:21

I agree with the fire regs check.

Or could you leave the front door unlocked by accident and see if anyone nicks the ruddy thing.

KG100 Mon 28-Sep-09 22:05:38

Well everyone, looks like we were lied to all along. After all the Mummies saying "but of course it folds down, they all fold down" we've looked into it further and yes, they have now admitted that it folded all along. God knows why they didn't say this in the first place cos I know we've had the conversation more than once and frankly they would have saved us all alot of hassle if they'd folded it down every night, or even just at weekend as that's when we tend to bring bikes, golf clubs and shopping in and out! Anyway, now that we know that they lied about the folding we've told them that we never want to see it again and we won't even accept a folding pram in the hall. We were quite blunt and said that this was incredibly selfish and we will make no further consessions. Let's see what they do.

curiositykilled, Normally I'd agree with you that we shouldn't leave our bikes in the hall, because it is against the terms of the lease. But as it's only the two flats and we share the freehold, it's really just what we agree between us. They agreed to it and it was an acceptable compromise from our point of view, if we could use it for bikes every now and then, as that does make life easier for us but they just didn't want to stick with that when push came to shove.

KG100 Mon 28-Sep-09 22:10:09

smallorange, I'm coming to the conclusion that they refused to tell us when they would move it because they didn't intend to until he was three or four. They've always said "soon" and tried to be non-commital if we raised it.

WTF? shock at them consistently lying.

anonacfr France Mon 28-Sep-09 22:34:37

By the way KG have they once apologised for the inconvenience?
I can kinda see why they wouldn't want to have to bring the pram up and down the stairs every day, but if that's how they were going to play it, the least they should have done would have been a big thank you, bottle of wine or choccies kind of gesture.

As it is they sound like a pair of self-entitled selfish prats quite frankly. They give parents a bad name!

anonacfr France Mon 28-Sep-09 22:37:26

By the way I just re-read your OP. WTF at fold up buggies not being suitable for 20 MONTH old toddlers????
They were so having you on from the start!!!! They were obviously banking on the no-kids vs parents of young child emotional blackmail.

And love the husband's comment about having extra rights in the hallway. Erm, why? hmm

nappyaddict Tue 29-Sep-09 00:50:15

An umbrella may not be suitable if they do a lot of walking though - nothing to do with him being a toddler, but more to do with the journeys they make with the pram. A pram with big wheels is so much comfier to ride in and push.

I can't imagine why they didn't fold it and put it on it's side all along though. Mine didn't fold with the seat on - you had to remove it from the chassis. But they could have folded the chassis and put it on it's side and perhaps laid the seat on it's side next to it.

sandcastles Tue 29-Sep-09 04:52:33

The recc age range for a Happy is 0 months - 9kg. At 20 months, isn't he way over that now?

If so, are they even still using it?

PurpleCrazyHorse Tue 29-Sep-09 06:12:00

Well done KG100. As others have said, any reasonable neighbour would keep pram in their flat or be super nice and accommodating about storing it in the hall.

LifeOfKate Tue 29-Sep-09 08:01:51

Goodness, I'm not surprised you're particularly angry now that you've found out it does fold after all!! It's backfired on them, you probably would have been happy to have it in the hall for longer if they had folded it from the beginning. What horrible people. Good on you to say you don't want it there at all now, I hope it works out.

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 10:13:17

of course it folds down,they lied.be firm get them to shift the cart or before you know it it will be trikes/bikes and gubbins.

but for the record i dont think you should store your bicycles in the hall either.the communal halll should be clutter free and that includes your bikes. if on principle you argue for freedom of access and no clutter then take your bike in too

if they dont shift the pram - solicitor letter

OrmIrian Tue 29-Sep-09 10:30:25

Get the bikes out and the fire safety office in.

nappyaddict Tue 29-Sep-09 10:32:58

My friend has the Brio Happy and it has the same age limit as all pushchairs which is approximately 3 years although many carry on using pushchairs until 4/5.

MrsGokWantstogocampingagain Tue 29-Sep-09 11:45:41

Orm the bikes thing is a red herring. They don't store the bikes in the hall but in the flat. From what I undestand from what the OP was saying was that one weekend they knew they were going to use the bikes a lot so asked the neighbours if they minded them being in hte hall to make it a bit easier for them. The neighbours said they didn't mind but when they did the neighbours kicked up an almighty fuss which has royally back fired on them grin

OrmIrian Tue 29-Sep-09 12:06:24

Agreed mrsgok - but if they are going to get the fire safety chap in, they would shoot themselves in the foot if their bikes were there.

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 12:10:30

Now that I've calmed down and am feeling a bit more reasonable, I think what's happened is that they bought a 2nd hand pram, were told it folded but never figured out how. More lazy than malicious, but still. Anyway, we have now “agreed” that the pram will be sold. Hopefully soon because they are refusing to move it until it's sold. (If I were feeling mean, I’d buy it myself, chain it to the wall and wait and see how long they lasted before they complained it was in their way! I’d give them, ooh, maybe 20 minutes.)

As for whether they have ever apologised for the inconvenience or said thank you, of course not. They did apologise for not moving when they went away for the month but given that we'd had a conversation about it just before they went away, I can't think why they wouldn't have though it appropriate to move it before they went. So again not good enough

They still think we are being arses and making a huge fuss about nothing but now I'm past the point of caring. Obviously would have liked to have an amicable relationship with them but that's clearly not possible. We'll just all have to stay out of each other's way.

By the way, re all the comments about it really being in our way, I’ve had similar comments from people at work when I’ve moaned to them (yes, this has really got to me!) Anyway, have a photo now and showed it round the office today and the general consensus is “omg, how did you ever put up with that!” I’d post the photo but I’m too much a technophobe to know how, so you’ll just have to take me at my word!

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 12:21:40

And of course, thank you to everyone that helped out and gave lots of advice. It's all really appreciated. I'm so much happier now that there's an end in sight to the Pram Wars.

To those of you who say it's people like that who give parents a bad name, you're absolutely right. These are the people you notice, not all the kind people who are quietly lugging their prams up and down the stairs. I really do feel sorry for all of you who had to carry prams up and down because I'm not sure I'd fancy that if I had a baby to carry as well, but we just felt that he isn't a baby anymore and he can walk while his mother carries the pram. If it's too big to carry, that's their mistake, they should have considered the fact that they lived in a first floor flat when they purchased it.

As for whether people with babies get "special rights" not sure that they are rights but I do still think that people should show a bit of consideration, hence the reason we tried not to make a fuss for the first few months. If it had been an elderly person upstairs, we would have shown the same consideration and let them use it to store stuff they couldn't carry up but I don't think we'd let them take the piss and move their mobility scooter in, and these two were just taking the piss.

am I being unreasonable to be astounded that a thread about prams in a communal hallway has 255 posts?

am I also being unreasonable to think that it is hmm for a non parent to come on to a parenting website to moan about this? do you know that your neighbour posts on here and want to get at them through here?

am i being unreasonable to simply LONG for you to have kids of your own and see how you feel about it then?

lucky1979 Tue 29-Sep-09 12:31:06

Well done on getting it sorted! I would put a time frame in for them to sell it though, otherwise they may well be thinking that they've got another 6 months out of you.

MovingOutOfBlighty Tue 29-Sep-09 12:32:13

I think that the Op wanted a parents viewpoint. Most people agreed that the parents were being unreasonable.
Personally don't think it is a bad thing for non-parents to post on a parenting website. It give another POV on things.

OrmIrian Tue 29-Sep-09 12:46:25

I think it's quite refreshing. As a parent it's all too easy to forget there are other POV out there.

And I don't think that parenthood will neccessarily change your ideas of reasonable and unreasonable behaviour.

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 12:47:50

themildmanneredjanitor, As I've said before, I genuinely came on to get another opinion not to moan and generally most people seemed to be quite sympathetic. If they hadn't maybe I would have re-thought my view, I'm generally open to persuasion which is why I ask for opinions, and in this circumstance this seemed like a reasonable place to go. Obviously we asked people we knew with kids too, but it's safe to say that friends and family can be a little bit biased, and no one we knew with kids ever had to share a communal hall.

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 12:55:14

MovingOutOfBlighty, OrmIrian, I'm really glad I came. If I hadn't my lasting impression of parents would have been the couple of upstairs and as been said before, people like that do give parents a bad name. As it is, my lasting impression of parents will not be them, but the mums on here who have without exception been reasoned and thoughful (even if they didn't agree with me) and full of good advice.

If I'm honest one of the reasons why I've put off motherhood is because you do come across alot of parents who can be quite selfish. Like I said, they're the people you notice, not the ones who still take care to think of people other than themselves and their children. It's not an attitude I've ever liked and I've always been quite terrified that all mothers become like that (maybe I assumed that it was a basic survival instinct where you had to do what's best for you and your kids and sod the rest of the world) but clearly not everyone's like that and the world's a nicer place than I thought it was!

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 12:57:02

lucky1979, they have a week! no point rushing them!

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 13:12:34

it is a legitimate post irrespective of parenting status,no special dibs here just because you happen to be mum

lucky1979 Tue 29-Sep-09 13:23:01

I didn't see the week limit - sorry! That's perfectly reasonable, I was just thinking that they might have agreed and have no intention of following through.

You'll have to come back in a wekk and let us know if the beast is gone though!

Could thye have been given the pram by a relative? that's why they didn't buy a little one.

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 13:43:08

ihavenewsockson, last night he said his mum bought it for him. Although slightly sympathetic to that, they've just handled it all so badly that we're not making any allowances for that anymore. Think that they have to just accept that the pram they chose (or his mother chose) just isn't suitable for their circumstances and they will have to get another one.

Sorry-should have read the whole thread. blush

glad it's getting sorted!

Hopefully Tue 29-Sep-09 13:59:06

Cannot believe I have read 10 pages of Chariotgate. Am now agog to see whether the neighbours sell the incredible non-folding-but-actually-it-does pram.

In next week's episode: The upstairs neighbours take up quad biking...

MichKit Tue 29-Sep-09 14:04:27

I've been following this thread too... glad you have finally decided to make a stand and wish you luck in sorting this out.

Do let us know what happens in a week though <very nosey emoticon>

freename Tue 29-Sep-09 14:09:03

haven't read the whole thread but they sound selfish. It is a communal hallway after all. Bad neighbours.

CarGirl Tue 29-Sep-09 14:51:38

we want a photo to see what you have put up with grin can you email it to one of us and we'll put it on here for you??????

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 15:48:16

ihavenewsockson - don't blame you, i wouldn't, there's 10 pages afterall!

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 15:51:33

CarGirl, let me know how to post it and I'll try to do so. I have it in a JPEG file.

CarGirl Tue 29-Sep-09 15:58:30

You would have to put it into a hosting site like photo bucket first or email it someone who has IYSWIM?

I'm happy to do it for you if you like?

I am sooooooooooo nosy

spicemonster Tue 29-Sep-09 15:59:41

Put it on www.imageshack.us - then it's just up there as a temp file

I am also bored at work and want to see this monstrosity

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 16:04:18

if it had been bugaboo folk would have been foaming at the chops

nothing like mere mention of bugaboo to get some folk incandescent

CarGirl Tue 29-Sep-09 16:09:51

no if it had been a bugaboo you would have taken upstairs!

needacupoftea Tue 29-Sep-09 16:14:37

Maybe you should buy an uber large second hand pram and store it in the hall too - you could use it to keep wellies and umberellas in - keeping a massive pram in the hall is clearly okay by them and I think that it could be excellent extra storage! p.s. my dd was in a foldable macalaren when she was 4 months.

LifeOfKate Tue 29-Sep-09 19:53:03

I have to say, this has been one of my favourite mn threads, for its gripping nature. I even had to text DH at work this morning to tell him it really does fold, he is as gripped by developments as I am!

pixsix Tue 29-Sep-09 20:08:51

Love this thread too! Please post the picture.

Horton Tue 29-Sep-09 20:34:55

I have also loved this thread. I would love to see the picture!

GrendelsMum Tue 29-Sep-09 21:02:47

Ooh, yes please - I'd really like to see the pram and the hallway. And the bikes. And the vomit stains on the pram.

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 21:38:37

OK, not that I've all night trying to work this or anything but here goes. You can now judge for yourselves!

[http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2448/pram.jpg The amazing folding pram in its unfolded state]

KG100 Tue 29-Sep-09 21:43:25

Now, let me be fair and try to explain how this works. The door you see is the door to the house. To your right is our front door to the flat and behind you is their front door.

They do usually try to push it to one side so you can walk past it (except for when we have fat friends come round and they do have to turn side on!)

The worst place they can (and very often do) leave it is were the photo is taken from and is basically straight outside our front door. So you open the door in the morning and walk into The Pram.

So there you go.

Too far away to capture the sick stains though I'm afraid.

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 21:43:26

link doesn't work try this page gosh you do have a small hall

anonacfr France Tue 29-Sep-09 21:44:24

You are kidding.... That is ridiculous!!!
You put up with that for TWENTY MONTHS? And they went away for a whole month and left it like that? WTF????

That is just plain rude.

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 21:46:26

jesus wept that is tight space.your neighbours are chancers

Lucky13 Tue 29-Sep-09 21:49:27

OMG - i had visions of it sticking out slightly from under the stairs or something, but not actually in a normal sized hall!!!!

Sorry but that is beyond a joke shock - poor you!

EggyChick Tue 29-Sep-09 21:50:54

Lovely floor envy

They leave it right outside your door?

KG100 have you ever considered that your neighbours may be trying to kill you?

grin

RipMacWinkle Tue 29-Sep-09 21:51:58

Agree with the others. 20 months?!

Look at the proportion of the hall it takes up!

Sheesh. I'd have lost the head long, long before now.

chegirl Tue 29-Sep-09 21:52:32

Put it out by the bins.

Bloody cheek.

smallorange Tue 29-Sep-09 21:54:26

bloody hell! I can't believe they thought it was okay to leave it there! I leave my buggy in communal hallway but it's the size of a football field compared to yours.

amtooyoungforthis Tue 29-Sep-09 21:55:51

I have been following this and I didn't think you were BU in the first place but seeing the photo...omg these people have been taking the piss

I hope you manage to get them to remove it, how have you lived with that outside you front door!!??

norktasticninja Tue 29-Sep-09 21:56:12

That is utterly ridiculous shock

I bet it can be folded, you need the pram huns, here.

paranoidandconfused Tue 29-Sep-09 21:59:06

omg YANBU!!!

lucky1979 Tue 29-Sep-09 22:00:07

Am with everyone else, I can't believe how cheeky they've been! Assumed that it was at least a more square hall with stairs and so on.

I take back any rational, calming suggestions I may have made, if they haven't got rid of it in a week, set fire to the bloody thing.

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 22:01:00
spicemonster Tue 29-Sep-09 22:01:01

shock Oh my good god, that is far, far worse than I had even begun to imagine! I used to have a pram like that. I kept it in my flat and kept it folded and even then it was a pita.

They are total nobbers and you have been far, far too nice for too long

CarGirl Tue 29-Sep-09 22:05:12

shock I am so glad I encouraged you to show us!!!

I thought the hall would have a slightly squarer area.

vickiadele Tue 29-Sep-09 22:10:01

My son was in a fold up when he was 6 months old, YANBU

AvrilH Tue 29-Sep-09 22:10:08

shock yanbu

amtooyoungforthis Tue 29-Sep-09 22:12:02

I think you start an updated thread and put the picture up in the first post, I think all people saying give some slack will be changing their minds now

DandyLioness Tue 29-Sep-09 22:12:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 22:14:12

having lived in scottish tenements that were considerably larger hall.your neighbours were so at it

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 22:16:27
citybranch Tue 29-Sep-09 22:20:36

gasp - have been following this and it is a lot worse than i thought! Would have put up with this a week, max!

bratley Tue 29-Sep-09 22:22:58

Been reading this on and off since you started it on Sunday and now feel I have to join in after seeing the photo! shock
What an absolute piss take! Can't believe anyone would think it's ok to leave a pram like that in a hallway like that
I agree with others, can't understand how you've been so nice about it for so long!

Can you wait a bit longer? Give it to the local kids to push their Guy Fawkes around in on bonfire night!
Can you get your hands on some of your neighbours clothes to 'donate' to the kids for their Guy, too!? grin

Necky buggers.

DandyLioness Tue 29-Sep-09 22:26:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Heated Tue 29-Sep-09 22:29:35

Blimey! They really have being taking the mick.

Maybe link this to Bounty, someone will recognise their communal hallway.

scottishmummy Argentina Tue 29-Sep-09 22:37:16

nope dont do that you have legitimate complaint.dont turn into torch carrying neighbours

Stayingsunnygirl Tue 29-Sep-09 23:34:21

Try this huge pram in tiny hall picture.

I've just read this thread all the way through - the last time I glanced at it, it was only 1 page long!! You've been more than patient, to put up with that for so long - and the fact that his mum bought it is no excuse, frankly - she must have visited the flat or at least know that they live in a first floor flat, so why would she buy them a pram that's so big and difficult to get upstairs.

Unless she hates her dil - but that's a whole other set of threads.....

StayFrosty Tue 29-Sep-09 23:50:26

shock at that picture.

whatafuckingliberty!

Your hall is far too small even for a folded pram imo.

DandyLioness Wed 30-Sep-09 00:01:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumzy Wed 30-Sep-09 06:57:56

What a horrible situation for you and YANBU. I'd reason with them once more to move the pram and if you both can't come to some compromise I'd photocopy and send them the agreement about usage of the commual areas. I don't think you can let this one go as in a years time they'll want to store their dc trikes/bikes, scooters etc there as well.

lobsters Wed 30-Sep-09 07:03:49

They should be grateful they don't live in Bournemouth, there was something on the local news last night that if you leave a pram in a communal stairwell (presumably of council flats, only saw the headlines), then the pram gets siezed and you have to pay £50 to get it back

LifeOfKate Wed 30-Sep-09 07:38:55

Christ, that's a bit snug shock

I wouldn't have wanted that stood in the hallway of my own house, never mind inconveniencing neighbours with it...

diddl Germany Wed 30-Sep-09 07:51:40

I had something that size & never changed to a smaller buggy.

Even folded & on it´s side it still takes up a fair bit of room.

But not impossible to get upstairs!

I wouldn´t have let them keep it in the hall at all!!

arabicabean Wed 30-Sep-09 08:00:47

I've found this thread captivating!
That is a monster of a pram for your hallway, and you have been SO patient for putting up with it.
But I think that you have set a precedent with your neighbours for accepting unreasonable behaviour. Human nature being what it is, I expect there will be more to come from these delightful people.

TwoManyFallsAndYouGetABadScore Wed 30-Sep-09 08:04:47

OMG, you have the patience of a saint to have put up with that outside your door for 20 months.

I haven't read the whole thread but they are being so unreasonable.

Cluckyagain Wed 30-Sep-09 08:11:02

....hmmmm - fire regs come to mind...but then I am extremely sad!

You def need to make sure they stick to it and get rid within the week. What if she gets pg and has 2nd dc, then you're back to square one with new baby, can't manage with stairs and baby. No, you need blanket ban on anything in hallway.

They sound absolutely awful. Poor you for having to live under people like that.

And OMG at the picture. You must let us know when it's gone. Be firm.

20 months you've put up with that? shock

diddl Germany Wed 30-Sep-09 08:53:09

TBH, that hall looks too small to store anything in!

BoffinMum Wed 30-Sep-09 08:54:20

They're shit neighbours.
Best thing to do is move IMO. I did when this happened to me.

BoffinMum Wed 30-Sep-09 08:55:29

Have you told the landlord/freeholder, by the way??

scottishmummy Argentina Wed 30-Sep-09 09:00:19
BoffinMum Wed 30-Sep-09 09:00:27

Actually I know what I would have done, having now looked at the picture. Every day I would fold it up and dump it on the street, or put the thing upside down in the hall. She would have laid into me. I would have laid into her. My husband would have told me off and tried to make the peace. My children would have told me off for being mental. I would have become increasingly obsessed with the whole pram thing and started some kind of legal action whilst secretly defiling the pram in unpleasant ways.

Alternatively I would have taken it to the charity shop while they were on holiday, and claimed to know nothing about it.

Just take out a contract on the bitch and have done with it. grin

BoffinMum Wed 30-Sep-09 09:01:37

Pretend to hurt yourself tripping over it and take out a personal injury action????

scottishmummy Argentina Wed 30-Sep-09 09:07:32

and spend a time getting cautioned for wasting police time

GrendelsMum Wed 30-Sep-09 09:09:52

Bloody hell.

Are they trying to kill themselves?

That really is a serious fire risk - I can't believe that anyone is so stupid as to live in an upstairs flat with a child and purposely block their exit.

That really, really needs to go.

scottishmummy Argentina Wed 30-Sep-09 09:13:17

solicitor letter
fire officer contact, write with photo and call to

Feierabend Wed 30-Sep-09 09:26:09

Nice pram though grin

I had a similar one and stored it in my car boot. They lie if they say they can't. Surely they have travelled with pram & car?

Horton Wed 30-Sep-09 09:33:05

Good god, it's enormous. You are even less unreasonable than I first thought (and I didn't think you were being unreasonable anyway). They're potty. If my mum had bought that for me and I had nowhere to keep it, I'd have said 'Sorry, mum, it's really nice but we're going to have to change it for something else, I'm afraid'.

KIMItheThreadSlayer Wed 30-Sep-09 09:38:21

shock bloody hell, they are taking the piss big time.
You are far better then me about this I would have put it outside and hoped the local totters took it grin

TwoManyFallsAndYouGetABadScore Wed 30-Sep-09 09:38:32

They haven't even got it rearward facing so that can't be their excuse for not getting something smaller that folds easily hmm.

scottishmummy Argentina Wed 30-Sep-09 09:48:38

what is a local totter?

KIMItheThreadSlayer Wed 30-Sep-09 09:50:57

Drive by scrap dealer!
I love mine grin

scottishmummy Argentina Wed 30-Sep-09 09:55:34

ah, didnt know that.never heard that expression

BoffinMum Wed 30-Sep-09 10:27:21

scottishmummy you are far too practical. grin

scottishmummy Argentina Wed 30-Sep-09 10:30:05

local totter to me would be dolly burds eg coleen rooney

mowbraygirl Wed 30-Sep-09 10:58:22

I have also just read in today's Daily Telegraph about the mother with a week old baby left her buggy in communal hallway took baby and shopping up two flights of stairs. Her partner was going to carry it up when he got home in two hours by then council had impounded it on health and safety reasons. They are requiring £50 to get it back will only keep it for 4 weeks and then will dispose it. The buggy cost the couple £350. They say it cannot be stored in the hallway as as you must ensure all fire escapes routes are clear.

mumeeee Wed 30-Sep-09 11:04:25

YANBU. ALL 3 0f my DD's were using a fold up buggy by 6months and in fact you can now get some that can be used from birth.

Nahla Wed 30-Sep-09 11:05:27

shock Didn't think you BU before but had to post after seeing the picture!

Your neighbours are either insane or super heroes. Were they planning on just floating over the pram if there was a fire or something? Is that pram more important than their child's life? angry

I would rather move than live below such lunatics! 20 months?! Some people are just unbelievable...

Stigaloid Wed 30-Sep-09 11:06:29

can you carry itup the stairs and leave it outside their front door?

KIMItheThreadSlayer Wed 30-Sep-09 11:18:29

Wait till November, make a guy, sit it in pram, push pram to local pub, hang penny for the guy sign on pram and hopefully you will raise enough to get them a buggy grin
Of some Friday night drunks will use it to get one of their number home, either way problem solved

did not think you were BU and am 100% convinced after seeing picture shock. Have been following thread avidly though, can't wait to find out what happens when their 'week is up'. good luck

bratley Wed 30-Sep-09 12:42:29

Kimi, you idea stealer! lol grin

ohmeohmy Wed 30-Sep-09 13:36:42

Can you figure out how to fold it up and then leave it upstairs in the hope they won't be able to figure out how to get it up again?

KG100 Wed 30-Sep-09 14:12:46

Good news!

Not sure if it is sold or they just moved it into their flat (possibly they may have come to accept that they might have lost the moral high ground after the folding/non-folding fiasco, although I doubt it) but the incredible folding pram just seems to have disappeared last night. Have to keep opening my front door and double check the hallway but so far no magic reappearance!

So looks like Pramgate is now officially over and the pram has finally gone!

StayFrosty Wed 30-Sep-09 14:15:46

Oh wow, I would go out and do a lap of honour round your hallway grin It must seem massive now without the Brio Behemoth stuck in it.

KG100 Wed 30-Sep-09 14:17:37

Huge

RenderedSpeechless Wed 30-Sep-09 14:21:27

Hi KG100. been absolutely gripped with this thread. Glad you had a positive outcome and admire the dignity and restraint you have shown in dealing with this. hope that you'll stick around on MN.

StayFrosty Wed 30-Sep-09 14:25:23

What RS says; I love threads like this when the OP stays really cool and tells you what happened in the end. Gwan gwan gwan, stay KG, there are loads of lovely lovely non mummies posting on here.

KG100 Wed 30-Sep-09 14:26:24

RenderedSpeechless, I'd love to stick around and have had great fun here over the last few days, but it seems a bit of an indulgence unless I really am a Mummy. (Plus Hubby is going insane as I hog the computer and block the important activity of buying and selling essential golfing equipment on ebay!) But maybe soon we'll think about having a baby (if only to justify the enourmous buggy we will buy and store in the hallway) and then I'll definitely be back!

Horton Wed 30-Sep-09 14:26:53

Oh brilliant. Well done, KG. You should definitely stick around.

MrsGokWantstogocampingagain Wed 30-Sep-09 14:34:59

Wahey!!! that's brilliant news KG.

Please do stick around here, it's an absolute madhouse but great fun.

diddl Germany Wed 30-Sep-09 14:43:43

Glad it´s worked out!

Stigaloid Wed 30-Sep-09 14:46:24

Am so glad it got sorted out for you and hope you do stick around/pop in now and again to say hello

Stayingsunnygirl Wed 30-Sep-09 14:55:15

Ahhh she may say that she's going, but Mumsnet's got it's hooks into KG - mwah ha ha ha ha!!!!!

MrsGokWantstogocampingagain Wed 30-Sep-09 14:56:49

Hmm! Hotel California springs to mind grin

BoffinMum Wed 30-Sep-09 15:02:56

I sense pram escalation here in the event of the OP getting up the duff herself.
Can I suggest unilateral disarmament or, in the event that the OP has ever read the Art of War, going in strong on day 1 with this

Ah, the joys of Pram Porn. The internet has something to everyone's taste, does it not?

needacupoftea Wed 30-Sep-09 15:14:17

Crickey Boffinmum - Pimp my pram or what?! Makes my maclaren feel inferior...

Niknak21 Wed 30-Sep-09 15:31:43

Hooray for you KG

MichKit Wed 30-Sep-09 15:59:52

Look what I read in the paper today. reminded me instantly of your situation.

I've been shock shock after seeing your pic!!

ChilledandHappy Wed 30-Sep-09 17:27:14

Hi KG100 - Jane here! Thought I'd have a read of your thread, I can see how addictive this is!

I still think you should just get pregnant and get an even bigger buggy for the hall!

Alternatively, I'll come round and park my buggy in your hall - maybe I could bring some other mums too, get a hall full of buggies!!

Good to see you the other night, see you soon.

J xx

KG100 Wed 30-Sep-09 17:31:48

ChilledandHappy, bring your NCT class round (with buggies of course) for tea and cakes! Maybe you could buy H a kiddie quad bike and park that too!

KIMItheThreadSlayer Wed 30-Sep-09 19:21:37

Stick around please....you could always join us in chat on the thread killers thread. grin

randomeuro Wed 30-Sep-09 19:29:54

Glad it has worked out for you KG and hope the pram stays away, you have the worst neighbours ever! You were far far too kind to put up with that for so long.

p.s LOL @ Brio Behemoth grin

LifeOfKate Wed 30-Sep-09 20:06:32

Well done KG!! Very happy it seems to be sorted.

That article made me laugh (mean, I know).. the line about her now being housebound due to lack of pram... has the woman never heard of a sling?!?

bratley Wed 30-Sep-09 20:41:30

Yes! Please join the thread killers thread! We always love a new thread killer to join in the chaos deep and meaningful conversation!

Thought of you today KG100, a woman walked past me in town and I thought 'I recognise that pram!' and then found myself looking to see how old her child was!
She had a little tot under one so it can't have been your neighbour! lol

It is true, MN rules your life once you're in! grin

Glad everythings sorted.

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