Thanks for the suggestions

Tried buying ds various substitues, but he's hated all of them ( must say I'm not keen on the idea of substitues, but if it helped him - but it hasn't cos he hates them all) I'll def try the felafel thing.

oh Riven those Felafels sound good, too

will definatelt try those recipes....hmmmm

Ernest adjusting to a veggie diet isn't hard- have a gander around the sections of the supermarket, health food shops- lots of options. My guys for example (not veggie but special diets) love vegetable pate in a tin from the shelf in Asda, all kids of stuff out there- eggs, marmite etc

I used to be a veggie and I really did get ill but my dad wouldnt allow me to have substitue foods (I was 13 when I started, until I was 21) and I had an undiagnosed milk intol which means I dont digest dairy, therefore I was effectively vegan- I also have severe anemia.

DH is an avid emat eater but has gained 4 stone in the past few years (should point out that only makes him 13 stone now, top of OK on the weight chart) and I think I need to eprsuade him away from too much red meat tbh, one step at a time towards mainly veggie-dom, I think- increase fish first

The Human Genome Project has shown that there is a genetic component to ALL cancers, there are environmental triggers but if you do not have the right genes for a particular cancer that you won't get it e.g. the people who smoke 60 a day for 50 years and never get lung cancer.
The lack of cancers in smallrural communities is most likely genetic because they have a very small gene pool (don't travel, lots of ntermarriage etc). These kind of things come up in the news (i.e. communities that seem to have small incidences of cancer) from time to time but the general view in the scientific community is the key is inthe genes not the diet.
I hate the way things like this kind get hyped out of all proportion e.g. Red meat eaters will all die of cancer. Scientifically it doesn't make much sense..

Onion, garlic, and ginger sweated, then add any fresh and/or frozen veg, pre cooked lentils and cook slowly, stirring regularly, in a covered wok with a tin of plum tomatoes and some bouillon for liquid.

Put the cooked felafels in an ovenproof dish and pour the sauce over them before cooking slowly again in the oven. The felafels keep their shape but absorb the flavours of the tomatoey sauce. The sauce is different each time I make it depending what goes into it.

It also makes a great pizza base topping, and works just as well with vegan sausages.

Meridien do a great sun dried tomato jar of sauce that can also be added to your own ingredients, and Cauldron felafels also work well if you don't make your own.

'Baked felafels in homemade tomato and veg sauce with wholemeal pasta and green salad.'

recipe please. I do make felafel (chickpeas, onion, garlic, cumin, breadcrumbs in a blneder) but the pasta sauce sounds good.

I'd be interested in reading the China Study...

me, embarking on this new lifestyle, sounds great

So... who would be interested in reading The China Study? It is a great read.

<<Puts down the latest Penny Vincenzi >>

My 9 yr old ds has decided about a month ago he wants to be vege. I'm supportive, but dh is against. Biggest issue is if we go out, often the veg food on offer he really hates (not a cheese fan) then dh gets angry with him. Also not sure what to give him as packed lunch. If nuts are major protein source, but not supposed to send nuts to school...? Any ideas?

Actually, being supportive of him has meant that I've not cooked meat for 3 weeks or so. I can see me also becoming vege as a result of ds. I've thought for a long time I'd like to cut down on the amount of meat we eat.

Earlier comments linking red meat/animal protein with cancer,,, I remember reading a study ages ago of a population study of a remote island, and there were very low incidences of disease, cancer being unheard of, and while they did eat fish, they had no red meat, very high amounts of vegetable, but also a quite low calorie diet. The amount we eat, and our portion sizes is madness (she says with ritz crackers and haribo combo )

This thread has made me hungry now. I've been veggie for nearly 20 years and have never had a problem with anaemia or any other deficiency.

It's strange but the whole breastfeeding thing has made me seriously think about becoming vegan. I always just had milk without thinking much about it, or where it came from, but the idea of giving DS cow's milk instead of human milk makes me feel a bit queasy. It's made me re-evaluate my own diet as well.

littlerach
I know you do...but, pst....I know I said it several times...the recipe was not my idea, it was in SW cookbook....I daren't take credit here...I might get sued by original maker upper

I can vouch for fairLady's chickpeas - it is delicious

oh, that does sound yum....I hearyt chickpeas...if interested...I have a lurvely recipe for Moorish chickpeas...

Mash up chickpeas, parsley, garlic, cumin to buggery, pat into balls, fry... I think. I made some recently. They were excellent, but very fall-apart-y. Crumbly. Yum.

deadflesh - odd name - your menu sounds great except your breakfast <boak>

how do you make falafel???

Veagn for six months and never felt better.

Today's menu

Breakfast: Stewed prunes and a banana

Lunch: Baked felafels in homemade tomato and veg sauce with wholemeal pasta and green salad.

Dinner: Mushrooms, pak choi, onion, garlic, ginger steamed stirfry with mixed seeds, steamed fresh sweetcorn on the cob, homemade potato salad(made with vegan mayo) and hummus. Soya chocolate pud for desert.

I've been vegan for over 10 years. I was vegan throughout my pregnancy and breastfed DD till she was 18 months. I run half marathons and do triathlons, I train 4 or 5 days a week. Being vegan, for me is part of my routine, it means cooking healthy balanced meals (from scratch most of the time!)

I went through a vegetarian phase in my early twenties, and after about a year fell of the wagon....went home, nice bbq and I have always loved Bratwurst, so, had one or possibly two....felt rather ill afterwards...it didn't stop me going back to my meat eating ways though....but I tarted with fish then and chickenbreast...

the hormone/ab thing with cows is something I have pondered over, ever since reading that there is a school of thought that that might have to do with the earlier physical development, especially since the whole milk push...no idea if there is any truth in it....

do you? dd1 tried meat at 13 as her rebellion and didn't mention any issues. It may just have been one MacDonalds, I don't really know.

maynotbeperfect I think you actually lose the ability to digest meat easily after a long time being vegetarian so you body probably would stop craving it after a "detox" period I would think.

'Raising animals for food requires lots more land than growing crops. That's because animals eat a lot more food than they provide as meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef.(293) That's 94% more land. And 94% more pesticides. All told, livestock eat 70% of all the grain we produce.(292) They're food factories in reverse.

Grass-fed beef isn't a solution, because that requires even more land per unit of meat. And since the amount of land we have is fixed, what that really means is less meat. By going grass-fed, we'd have less meat, but still use just as much land. Animals are grain-fed because we can feed more animals that way.

And make no mistake, there are a lot of them. More chickens are killed in the U.S. every year than there are people in the world (7.6 billion chickens vs. 6 billion people).(240) There are more than one billion head of cattle on the planet today, which weigh twice as much as the human population.(291) Thinking that all those cattle can easily be grass-fed is just a fantasy.'

Water is problematic for meat production too
here

I had a massive alergic reaction to quorn mince - needless to say i wont be trying any quorn stuff again. It had soya in it too, so im avoiding that too.

Tinker, i dont think you made it up - and that is actually a very good point. Ive thought about this too. The thought coming from, that you would need to grow more veg to sustain everyone as a veggie. Therefore you need more space to grow, right conditions etc. But animals have to eat, so they eat a vast amount of food so i guess it would cancel itself out.

I would probably eat organic free range meat if i could afford it. However i am starting to consider the health benefits of not eating meat now.

Interestingly, after about a month as a veggie, i am starting to actually not WANT meat - i thought it would be a big issue. I am however finding it more expensive, must be doing something wrong.

That is pretty outrageous madlentileater you would think that they would realise that if someone is using soy formula there is a good chance they are doing it for vegetarian reasons.

btw, when DS1 was a baby...(ages ago) he had a few bottles of soya formula....when we checked the ingredients later it had BEEF FAT in it!!!

land use thing- it's much more efficient use of most agricultural land to grow veg than meat. Hence, as far as I understand, there is enough land to fed vegetarians. However, there are some places (like uplands, and salt marsh) that can't be made productive for food, unless by grazing, so there is an argument for occassional meat eating- in ths ocuntry anyway.

How very self hating of you Princess. I love livejournal, the people there are just so excitable.

I do remember that the argument was started by this horrible incident and it kicked off when someone asked why she didn't breastfeed the baby because surely that was OK for vegans. It went mental from there.

Would like to add that I am sure the overwhelming majority of vegans think breastfeeding is the perfect solution because human milk for human babies is a very vegan way of thinking and that these two were nutters.

I'd be interested to read it too, Morloth, if you find the link. Livejournal is an odd place, I miss it

I once got rejected from a feminist group because I'd used the word bitch once

Thanks Riven. I know about the green arguments for going veggie (cows farting, land used to grow animal feed etc) but is that land enough to grow crops to feed a wholly veggie population?

there's quorn, which I don't like and is highly processed but is high in protein.
have you tried tofu bacon? I put it in the MN recipes. I don't bother about protein really but I can see if you're doing a very physical job you might need it.

I will dig Riven, it was over a year ago though and I no longer have a paid account. These posters were proper crazy though, I was sure they were trolls but apparently long term members.

'Not read whole thread but is it not right that the planet could not sustain everyone becoming veggie? Not sure whether I've read that or made it up.'

Its the other way round. If all land was used for plant based food 10 billion people could have enough to eat. Animal based food is very inefficient. If the developing world decided to eat like we do with out meat heavy diet the planet is fucked.

have you got a link so I can go mock see?

What about the TVP Cory? DH cycles 10 miles a day at speed on vegan food. We tend to live on stirfries and curries though.

I meant ingredients that you could base a main dish around iyswim; I could probably find the recipes if I had a better idea where to look

have lots of vegetarian cookery books but tbh they seem stronger on starters and light lunches than on meals for heavy work

lentils are good, anything else I should be looking for?

It was on the livejournal freegan site.

I have never ever come across a vegan who wouldn't breastfeed. Just googled and cant find anything about it either. No whacky sites claiming breastfeeding isn't vegan. Not one.

Princess the crazies in question were advocating soy formula.

Riven I don't think vegan means not exploiting animals I think it means not eating any animal products regardless of the happiness of the animals in question.

If

Not read whole thread but is it not right that the planet could not sustain everyone becoming veggie? Not sure whether I've read that or made it up.

I'm guessing those sorts wouldn't swallow then
<lowers the tone>

how does bf exploit animals?

Of BFing is unacceptable - what do those sort of extreme vegans do because formula is, uh, cow's milk

I'm not sure Morloth cos my hens aren't exploited. But I'll concede the once every 6 months milk in tea would park me in the vegetarian camp. But if I said 'I'm vegetarian' people might assume I ate cheese/dairy without any problem and serve them up. Hence I tend to say vegan so I don't get a cheese omlette.

How is your DH with whole grains Cory? I had IBS for several years (lentils still do it) but am fine with brown rice, barley and qinoa. Nuts and eggs maybe?
I've forgotten the protein needs but think its about 60g a day for men?

I don't know if you mean recipes cory but I know use a whey protein supplement drink after workouts. It is veggie but not vegan.

Now that we've got all you veggies assembled here, could you be so kind and recommend some good protein for my dh who has IBS and cannot digest chickpeas and struggles with most beans (can just about manage lentils)?

Am keen to extend our vegetarian eating, but whenever anything upsets him it makes him ill for days. (fried meat is the worst but beans not far behind)

Nuts obviously good, but expensive if you are thinking of main courses. Also, will be cooking this summer for family that includes nut allergic.

Any other thoughts (preferably not tofu)? He does heavy manual work so needs a fair bit of sustenance.

mmmm lovely pus!

Yes jemart that is exactly what happens.

Riven you eat eggs and occasional dairy so I am afraid that makes you a vegetarian as opposed to a vegan - clearly as an omnivore I mean no slight by saying that.

Our cats have Royal Canin cat biscuits for persians. Have had Hills in the past, very good stuff.
Whiskas/ felix et al is the feline equivalent of Mcdonalds.

pus is a collection of white blood cells and bacterial debris. Nice!!

I almost vomit every time I think of the pus thing.

they still do get mastitis but pus is just dead cells. If you eat meat why would dead cells bother you

cats can live on a vegan diet but they have to have a supplement that you can buy. Doesn't stop the buggers going out and killing small furry things mind. Mine get Hills Science diet because its quality meat products rather than crap recovered meat in a tin. But thats cos diet = health for animals too. When I had a dog she had vegeratrian dog food because it was better than the crap ina tin stuff plus fresh deer meat from roadkill and culling (we knew someone who did this)
Animals like cats and dogs eat meat. But make it decent food not crap in a tin.

My DP told me that shineon - but hey, whats a bit of pus between friends <boak>. I was a bit about that though, as they pump the cows full of anti biotics so they shouldnt be getting mastitis anyway. Thinking on that, i'll take the pus over the anti biotics any day.

'Being a full vegan requires you to pretty much think constantly about what you are wearing/eating/doing and I find it utterly consumes people.'

I don't think its does. I cook vegan food and hardly have to think about it. Tonight, if I get off my arse, we're having vegetable curry, brown rice and chappatis. maybe a salad cos there's lots growing in the garden. Rhubarb and apple crumble I made earlier. Clothes - I loathe shopping and rarely do it so its a once a year think. Shoes - again its rare I buy any and non-leather is easily available now. Walking boots take more thought but for good boots you should be givingit lots of thought anyhow.
Honestly, it rarely enters my head.

Very cross that any vegan would be so cruel as to feed cats on soya protein.
Its basically starvation, the poor mogs will eventually die from malnutrition.

I recall an anti milk thingy where it stated that there is a teaspoonful of pus for every pint of milk or something.

Put me right off milk, for sure.

I encountered a special kind of crazy that day FairLady

If we were to tie ourselves absolutely in knots about the eitical side of food. We would only ever eat veggies we grew ourselves. But then, we are putting farmers out of business and thats bad for the economy.

I don't like the dairy industry, but i just know i couldnt become a vegan.

its very hard to be protein deficient imaynotbeperfect. You'd have to live on just chips and coke cos protein is in wholemeal bread, wholemeal pasta, grains etc etc. Iron and folate can be a problem if you don't eat leafy green vegetables and all of us should be eating those for health anyway, meat eater or vegan. Some things can inhibit iron absorption - I read dairy can - and some things help it like vit c.

You can get plenty of protein (as long as you are not doing extreme exercise) from pulses/cheese/eggs etc.

Green leafy veg is excellent for iron, folate I am not sure about. Bananas are pretty much the perfect fuel and I understand that you can actually survive solely on them - though I wouldn't recommend it!

Morloth am at vegans not bf for that reason...

For me it comes down to 'need' rather than want. I don't need to eat animals or animal products. I can be perfectly healthy without exploiting animals. but dd2 is on the ketogenic diet and its almost impossible to do without dairy. She can't be ehalthy without the diet and therefore animal products (she is veggie) so I have to put her health first and just try and minismise the unethical stuff like only get organic free range milk/cheese/cream.

I love honey

I am very new to this, and i have to admit i am struggling. I THINK we eat healthily but i do worry about iron and folate. Also, protein.

I don't imaynotbeperfect and I think people who do are irrational and slightly mental!

Being a full vegan requires you to pretty much think constantly about what you are wearing/eating/doing and I find it utterly consumes people. I have even heard vegans arguing that breastfeeding was unacceptable because it involved an animal product and feeding their cats who are obligate carnivores soya protein instead of meat.

I think veganism is mainly about exploitation of animals. So eggs from your own rescued hens would be ethical to many. Milk wouldn't be unless you were prepared to keep and raise the calves as milk only happens because the animal was pregnant. Wool from happy sheep would be ok I guess if they were sheared at the start of the summer heat (this doesn't always happen. I've seen frozen to death sheep )

imaynotbeperfect- the best thing you can do for your kids is a vegetarian diet- although it is tres tricky to get the balance right. Think Riven advised the Vegetarian Society- is very good.

imay...what Morloth said...

Riven, I am sure it is...but I simply dislike the taste....although, for a little while I tried it (last year/the year before...when I was a mad Jason Vale follower...but in the end, the real milk won...
but I know most things you can get used too...

Its mainly because I don't like it but most vegans would talk about the exploitation of bees and the fact that farms (bees are often factory farmed) kill the Queens and the hives every year or so.
I don't like honey so its never come up as an issue.

but where do you draw the line morloth? Bees probably don't rate so high on my list when it comes to animal welfare. After all, they are nurtured by the bee keeper, aren't they? I find that a little odd. I did note that riven just thinks its yucky (i totally agree).

fruitbeard, your post made me giggle. The straw that broke the camels back for DP becoming veggie, was travelling ina traffic jam for two hours next to a lorry full of cows. He said that he just couldn't be part of that any more. The thing is, they were fresian cows and fresian cows = dairy cows. I didn't have the heart to put him right. .

I feel healthier for not eating meat. We have conceded to organic free range chicken once a week, but not enjoyed it so we probably wont have it again.

vegans don't eat honey because it is an animal by product maynotbeperfect.

soya milk is better than it used to be. 20 years ago it was minging.

why don't you eat honey Riven? I read that on a website the other day that some vegans don't eat honey - i have to admit to being a bit about that.

imaynotbeperfect, the vegetarian society has some great info on veggie children. You can be perfectly health on a veggie diet. All 4 of my kids are vegan or veggie and the 3 older ones are healthy teenagers now and have always been vegan/veggie.

well...you seem very rational to meNot that my "judement" is of any importance anyway, lol...I mena, I know that.......

If it was just me, I could easily be a vegetarian, I think.....but with dh and Kids, it's impossible as it is to find stuff everyone eats, lol...

I don't think I could be vegan though....and if only for the fact that I like milk more than soyamilk....however, I am under no illusion that milk is something I need to live or that is healthy, I am aware it isn't healthy nor necessary

its to do with how hens are treated and even with organic free range hens, all their brothers were gassed/crushed in the hatchery as they are an unwanted by product.
Mine are ex battery so I might as well use their eggs because they lay them whatever you do.

When I use the word vegan I mean someone who uses NO animal products whatsoever, so Riven under that definition you are not a rational vegan just a perfectly normal vegetarian.

So my statement of not having met a rational vegan stands.

heres a question - we are new veggies. But i worry that DD not having meat is bad for her, but if its bad for her??

I tend to cook her some chicken a couple of times a week

lot of vegans don't eat right but nor do those who eat meat. It is rare to see a fat vegan though although now you can get organic vegan junk food its becoming more common. When I was first vegan over 20 years ago there wasn't even vegan chocolate. I actually had to eat healthily although chips are vegan
Bad skin is found all all sorts of people and is generally to do with not enough water, fruit and vegetables.

Riven- what is the rationale behind vegans not eating eggs?

I don't eat eggs as I hate them.

Veganism is ultra difficult to adhere to and it really is more of a lifestyle choice that vegetarianism. My teacher at school- vegan- was just so ill looking with terrible skin.

Raw foods only is supposed to be good. But slightly bonkers. Or maybe fruitarianism. (sp)

I do allow milk in tea when out but don't go out And I do ask for soya milk. Most places have it now but if I'm at a friends house and they put milk in my tea I don't refuse to drink it. I know some vegans would but its in there now and not drinking it isn't going to save the cow.
Don't wear leather or wool or eat honey. I don't wear wool cos it makes me itch but I don't have any ethical objections to happy sheep having their coats sheared off . Leather I wouldn't wear cos cows need their skins to keep their innards in and honey is just yucky.
I do eat eggs sometimes that come out of my own hens bottoms. They lay them whatever I do and it seems silly to throw them away.
So now I don't know what I am!
I agree some vegans are a bit irrational but so are some meat eaters.
Like I said its not a health choice for me (if it was I'd manage 5 a day of fruit n veg but some days you just want chocolate )

Riven are you vegetarian though or vegan?

I thought you said you will drink milk in tea when out Riven? That alone sets you into a completely different rationality than the other vegans I met.

Do you eat honey? Wear leather? Wool? etc.

Warning - convoluted argument that makes sense in my head but probably not when written down ahead:

I can't be a vegetarian because the only reason I have for being veggie would be animal welfare, and milk production is as bad if not worse in terms of animal welfare, so I'd have to be vegan.

And I can't do vegan. I tried for six months and ate properly and everything.... still felt like shit and quite frankly never wanted to see another chickpea for the rest of my life at the time! So now I do my utmost to eat organic meat or not at all.

Healthiest I've ever felt in my life was when doing pure Atkins - red meat, creamy sauces and loads of green leafy veg.

I'm rational Morloth.

Well to be fair Riven, jemart didn't say that every vegan was ill, just that the ones she has met have looked ill.

TBH I am yet to encounter a fully rational vegan myself. I am sure they must exist but I haven't met one. Know stacks of perfectly average veggies but it seems to me that something happens to people when they start thinking that deeply about food.

I am tired of the vagn = ill myth.
Vegan atheletes...
* Sally Eastall, marathon runner
* Keith Holmes, former world champion middleweight boxer
* Carl Lewis, winner of nine Olympic Gold Medals and one of the greatest athletes of the twentieth century
* Martina Navratilova, champion tennis player - one of the most successful tennis players in history
* Dave Scott, six-time Ironman Champion and first inductee into the Ironman Hall of Fame
* Lucy Stephens, triathlete

Anyone can have a shit diet. Meat eaters who eat burgers and chips and chcolate have a shit diet despite the meat.

Every vegan I have ever met looked ill.
Agree that reducing meat consumption is a good idea, quality over quantity.

I think you can get everything you need from a vegetarian diet (not so sure about vegan TBH) but you have to work much harder at it than if you also eat meat.

I've been a veggie 25 years and have no problem with iron. So red meat obviously isn't vital.

Riven, that was what I was trying to put across in my post...somewhere on this page

it's all well saying they don't die of cancer...but like you say....how can this be known as fact...

Haem iron is also a particular kind of iron that's important to us that we only get from red meat

<wanders off to dig up more info>

'lacking in iron unless they aate no vegetables at all'

The iron in vegs. is not as easily absorbed. A menstruating woman can quickly develop a lack of iron if she doesn't take care.

I haven't read "The China Study" yet, however, wondering how does the author conclude that rural Chinese farmers do not get cancer?
They die like everybody else and life expectancy is below of that of western countries. How many autopsies are conducted to determine the actual cause of death? How many of elderly or sick people ever see a doctor in their life?
I have spent considerable time in SE Asia and rural China. Professional medical help is rather sparse.

there's iron in leafy green veg so vegetarians wouldn't be lacking in iron unless they aate no vegetables at all. Which some do. my brother seems to exist on pizza and coke.
As I said earlier, I don't eat meat because of ethics and environment.

what about haem iron ? We only get that from red meat, don't we?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly a meat fan, I prefer veggie style meals. But I think that it's everything in moderation and actually there are also BENEFITS to eating red meat. NOt just from the protein element IYSWIM

If you eat red meat, you need to make sure you eat lots of fruit and veg too.
But eating red meat is nothing in comparison with smoking, drinking and being obese.
Smoking, drinking and obesity are proven causes of cancer.

And another for "I didn't read the whole thread and I realise I've said exactly what everyone else has been saying in an effort to sound eruidite and informed"

We need an emoticon for, 'I said this about six hours ago, pay attention.'

that's what I said, Slug! <no-one listens to me emoticon>

I'm guessing its 'too much meat' pointy.

only read op, but I would be very sirprised if animal protein was the biggest cause of cancer

I often wonder why she thinks the people she is hassling are the ones who need to re-evaluate their live's.

Morloth - Nooooooooooooooooooo!

With a permanent cat's bum face!

Morloth - a wee shrunken (judgemental) hag for the rest of my long life aaaargh!

By Morloth: "personally I would rather have 50 years of red meat, chocolate and wine than 80 years of lentils".

Amen sister!!!

Grendels - Oh, cheer it on!

shineon...but how long do those chinese farmers live? Do they live to a real old age?because if htey don't then it's difficult to come to that conclusion...

It does appear at a quick glance that the book The China Study does not necessarily present a totally fair and accurate portrait of the original peer-reviewed research paper on which it appears to be based. This suggests that perhaps it is unreasonable to take the book as evidence that the best way to improve your health is to cut down on meat, although I agree that the original paper does seem to have some intriguing findings.

On the other hand, I'm all in favour of people substantially cutting down on the amount of both meat and animal products in general that they consume, and making sure that what they do eat is of the highest quality and welfare standards. So maybe I should be cheering the book on?

LOL PortBlacksandResident that is pretty much how I feel about it. Can you imagine a life like that? Imagine living forever and being just like Gillian McKeith.

I didn't see the other ' In The News' thread. Apologies if I have kinda re hashed it..

port -

Slug - that's very interesting, thanks..

"Something to do with rural Chinese farmers..they do not get cancer"

at this as an explanation. Cancer is typically a disease of old(er) age. Childhood cancers are mercifully rare and, apart from lifestyle cancers like lung and cervical, the disease is more common in people in their 60s and older. Currently the life expectancy for someone born in China is 73. However, this is for someone born now. The life expectancy has been rapidly increasing, but rural life expectancy is still 4 - 5 years less than urban life expectancy. So Chinese farmers may well be expected to die before they reach the age where cancer becomes a significant factor.

If you don't smoke, drink, eat fat, salt and sugar and avoid red meat you won't live longer.........


........it will just feel like it .

Joke Archive - Approx 1976 told by a man in a shiny suit and bad teeth.

Jumente - I don't believe in converting people though... just can't do it, although am happy when someone says they are going to give it a go! I believe in choice. I would LOVE someone to give me some inspirational food ideas though as I am firmly stuck in the Quorn fillet cycle of vegetarianism!

I also think that The China Study - although a scary looking tome - is written in layman's terms and WOULD inspire people to stop eating meat.

Dittany linked on the other thread Riven. Quite disgusting really.

Shineon you're welcome - I just wouldn't want you to do the cause any damage, by putting forward incompletely thought out ideas/arguments.

It does affect me personally atm which makes me sensitive to people's possibly insensitive comments.

Fwiw I agree with your premise but would prefer to see it put in context, with loads of research and links to back it up. That way there might be a chance of enlightening/inspiring a few people to become veggie. But that's not your desire anyway with this thread, so will leave you to it

Riven, ah, but I do think about it. It makes sense to me - although of course smoking,drinking etc are far bigger threats..

Quorn is a man made protein and it is basically a funfus that they grow specifically. Made me want to hurl when I read about it.. I have stopped reading about it for now!

I think meat just ups your chances. But then so lots of things. And other things lower it.
It'll make your head boggle if you think about it.

How is qourn made then?

I eat a lot of Quorn, but have recently discovered exactly how it is made and it does put me off. I would struggle to eat ANYTHING though if I didn't eat Quorn...

Jumente - I wasn't trying to present any kind of 'theory' by saying my Mum had cancer, eats red meat etc.. more that the experiences of the past year have got me thinking.

Just musing it out loud, saying it interests me and what I believe. Never did I say that anyone who eats meat will get cancer and everyone who doesn't, won't.

But thanks for your input.

I'd be surprised if no rural Chinese farmer ever had contracted cancer. What's their life expectancy? Maybe they just die young i.e. before the age at which cancer becomes common.

At any rate, correlation isn't the same as cause and effect.

I'll second that Quorn is gross. In the highly unlikely event of me becoming a vegetarian I think I'd choose to avoid all vegetarian/vegan substitutes for meat and dairy.

They're all incredibly unpleasant imho.

I think the main reason for the increase in cancer rates we have seen is that we no longer die as often of other things. Either people have to die or we need to stop having babies. It is the way it goes.

Surely just a healthy diet is the way to go from a health point of view? A healthy diet involving meat is going to be better for you than an unhealthy vegetarian diet. I hardly think the meat is the clinching factor, TBH.

Maybe meat does cause cancer, but most things do. Life causes death. That's just the way it is.

Qourn is pretty vile and stupidly expesmive.
I remember liking meat but just cant get over the guilt about animals and the environment.

It was a straightforward question Shineon... Ok then, if it's in this section, ya completely bu.

Your reasons for thinking what you do are various and I cannot argue with some research I haven't seen, or a book I haven't read - though both sound interesting. However the facts you give - your mother had cancer, she is now Ok, plus she eats a lot of red meat - don't really add up to any kind of theory.

There are all sorts of people with cancer - it happens to one in three of us I think.

I do think that's a contentious thing to say therefore, it makes no one feel better - meat eaters, well it's obviously their fault if they get ill and vegans/vegetarians with cancer, what do you say to them?

I would sooner chew my own arm off shineon I tasted Quorn once, not an experiences I am looking to repeat. There definitely are vegetable protein sources, but none of them are as efficient and I prefer eating meat.

I think that is what it boils down to really. Some people simply prefer to eat meat, they have all the info and still have a preference for meat. It tastes good, it feels good in your mouth and it nourishes you quickly and well. Too much of anything is a bad idea.

vegan mozzarrella is ok on pizzas but generally vegan cheese smells and taste like old socks. I'm vegan indoors but wont make a fuss over milkin tea outside. I don't eat dairy cheese though can it makes my tummy hurt.

I didn't go vegan cos of health though.

Quorn fillet, Morloth??

Morloth - some friends of mine say the same - that without meat they just wilt and that no vegetarian alternative will touch it.

Jumente - No reason why I can't post where I like. And no controversy - my opening post is hardly controversial is it? My view point - just seeing if anyone else agrees with me...

You have to die of something.

You may well be right, but personally I would rather have 50 years of red meat, chocolate and wine than 80 years of lentils (though I quite like lentils as well).

I work out a LOT, I use animal protein as the quickest most efficient means of protein synthesis to repair my muscles. Yes, there are other vegetarian sources of protein, but none are as quick or effective in my experience. My body is quite clear on what it wants and what it wants is flesh.

Each to their own, I can't see the militant vegans getting their way (as in the end of animal production) any time soon soon, so I don't give a toss what people want to eat, why they want to eat it and how it affects them.

If you want to live on a diet of coke and chips, then enjoy yourself, but don't whine about the effects later. Same for veggies who get sick because they don't ensure they get enough iron/protein whatever floats your boat but don't whine and don't try to convince me to change.

WHY is this in Aibu? Are you trying to be controversial, or contentious? I don't get it, sorry - I think it could have been worded far better and thus included more people's points of view.

Btw I speak as a pro vegetarian and sometime vegan who doesn't like arguments.

<shudders at the mention of vegan cheese> I think I'd rather go without.

Vegan cheese is an acquired taste but there are so many meals that are naturally vegan and don't demand cheese.

Like I said, I tried it, but found it just too hard to keep to. I am not keen on Soya yogurts and detest Vegan cheese..unless it has vastly improved over the years? People also expressed amazement at what a freak I was when I was vegan! That didn't bother me and I would just laugh, but it was bloody hard to find stuff to eat!

I do think it's a good idea to eat less meat, but I don't think I believe that it's the most important step one can take to improve one's health. I suppose it depends on the individual.

I love vegetables and as a rule I'd rather leave meat on my plate than vegetables, and I don't eat red meat very often, having approximately 3 vegetarian dinners per week, but I'd never become a vegetarian.

I feel much "cleaner" inside as a vegan.

Very interesting info

There is protein in whole grains, also pulses, and a combination of thetwo provides a "complete" protein.
And yes nuts, as LR said.

There's some protein in most things, including vegetables. Protein deficiency is very rarely an issue here even if you are a vegan.

As for good sources, tofu, beans,nuts, lentils,quinoa etc.

Nuts?
I htink there is protein in quite a lot of veg and grains, like cous cous.

But what the hell do you eat for protein as a Vegan?

I was a vegetarian for about 15 years, during which time I was always overweight, ate far too much cheese and peanut butter.....

I'd go for a moderation in all things....
red wine is good for preventing some diseases, but buckets of the stuff every day will cause others...
The Japanese may well have a very low rate of breast cancer, but they have the highest rates of stomach cancer- (due to eating lots of pickled/smoked things apparently)

I think the secret if you want to eat meat and fish, is to eat it less often, but of a better quality.

kathy - put like that, it isn't. If someone is a big drinker or has a 60 a day habit, then yes, of course the biggest benefit to their health would be to stop.

I was going to type something similar to what
kathyis6incheshigh said, but she did it sooner and better.

Everyone's different.

I was vegan for years and pretty healthy. You just have to eat plenty of fruit n veg and not much crap. Like any other diet!

He can't have been eating properly then.

Vegans who eat well glow. It can be a challenge if you miss certain foods.

"am I being unreasonable to think that that biggest thing you can do to improve your health is to cut down on meat? "

Surely it depends on what your lifestyle is like already?
The biggest thing my dad could do is to cut down on booze because he has way too much of that. Other people need to eat more vegetables. I agree that most people in this culture eat more meat than is good for them, but that's not the same as saying it's the most important thing for everyone.

Glad I knocked the smoking on the head 3 years ago!

tooticky - tried vegan once. Couldn't do it.

When I was at school, my music teacher was a Vegan, and a really militant one at that. He was ill with it though. He would tape up his sleeves so noone could see the terrible condition of his skin.

Some omnivores live on pizza and coke.

yes, half of all smokers will die of something smoking related. Scary stuff!

Riven - exactly. A vegetarian diet is very hard to get right. But I think it is the healthiest way to eat. Shame I am more on the pizza eating side of the fence..

Vegan even better than veggie...

sheeta.. I know what you're saying, and of course, smoking 60 a day means that all the bets are off..

a veggie diet can be healthy but some vegggies live on pizza and coke. Thats not healthy.

I'm sure all the people that proved tobacco to be the biggest health risk of the 21st century would love this thread

I knew about the dairy link to cancer (especially breast cancer) too - in Japan breast cancer is more rare than in the west, and apparently this is due to low consumption of dairy products.

abraid - Yes, a few of my friends say the same - that they feel ill when they try and cut down on red meat. The vegetarian diet is a hard one to get right.

The China Study thingy book is quite fascinating. The author has proved - almost to the point of no doubt, but not quite - that it is animal protein that causes cancer, not lifestyle, not being overweight, not a lack of exercise etc etc. He does, however, include dairy products in this. Something to do with rural Chinese farmers..they do not get cancer.

As someone who has suffered with both folate (and B12) anaemia I can tell you that I will not be adopting a meat-free diet.

A once or twice a week piece of beef makes me feel a lot better. Especially during a period.

Food-wise, I think you have a point. I guess too much of anything is bad for you though, including meat. I personally think red meat should be eaten once a month, max.

I believe the fruit and veg thing to be more important.

Apparently not, according to research. Tobacco and alcohol abuse obviously. Healthy weigh and exercise, no.

Not sure about "the biggest thing" - after tobacco, alcohol, healthy weight, more exercise maybe....

Would like to start by saying that although I AM a vegetarian of some 20 years standing, I am NOT a militant, banging-on-about-it, trying to convert people to my cause type of vegetarian! I am happy to buy and cook meat for my children, happy to prepare it, happy to sit and watch people eat it. I just don't eat it- or fish - myself. I don't fit the stereotype that some have of a veggie at all.

However, I have recently read a book called 'The China Study,' plus read some research, which shows ( not quite proves, but not far off .. ) that the biggest cause of cancer is animal protein. This is a subject close to my heart as my Mum had Ovarian cancer last year ( has an all clear now, long may it continue.. )and is a red meat eater - approximately 3 times a week.

I am a useless vegetarian as don't eat pulses/relevant proteins/beans etc.. but am I being unreasonable to think that that biggest thing you can do to improve your health is to cut down on meat?