I couldn't find any sympathy either MissM.

Xenia - did you post that article as a joke? Seriously, my heart bleeds. Downgrade from Eton to a 'local selective day school'??? There are people out there affected by the recession who can barely afford to buy food let alone let their personal cook go. What a load of old **

It depends what kind of selection you have. I wouldn't want to go back to the crude segregation at 11+, but surely there needs to be some acknowledgement of the fact that different kinds of pupils need different kinds of education. And that doesn't mean the pupils whose parents can pay or pray.

I just wish we could all be as structured an prepared in life as Quattrocento appears to be. Sadly, life ain't like that! I think it's a bit sad to rule out some careers (more creative ones, perhaps) because they will probably not be lucrative.

From this weekend's FT... [ and for the record I think she's wrong and should have kept the children at the schools to which they were used - the oldest boy was at Eton and I think the one being pulled out after one year]

The choice that no parent wants to make

By Mrs Moneypenny

Published: July 4 2009 00:38 | Last updated: July 4 2009 00:38

“Vale, heroum filii.” I hate saying goodbye, even in Latin. It is hard wrenching yourself away from a place where you feel at home, where the buildings are familiar, the teachers are supportive, you have lots of friends and where you believe you have been part of a pre-eminent educational establishment. And that’s just how you feel as a parent. Imagine how your child must feel.

Because Moneypenny plc has not been immune to the recession, the cost centres are about to become the reduced cost centres. Managing a business is one long risk-assessment exercise, and the question CEOs have been asking themselves in this recession is: what are the risks of continuing to spend at current levels while revenue plummets? Finance departments have been modelling and remodelling to show what would happen if sales fell to 2006 levels, or worse. Running a family is just the same – what are the risks if bonuses and dividends are not forthcoming for the next few years? In our case it would have meant that CC#2 might well have had to come out of school halfway through his GCSE syllabus, and changing school at that point is very tough. So we decided to eliminate that risk by removing him from his senior boarding school after only a year and sending him to the local selective day school. And his younger brother is coming out of his heinously expensive prep school and being sent back to the local village school where he started his education.

CC#1 is not immune from all this; he is off to university this autumn and we have combined cost management with a revised incentive scheme. We will not pay his fees, so he will have to take out a loan. But if he returns after three years with the same class of degree as me, or better, we will write him a cheque to cover the fees.

These are all significant changes, and, like the ones I oversaw at the office earlier this year, they were undertaken with a heavy heart and, I admit, more than a few tears. At the board meeting to discuss the restructuring (at our dinner table) Mr M advanced argument after argument for continuing to outsource the CCs to boarding school (what we have done for one we ought to do for the others etc etc). But in this economic environment, there are no sacred cows, and while I agree that CC#2 was getting what is probably the best education money can buy, was it really going to deliver him a three times better result in life than the next best alternative? Because, make no mistake, it costs three times as much. I also realised that most of the reasons that Mr M and I felt so sad about CC#2 in particular were on our own account, not his. We have felt privileged to co-parent and educate our children in a historic school with fantastic teaching staff. It is very sad to have to say goodbye.

But CC#2 is a diligent and ambitious student, who will succeed wherever he studies. And we are not the only people to review our personal expenditure. At every level, the people I know are cutting back, although all things are relative. Mr M and I dined recently at the home of a man who has more people on his personal payroll (crew for the yacht, gardeners for the house in France and so on) than I do in my business. But the cook has gone, and our host barbecued for us, and sent his wife out to buy the cheese. (And still found time to show off the lighting system in his basement loo – what is it about boys and toys?)

The rich and/or famous are not immune. Our friends the Famous Couple celebrated their 10th wedding anniversary the other day. They told guests to bring their own tables, chairs and cutlery for a picnic dinner and found the ultimate boy with a toy – a hedge fund manager with a disco kit – to provide the 1980s music. Lots of parents will have to make tough choices in this recession, and I hope boys, not just ours, will look back and realise that, wherever they went to school, they are still heroum filii."

I think that of all the 'choices' in education, selection is the most unfair.
It is very divisive. I know of twins, very similar in ability, where one went to the grammar and one went to the secondary modern. My best friend at 11 was a very clever girl, but her father was in the army and they moved every 2 years.
My DH won a full scholarship to a private school at 11 but his brother (intelligent but in and out of hospital until he was 8yrs)went to the secondary modern. He left at 16 and has gradually worked himself up to a very good job and he flies all over the world. He educates his DCs privately; he could see that his brother had all the advantages. This is where I fall out with Dollius, who after having a top public school education would like to ban everyone else-why shouldn't he pay for his DCs education when he has worked so hard?
If I look on friends reunited my old classmates have a huge range of jobs-fascinating reading, they are not where you might expect.
When my DS was 7 I started to look into private education because I thought he was another borderline case. Before I got very far down the line I married again and we moved out of 11+ area. When he got to 11 I think he was borderline but in year 7 he came on in leaps and bounds and by 12 he would have passed. He was in a comprehensive and so moved up to top sets.
I think there is a lot wrong with the comprehensive system but it does allow movement up and down. A DC who hasn't found their feet at 11 can do it later.
I shouldn't get so emotive about the 11+ because it probably did me a lot of good! There is nothing like failure to spur you and think 'I'll show them! When I finally got to the grammar school, at 16yrs, I fitted in without a problem (I would have fitted in at 11).
Being told that 'thrown on the scrapheap' is an old cliche annoys me and brings back the old feelings-it certainly felt like that at 11yrs.

This thread has been interesting reading though the subject matter always fills me with apprehension as my children are so young and I have all this anxiety ahead of me.

Just had to interject on the subject of Grammer schools, as although the use of the emotive phrase 'scrap heap' by piscesmoon is perhaps overly dramatic. I have to agree that they had the, not necessarily desirable affect, of deciding a childs future at 11.

My parents are a case in point as Dad went to a Grammer school in Liverpool in the 50's and went on to University, the first in his family to do so. My mother failed her 11+ (had no idea that it was in any way important that she passed) though she was clearly a bright girl. Was considered factory fodder and left school at 15 with no qualifications.

State education should make provision for children according to their needs of course but I think streaming on the basis of tests etc. can be a blunt tool. Especially as well heeled parents will always ensure their child is well tutored before any test. So economic/ social divides are maintained.

I'm not sure that link was particularly myth exploding though.

Abolishing grammar's will end selection in education.

There has always been selection in education, whether by money or by religion etc.

It's like an MN thread.

Crikey, well I'm not a planner I'm afraid. I think Life Happens too, and I think it should as well.

I think if we were working from scratch, then I'd support UQD's theory. In fact when you think of it, there is a wide choice of education in this country - just as UQD always patiently points out, it's not a choice open to very many at all, and is therefore not really a choice.

So if all the wide variety of schooling options remained the same, but attending them weren't dependent on anything at all - including academic ability - it might work.

Some will chose the school down the road because it was good enough for them, some the school in the woods because they hate formal education, some public schools just because, steiner schools, others the old private school, others the grammar. It's radical, it'd certainly shake things up a bit. But imagine the threads! The agony! The choice!

No, I'm not missing your point UQD. You are telling me that making plans is futile because plans can go awry. I am telling you that that fact doesn't stop people making plans.

When I planned a career I factored in lots of stuff, but one of the things that was relevant was money. I wanted to buy a house, have holidays, have children (and pay school/university fees) and pay for retirement. This meant that certain careers were not a sensible option. I chose accordingly. Some people would think this sort of attitude is mercenary but I just thought it was practical. The fact that I may get run over by a bus tomorrow or contract some awful disease doesn't stop me planning. I am not unusual in this.

I entirely agree with pisces about the problem being the 93%.

Not if you failed at 11 UnquietDad-I can assure you that I felt consigned to the scrap heap! When I told people my ambitions they said 'can you still do that?'!! and yes I did do it-the hard way as all the other highly intelligent people did who were failed by the system. Unless you have been on the scrap heap you can't know! It isn't a cliche. The whole thing is a ridiculous waste of talent. I was border line and took it 3 times in all. The third time there were 2 places and I was 4th. At some point you draw a line and there is absolutely no difference between between the one above and the one below. If I had lived on the other side of the river my marks would have got me a grammar school place. My brother failed and then passed when he was 12yr. At 13 he was put in the express stream with the high flyers-he was the same boy! A truly dreadful system IMO. No one was moved down if they failed to perform and many left and got a job at 16yrs, having taken a place.