to be cross with friends son who has hacked up dead pidgeon

(111 Posts)
FoJo Sat 27-Jun-09 20:30:55

We live in a lovely street with lots of children aged 5 - 11. Earlier in the afternoon we spotted a dead pidgeon in the gutter opposite, not mauled, just lying there. DH said he'd move it 'later' and put it in bin but he forgot. Later on I was looking out of the window and saw 2 10 year old boys who live in street by it. One videoing on his phone while the other hacked it up with a stick, there are now feathers and gunk all over. I should have told him to stop straight away but for some reason didnt. I eventually opened the door and asked if he was going to clear it up and needless to say he went a bit pink and said it had already been like that (it hadnt!) He;s a really nice boy but Its now really bugging me and dh that this horrible mess is opposite our house. Do we snitch on him to his parents (our friends) or just bite the bullet and clear it up ourselves? I can understand the morbid curiosity that made him do it, just annoyed at the aftermath being left in the street!

cornsilk Sat 27-Jun-09 20:31:51

That's just the kind of thing my brothers would have done. Yuck.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 20:33:47

Well. It was already dead so perhaps it was curiosity. But I would be worried about 10 yo kids doing that. Damaging live animals etc is a good guide to violence later in life so a bit ambiguous in this case.... I'd maybe speak to the boy and tell him you were disturbed by him doing it and you want him to talk to his parentsabout it.

FoJo Sat 27-Jun-09 20:46:47

I understand what you;re saying Lupus, and agree but in this case I do think it was genuin e curiousity. Do we clear it up ourselves to keep the peace?

cornsilk Sat 27-Jun-09 20:47:39

No - tell his parents. They can sort it out.

pocketmonster Sat 27-Jun-09 20:59:16

I agree with Cornsilk - tell his parents and hopefully they'll make him clear it up. Bit uncomfortable with them filming it with phone tho - can understand the curiosity (kind of!) but filming it seems a bit sick - but maybe thats cos I only have girls!

junglist1 Sat 27-Jun-09 21:05:00

Oh my God! There's no guarantee he won't start on live animals next. I have boys and they're quite rough but dead animals really upset them, because they think the animal might have suffered. Does this boy have pets.

Kimi Sat 27-Jun-09 21:21:06

2 words Ted Bundy

modrin Sat 27-Jun-09 21:22:24

oh for gods sake its gross but thats what some boys are like does not mean they are going to become mass murderers hand him a shovel and say clean that up you horrible boy( i dont like the filming bit thought tbh)

TheCrackFox Sat 27-Jun-09 21:26:06

What Modrin said.

Servalan Sat 27-Jun-09 21:26:13

What modrin said.

Servalan Sat 27-Jun-09 21:27:03

(crossed posts there TheCrackFox blush )

SoupDragon Sat 27-Jun-09 21:27:48

It was dead FFS.

bronze Sat 27-Jun-09 21:29:10

If you know him and think it was curiosity it probably was.
Look forward 20 years time and you may find him a top surgeon

SoupDragon Sat 27-Jun-09 21:29:36

Some people take a dead chicken, rip its feathers out, chop its head off, pull out its innards and shove sage and onion up its arse.

2shoes Sat 27-Jun-09 21:29:48

he was doing what boys have always done(and some girls) at least the bird was already dead

southeastastra Sat 27-Jun-09 21:32:59

something will gobble it up during the night

Yurtgirl Sat 27-Jun-09 21:33:04

I agree with soupdragon - meateaters eat animals that have been simarly treated all the time!

Clear it up yourselves if it bothers you or ignore it and wait for a fox to deal with it

Dont snitch

macwoozy Sat 27-Jun-09 21:33:10

It's no big deal, he's just being a boy!

junglist1 Sat 27-Jun-09 21:34:03

What Junglist said

bronze Sat 27-Jun-09 22:15:40


Oh but the smell of a dead pigeon, surely there's nothing worse? Screams psychopath in training to me. Ring his mum, tell her you're worried he may have caught some horrible disease from it so thought you should let her know.

Oh but the smell of a dead pigeon, surely there's nothing worse? Screams psychopath in training to me. Ring his mum, tell her you're worried he may have caught some horrible disease from it so thought you should let her know.

utterly disgusting

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:04:18

So what?
Pigeons are horrible things, flying rats and they're just a couple of boys being boys.

Absolutely no big deal at all.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:05:54

Oh boys will be boys.

If ever there was a dodgy justification for random violence, that is it.

I do hope my 3 DSs will never find it fun and interesting enough to film the hacking up of a poor creature.

huge big deal, it's time we all stopped collectively apologising for future psycho-killers in the making.
It's just a gross/borderline serial killer thing to do and I would be livid if a child of mine behaved like that.
Ok I may be in a slightly bad mood but ffs that is disgraceful behaviour, end of.

FAQinglovely Sat 27-Jun-09 23:08:51

PMSL @ Soupys 21.29 post grin.

I'm not sure how curious 10yr old boys hacking up and already dead animal means they're going to turn into mass murderers or anything.

Boys (and some girls) often LOVE that sort of stuff and can't wait to see the insides of it.

My own DS1 and 2 (8 and 5) were rather roughly inspecting a large dead moth the other day - ok not quite the same thing - but they had a good tug of his wings seeing how far they stretched out.......and of course one came off blush grin

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:12:07

shock at the comments on this thread!
rofl at kimi's straight to the point "ted bundy". grin

Honestly, it's normal, normal, normal.
I would say nothing. You'd look pretty stupid to tell tale on this.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:12:19

I think a bit of respect for a once-living creature is in order TBH. I am not mad keen on my sons pulling the legs off daddy longlegs either and would always stop them.

I have even managed to cope with my fear of spiders to catch them in a glass and put them outside rather than have them get squished unnecessarily.

And I don't think being meat eaters justifies disrespect either.

hacking at a dead animal is depraved behaviour and I for one would be booking a child psychiatrist if it was my child.

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:13:58

they didn't kill the bird - it was already dead.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:14:03

sorry but grin at your posts - depraved behaviour and getting a pschiatrist involved!

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:14:36

Reminds me of science lessons and cutting up various dead animals. What a bunch of sickos we were.

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:14:50

I'd be seeking an adult psychiatrist for anybody who thought that two boys being curious about a dead animal was in any way wrong.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:17:24

So it's OK to hack at and film living things, so long as they're already dead?


hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:18:42

I dont understand how you can hack at a living thing when it's dead.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:19:15

I believe vets do this all the time.

Well call a doctor pronto then Nancy!
I just think it's a bloody disgusting to do, and honestly, saying it's just a boy thing is the most feeble excuse ever. Like it's ok for a boy to be a pscho in waiting?
Disclaimer: I eat meat

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:20:41

ok - it's a kid thing then.
I used to burn ants under a magnifying glass.

KerryMumbles Sat 27-Jun-09 23:20:58

If they had bit the head off and smeared the blood all over their faces and HOWLED then yes, maybe a psychiatric consult is in order....

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:21:05

How does it make a psycho? Really, interested how this jump is made?

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:21:09

Semantics. Things that were once alive. Would it be OK, for example, for them to do this to your pet?

Or your child?

KerryMumbles Sat 27-Jun-09 23:21:36

pmsl @ hercules

i think i'm in for my first mumsnet ruck! But I agree with lupus. FFS it's a frigging gross thing to do, I wouldn't allow it from my daughter, why do people think it's acceptable from boys?

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:23:13

It's a pidgeon, not a child. And dead bodies of people are cut up all the time too.
As a teenager I saw lots of dead animals being cut up. Didnt make me a psycho.

Hercules, hyperbole from me, I admit it. And yes Nancy, I get you re the ants thing. But just yuck all round, really.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:23:51

Personally I'm not fussed whether it's boys or girls who do it.

TheCrackFox Sat 27-Jun-09 23:24:30

It is pretty gross but very unlikely that they will turn into Ted Bundy.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:24:33

Of course it's yuck. So is picking your nose but I'm pretty sure dd has a good go at this and probably eats it too.

puffling Sat 27-Jun-09 23:26:05

They mightn't be psychos, but honestly, if you'd looked out of your window and seen 10 yr old boys cutting up a pigeon and filming it, you'd have to have felt a bit disturbed.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:26:50

Honestly, I wouldn't. I would have thought gross but "disturbed", no.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:27:06

Yes, it is unlikely they will turn into a psycho mass-murderer.

Yes, dead bodies are cut up in lots of other circumstances.

But almost all those other circumstances have some justification that is defended by a practical or moral need. And carefully controlled.

Pigeons are indeed not children. Thanks for that, I'd never have known. But really, are animals not afforded some moral dignity? Or are they just neutral for us to do with what we will?

Not on my moral compass.

There is a huge difference between hurting/killing something that's alive and chopping up or messing about with something that is dead (that you didn;t kill). What makes a person a potential psychopath (or an actual one) is the wish or intent to cause harm and suffering. You can't harm something that's dead. A degree of curiousity about bodies and how they function and what 'dead' means is perfectly healthy.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:27:28

Like the "mightn't be psychos". Of course they're bloody not!

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:28:15

they were prodding it with sticks - not dissecting it with surgical instruments.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:28:39

You did the comparison to children, I just used your example smile

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:29:01

'You can't harm something that's dead'

I'm not sure the parents of the Alder Hey scandal would agree.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:29:58

Lupus - I'll say it again, you can't compare pidgeons to people.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:30:09

Yeah but hercules, you see the pigeon and the child as entirely different on the moral scale. I see them as on a continuum. smile right back.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:30:37

Cross posts.

Why not?

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:31:13

Then we'll never agree! smile.

Lissya Sat 27-Jun-09 23:31:16

I can just about buy "boys will be boys" however they should certainly clean up the mess they've made and maybe it'll make them think twice about doing it again in the future. Definitely tell their parents - why should you or anyone else have to clean up their mess?

It's not the nicest behaviour and I wouldn't personally encourage or condone it if I had a 10yo boy. Mainly because even dead animals should be treated with respect as, to some idiots out there, there isn't much of a jump between pulling a dead animal to bits and tormenting a live vulnerable animal.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:32:09

I expect a fox will take the body during the night.

BananaFruitBat Sat 27-Jun-09 23:33:11

It's the level of violence implied (I don't know as I wasn't there) that is making me feel uncomfortable. A dead animal is going to take a hell of a lot of force to get chopped up with a stick. And filming it as well suggests that they are going to be watching it/showing it at some later stage.

I can't believe that's normal, and I don't know any blokes who did anything like that as kids.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:36:16

Well, for one thing mobile phones werent around then.
It's normal for children to film a lot of what they do on phones. THey were doing something they had probably never done before and so filmed it.

Lissya Sat 27-Jun-09 23:37:10

Solidgold: x posts, "What makes a person a potential psychopath (or an actual one) is the wish or intent to cause harm and suffering. You can't harm something that's dead".

I'm not sure of the definition of psychopath but there was a wish and intent to cause harm. You can't make something suffer that's already dead, but you can harm it.

Anyway, like I said - the behaviour shows lack of respect which can (not necessarily will, but can) degenerate into worse behaviour. ie killing something to pull it apart if there isn't a convenient dead one to hand.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:38:06

I really do think you are overanalysing this. It was a couple of kids poking a stick at a dead bird.

Oh I know you cannot actually hurt an animal that's dead, but honestly, where does being a sicko start? It's vile and icky behaaviour, and I just hate the 'it's a boy thing' excuse, That's all.
Still waiting for my shrink wink

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:40:32

I havent used the it's a boy thing as an excuse. I think being a sicko starts with a lot more than this tbh.

LupusinaLlamasuit Sat 27-Jun-09 23:41:02

Perhaps I am unduly influenced by my childhood memory of a bunch of boys in an urban park who were screaming with joy as they smashed a large rock onto the shell of a tortoise to splatter open its insides.

It really was Lord of the Flies.

I was horrified.

I would not think it OK to justify the random destruction of any ex-living thing's body. Jeez, I tell my kids not to randomly pull leaves off trees because they need to have a bit of respect for nature grin

But we don't know the context. And I would accept a curious need to explore biology. But this can be done in so many controlled circumstances. As BananaFruitBat said, it sounds violent. And only the context would explain it.

I would want to know if it were my son, so I could discuss why he needed to do it and so we could discuss why pigeons do have some moral rights in death grin

Lissya Sat 27-Jun-09 23:42:32

If poking at it with a stick was all they were doing Hercules, then the bird wouldn't have different enough to notice.

OP said "feathers and gunk", more than poking in my book

on sale in all bad bookshops smile

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:42:34

Lupus - if it were my child I'd talk to them too about why it was not appropriate although I wouldnt do the moral rights in death of a pidgeon. I would say respect for all things though.

Lissya Sat 27-Jun-09 23:44:52

Agree Lupusina.

ONce anything is dead, it's beyond being harmed. It's just litter.

As to the Alder Hey scandal, well personally I never got what all the fuss was about with that, either. But then I'm leaving my carcass to Gunter Von Hagen anyway.

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:49:14

Unless the OP picked the bird up and turned it over and had a good look she really can't say how battered it already was.

most dead pigeons are either killed by cats or hit by cars and would probably already have a few bits hanging off.

Not sure how you can compare dead children who had their organs stolen without parental consent to vermin by the roadside.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:49:59

knew I was spelling pigeons wrong.

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:51:04

....weren't us spelling pedants restrained in not saying anything? You've no idea how much I was itching to.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:51:44

I've always had a problem with that word and stupidly trusted the op.

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:52:25

I did also think that after my first post that someone would come along and point out my mistake and when noone did I thought it must be right.

2shoes Sat 27-Jun-09 23:52:29

SolidGoldBrasse hmm

Nancy66 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:53:22

I think she's gone off to give the pigeon a decent 12 different grave sites by the sound of it grin

But let's not ignore the vom factor of all this? Lord of the Flies is right (an O level text of mine so I bloody well know what I'm talking about/ And in a non-stalkerish way, I think i went to same school as SGB).
Ok let's just all be friends and appreciate the BOSS at Glasto, no? Even though I'm too young. obv

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:54:12

nancy rofl grin

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:54:43

Oh shit, does that make me a sicko to laugh at your joke shock?

MAMM: <<Hijack>> Really? Was the post code SE3 something? And the initials BHS?

Lissya Sat 27-Jun-09 23:55:37

Hmm... M&MM says too young for the BOSS... yet has O levels not GCSEs... <strokes chin>

BillyJeanIsNotMyMother Sat 27-Jun-09 23:57:42

Well I'm a girl (last time I checked0 and remember being 10 and my friend running round to my house to tell me there was a dead rabbit in the field. I was excited and we both prodded it with sticks for ages.

SGB - yep... um Wemyss Rd giving too much away? Sixth Form Common room? BHS is right!
But yep O Levels and slightly too young for Boss but still loving it!

hercules1 Sat 27-Jun-09 23:59:02

Points finger at Billyjeanisnotmymother and screams Ted Bundy.

MAMM! Squeeeee! Who are you? Give me a hint, at least, or CAT me.

CornishKK Sun 28-Jun-09 00:10:11

And I'm a girl and I remember my sister and I finding a dead crow, flattening it with a see-saw and then trying to get the corpse to balance in a tree. It entertained us for quite a while.

The pigeon was dead, the kids are not going to grow up to be serial killers - but yes they should clean up the mess.

I love animals, I would never harm an animal but I was fascinated with dead stuff as a kid. I even dug up my sister's gerbil about two weeks after his funeral just to have a little look.

We grew up in the country, it was dead animals and smoking in barns or nothing in terms of leisure facilities.

HIJACK alert - sorry about all the dead pigeons and all!
Oh blinking flip SGB I have no CAT, but I was there 79 - prob don't know me. I just picked up from your posts that you were a BHS girl. 2 years above me were all the cool gals, Matilda Quiney, Ranji, Deb Stokes et al... hope not giving too much away.. I don't know how to be in touch otherwise without giving away my name?!
Our school motto was something dreadful like 'knowledge is now nor more a fountain sealed'.

Nahui Sun 28-Jun-09 00:21:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BillyJeanIsNotMyMother Sun 28-Jun-09 00:24:04

SGB and Monkey me and my sister went there too (only for a year for me though)

I like pigeons
City slicker, mos def.
Meat eater - absolutely!
Billy Jean... ooh exciting, when were you there? I still have fond memories of the place

BillyJeanIsNotMyMother Sun 28-Jun-09 00:34:10


MAMM: GOodness! Well I was there 75-82. There is another MNer who was there around the same years as you, whose older sister was one of my mates, though I have not seen her on here for a while. BJINMM - ah, well I wouldn't have known you then... Hadn't the school moved from Wemyss Rd by then?

BillyJeanIsNotMyMother Sun 28-Jun-09 00:44:55

Yeah it was in the middle of the Heath (think it still is)

Billyjean - you are a mere baby (meant in the nicest possible way - my school did atr least teach me vaguely good manners)!
Gosh SGB you are old school then... literally! We prob have loads to discuss, do you remember Miss Brodie (sic) perchance? Best/most harsh French teacher ever, she used to tell me off for having sleeves rolled up. It was a pretty strict school in those days [happy Malory Towers emoticon]
Well, goodnight, and well done us for not outing each other on here!

MAMM! Oh yes. She was a great teacher, in her way (well, once you were old enough not to be scared shitless of her)... Do you remember Mr Lewin? Every time those 'no one forgets a good teacher' adverts were aired I used to think of him...
I will CAT you and we can continue this without boring the knickers off everyone else...

Theresa Sun 28-Jun-09 14:22:09

Blimey, was not expecting such a debate & i thought long and hard about the spelling before typing it, but still got it wrong!! I wasn't really so bothered about what they were actually doing (although not very nice!) it was more the 'who's going to clear it up' that bothered me! Anyway, someone/something has as it was gone this morning, just a few feathers left!

SGB - God yes I remember Lewin and his 'interesting' style of teaching. Sorry again for going o/t, don't think I have the CAT function btw?

yuk yuk yuk... the only bit thats disturbing is the filming part, other than that they were prob just curious.. still yuk though..

OrmIrian Mon 29-Jun-09 11:34:22

A bit grisly. I'm not sure that curiosity is erved by bashing it up with a stick hmm I would speak to his parents and get them to ask him to clear it up.

The DCs in our street had a funeral for a dead mouse a few weeks ago. It had flowers on it's grave and DD spoke over the grave.

As a child I was fascinated whenever I came across a dead animal and if I got the chance would examine it closely, opening it up, poking and proding it etc.

I once found a sheep's (intact) stomach floating in the water at the beach and I spent the rest of the day examining it on the sand, it was fascinating and I learnt loads. The stomach was still fll of grass too and some of the intestines where attached.

I am not a psycho, just fascinated with living things and how they work and would have liked to have bene a doctor.

I would ask the boys to clear it up, or askt eh parents to ask the boys to clear it up. Only fair really.

onagar Mon 29-Jun-09 11:38:50

I was more squeamish as a kid, but most boys would do that out of curiosity. It's probably even educational.

The filming sounds odd, but it actually makes good sense to film just about everything when you have a simple means to do so. A new part of our culture there I think as people seem to automatically take a picture now of things to save describing them.

Firstly - the gutter opposite? How territorial are you?

Secondly - it'll be gone by morning.

gagamama Tue 30-Jun-09 10:36:43

I cut the head off a dead blackbird using a spoon when I was about 9. It took about half an hour and my friend and I had to do shifts because it was quite arduous. I also remember being fascinated by the intestines, liver and kidneys from a fox-mauled rabbit I found strewn over a field. I even dug up my dead goldfish when I was about 4 to see whether my mum was telling the truth about it going to heaven. A curiosity about death is natural, especially when so many adults bullshit kids with all kinds of fluffy euphemisms for what is actually a natural, inevitable and unfrightening consequence of life.

Just shovel some sand over the mess and forget about it.

HumphreyCobbler Tue 30-Jun-09 10:39:59

lolol that some folk think it is an indication of potential serial killer tendencies

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