To use the word "naughty"

(406 Posts)
speedymama Tue 29-May-07 09:40:37

DTS are 3 yo and go to nursery. This weekend they chastised me and DH for using that word. They did something that I had asked them not to do and I told them to stop being naughty. DT1 retorted with "don't say naughty, I'm not naughty, you can't say naughty". So I responded with "well stop misbehaving then!"

I spoke to the nursery about this and they confirmed that they are not allowed to use the word naughty because it labels the child rather than the act. Now I'm all for positive parenting but there comes a time when you have to just tell how it is. I don't call my boys name but I do point out their bad behaviour and I also praise them when they are being good. In fact, I praise more than I chastise.

As a child, when my parents told me that I was being naughty, I took notice. Now my 3yo DTS read me the riot act. Well, I will not be dictated to by a toddler and if that makes me a dinosaur in terms of modern day parenting, so be it.

So am I a recalcitrant, anachronistic, old fashioned dinosaur who refuses to indulge the latest fads in parenting as dictated by a bunch of pinko liberal, arm wringing, bleeding heart busybodies?

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 29-May-07 09:41:36

I totally agree with you

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 09:42:06

Yes, that's exactly what you are IMO. What an obnoxious post.

ChasingSquirrels Tue 29-May-07 09:42:18

I use it - and I definate refuse to indulge the latest fads in parenting - not sure what that says

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 29-May-07 09:42:19

Anyway you don't have to say you are naughty
you can say that is naughty

I get this pc preaching from dd all the time it makes me roll my eyeballs

i dont say 'you' are naughty, i say 'that' was naughty so it is labelling the act. i would be with nursery as they must have told your dts you cant say naughty. how naughty of them

nailpolish Tue 29-May-07 09:44:40

just say the the act is nuaghty then

"its naughty to not do what mummy asks you to"

jeez, wft do you say if you cant say naughty? what do they say at the nursery then?

misdee Tue 29-May-07 09:45:59

naughty nursery.

PetronellaPinkPants Tue 29-May-07 09:46:25

I do worry that they are not being prepared for the real world by this sort of thing

DD burst into tears one day because I said she was being silly - she kept saying that that wasn't a nice word and no-one should use it. What will happen when she starts school and gets called a LOT worse than that??

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 09:47:52

Greensleaves, what is obnoxious?

Out of interest, I wonder where that leaves the naughty step?

MellowMa Tue 29-May-07 09:48:07

Message withdrawn

MellowMa Tue 29-May-07 09:48:48

Message withdrawn

MellowMa Tue 29-May-07 09:49:11

Message withdrawn

I just say stop misbehaving.

OrmIrian Tue 29-May-07 09:49:35

I agree with the principle - label the behaviour not the child but I will admit to forgetting sometimes

Not sure that the children discern the nice distinction between the 2 uses anyway.

nailpolish Tue 29-May-07 09:50:03

silly is a v ery good word to use
i use silly quite a lot
we are not allowed to say stupid in this house

ChasingSquirrels Tue 29-May-07 09:50:06

surely if you don't use naughty you wouldn't have a naughty step?
I don't have a naughty step either - but thats because so far ds1 is a dream, ds2 is going to have a whole naughty house all to himself if form to date is anything to go by!

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 09:51:00

NP, they say they use other words like "you are being tetchy today"

What is the point of that if the connotation is the same? Out of interest, the staff do not agree with it but they have to comply with the dictats from up on high and naughty is now a banned word, apparently.

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 09:51:20

Didn't we have a mahoosive thread about this a few months ago?

YANBU.

GiantSquirrelSpotter Tue 29-May-07 09:51:57

The nursery are obviously a bit confused.

Labelling the child is if you say "you are naughty". That's not the same as saying "that was naughty".

That is actually too complex for some people to deal with though.

I blame the decline of religion. I was taught from an early age "hate the sin, love the sinner" so always understood the concept of separating the person from the act. A lot of people can't seem to grasp it though, so throw the baby out with the bathwater

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 09:52:51

ha, ha, ha!

the woooooooooooooooooooooorld's gorn maaaaaaaaaaaaad!

Ask em to give you a list of words you ARE allowed to use, might be easier

nailpolish Tue 29-May-07 09:53:04

i really cant see what is wrong wiht naughty
it just means you are doing something you have been asked not to ffs! or that you know is wrong. if the child doesnt know its wrong then they are not naughty, if htey do know its wrong but they still do it they are naughty. at least is better than "you are a bad boy"

i imo a 3 yr old has a grasp on what is right and wrong in simple situations

GiantSquirrelSpotter Tue 29-May-07 09:53:09

Well also tetchy is incorrect.

The child may be tetchy, but naughtiness is not always down to tetchiness.

No-one will know what anything in English means anymore.

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 09:53:25

tetchy?

fookin ell

you just HAVE to laugh

unsettled step

Hulababy Tue 29-May-07 09:53:44

I don't tend to say "you are naughty" type comments, but I will label a behaviour as naughty or not nice.

So "don't do that, it's naughty" rather than "don't be naughty".

Popple Tue 29-May-07 09:53:45

I don't think you should call a child naughty.
I've read a lot about this - it's to do with being labelled and how this affects your expectations of yourself and shapes your behaviour. Can any of you look back on your childhood and identify how you were labelled and then lived up (or down) to that label? It's almost like placing a rubber band around a person and saying 'you are this person, this is your identity'. It makes me feel upset that people think this is OK.

Nurseries are not supposed to call children naughty. Perhaps they were just correcting other children who were calling your twins naughty? Rather than saying 'your mummy isn't allowed to call you naughty'? I wouldn't complain about it and get het up at the nursery staff when they are obviously trying to treat your children well.

It is fine to say 'drawing on the walls in a naughty thing to do'. They then see that behaviour as something that is bad rather than just them being bad.

So, yes. I do think you are being unreasonable. Look around on the internet and have a look at the literature that backs this approach up.

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 09:53:59

I agee with not labelling children but I don't see what is wrong with saying "stop being naughty" as oppose to "you are being naughty".

The former is labelling the behaviour whereas the latter is labelling the child, as far as I can see.

OrmIrian Tue 29-May-07 09:54:58

How about 'ill-advised' or' challenging' or 'below par in the behavioural stakes'.

I think it also depends on what you have been brought up with saying. Eg: A potty training thread I was on yesterday I said I asked my ds if he was dirty & he said no.

A couple of posters advised me not to use the word dirty incase ds gets to thinking that his poo is dirty & holds it in more [which I can totally understand] And I have taken it on board, telling the c/minder today not to use it [she looked at me like I was a monster & I didn't try to tell her that MN suggested we lose the word for a while]

But here, dirty is a common word, everyone says it, so it's not like he is any different from lots of children being potty trained around the country....

Perhaps your use of the word naughty is as common as my use of the word dirty?

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 09:56:06

Popple - must be why I'm a gibbering wreck then



NOT

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 09:56:08

Your OP is obnoxious IMO speedy. There's a definite ring of the "PC Gone Mad!!!" Sun-reader-style blustering indignation about it.

Hulababy Tue 29-May-07 09:56:26

I also think labelling the behaviour or act actually helps to clarify things more for a child. "Stop beingnaughty" means very little really - - they may not always know exactly what it is they are doing that is the naughty bit, especially when little. However "don't crayon on the wall, it is naughty" or similar identifies exactly what behaviour is the naughty bit and makes it clearer for the child. Do that make sense??

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 09:56:29

Popple, I did not call the twins naughty, I asked them to stop being naughty - there is a big difference there which seems to be lost on a lot of people these days.

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 09:56:57

I agree with the nursery

I don't say "You are naughty" or "You are mean" or "You are stupid" - how many people will tell you that their parents said things like that to them, and it became self-fulfilling?

I will say "That was a naughty thing to do" or "That was a silly thing to do" instead

I hear people saying "You are so naughty" etc. and it does grate a bit

The nursery aren't sending the children home to tell you off - all you are hearing is what the nursery say to the children, e.g. "Archie don't tell Stella she is naughty!"

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 10:00:21

My DS is 13 mo, but I guarantee you when he is older, he will at some point be told "you are being naughty".

He will also be told "you are very clever", "you are lovely", "you are a great boy" and various other things.

I don't know how to say this without upsetting or irritating people, that's not my intention, but there's just so much bolleaux written these days about parenting.

IMVHO .

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 10:00:36

Greensleaves, well fortunately I don't read the Sun, Mail etc and my post is borne out of fustration with the creeping curtailment on parents being trusted to use their own judgements and common sense without being made to feel inadequate or insufficient to raise their own children responsibly.

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 10:01:02

[Actually I don't think I use the word NAUGHTY at all. Except when reading 'My Naughty Little Sister'. It's a bit of a strange word isn't it? Something we only apply to children. It's got a bit of the Kenneth Williams about it.]

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 10:01:53

IMO my son Henry is more likely to be damaged by the fact that there is a popular series of books with his name combined with the word HORRID!

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 10:02:29

You know, on these forums there are some posts that come across as being very righteous but in the same breath are condemning whole groups of people for reading certain newspapers or whatever as though they are somehow second class and have no right to an opinion.

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 10:02:32

Speedymama only YOU can make yourself feel inadequate

The best thing to do is find out all about the issue and make a reasoned decision one way or the other

GiantSquirrelSpotter Tue 29-May-07 10:04:21

Hold on, Speedy isn't saying she wants to call her child naughty. She's saying she uses the word to describe a behaviour. Labelling the act, not the child, exactly what we're supposed to do. Where's the disagreement? Isn't she complaining about the non use of the word naughty to label behaviour?

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 10:05:08

Nothing like a bit of sideways passive-aggressive non-specific lily-livered needling, is there Jools

Gobbledigook Tue 29-May-07 10:05:56

Spot on Jools

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 10:06:25

<gets popcorn>

MellowMa Tue 29-May-07 10:06:27

Message withdrawn

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 10:06:40

pmsl at the pincer movement

Gobbledigook Tue 29-May-07 10:11:19

<snort>

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 10:11:20

Certain newspapers are crap and offensive and poisoning our society into becoming a group of xenophobic, irrational, paedo-hating nutters

is that ok?

cheekymonk Tue 29-May-07 10:11:33

Speedymama I was also corrected by my nursery when asked how I told my child off. I say "that was naughty" rather than "you are naughty" but was told that I should talk about feelings as that is what nursery do.
Apparently I should say "it makes mummy cross when you do that" or it makes "mummy sad" etc. I have said this in the past but worried it would be loading unnecessary guilt on ds. I did notice however that this had the best effect! I felt very put in place but would rather know sooner than later. I know I am far from a perfect mum!

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 10:12:12

Thanks GiantSquirrel, that is exactly my point. Saying "Stop being naughty" is not the same as saying "you are naughty".

Naughty is a valid word in the English language so why it cannot be used is beyond me.

Does this also mean that in a few years time that we will no longer be allowed to label people who break the law as criminals or rapists or murderers or thieves because to label the individual as oppose to the act is damaging to the individual concerned?

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 10:13:51

Absolutely speedy, it's PC gawn mad and we'll all come to a sticky end

<wipes flecks of spittle foam from face>

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 10:16:15

cheekymonk - I too find that the easiest way to make my daughter behave is to show her my own sadness/disappointment at bad behaviour.

Yesterday morning she was being a pain and I told her how upset she was making me and that I didn't her with me if she was that whiny, and shut her (very briefly) in the bathroom where she was bothering me (she can open the door herself). She let herself out after 15 seconds, and it worked wonders, she was an angel after that and behaved beautifully all day, even in a Japanese restaurant at lunchtime.

cheekymonk Tue 29-May-07 10:23:11

Interesting Anna8888. Nice to hear someone else back their theory up!

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 10:26:14

lol @ spittle

Speedymama if you read any Enid Blyton you will note that there are LOTS of things we no longer say to children

"You are a wicked child!" comes up a lot in the Secret Seven bit I avoid it where I can

soapbox Tue 29-May-07 10:27:25

Speedymama - you said "I agee with not labelling children but I don't see what is wrong with saying "stop being naughty" as oppose to "you are being naughty"."

How can you stop being naughty, if you are not already being naughty? So how is saying 'you are being naughty' different from 'you are naughty'?

You are still labelling the child.

I think the 'best practice' advice [weak smile] is to describe the behaviour as naughty - so 'stop pulling X's hair- that is a naughty thing to do', rather than 'stop being naughty'!

In fact I think it is Gess, who says that it is even better not to tell someone to stop doing XYZ, but instead tell them to to ABC.

It's apparently similar to me telling you to stop thinking of giraffes - it is almost impossible to do, consciously. If I tell you instead to think of elephants, thinking of giraffes never crosses your mind

So be precise in your expectations and formulate a positive message, so X come here please, would be better than 'don't play with the remote control'!

TootyFrooty Tue 29-May-07 10:33:46

I am intrigued by this. Do 3/2/1 year olds really get the distinction between naughty behaviour and being told they are naughty? I totally understand the labelling thing and I make an effort never to tell my dses they are naughty but if ds1 (2.6) pushes ds2 (for example) I do say "Pushing is naughty - you mustn't do it". Does he understand that it's the behaviour I'm labelling as naughty or does he just hear "blah blah naughty blah blah"?

Budababe Tue 29-May-07 10:33:52

Now you see I am Irish and we don't have any of this nonsense.

"You are a very bold boy" usually works wonders!

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 10:34:59

soapbox - how about "stop pulling X's hair - you are hurting her"?

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 10:38:50
JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 10:43:52

lapin, that Twiglett talks my language

soapbox Tue 29-May-07 10:46:18

Anna - even better

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 10:48:22

What language is that Jools, Olde Englysshe?

Popple Tue 29-May-07 10:52:02

JoolsToo - whhaaaaat?? Why are you a gibbering wreck? What were you labelled as when you were a child - if this is what you mean.

Speedymama - I didn't mean to say that YOU had called your twins naughty as such. I was trying to point out why a nursery might not use the term. The nursery was probably correcting other children - children label other children as much as adults do. I was trying to explain the theory behind the concept. Being a twin myself, I know that people are very quick to label a mischievous twosome as 'terrible' or 'naughty'. If this is continually reinforced by others then it can affect a child's behaviour. I don't believe that using the word 'naughty' is wrong per se. Just the context in which it is used.

If you are interested then this is what it is based upon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

Am I right in thinking you are upset by this as your dt's turned to you and told you that you were wrong to say the word naughty? Isn't this more an issue about your children answering you back and that you feel the nursery has encouraged this? If they're being 'dictated' to then it's natural that they would repeat it.

Personally I would just chill out and carry on doing whatever you were doing anyway if you don't agree with these other opinions. Sod those that judge. We all do things differently.

colditz Tue 29-May-07 10:54:02

i never say "You are a naughty boy" I always say "That was a naughty thing to do!"

But ds1's first use of the word NAUGHTY was "ds2 is naughty mummy!"

Similarly, whenever his brother throws up or possets etc, ds1 would wail "Ds2 has done a gross!"

3 and 4 year olds are not so hot on grammar as you would like to think!

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 10:55:12

soapbox - .

It's quite hard work getting used to systematically describing to children the feelings that behaviour (good or bad) provokes in other people... but I'm definitely a convert to the school of thought that says that that is the way to emotional literacy, for want of better jargon.

GiantSquirrelSpotter Tue 29-May-07 10:59:39

I suspect that the nursery has gone in for the baby out with bathwater thing because they estimate that their staff can only understand a simple message.

Much the same as the government telling us never to drink in pregnancy - assume everyone's thick and you get the message across better.

That thread was good. Twig was right, a "you are naughty" once in a while isn't going to influence a child. But if they are continually told they are, then it will.

Nursery staff can't have any exceptions because it ll gets too complicated. Like schools with exceptions - the logistics are too much to cope with.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 11:00:38

When DD1 pushed someone at school I actually didn't use the word naughty with her. I explained that pushing was dangerous and made her friends and mummy sad. I thought that would get my point across better than telling her she was naughty.

I've never really sat and thought about it but I do seem to explain why I don't want her to do something rather than tell her she's naughty. For example, she drew on the table I said 'no, you don't draw on the table, paper only or no pens'.

She flicked her sister in the face and I told her that it wasn't nice and made DD2 upset and kind hands make people happy'.

I probaly do use the word sometimes but as I say I'm more likey to explain why her behaviour is unacceptable rather then just label her naughty.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 11:02:24

The nursery are VERY NAUGHTY for telling you how to raise your own children.

sophable Tue 29-May-07 11:12:00

hate naughty. hate hate hate silly, especially used in context of child feeling fearful etc.

doesn't mean i'm not guilty of it sometimes but try not to use these kinds of words at all.

what i hate the most is the 'doesn't prepare them for real life' argument.....life can be harsh, a totall secure base prepares children to be resilient, not vice versa. children who are absolutely secure in their 'good' not naughty nature, and the fact that their feelings are valid and not silly are MORE not less resilient to bullying and teasing imo and ime.

oliveoil Tue 29-May-07 11:13:37

deja vuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 11:14:36

I'd rather use naughty than "bad"

<flicks through other thread to see what other posts she can rehash>

sophable Tue 29-May-07 11:16:33

oooo, sorry is there another thread.

agree littlelapin, that's the worst of the lot imo.

Furrymummy Tue 29-May-07 11:17:03

I don't think you are being unreasonable, I'm sure most of the mums on here were all called naughty by their own parents - I know I was! Do any of you honestly think it did you any harm? When 6yo DSS is playing up, his mum and dad have no compunction about telling him he is being naughty. Once he has calmed down, he apologises (he is soooo polite!) and it's forgotton about 5 mins later! And lets face it when you are feeling harrassed by kids playing up, trying to cook tea or juggle some other tasks you are not really going to take the time out before you speak to think "hmm, should I say being naughty or are naughty or *mummy is getting a bit cross*" because it's natural to come out with what ever is at the top of your head? Perhaps in calmer circumstances you might have time to consider what to say to your lo, but when will that ever happen .
I would be more disturbed at (as I once heard neighbour across the road at old house shout at their 4yo) "pack that sh!t in you f*ing toerag".
So compared to that "naughty" isn't exactly a hanging offence. Whether you use that word or not is no reflection on your skills as parents, everyone has their own approach which best suits them, you all strike me as responsible parents, unlike the parents of the 4yo (I've since heard that their 2 kids have been taken into care!).

sophable Tue 29-May-07 11:19:52

furrymummy....we were all called naughty by our parents.....how many adults do you know who you can honestly say have really good self-esteem? there really aren't that many around.

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 11:22:11

I agree with Twiglett on that other thread too. My DTS receive a lot of praise for doing even the simplest things. However, I feel it is just as important for them to learn that when they do something wrong it is pointed out to them. After all, if a child only ever hears that they are wonderful, what happens when they go out in to the world and somebody says something negative to them?

I see the point about couching it in terms of "when you do that it makes Mummy sad". However, sometimes, circumstances call for a blunt rebuke without using the softly, softly reproach. After all, who ever heard of a boss at work saying to his staff "when you behave like that it makes me really sad"?

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 11:23:06

Yes, I totally agree, we should call our children names to prepare them for school or else they will crumble totally

younger the better IMO, I started taunting ds as soon as he was born and I intend to progress to pinching him, giving him Chinese burns and stealing his dinner money when he is not much older

it is the only way to get them ready for real life

Furrymummy Tue 29-May-07 11:25:21

Yes that's very true. I suffered from that for years - however that was because i was severely bullied at school. I was a confident outgoing child until I went to Junior School. My DSS is also has a very confident and outgoing personality.
Low self esteem is a common problem but there are many factors involve, it is a little unfair to say that it is solely due to your upbringing.

Furrymummy Tue 29-May-07 11:25:59

LOL at F&Z

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 11:25:59

Speedymama it isn't a choice between telling your children they are "X" (naughty/bad/stupid) and being a drip

You can be as much of a disciplinarian as you like but you don't need to telling your children they are inherently naughty

It's all about language innit

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 11:26:41

Franny, would you be offended if I said that your response was silly?

lizyjane Tue 29-May-07 11:27:21

In my school we would not use naughty to describe a child. I am not saying that I think it is a wrong word to use in parenting in general, I just feel that it is not appropriate for a non-family member to apply it to a child.

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 11:27:53

yes and it will be your fault when I go and put clown shoes on and drive a very small car whose wheels fall off

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 11:29:47

MP, I asked them to stop being naughty (verb), I did not tell them that they were naughty (adjective).

Yes it is all in the language which seems lost on many unfortunately.

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 11:31:37

Oh god, I've just told my son he's stinky. He's going to grow up with a personal hygiene complex.

<dons gas mask>

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 11:33:09

no speedymama you are very muddled there

the use of the word naughty is exactly the same in both of your examples - it is used to describe the children

"you are naughty" "you are being naughty"

same thing

"hitting people is naughty" - slight difference. All a bit hair splitting though IMO. It isn't the greatest word to us, full stop.

beckybrastraps Tue 29-May-07 11:36:53

Of course there's a difference between the two uses of the word.

beckybrastraps Tue 29-May-07 11:39:58

Actually, I don't like the 'it makes mummy sad' approach at all. I used that expression the other day and dd was really quite perturbed. She kept bringing me things and saying 'are you happy now?'.

Boco Tue 29-May-07 11:46:12

Personally i think language is really important, it's how a child shapes their world and their understanding of themselves - and it's good to look carefully at what you say and how you say it.

I do react by saying 'that's naughty!' when surprised by lipstick on walls etc, but its not particularly great practice, and if i have time to think about it, i won't. Not using the word doesnt' mean i'm going to ignore the behaviour - or be too soft - I will definitely communicate that i'm cross and she'll know why and what she needs to do to help me to wash it off.

If its used all the time, for any behaviour that the parent doesn't particularly like, it's unhelpful and lazy at best.

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 11:47:19

FZ, totally disagree.

Using being confers the doing hence it is a verb. Totally different to saying you are naughty where the person is being described.

I found this to illustrate my point.

Stigaloid Tue 29-May-07 11:48:49

If my kids did something naughty i would tell them. I would not put up with being answered back to either by 3 year olds telling me what i can or can not say to discipline them. You are the parent and what you say goes - above and beyond what any nursery teacher tells them too.

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 11:50:10

Agree, Sigaloid

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 11:50:21

becky - I'm with you, the "makes Mummy sad" thing sounds terrible to me (no, I haven't read any research etc, that is an instinctive reaction).

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 11:51:56

Agree Becky, Boco

I think the main misconception on this thread, is people thinking that anyone who doesn't call their child "naughty", doesn't discipline them at all, in any way

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 11:56:22

Actually, the main misconception on this thread is that those of us who use words like naughty are negatively labelling our children (even though we are describing their behaviour)and setting them up to be adults with low self-esteem.

cheekymonk Tue 29-May-07 11:56:51

Giantsquirrelspotter I have to say I find your last post re nursery staff offensive. You intimate that they are thick and need things dumbing down themselves. I am very grateful to those staff for looking after ds to give me some sanity and him a change of scenery plus a stimulating environment with other kids. They do a good job and as they long as they give ds respect, care and attention I am happy. I don't care if they are Einstein or not!

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 11:58:46

Speedymama I don't feel that you are really listening to the argument which makes Morningpaper sad but I think you made your position pretty clear by deciding that this approach was "dictated by a bunch of pinko liberal, arm wringing, bleeding heart busybodies" in your OP

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 11:58:47

FrannyandZooey: "*I think* the main misconception on this thread is....."

Speedymama: "Actually the main misconception on this thread is....."

Says it all, really.

I'm not a fan of the word naughty, there are lots of other ways to show your disapproval of a certain kind of behaviour.

I don't do a naughty step either, it's the thinking step here!

surely it's hand wringing
not arm wringing?

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 12:01:28

Who was it mentioned Chinese burns?!?

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 12:02:07

arm wringing makes it sound like liberal pinkos are going around giving people chinese burns

that's not the way the revolution works is it?

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 12:02:10

speedymama - but if you call your child "naughty" or call its behaviour "naughty", you are labelling your child in a potentially counter productive way. Far, far better to tell them why the behaviour they are engaged in is inappropriate - "stop pinching - you are hurting me", "stop whining - I find the noise intolerable", "stop playing football in the corridor - it's late and you will disturb the neighbours' children who go to bed earlier than you", etc etc

Gobbledigook Tue 29-May-07 12:02:43

Oh to be perfect.

My children are fecking doomed, I tell you.

littlelapin Tue 29-May-07 12:03:15

LOL at arm wringing!

MP, why are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person? "makes MorningPaper sad"... makes me picture you like this

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 12:03:46

GiantSquirrelSpotter - I have to say I agree with cheekymonk, I don't think all nursery staff are that dim (but God knows I'm no fan of nurseries).

Boco Tue 29-May-07 12:05:25

I did wonder about arm wringing, is it like bell ringing?

I hate the 'pinko liberal..blah blah blah' stuff. It puts peoples backs up because it's saying that if you actually spend any time analysing the effect of your parenting on your children then you're some kind of hysterical busybody.

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:05:52

surely they've just been told that at nursery and are repeating it, without the entymological bickering that's goiing on here?
no offence, but i don't think that nursery staff are the sharpest pencils in the box, presumably they've been told not to call children 'naughty' in a memo (for the complex reasons discussed here) and it's been translated via a 20something nursery nurse and a pair of 3-year-olds delighted to get one over on mummy as 'you must not use the word naughty'.
seems like a big fat fuss about nothing (apart from your rather irritating labelling of parents who might care about this as lily-livered pinkos... )

i loved catchgin my parents out doing something i'd been told was off-limits, it wouldn't matter whether i'd got the wrong end of the stick or not.

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 12:06:03

On a serious note (honestly) I have actually learned quite a bit from ds1's nursery teachers. I am surprised at myself to find that I am not too proud to pick up tips from them - not everything they do is my style, but they are brilliant with ds1 so it doesn't hurt to exchange ideas. For example their policy of holding the transgressing child's hand while reprimanding gently, to reassure the child that it is the behaviour and not the child which is at fault. It may not give you that staisfying "I'm angry, I want to see punishment" buzz that some parents seem to primevally to crave, but it does a much better job of modifying bad behaviour and promoting the child's understanding of right and wrong, IMO.

I hate the idea of telling small children that they're making you sad/upset/unhappy. That feels so utterly wrong to me. Surely you're just setting them up to feel responsible for your feelings. I don't want dd to ever have to feel responsible for my feelings, what a burden for a little person.
I tell dd that what shes doing is naughty, if it is! Cannot for the life of me understand why if she's throwing toys/being rude etc I cannot tell her that doing so is naughty, it is naughty ffs!

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 12:06:41

Yes Boco

It's actually quite worthwhile to reflect on one's parenting technique occasionally

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 12:07:50

"no offence, but i don't think that nursery staff are the sharpest pencils in the box"]

erm Aitch, that is actually fairly offensive

<ex> nursery worker here

GiantSquirrelSpotter Tue 29-May-07 12:09:59

I wasn't intimating that all nursery staff are thick. Just that nursery management finds it easier to treat them as if they are. Just as schools find it easier to treat all parents as if they are. Just as the government finds it easier to treat their citizens as if they are.

It seems to be the default attitude when dealing with any organisation nowadays. They go for the lowest common denominator.

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 12:10:14

bored - surely, though, you want your children to grow up feeling responsible for the feelings they inflict upon others? Since that is the basis of moral conduct. And how better to do so than with the mother, the most trusted person in a child's life?

kittypants Tue 29-May-07 12:11:04

ds was labelled naughty by family members and his nusery! at very young age and is still very challenging which i think partly comes from being told he is naughty-he just lives up to his label.i try to say what i dont like about what hes doing.my mum my say-'stop that its naughty' and id try to say 'its not knid to push your sister'and say why.
btw we have a thinking step.
i use to work in a preschool and we also did this but never forced our views on the parents.

oh I disagree, I think it is very important to explain to children the consequences of their actions.
i.e. if you do this, it hurts my feelings or it makes me very cross because X.
how else will they learn about consequences and about other's feelings?

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 12:11:39

Boredveryverybored - I tell my DD1, who has SNs that it makes mummy sad when she smacks her sister / friends. It seems to me the most logical way of explaining things to her. I tell her that pushing is dangerous. I reinforce the schools rule of 'kind hands' and so in line with kind hands I talk about making people happy so when she is "naughty" i talk about it making people sad. I don't think I'm damaging her or doing anything really wrong, I'm hopefully making her understand something in a clear way?? Who knows, I'm just doing my best really and hoping it's OK!

GiantSquirrelSpotter Tue 29-May-07 12:11:46

LOL at craving a primeval punishment buzz

Yes yes yes!

kittypants Tue 29-May-07 12:12:43

btw aitch i do find your post re nursery workers offensive.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 12:14:26

If my DD thropws a toy I would say 'no, no throwing, it's dangerous to throw' and then move her on to something else. She has been what is called a 'caster' her whole life and always thrown everything. I try and make her understand why it's not acceptable to thropw rather than just label it naughty.

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:14:52

LOL! so why aren't you working in a nursery any more, frank? come on... you can't have it all ways.
there's hatrick's neice uncovering all sorts on one thread and now we're expecting nursery staff to be able to tutor children in 'it's not the word that's bad per se, it's the attaching of the word to your friend henrietta that is, ur, wrong, well, not wrong exactly, but not right... so you can by all means call the fact that she is throttling you by the neck 'naughty' but do not call her 'naughty'...'?

much more likely the nursery nurse will say 'tarquin, don't call henrietta naughty, we don't use that word here' and hence the translation to speedymama.

I suggest you go over to Nannyjob & start a "Nursery workers aren't the sharpest pencils in the box" thread!

hunkermunker Tue 29-May-07 12:16:02

You're tedious, Speedymama.

Stop being tedious, Speedymama.

Does either of those make you feel better, SM?

FioFio Tue 29-May-07 12:17:05

hello my nursery worker is here helping me with the children and she has 10 gcses, all c's and above, 3 a levels all above c, an nvq 3 and is one year into a childcare degree

she wanted me to tell you all

she is naughty

pinkum Tue 29-May-07 12:18:55

we saw my inlaws for the first time last week and the step mother kept calling my 6 month old naughty, how can you be at that age? and hes actually brilliantly behaved. what a wierdo

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:19:42

lolol. i've just been going round a zillion nurseries to find one that would have room for dd. they're all booked up, regardless of how bright or otherwise i've found the staff. what do i care whether they've got a phd or not, they just have to be good and kind to dd? tell you what, nursery workers are huffy, that's for sure. but to be perfectly honest having been round about ten in the last two months i haven't found the staff there to a danger to Stephen Hawking. just my experience, of course...

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 12:20:07

Hunkermunker [yawn]

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 12:21:11

this thread is turning quite amusing

hunkermunker Tue 29-May-07 12:22:53

You're sleepy, SM.

Stop being sleepy, SM.

cheekymonk Tue 29-May-07 12:24:33

I really do think this contempt for nursery staff is out of order. I'm sure some are apathetic and not much cop at their job as can be said of all professions. Lets acknowledge though that it isn't always easy looking after children but it is one of the most worthwhile things in the world!

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 12:27:12

I think there are some pitfalls with the "you are making mummy sad" line

but ds is shouting in my ear so I can't exactly identify what it is I mean

shall I tell him he is making everyone on MN sad?

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:27:12

oh stop it, no one's showing contempt for nursery workers. i loved mine, i distinctly remember. you're being, er, tetchy.

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 12:28:57

and as to why I am not working there any more Aitch, well it wasn't because I was asked to leave because I was making the other workers feel inferior with my enormous intellect, if that was what you were worried about

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:29:09

i don't like the sad thing myself, it's a bit creepy and needy i think. 'mummy is goiing to get upset' i don't mind, however. although dd is only 17 months so at the moment we don't get much further than 'no, no, NOOOO' and throwing ourselves between the falling glassware and the child.

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:29:51

lol, franny, they chucked you out because of your wobbly upper arms, i heard.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 12:30:03

What dreadful snobs some of you are.

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:31:07

who? who, loveangel? do you mean me?

Mhamai Tue 29-May-07 12:31:09

Your all grounded!

Aitch Tue 29-May-07 12:31:45

thank you, i agree. i think i am very grounded, mhamai.

Mhamai Tue 29-May-07 12:32:28

Pah! away to the thinking step the lot of you!

UnquietDad Tue 29-May-07 12:34:10

We try to say "that was naughty" rather than "YOU ARE naughty", but don't always manage it! There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the word. Sometimes children ARE naughty. It's a fact. And they need to be told, I think.

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 12:34:39

I think the consequences thing is right, for instance what Thomcat described: "we don't hit because it hurts and makes your sister sad"

but there is the other kind where it is used to control behaviour "if you don't stop throwing your peas on the floor it will make mummy very sad"

<struggling to express thoughts over very loud whistle being played in my ear, which is making me quite sad to tell you the truth>

Mhamai Tue 29-May-07 12:35:11

I love being told I'm naughty but that's a different thread!

cheekymonk Tue 29-May-07 12:36:51

Yes f & Z totally agree! Well put!
Well Aitch I am not tetchy, I just thought you were being a bit superior but there we go I have said my piece and shall leave it there!

UnquietDad Tue 29-May-07 12:37:04

mhamai - oo-er!!!

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 12:37:43

'Naughty'...not exactly 'stupid evil bastard child of mine!' is it? Take a chill pill or ten, please.

Mhamai Tue 29-May-07 12:37:46

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 12:38:51

Now now, Aitch wasn't being superior, her behaviour was superior

err......

cheekymonk Tue 29-May-07 12:39:56

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 12:40:29

I don't use the emotive stuff - I can't blame DD for ME being sad - that seems rather guilt-inducing

I often say "How would you feel if <you were victim>"

Actually I go for comedy a lot really - I say things like "That's REALLY driving me BANANAS" with annoying toys and whinging which DD thinks is hysterically funny

Also I bark and have a Terrible Look for Serious Moments

"You make mummy feel sad" - I feel should be answered with "Stay there mummy and I'll bring you another Valium"

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 12:42:49

Sometimes the reason ds should stop doing something IS because of how it makes me feel, though

there is no earthly reason why he shouldn't blow his ruddy whistle all day except that it is annoying me

Mhamai Tue 29-May-07 12:42:58

Or smellling salts, oh no, that would be my naughty thread fantasy again!

beckybrastraps Tue 29-May-07 12:43:21

Yes Franny! That's what I meant earlier. I can't remember why or in what context I said it to dd, but I do remember that she kept on seeking reassurance that I was "happy now".

I do say naughty though. And I am a pinko liberal.

Mhamai Tue 29-May-07 12:44:40

Being Irish, pinko liberal is alien. What in fact is a pinko lib?

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 12:45:06

F&Z - you are completely right to distinguish between 1. explaining feelings and their consequences and 2. using emotional blackmail to achieve behavioural outcomes.

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 12:46:44

I am pinko and hand wringing and all that and I have said naughty as well

and ds does the "are you happy now mummy?" thing

but I know this is not ideal, and try to find different and better ways of dealing with discipline

morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 12:47:00
morningpaper Tue 29-May-07 12:47:54
Lazycow Tue 29-May-07 12:48:38

I believe the problem with saying things like ' You are making mummy sad' is that responsibility for your emoptions is placed on the child. I think it is better to say 'Mummy feels sad when she sees ...'. that way the emotions are described to the child but blame for them is not specifically laid at their door.

For what it's worth I do think helping children recognise how they are feeling and any natural consequences of their actions is the way to help them develop their emotional intelligence. Yhe first step to doing that is to label feelings and to point out natural consequences of actions rather than telling them off for 'bad behaviour'. In the long term I think it does pay off

All a bit academic really when most of the time I tend to scream 'ffs stop doing that !!' like ademented harridan.

The theory is all well and good but none of us are perfect.

And Speedymamma - Your post made me LOL actually becauae I think I am many of the things you described but I do sometimes think I am up my own arse a lot of the time and when I sit down and think I really do not believe it matter one jot if you call your child naughty occasionnally, though I do try to avoid it if I can.

(Says the mother who's 2.5 year old shouted 'ffs' the other day at the department store - he didn't learn it from no no sireee... no not me ...)

Mhamai Tue 29-May-07 12:49:15

And you don't read the mail? Am I on the right track? God thank God I'm over here.

PrincessPeaHead Tue 29-May-07 12:54:58

its funny - I don't use the word naughty at all, I just don't like the feel of it. I certainly don't say "you are a naughty boy", nor do I say "scribbling on walls is naughty" or "stop being naughty". I tend to use very specific language - "we do NOT scribble on walls, we only draw on paper" (complete with hard stare lol) etc.

I do use the word silly, as in "now that's a bit silly isn't it" - probably when they are being naughty though!

I just don't like the word naughty, I feel it slightly labels them as something bad when actually they are being children.

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 12:56:30

how was the Wales's visit Minty?

PrincessPeaHead Tue 29-May-07 12:58:39

oh just read a bit more of this humungous thread

I NEVER say "you are making mummy sad" either, I don't really do guilt trips.

Am I a complete wierdo for just explaining why they shouldn't do what they are doing instead of using labels like naughty etc? "Please stop blowing that whistle, it is annoying me. If you want to keep blowing it can you go into the garden" "Please do NOT hit your sister on the head with that tractor, it hurts her. If you do it again I'm going to have to take the tractor away"

I've never thought about it, it is just what I do. I'm sure there are 8 books written about why that is wrong, but ho hum

zizou Tue 29-May-07 12:59:01

Don't like "naughty": it's not a useful word...it's non-specific and moralistic. I think the nursery are right, and if they use other words, that's great. Tetchy is good! Hate the making mummy sad thing too, find that really obnoxious. Agree with separating behaviour from person, though don't think you are doing this speedy, and have certainly not always succeeded in doing this myself as although am definitely pinko campanologist have v short fuse and fail often in my lofty parenting ideals.

PrincessPeaHead Tue 29-May-07 12:59:42

oh shit jools I haven't even looked at the blog for a fortnight

I've been on heavy duty nursing duty after ds2s tonsil/adenoid/grommit op a week ago (he is only just beginning to eat again poor little thing)

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 13:01:10

been there, seen it, done it!

it's awful for them no?

oh well, when you've a minute I'm gagging for the next instalment

hope lo is soon well

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:05:22

Well I don't use 'naughty' but you're making me rethink the telling her that hitting kids at school makes mummy sad.

It just all tied in with the using 'kind hands' that the school uses, and making people happy etc. I think it started when I ws chatting to her about her behaviour and she looked at me and said 'mummy cross????' so I responded without having time to think and said 'no, not cross, but mummy sad when charloote smacks'. Maybe I should rethink it then, never thought of it as making her feel guilty.

Having a child with SN's you soemtimes have to use key words over and over to make them grasp the message, I thought that making her realise that her negative actions made people sad and that would be better than visualising people angry with her. A lot of the time I have to discuss her behaviour after the event with her as it's happening at school when i am not around.

PrincessPeaHead Tue 29-May-07 13:09:18

it is interesting isn't it TC. What about telling her that it makes whoever she has hit, sad? That makes much more sense to me. I think it is completely fine to say "don't hit George, it hurts him and makes him sad", I just don't personally get "don't hit George, it hurts him and it makes Mummy sad". For me, personally, that is a bit removed and I think they should learn the direct consequences of their actions, not the sort of indirect effect on people's views of them, expectations etc.

I suppose it is more about taking responsibility for what they do and not changing behaviour because of other people's expectations (all connected with self-esteem and conscience etc)

Does that make sense?

aviatrix Tue 29-May-07 13:10:23

"As a child, when my parents told me that I was being naughty, I took notice. Now my 3yo DTS read me the riot act. Well, I will not be dictated to by a toddler and if that makes me a dinosaur in terms of modern day parenting, so be it".

From the above speedymama it seems as though you are completely sorted and happy.

Do I think yabu? Yes actually seeing as you ask. I always feel uncomfortable when battle lines are drawn - as in not being dictated to by a toddler. Are they dictating to you or just telling you how things are done at a place you are happy to send them?

zizou Tue 29-May-07 13:11:15

Thomcat - I think with the hitting thing it's better to concentrate on the effect on the person who is hit. It's a bit abstract - her hitting someone and then you feeling sad - it's more that hitting HURTS people and therefore is a bad thing, iyswim. I think in general the clearer the cause and effect is explained, without adding in unnecesary moralistic/guilt inducing things, the better. But I am so far from being able to do this myself, and I don't even have kids with SN. .

PinkTulips Tue 29-May-07 13:14:40

am living in ireland with a very irish dp and the world bold (pronounced bow-ald ) gets great use.

that said we do use naughty on occasion 'dd it is very naughty to hit ds with that stick and he's sad now, say sorry please' (although this is usually uttered after the initial screech of 'o jesus stop!'.... it takes me a few seconds to supernanny myself up )

can understand the principal if it's a continous thing... the child being told every single day that they are naughty however i think some things are bad enough to warrent the child feeling bad for a minute. tbh i think sending the poor child on a guilt trip 15 times a day by saying how disappointed/sad/upset you are by their behaviour must surely be more damaging?

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:15:54

Yes, I do tell it makes her friends sad but as I'm never quite sure who it is she has 'flicked', then it's a bit tricky. I say 'it makes your friends sad' and then drop in it makes mummy sad as then I say that I want her to make people happy so she is happy and we can do nice thignes together after school. I've never really thought about it before but I'll be rethinking how I word things after this. We have 2 weeks off school now so perfect time for me to change things for when she goes abck after the break.

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 13:17:15

I do think there are few things more toxic to a small child than maternal disappointment.

I am liking pph's posts on this thread. There is a definite difference between "consequence" and "punishment" IMO, and you don't need to be (or pretend to be) angry/frightening/disappointed for a child to to learn from his behaviour.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 13:19:29

agreed, greensleeves. think of the people you've heard say 'i don't mind when my mother's angry, it's when she puts on her disappointed face i can't bear'. clearly it works, but it's very negative.

(and if that makes me a dinosaur, so be it. )

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:22:25

Great, think I might step away as I'm obviously a "toxic" mother who has damaged her SN's child further with trying to make her understand that she can't hit other poeple

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 13:25:01

Message withdrawn

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 13:28:06

i don't think that's what anyone's saying, tc. plus any toxicity is slow-acting, i reckon, not immediately fatal. i think that being disappointed in people who love you is a very efficient way to make them bend to your will, that sort of passive agression is harmful in the long term. i really don't think that's the same as teaching a child that their behaviour has an effect on others, iyswim?

Greensleeves Tue 29-May-07 13:39:50

I wasn't getting at you specifically Thomcat, nor would I. I haven't got a clue how to bring up a child with SN. And if you'd seen any of my threads over the past few months you'd know I am far from a perfect parent and don't consider myself to be one.

I do stand by my point that maternal disappointment is toxic to small children though. It's something I'm quite fervent about.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 13:43:06

I think it is to do with it being very very hard for children to cope with feeling responsible for an adults feelings.

Don't use naughtly - do use similar to pph.

"X doesn't like it when you take his toys." or even better "We ask to share toys." rather than "don't snatch it is naughty."

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 13:44:04

Gooooood Goooood!! Listen to you all! I'm splitting my farking sides here!

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 13:45:00

What about forced apologies? My dds playgroup do that and I bloody hate it. My wee girlused to apologise straight from the heart unasked. Now she sing songs "sor - ry"

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:45:46

ok, thanks Greensleves. Just hormonal and being a parent is bloody hard and scary sometimes and as a mother to a child with SN's it's all so unknown and different and extra scary. I have no idea what I'm doing half the time I just have to close my eyes and hope now and then and hope we comethrougth the latest thing unscathed! I do get your point that letting your child think they are a disappointment over the years will be damagaing, but I really don't think that's what I've been doing. However I am going to rethink how I handle things from now on keeping the words naughty and now sad out of it!

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 13:46:11

Message withdrawn

Well, I don't tend to use the word naughty or silly whether about the behaviour or the person (not sure the difference is picked up by the child tbh).It was never a decision but perhaps comes from my background in working with individuals with severely challenging behaviour and how to approach behavioural problems.

I also dislike the 'making mummy sad' thing.

Firstly, a child is not responsible for my emotions when they can barely understand or control their own and secondly, I am not sad, I am cross or annoyed so thats a bit of a pointless thing to say anyway and doesn't convey anything to a child.

Try asking your child to do something positive rather than point out the negative.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 13:47:14

i really don't think that's what you've been doing either, tc.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:47:44

oh my goodness, now we're on to forced apologies! Oh lord, am I going to feel bad all over again. I make Lottie say sorry when she has whacked Eve over the head with a recorder, is that now deemed damaging and bad parenting???!!!

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:49:47

Have to say I agree with that post Annie. When I was a teenager the things that stopped me doing really bad things was the thought that I would disappoint my mum. Anger I could handle, she'd get over it, but that look of disappointment stopped be doing many a terrible thing as a teen.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 13:49:53

You are not cocooning them from the consequences. That is a bollocks conclusion. If a another child is sad from the result then it can be pointed out. That is a natural consequence. Saying Mummy is sad because you won't put your pyjamas on is nonsense and controlling.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 13:51:34

TC do you think it is because your mother used the disapointed face only when absolutely necessary? If she had used it when you didn't eat your peas or didn't tidy up it wouldn't have been so effective no?

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 13:53:36

Message withdrawn

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:53:51

so... if a child is not responsible for your emotions doesn't that still mean that can't be responsible for you feeling cross / annoyed etc? I do get that making your child feel they are a dissappontment is damaging and I am going to rethink saying to her that smacking other kids makes me sad, but is it really so much worse that saying i'm cross with her?

ZacheryQuack Tue 29-May-07 13:54:36

Have glanced through the thread and for whatever reason I don't like the word naughty. I think it grates on me the way the word poorly grated on people in another thread a few weeks ago.

And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't tell DS and DD they were naughty, or that what they were doing was naughty. I'm more likely to say silly, or say that we don't (hit, draw on walls, delierately ride over someone's toe) in our family.

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 13:54:44

Message withdrawn

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 13:56:16

ProjectIcarus - LOL, yes of course, and I'd never let DD1 think I was disappointed in her for anything other than hitting other kids which at 5 is about as bad as it gets with her. I'd never use the 'sad' for anything else than this. But I'm rethinking that now anyway.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 13:57:15

i wonder if it's partly because the world is such a confusing place, so if you're sad because your child walloped someone (rather than the walloppee being justifiably sad) then what happens when you're sad the next time becasue of somehting that has nothing to do with teh cahild? can they separate themselves from your sadness? i suppose i'm thinking of DH who always said he felt responsible for his parents' divorce because his mum was sad and he knew that she had been sad when he'd broken her vase...ergo. poor wee lad.

ZacheryQuack Tue 29-May-07 13:58:13

And I also don't like the "making Mummy feel sad" thing either.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:03:59

TyrannosaurusRex - but then the same could be said for making mummy cross, no?????

How exactly do you tell a 5 yr old with down's syndrome that pushing or smacking other children and teachers is wrong then? You can't over complicate, need key words, need to reinforce the words that school use and keep it simple but effective. Any suggestions welcome. Do I just say 'Smacking is wrong. Smacking Adam makes him sad, please stop smacking'???

OrmIrian Tue 29-May-07 14:04:17

I don't think I've ever said' don't do X, it makes Y sad'. I've said that if one of my children has said or done something obviously hurtful or rude, such as 'I don't like granny being in our house'. But if a child does something dangerous or careless I'd tell them not to do it because it was dangerous or careless and the consequences might be X or Y. In most cases my 'sadness' is irrelevant.

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:04:40

Message withdrawn

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:05:11

Or do I not mention the negative at all and just say 'Can Charlotte show Adam her kind hands'??? (they use kind hands at school which is where I'm getting that from)

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:06:27

Annie - pmsl - I've no idea you couldn't say cross! I just wondered if saying cross was actaully as bad as saying sad?!! I'm utterly confused myself now, lol!

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:06:48

think so tc

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:08:31

But it does make me sad when she samcks other kids, not cross, i'm sad about it!

It's the ONLY time I ever use the word with ehr, I NEVER use sad other than when she has samcked another child, which btw only started 1 week ago!

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:08:57

Message withdrawn

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:09:10

ProjectIcarus - which one do you think so to? !!

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:10:26

kind hands - one handed bf here sorry if abrupt.

Lazycow Tue 29-May-07 14:10:36

I don't think saying you are angry is the same as saying you are disappointed or sad.

Anger comes (generally) from fear and frustration - Something a small child understands very well. Saying 'Mummy gets annoyed/angry when she has to ask you lots of time to do <whatever> is IMO just giving honest information to your child and tells them you are having a reaction to their behaviour.

Obviously the best solution to the above scenario is not losing your temper, the second best in my opinion is the above example, the worst one is pretending you aren't annoyed or trying to behave as if you aren't until you can't take it any more and then exploding.

I think the problem with saying that a child's behaviour makes us sad is that it is often not an honest reponse but one that tries to get a reaction or to make a child behave in a certain way. Saying we are angy is usually honest because it is so much less acceptable to be angry so we generally only say it if it is true.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:10:42

This is so funny and very mad!

Next time she comes homw with her report saying she's smacked again I think i'll just throw myself under the bed and not come out till DP gets home and he can deal with it!

Lazycow Tue 29-May-07 14:11:20

TC - if it does actually make you sad - I think that is fine to say actually.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:11:49

ProjectIcarus - thanks - yes I think you're rright actually. Think concentrate on positive behaviour rather then go back over negative. OK, thanks

oliveoil Tue 29-May-07 14:12:18

208 messages to discuss 'naughty'!!!

FGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop overanalysing ffs

sheesh

FGS

ffs

ARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

<<gets noose down again>>>

TC, say what you like!

My Mother shouted loud enough for the whole street to hear, I don't think she was toxic!

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:13:49

i'd have thought that's what you'd say, yes, tc. it's a lot to think about isn't it?
personally i don't think i'll have a problem saying 'stop doing x or y' and then when the child doesn't warn her that i'm goiing to get upset with her if she doesn't stop. that's my friend's approach and it works well. but then she doesn't threaten to get upset very often, so probably choosing your moment is key. the sad thing just gives me the heebie-jeebies, tbh. and the disappointed thing, well, it's pretty negative i reckon. i don't remember my parents doiing it. that's not to say i didn't want to disappoint them, or that the thought of their being disappointed didn't alter my behaviour, but i'm glad they didn't have a special face for the occasion.

as it happens, dd is very fond of pretending to cry at the moment (she says 'cry, cry' like a total drama queen) so the most efficient way to get her to be careful when climbing dangerously on furniture at teh moment is to say 'be careful, you'll cry cry if you fall' and that seems to stop her. she's too yougn for much huge disobedience at the moment, so we've got it all to come. thanks for the email btw.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:16:21

OO - we're discussing 'sad' now actuallY

Oooh only just caught up with this, I don't think I explained what I meant very well! I don't have a problem with telling a child that for eg hitting another child willmake them sad or will upset them. Of course they need to know and understand that their actions have consequences and effect other people.
It's the vague 'calm down or you'll make mummy cry' 'stop shouting or you'll make mummy sad' thing I have a problem with and I hear it a lot.I just can't help but think those kids are going to grow up feeling too much responsibility for their mums feelings. So if mum is upset they automatically think it's their fault dykwim?
I grew up with it, took me until my late teens to learn that my mums feelings arn't all my fault.

oliveoil Tue 29-May-07 14:18:10

I told dd2 she was a pain in the arse yesterday (under my breath and it was 3am so justified imo)

honestly, you are all fab mums, stop fretting about so much

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:18:40

Aha - hello and you're welcome

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:19:00

see, that's what i think happened to DH, bored. it pretty much stinks, i think.

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:20:15

Message withdrawn

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:20:30

yes, OO, but did you say that her being a pain in teh arse was making you sad...?

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:21:20

and that is Bonkers, anniemac. why can't parents cry? mind you, my mum blubbed when John Lennon got shot...

oliveoil Tue 29-May-07 14:21:33

Her inablility to sleep in her own cot was making me very sad

naughty cot

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:22:06

did you both hit the cot in order to teach it a Valuable Lesson?

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:25:07

Message withdrawn

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:25:10

The reactions people have to this are interesting. I read parenting books and examine my behaviour and how it impacts my children because my parents were mostly appalling frankly. I have to read books etc because I have very little
idea what a nice normal way to parent is.

I suspect that those whose parents were pretty much fine don't do this because they have a nice framework built in.

Those who have children with special needs possibly examine things more closely because the one size fits all parenting style well, doesn't fit.

<Prays not to offend>

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:26:09

Message withdrawn

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:28:03

"Almost nothing upsets a child more & makes them feel more insecure than seeing a parent cry."
is that true? i remember seeing my mum cry and knowing that if i gave her a cuddle it would help, and that she would explain to me why she was sad etc etc. i never reflected any of that onto myself. not that my mum cried a lot, i should say, but we had a lot of deaths in the family, including a young cousin, and i do remember seeing her upset about that. it would have been weird not to, imho.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:29:02

No indeed. Naughty step sticker charts etc complete bollocks.

Oh I don't agree Annie, I think it's healthy for a child to see their parent cry at some point.Obviously not all time!
My dd has seen me cry, it didn't upset her, she was concerned about me and I explained to her why I was sad and that I just needed to have a little cry to make me feel better.
A good message to give her I thought,no?

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:29:23

Message withdrawn

I want her to know that if she feels like she needs to cry, is upset etc then its perfectly norml and ok to do it.

I don't like labelling. However, we are a million things, aren't we. So, I'm funny, I'm sad, I'm generous, I'm optimistic, but I can also be obnoxious, in a bad mood, and naughty (but I don't like this word, and luckily I can use Italian terms that mena a bit more to me). My children as well.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:31:16

agree with bored. Parents should show their feelings so children understand that parents get upset/sad/angy etc. But it should be made clear why the parent is upset so the child cannot presume it is their fault.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:31:19

ProjectIcarus - I'm massively offened. NOT!

I do have to have a clear conversation with DD1 about her behaviour and use key words and I'm never sure what goes in really! I seriously thought helping her to understand that hitting people made me sad was better than tlling her it made me cross as tbh I wasn't cross with her, I felt sad so without sitting and having a long think I reacted on instinct at that moment, it was a then and there moment. Her samcking people made me feel sad. I also talked about using kind hands and makign people happy and always cuddle her after and say 'that was a nice cuddle wasn't it, that makes mummy happy' to reinforce the whole message.

Ohh this discipline lark is hard work!

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:31:46

Message withdrawn

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 14:31:56

ProjectIcarus - completely agree about naughty step, sticker charts etc. Children learn from parents what is and what isn't desirable behaviour from role modelling and clear and reasonable explanation IME.

anniemac Tue 29-May-07 14:32:47

Message withdrawn

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:34:36

I suppose there are degrees.

You are naughty for hitting.

Hitting people is naughty.

We use kind hands when we touch each other.
X is sad because her face is sore.

I think the last one leaves room for the hitter to make amends in a natural way.

Anna8888 Tue 29-May-07 14:34:37

My mother used to cry quite a lot in front of me and I think it made me anxious and tearful.

My daughter has never been one to cry - she's very robust. But she hates to see me cry.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:35:54

well I don't use a naughty step but I do use the count to 5 thing and it'll all be over and we will move on from this bad behaviour moment and I have given her time to chill out in her room when she has started to get hard to handle and is screaming 'no' at everything and everyone. The school give her 'time out' when she smacks / pushes / shouts too much and I reinforce this at home but only have to say 'that's not nice, no more, finish pushing or Charlotte has time out' and that usually works, don't have to follow through.

TC, what do the school say to your daughter when she smacks others?

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:36:31

Interesting annie. As you say it depends on the overall package doesn't it? I think it is important for children to see their parents experience all kinds of emotions so that they can understand that all kindsof emotions are ok.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:37:26

And what about this 'forced apology' that someone bought up? What about making your child say sorry for hitting? I make DD1 apologise to her sister if I'm in the room and witness it.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:38:17

mind you, i cried big sploshy tears last night when i was reading Peepo! and it was the anniversary of my dad's death (god, that book just gets me). dd just kissed my cheeks and we agreed it was a kinda melancholy book and i told her it made me miss her grandpa (who she never met). i'm sure none of it went in as she's only 17 months, but equally i don't think she was at all upset by it. she didn't look upset, iykwim? just kept shouting 'again again' so i don't think she was overly traumatised.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:38:50

CD - not sure of the exact words they use tbh, I think they might use 'sad' themselves, really not sure but I do know they give her time out for it. Not always easy to use out of school when you are in restaurant, a party, the car.

Mercy Tue 29-May-07 14:39:47

TC - maybe you could say to dd that she shouldn't hit people because it hurts them?


What a mad thread this is!

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:39:48

<ahem> that would be me with the forced apology.

Personally I hate it. Quite possibly unreasonably. Not sure why. Probably because dd used to apologise because she thought she should and now just chants "sor-ry" in a meaningless fashion.

Ah yes PI, I agree there!

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:43:08

LOL at this thread too, it's good, but mad!
I'm now dreading having to tell her off, it's all going to come out as utter gobbledigook and I'm going to either burst into tears under the strain or pmsl! Which will be less damaging?!

I think there are lots of things we say to our kids that if we actually think about what we are saying and what we are trying to convey, it doesn't always make sense.

Why do you have to tell her off though TC? Think about it more like saying what you want her to do rather than what you don't want her to do.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:48:53

so no sympathy for my big sploshy tears then, you bunch of repressed bastards? perhaps your parents should have blubbed more, you'd have been more in touch with your feelings...

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:51:05

Connie that is kind of what I am getting at with the degrees post. The ultimate aim is to turn out adults who behave well and know how to make amends when they don't. Ideally they should behave well because they want to rather than because if they don't they get punished.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 14:52:45

t-rex - that sounded like a nice moment.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 14:57:12

Connie - why do I have to tell her off - well I'm not really telling her off, I'm siting down and speaking with her about hitting her friends at school and trying to get her to stop basically!

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 14:58:47

lol, PI! thanks... have you ever read Peepo!? it's the loveliest book i've ever seen, truly. (just not great for the nostalgically-inclined0.

aviatrix Tue 29-May-07 14:58:54

I have a problem with forced apologies too.

In general though, I think what is much more important than what we say is why we are saying it.

aviatrix Tue 29-May-07 15:00:08

ah, connie - i see you said the same thing more or less - I got about ten posts behind while trying to catch up and should be gardening anyway.

aviatrix Tue 29-May-07 15:01:33

PI were you someone before or are you new?

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 15:01:39

Well if DD1 wallops DD2 round the head for basically daring to breathe near her (!) I'm going to make Dd1 apologise for it and I always make her say 'sorry for hitting'. I really don't care what anyone else thinks of this, I won't change that.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 15:02:14

hve peepo quite like it but it doesn't make me blub.

<racks brains to think of books that do>

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 15:03:04

thomcat, i'm going to have to ask you to apologise for that little show of defiance... [disappointed face]

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 15:03:20

i was someone before

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 15:03:42

it's the granny's hatpin... lol, it's exactly like my grandma. she was never without a hat on outside.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 15:05:55

I will apologise Lottie style - TC screws up face, looks up to the corner of the room, does the sign for sorry while muttering it, then grabs TyrannosaurusRex in a sort of head lock embrace and squeezes her for a moment in an attempt at a cuddle!

aviatrix Tue 29-May-07 15:06:54

clues...clues!!

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 15:09:35

i was a married covering garment. like the new one better.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 15:10:14

perfect, tc, what a lovely girl you are! <plonks kiss on fast-retreating head>

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 15:10:53

weddingdress? was there a weddingdress?

PrincessPeaHead Tue 29-May-07 16:47:41

(thomcat I make my children apologise to the dogs if they pull their ears or stand on them or are otherwise nasty. It is v funny to see them standing there looking the long-suffering dog in the eye and saying "I'm sorry I pulled your ears, Noodle" )

TC you are clearly a completely fabulous mum (and you know I don't go in much for that sort of compliment) so please don't let this thread get you down! I'm sorry if you thought I was criticising, I was really just musing. Pax?

pointydog Tue 29-May-07 17:03:28

not read thread, but when dds were small their nursery never used the word 'naughty' either.

Dd2 always used to say 'not nice boy! not nice boy!'

Is that a better alternative? No

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 17:06:43

Makes him sound like a parrot

speedymama Tue 29-May-07 17:07:13

her, sorry

pointydog Tue 29-May-07 17:13:16

yeah, I thought it was very odd and it took me ages to realise she was parrioting the nursery staff. And she was only about 18 months at the time.

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 17:16:17

Read about first 40% of thread so sorry if repeat but re:

"Thanks GiantSquirrel, that is exactly my point. Saying "Stop being naughty" is not the same as saying "you are naughty".

Yes there is a difference between one and the other above (former describing the behaviour, and latter labelling the child) - but I think that linguistic twist whilst quite apparent to an adult is not obvious to a small child who will just hear 'naughty', and no distinction in the meaning.

This is not my argument against using the word 'naughty' btw - since I have and will continue to use it. Just rather my rather rambling way of pointing out that perhaps we all impute far too much significance to this sort of thing than we need to.

My children are really quite extraordinarily good most of the time - so occasionally describing them as 'naughty' does not appear to have become a self fulfilling prophecy in their case.

I often feel that parenting has become too 'academic' / theoretical....

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 17:35:07

yes it has

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 17:39:35

Oh FGS!

<<SD shakes head in disgust and wanders off muttering "what a load of twaddle" under her breath without reading much past the first/last few posts or so>>

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 17:42:58

So where do you 'sit' on this debate Soupdragon out of curiousity?

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 17:44:55

That unless you are calling your child something along the lines of "a worthless piece of sh*t" and drumming it into them that they are a useless example of humanity then you're not going to damage them.

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 17:48:06

lol, I'm with you on that one!

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 17:54:52

I received the occasional smack as a child andI'm pretty damn sure I was referred to as "naughty" on manny an occasion ans was probably "made" to apoligise for stuff but I still turned into a well rounded individual (emotionally speaking, I'm not physically well rounded )

Twiglett Tue 29-May-07 17:55:47

I'm with Soupy

off to read thread and OP now (have only read title and Soupy's post)

Twiglett Tue 29-May-07 17:57:23

have now read OP and have to say can't be arsed reading thread but STILL AGREE WITH SOUPY

FioFio Tue 29-May-07 17:58:20

I agree with soupdragon aswell

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 17:59:55

It's sad when middle class mothers have so little left to obssess over that they have to invent this pile of poo to worry about. No child on God's sweet earth will ever grow up to tell their parents that being called 'a naughty boy ' was what triggered their failure to sustain intimate relationships/obssessive-compulsive-disorder/serial killer tendencies etc etc. Promise you.

JoolsToo Tue 29-May-07 18:07:46

Twig - there is another thread linked further down - you're on that and I, I agree with you!

Twiglett Tue 29-May-07 18:22:14

you see now Jools .. now I'm going to have to go through thread to find link .. and then I'm going to have to go through old thread to read what I put ..

hang on a few hours I'm going in

Mercy Tue 29-May-07 18:32:09

I was hoping you'd turn on up here Twiglett!

Gobbledigook Tue 29-May-07 18:33:07

And get this Twig, even I agreed with you!!

Gobbledigook Tue 29-May-07 18:34:01

Is it worse to say, through gritted teeth - 'you are getting on my nerves'?

My poor boys

Twiglett Tue 29-May-07 18:34:17

oh I was very sensible and eloquent on that thread wasn't I

<snigger>



GDG you always agree with me don't you?

Gobbledigook Tue 29-May-07 18:34:41

Aye!

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 19:11:29

am hating this 'middle class' bullshit, loveangel, you're making a lot of assumptions. some people on here have been upfront about their own rather less than brilliant parents and if they want to think about the way they speak to their children then it's up to them.

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 19:28:42

Saying "don't be naughty" is not going to scar them for life or cause negative thoughts/behaviour and it's not going to make you a less-than-brilliant parent.

Repeatedly screaming "you evil little sh*t", however, probably would.

There's a world of difference between telling a child off and effectively verbally/mentally abusing them. There's only one reason that people think saying a child is being naughty is, er, naughty and that's because some "expert" has told them so.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 19:44:56

Hate it all you like T-Rex, but my opinion is that this is really a horrendously self indulgent thread.

Naughty? NAUGHTY? There's thinking about how you raise your children... and then there is navel gazing of epic proportions.

(And it certainly doesn't follow that because I think this is a complete non-issue, I don't think about how I am bringing up my child)

noonar Tue 29-May-07 19:53:12

ok, i much prefer words which DESCRIBE what is wrong with the behaviour eg 'that was a rough/ unkind/ unhelpful thing to do....please be more gentle/ help me tidy up instead of pouring the paint on the floor' etc etc


we talk alot about "hurting peoples' feelings " in my house, which dds aged 2 and 5 use to explain their own emotions too.

however, i do resort to 'naughty' with dd2 at times, out of shere frustration. but i actually really dislike the word. as it doesnt tell the child where they went wrong, does it?

i also hate the 'naughty step 'terminology, but that's another thread.

Pan Tue 29-May-07 19:56:44

fgs....296 posts on the word 'naughty'.....slow day then.....

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 20:04:28

"Naughty? NAUGHTY? There's thinking about how you raise your children... and then there is navel gazing of epic proportions. "

PMSL - am loving that quote!

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 20:28:05

don't get your knickers in a twist, oh upper or working class loveangel. i think, and have always said, that the nursery is most likely to have told staff not to use the word naughty and to tell the children not to call each other naughty. which, for the record, i agree with. i don't want other people calling my child naughty. they can call her behaviour naughty, but i don't want any 'you naughty girl' stuff.

as it happens, there was a girl at my primary school who was known as the naughty one. her name was particia and she lived in a childrens' home and now that i look back i don't think she was naughty particularly, but she was often grubbier than the rest of us and a bit of a loner, so i now wonder how much what the teacher thought of her in advance and what we all knew of her fed into her behaviour. even if it didn't, the poor kid didn't need another label to add to all the other ones.

so it seems much more likely that the nursery has a policy (or even something less official) and the children aren't allowed to call each other names and that the OP's children have seized with great delight on her doing something 'wrong', that's all.

that led to an interesting discussion on what words might be more helpful and which ones less so. brilliant that soupy and anniemac etc were called naughty by their parents and lived to tell the tale, emotionally. i'm sure i was too.

but i don't want a nursery institutionalising an idea in my child, and it's not behaviour that sits right by me, ideally. i'm certain that when i've lost the rag with dd on the odd occasion i have called her naughty and it's been a helpful discussion today to make me stop and think the next time. and pmsl at the idea of there being no navel-gazing on MN, it's all navel-gazing... each of us should/could be off doing something far more productive than typing into a computer...

Pan Tue 29-May-07 20:30:27

"each of us should/could be off doing something far more productive than typing into a computer....."

Really?? You make joke, surely??

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 20:31:06

and i don't care if you all think i'm a dinosaur for saying it, etc etc etc. (please will someone laugh at my hilarious name-change/! )

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 20:33:00

<mutters> (well, it's a loose thread that's best left untugged, Pan, lest our whole virtual world unravel...)

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 20:33:40

I'm sorry but nothing you can say will persuade me that calling a child 'naughty' every now and then is going to set up some sort of awful self fulfilling prophecy - not even the sob story about the grubby childrens home kid.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 20:37:42

hhmm, you don't sound very sorry... and it was hardly a sob story, i was just thinking about a child i went to school with. that really was bitchy behaviour from you, loveangel. (please note i did not say you were a bitch).

Pan Tue 29-May-07 20:40:16

How about agreeing to not pick at this thing and let it go, eh? And have a nice cup of tea.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 20:47:15

i have a nice cup of tea here, Pan.
just to be clear, my point about the girl i went to school with was relevant to the fact that i think institutions should have rules.
because while Soupy, Anniemac and yes, even me were capable of sustaining being called naughty and not letting fracture our self-image, i think that she actually wasn't.

plus, another adult calling my child naughty just doesn't sit right with me... does it really with everyone else? i'd tell my close friends' kids off, 'stop doing that, i've told you that's off limits etc etc etc' but i wouldn't dream of calling them a name. i think that's a step beyond what i'd be comfortable saying (or hearing someone else say, tbh).

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 20:48:21

I'm not sorry, I can be a bitch. I still think this thread is bonkers. Milk & two sugars?

pointydog Tue 29-May-07 20:52:04

Har! 'Milk and two sugars' is code for 'call the police' for a headteacher I know.

What has gone wrong with this thread

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 20:55:15

actually, i'm middle class, loveangel, so i've got my lady grey here with no milk or sugar... would you like one? it's basically just a Hot Orange, i've recently decided. i think i don't really like tea... want one?

and seriously... what if i called your children 'naughty'? would that be okay? cos that's what i think is the equivalent of being told that in nursery.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 21:00:17

pmsl@pointydog. Brilliant. I love weird codes.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 21:03:39

Strictly PG tips (brewed so strong you could stand on it) in my household, T-Rex, but thanks anyway.

I wouldn't object to you telling my son he was naughty if he had done something naughty. If you were systematically destroying his confidence by calling him name after name and generally behaving inappropriately towards him, then no - I wouldn't like it. But a generally kind, decent, resposnsible adult telling my son off for doing something naughty/silly etc? No problem with it.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 21:03:57

PPH, thank you so much and I didn't think you were critising me, in fact it was your post that made me question myself in a good way, so no need to apologise at all

crunchie Tue 29-May-07 21:04:55

My kids are so screwed I have said they are
Naught
Mean
unkind
Little Madams
Bullies
Nightmares
Real pain in the backsides
little devils
etc etc

I have also said they are
Fantastic
Clever
Beautiful
Brilliant
Great at drawing
Creative
Artistic
The best little girl in the world
Priness
etc etc

So will they grow up with horns or halo???

So

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:05:50

well then it's really a question of what we find appropriate, loveangel. i would be really pissed off if my pal called my dd a 'naughty girl', i really would. that's bang out of order for me.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 21:07:33

lolllll I'm sorry T-Rex I don't mean to mock but 'bang out of order'? You see, you ARE middle class. So very very middle class. Which is cool, its...middle class normal-ness I suppose. I just find it bizarre.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:08:19

'naught' is very strong, imo... oddly enough, pain in the backside is honest, iykwim? because it's your backside. i think saying 'stop doing that noisy thing, it's doing my head in' and things like that are perfectly reasonable.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 21:08:44

great post, crunchie

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 21:09:03

Still splitting my sides

I can't believe how long this has been going on.

What naughty girls you are!

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:10:00

what's wrong with 'bang out of order'? that i don't want anyone insulting my child? honestly, that's got fuck all to do with class. my working class parents wouldn't have let you insult me.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 21:10:10

Desiderata your name makes me hoot every time I read one of your posts. WTF did you chose it?

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 21:11:27

T-Rex I had a rather <ahem> spirited discussion with my mother about calling my wee girl naughty.

{who are you btw?}

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 21:11:58

Because I go placidly amid the noise and haste ..

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 21:12:53

and totally agree with pain in backside, doing my head in all of which have been used by me.

but not bloody naughty it is a crap word. Would you call an adult naughty? Except in a bleugh way?

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:13:09

Aitch. and you are you, wedding garment woman? yeah, my mum has called dd that, which is a bit ridiculous cos she's only 17mths old... we negotiatied it down to 'daft' or 'silly'. i like daft myself.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 21:13:29

Desiderata - you big liar

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:14:05

lol desiderata. carmenere, then, we need to know about that one too...

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 21:14:46

Small point, though. They're children.

I wouldn't call a child an arsehole, but I've no problem calling an adult one.

<I'm wafting off now ... placidly>

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 21:15:02

aha I thought as much(apron) and you wee dafty is quite popular here.

although dh has introduced "you wee nutter" whihc has lead to dd running about shouting "i'm a nutter, i'am a wee nutter"

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 21:15:36

Oh my God, class is coming into this now, pmsl.

And what class are you Loveangel?

Is 'bang out of order' really such a middle class thing to say, how very funny, when I say it in my head I hear it being said by someone with quite a cocknet accent, a bit Harry Enfield stylee.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:17:39

oh LOLOLOL, have just realised that crunchie meant 'naughty' and not 'naught'. i was thinking fucksakes, telling you're kid they're a zero just cos you're pissed off with them is a bit harsh...

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 21:20:26

No no no not the phrase 'bang out of order' ...the fact that anyone could think being called a 'naughty girl/boy' is bang out of order. A comedy sketch in the making, surely? I just can't take it seriously. Sorry.

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 21:25:35

<Wafts back in, placidly>

Couldn't agree more, LA.

Bolleaux.

What would you prefer? Your child saying, 'Mummy, so and so is being naughty,' or 'Mummy, so and so is doing my head in.'

ROFL.

kamikayzed Tue 29-May-07 21:27:16

I refer to behaviour as naughty / cheeky, although I suppose this is just laziness (tiredness) when I could be more specific. I dislike good / bad, it seems judgemental to me...

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 21:28:11

Loveangel _ thought you said bang out of order was middle class? "I'm sorry T-Rex I don't mean to mock but 'bang out of order'? You see, you ARE middle class" ????????

So, out of interest, Loveangel what class are you anyway?

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:29:35

again, i don't think you're sorry at all, but it's an interesting and disingenuous posting tic.
wrt being out of order... fine, didn't we get past this? you don't care if i insult your child and i would fucking rip your head off if you insulted mine.

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 21:30:42

And who on earth would want their head bitten off by a dinosaur?

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:31:34

rrraaaaaargh!

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:33:53

btw, MrsA, since when is an apron a wedding garment?

vixma Tue 29-May-07 21:36:12

I worked for a nursery and I have a child too.I have too admit I used the term naughty until I worked at a very good nursery and was told this was a term they do not use for the same reason. I totally support it but mainly through how I saw how children where treated with such a good attitude, you have a good nursery there, plus I havent used the word since.

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 21:40:09

Out of interest, how many people say "you are naughty" rather than "don't be naughty" or "stop being naughty" or "that's naughty" etc. They're rather different.

ThomCat Tue 29-May-07 21:41:35

If Is aid it I'd say 'don't be naughty please' or 'that's naughty, please stop' something along those lines anyway.

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 21:44:46

I bet no one says "you're naughty". The other phrases simply describe what the child is doing, not what they are and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:47:03

that's exactly my point, soupy. i bet what's happened is that the nursery has tried to institute a policy of dealing with the behaviour, not the child and 'naughty' is a 'casualty' of that, iykwim? then speedy's kids will have been delighted to inform her of that when she used it.
but as it happens i think it's a pretty shit word.. if they're behaving in a disobedient manner then tell them so but naughty? it's a bit milly molly mandy.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:48:49

actually, i also meant to say that i bet the children say 'you're naughty' to each other and the teachers come down on that behaviour.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 21:50:44

I was married as in Mrs and an apron is a covering garment no?
<sighs >

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:51:37

lol, i was thinking that would have been an interesting wedding to attend. the pressure would really have been off for the guests to get a nice outfit...

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 21:53:17

hmmph

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 21:53:43

It's a word like any other (well, maybe not quite any other) and there's nothing wrong with it. Is it really any better to be describing your child('s behaviour) with "disobedient"? (which, incidentally, doesn't trip off the tongue as nicely as naughty).

SoupDragon Tue 29-May-07 21:55:41

Any other word would be perceived just as negatively once it has been used and all the connotations of "naughty" have attached to it. "Look, there's T-Rex, the one who's disobedient" [snigger]

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 21:58:50

"but not bloody naughty it is a crap word. Would you call an adult naughty? Except in a bleugh way?"

Well no I wouldn't call an adult 'naughty' because actually I find it quite a soft, indulgent word appropriate to children. If and adult behaves in an unnacceptable way I would probably call them something a lot stronger

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 21:58:59

well in a way i think the fact that it doesn't trip off the tongue is a good thing. and yes, i just don't like the word naughty. i didn't like being called it, i don't like my mum saying it to dd and if someone in charge of my dd's nursrey called her it i'd be livid. whereas you don't just jump to 'disobedient' do you? you'd kind of have to work up to it, offering them the chance to stop the offending behaviour, because that would be the source of the disobedienct, as it were. plus, i do remember being called that when i was a kid (by my dad, who i now realise never called us naughty despite being Working Class ) and it didn't feel like a long-lasting, stinging rebuke in the way that 'naughty' did. my mother, bless her, has a bad tongue in her head and she used to say things that hurt and being told 'you are a naughty girl' was one of them.

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 22:00:56

we're having two different conversations, soupy. i don't want you saying anythign negative about my child, full stop, if you're their teacher. about their behaviour, if you must, but not my child.
and disobedient is a word i might use to my child, whereas naughty isn't.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 22:08:40

trex you might find this reassuring. (realting to the nurseries thread} but it all kind of fits together with this one i think.

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 22:10:02

See I don't find naughty a soft word At All. I find it pretty harsh and non-descriptive. To me is just says <dons hard hat> Bad.

<ishoos lol>

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:11:10

I conducted a small experiment (it wasn't laboratory conditions) with dd earlier - 4.10. She has been told on occasions that she is 'exceptionally naughty' 'outrageously badly behaved' etc and even "a little sod" (go on, shoot me)...I asked her:

Hmc; "so dd would you say that you are mostly good or mostly naughty"

she reflected...dd: "mostly good" (confident grin)

Hmc; "ummm, just supposing I was to say to you that I think you are mostly naughty, what would you say?"

dd: (with look of righteous indignation) "I would say that I am mostly good"

Hmc: (proud indulgent smile) "actually you are mostly good, very good"

Cue soppy toe curling looks of mutual respect exchanged between hmc and sproglet

Well, I'm happy...

In all seriousness, I am quite sure that my parenting would have some of you take a sharp intake of breath (I bet some of you baulked at 'little sod' but that was in my weaker moments, and more to the point I simply don't believe that you haven't said similar on occasion)...but I know I am raising robust, happy, 'centered', fearless, outspoken individuals.

This is rather difficult to say and I have been sitting on it for some time for fear of causing offence, but I do think some parents are at risk of raising rather 'precious' children ill equipped to deal with the rigours of life

(hmc awaits the roasting that will follow)

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:11:53

Oh heck - did I just press 'post message' ?

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 22:13:26

<throws rock>

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 22:14:27

I don't have much opinion about what you've posted HMC, except that it's nice that your dd is so confident

and a bit of a shame that you feel you have to have a pop at people who do things differently. It doesn't offend me as such but I think it's a shame

(yes you have Made Franny Feel Sad, ok? )

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:15:16

You see - you play rough! despite avoiding the word 'naughty'

My sister was always told how bad she was. She now has 3 kids (all with diffrent children) and a drug problem. I guess she lived up to everyione's expectations

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 22:16:02



it was good what she said, though, wasn't it? Did you have any doubt where you wondered what she might come up with?

FrannyandZooey Tue 29-May-07 22:16:53

sorry paula that was a rather unfortunate cross post

sorry to hear about your sister's problem

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 22:17:18

See I don't baulk at little sod At All. Perfectly reasonable stuff.

I do however have heruuuuge ishoos with labelling children particularly girls with good, naughty etc etc.

I am bringing up fiesty opinionated girls who will Stand Up for Themselves and in no way will have their Spirit Crushed.

mozhe Tue 29-May-07 22:18:51

To the original OP...in a word ' no', to think otherwise is clearly bonkers...there is a phenomenon amongst certain middle class class families I call ' overparenting '...it can be as harmful to children as the opposite.

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:19:16

Sorry franny - don't wish to make you feel sad or anyone else, but most particularly not you.

I didn't mean it as a pop at anyone. Just something to consider.

There is someone I know whom I respect enormously. Her children seem more fearful than mine and I think it is because she cossets them and over protects(but I wouldn't criticise her parenting, she's a brilliant mother). I had her in mind. And my theory could well be wrong. Maybe it is something in the genetics - that my children are so 'robust' rather than anything environmental (such as parenting approach)?

Thats ok.

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:21:11

Oh and no I didn't doubt what she might say. Bless her - no flies on her!

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 22:25:59

thanks, PI. i'll have a better look later. i agree with everything you say, and am also bringing up a daughter (only child at the mo). for me, i just don't like words that are less about the moment and more about defining a characteristic, i think.

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 22:32:07

I'm glad they won't have their spirits crushed, PI ... but watch their farking wings!

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 22:33:27

An interesting read is there's a good girl

ProjectIcarus Tue 29-May-07 22:36:17

ah now you see so far my dds are quite civilised. Ability to mix socially v v important imo.

T-rex read the book and boil with rage about shoes with me.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 22:39:29

My mum sometimes told me I was 'a very, very naughty' (usually when I was being..umm...very very naughty, surprisingly).

My Irish Gran No.1 told me I was 'bold' 'contrary' and 'wild' on a regular basis.

My Irish granny No.2 was a woman of few words, and mainly things like 'You'll feel the back of my hand if you don't stop your carry on, my girl!'

The main thing was, I was raised in a house full of love, laughter, conversation, emotions epxressed rather than repressed and yes, there were arguments and some shouting and crying and lost tempers. The particulars really don't matter much if you have a loving family.

I couldn't agree more about the 'over-parenting' thing, by the way (which was why I referred to class in the first place, as it does seem to be a middle class phenomenon, let's be honest. We have everything in the world to give our children - food, shelter, education, love, more material things than they could possibly dream of - and our children are safer than any other children in history, possibly - vaccinated, in receipt of free healthcare and clean water, largely free from war - so what can we worry about now? What can we find to obssess about? How can we better 'parent'our children? It gets tedious in the extreme...)

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 22:40:08

p.s. I think its fair to say i'm feisty :-)

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 22:42:23

with both parents often out of the house and loads of kids in childcare five days a week while their parents bust a gut to pay a mortgage, i'm not so completely convinced that our children have it better than ever. tbh i think i was able to have a better childhood than i'll be able to offer my baby.

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:42:50

'emotions expressed rather than repressed' - yep, that's how our household is...

No bad thing imo

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 22:45:29

where did it become the case that not insulting your child meant you were repressed? lolol.

LoveAngel Tue 29-May-07 22:48:05

And that's where we disagree. 'Naughty' is NOT an insult to me. We will just have to agree to diasagree.

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:48:40

Sigh - diliberately obfuscate and misinterpret if you must!

handlemecarefully Tue 29-May-07 22:49:39

deliberately (before typo is seized upon in frenzy of blood lust)

Desiderata Tue 29-May-07 22:55:40

I love my child dearly. We all love our children.

But he's a naughty little fucker!

<Desi goes placidly to her bed>

TyrannosaurusRex Tue 29-May-07 22:58:39

i thought we'd disagreed about that aeons ago, loveangel. and i wasn't misinterpreting what you wrote, hmc, i don't consider emotions repressed in out house, not at all. i'm from a big family and accustomed to loud noise and big hearts. but as a child i did not like my mother insulting me and my bro and sisters by calling us names, i much preferred my father's more thoughtful approach, so that's what i intend to try and model myself on. i never felt unloved or uncared for, quite the opposite, ours was an amazingly loving household, and still is. and it's not in the slightest bit emotionally repressed.