To think a test for downs that is nearly 100% accurate will not result in more terminations

(302 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

PlayOnWurtz Wed 05-Oct-16 18:53:09

I'm getting increasingly annoyed with Sally Philips at the moment and her insistence testing for downs syndrome is a negative thing and that living with someone with downs syndrome is a wholly positive experience.

Whatever happened to choice? Who is she to lay the guilt trip on people? Why is it seen as shameful to say "I would not be able to raise a person with significant health and learning disabilities" and seen as a negative decision made on a whim rather than a decision made with consideration and thought and heartache?

specialsubject Wed 05-Oct-16 19:41:16

I fail to see how sally phillips can describe herself as pro-choice. She spoke at a SPUC rally and her tweets today are making her true position clear.

If you are anti-choice, ok, but have the balls to say so.

Gypsytears Wed 05-Oct-16 20:04:55

YABVU. It Eugenics

PotteringAlong Wed 05-Oct-16 20:06:37

It's not eugenics. It's choice. And choice means you can choose to have an abortion if you want to.

jessica29054 Wed 05-Oct-16 20:07:21

Even if it does result in more terminations it's no ones business other than the woman having the termination.

Even if EVERY SINGLE pregnancy identified as Down's syndrome is terminated.

Bearfrills Wed 05-Oct-16 20:09:20

YANBU, all women should have the choice of whether or not to have this test and then the choice of how to proceed should the results show that there is an issue. It doesn't just test for DS, it also checks for conditions that are incompatible with life and/or cause a severely limited lifespan.

Gypsytears Wed 05-Oct-16 20:11:40

I'm pro choice. This test however does not sit comfortably with me. People with Down's syndrome can live long and healthy lives, contribute to society, get married. Yet it's ok to abort this potential person on the basis that they don't conform / fit what is normal. Can't cope with / don't want / ,leant support a pregnancy / child fine. Decide that before you test for Downs

Crunchymum Wed 05-Oct-16 20:12:04

Meh if you are pro-choice then you are pro-choice.

This encompasses being pro-choice.

I don't love the thought of multiple terminations or late terminations for non medical reasons but I'm pro-choice and ultimately I support a woman's autonomy over her own body.

Essexgirlupnorth Wed 05-Oct-16 20:13:23

There is still a choice to have the test woman won't be forced to and the uptake for the current Down syndrome screening isn't 100%. Not all woman with a positive result will terminate either.
I think it's a good thing as will stop woman having invasive tests and risking the pregnancy when the baby is normal.

jessica29054 Wed 05-Oct-16 20:13:24

Gypsy

They can, yes.

A woman still has the right to terminate if she doesn't want to go ahead with it.

MuseumOfCurry Wed 05-Oct-16 20:14:09

I'm pro choice. This test however does not sit comfortably with me. People with Down's syndrome can live long and healthy lives, contribute to society, get married. Yet it's ok to abort this potential person on the basis that they don't conform / fit what is normal. Can't cope with / don't want / ,leant support a pregnancy / child fine. Decide that before you test for Downs

Do you have a child with Downs?

PlayOnWurtz Wed 05-Oct-16 20:15:46

Do you realise how wide a spectrum people with downs can fall within? No two people with it are the same. You can't guarantee in utero which end of the spectrum they will fall on.

J0kersSmile Wed 05-Oct-16 20:16:28

I agree op.

It's ok to terminate a pregnancy point blank. It's not being selfish to decide a baby with significant health issues that will affected for the whole of its life is better off not being born. It's a huge strain for anyone to raise a disabled child, it's a strain many won't want and tests to find problems out sooner then later is better all round.

JillyTheDependableBoot Wed 05-Oct-16 20:18:07

There are many, many families who choose not to undergo tests or choose not to terminate what they know is a DS pregnancy. I haven't seen the documentary but this whole thing is pissing me right off. What this test will do is remove the worry about the risks that accompany amniocentesis and help people make more informed choices more safely. That's it and she needs to STFU as far as I'm concerned.

JenLindleyShitMom Wed 05-Oct-16 20:18:25

Yet it's ok to abort this potential person on the basis that they don't conform / fit what is normal.

is that the basis on which the decision to abort would be made though? Or are there other factors? Like whether the person feels capable of supporting someone with additional needs.

MaudGonneMad Wed 05-Oct-16 20:20:03

The test doesn't just screen for Downs Syndrome, AFAIK. Has that changed?

MrsHathaway Wed 05-Oct-16 20:20:13

I think it's useful to know before the birth that a child will have DS, and this testing is surely better than amnio.

It is very common for babies with DS to have significant difficulties with feeding because of poor muscle tone. That's a thing worth knowing in advance.

It's very common for children with DS to have lots of hospital appointments and hospital stays. That's very difficult to fit round a return to work, so it's very common for one parent to SAH who might otherwise have gone back to work. That's worth knowing in advance.

And so on.

Acknowledging that people with DS make a positive contribution to the lives of the people who know them is in no way in conflict with thinking it's good for the prospective parents to have as much notice as possible of the additional challenges they will face.

Soubriquet Wed 05-Oct-16 20:20:21

Pro choice is that

A woman has the right to chose to abort her baby whatever reason

Down's is so wide. Two children will have two different types of Down's. One could be more high functioning than the other

No test will tell you how severe the Down's is

TotallyOuting Wed 05-Oct-16 20:20:47

I'm pro choice. This test however does not sit comfortably with me. People with Down's syndrome can live long and healthy lives, contribute to society, get married. Yet it's ok to abort this potential person on the basis that they don't conform / fit what is normal. Can't cope with / don't want / ,leant support a pregnancy / child fine. Decide that before you test for Downs

Huh? Maybe people have decided that before they test for Down syndrome (or Patau's, or Edwards or anything else). That's why they want a test. To find out whether their child would have Down syndrome. hmm

NerrSnerr Wed 05-Oct-16 20:21:24

There is another thread going on at the moment with a lot of interesting debate.

I agree OP. Being pro choice means just that, not that you're pro choice of people make the choice you agree with.

jessica29054 Wed 05-Oct-16 20:23:43

I hate to hear "I'm pro choice BUT"

It inevitably means "I'm pro choice but I wouldn't have an abortion in your situation so I don't think you should either."

Which is pretty much the opposite of pro choice.

Cheby Wed 05-Oct-16 20:23:46

I am getting annoyed with her too OP. But I am increasingly annoyed with the BBC and their ridiculously biased coverage of this issue. I am in the middle of writing a complaint.

I've just had NIPT. It's an incredible development in medical science. It simply replaces a test we have now, which risks miscarriage, with a completely risk-free test.

The logic applied by campaigners against this test is horrible, IMO. Essentially they seek to deny women a safe choice in the hope that they will be too frightened of the risk of miscarriage to get the test done.

Mari50 Wed 05-Oct-16 20:23:50

Either you're pro choice and this shouldn't change your feelings or you're not as pro choice as you think. If it's OK for a woman to abort a perfectly healthy foetus for personal reasons then it's ok to abort a foetus with an identified abnormality for personal reasons. My understanding is that this test is to be used as a substitute for amniocentesis and surely a safer method of identifying problems is the ideal. If a woman chooses to have an amnio then i would expect this is a carefully considered decision for a good reason. You don't have a procedure at 20 weeks with a 1-2% chance of miscarriage on a whim.
I've worked with some kids with downs who are amazing and gorgeous and bright but I've also met some kids who are at the severe end of the scale (coupled with autism sometimes) and they are profoundly disabled and their parents are exhausted and life is very difficult.

allegretto Wed 05-Oct-16 20:24:29

I think it will result in more terminations. More people will have the test (lots of people don't have amnio because they are worried about miscarrying). It is likely that some of the people who have the new test rather than the amnio will terminate their pregnancies. I am in favour of the new test though.

DiegeticMuch Wed 05-Oct-16 20:26:07

I wouldn't abort. But I'm definitely pro choice. People react how they react, and what they do, if anything, is up to them. Not everyone is mentally equipped for it. And not everyone has Ms Phillips' resources.....I may be incorrect, but I imagine life with an additional needs child is a bit smoother when you have a comfortable lifestyle and can afford domestic help, enabling you to focus on your baby.

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