to think a large number of people immigrating to work in the NHS is not good

[madhurjazz]

I keep hearing people spouting that its great that the NHS attracts lots of people to move to the uk(and presumably earn more?).

But doesn't this leave a brain drain in their home countries? Also wouldn't it encourage policymakers in the uk to not bother in investing in training to skill the next generation?

I could be very u as I m just speculating, but like all these things it seems 6 of one half a dozen of another.

[acasualobserver]

But doesn't this leave a brain drain in their home countries?

If there is an over-supply of people with their qualifications in their home countries, immigration to the UK could be seen as very positive. However, that's pure musing on my part - I don't know the facts.

Also wouldn't it encourage policymakers in the uk to not bother in investing in training to skill the next generation?

I agree, a real problem but, presumably, it saves money recruiting staff whose training has been paid for by another country's taxpayers.

[madhurjazz]

presumably, it saves money recruiting staff whose training has been paid for by another country's taxpayers.

It may do, but still I wouldn't see that as an advantage as ethically it sucks.

Then again I don't work for the NHS and I'm just guessing. LBC was infuriating about this earlier.

[YoungGirlGrowingOld]

YANBU and DH is an immigrant and NHS consultant. Far better to tran the doctors we need but that's easier said than done - not enough medical school places or money to increase numbers.

[ClaraLane]

As long as the nursing qualifications are on a par with our ones here and they can speak a good standard of English then we need all the immigrants we can get in my hospital. We've got over 100 vacancies in our medical division and only 35 recently qualified nurses will be joining us next month (normally our busiest recruiting time of the year). The problem is when we spend a fortune recruiting overseas nurses only for them to leave after a few months to go home.

[LurkingHusband]

(cynic mode)

as a rule, immigration trumps having to actually put the hard work into investing in our own country.

Why waste time on educating our own masses, when it's far cheaper to ship in ready-educated people to do the job from elsewhere ? Who can be expected to put up with worse conditions than our own home-grown special snowflakes, and pay loads of tax into the bargain. With the added advantage that if they get too arsey and start asking for more money, or better conditions - we can just deport them again.

The model worker immigrant would be someone who cost us nothing to raise (let a foreign country do that), comes to the UK to work for less and pay tax on that, and then fucks off when they retire, thus saving us additional expenses associated with old age.

Now I am not saying that is what the powers that be intended. However I am saying that if it was, then it would explain the current situation.

Maybe David Camerons dogged insistence on foreign aid not being cut makes more sense now ?

(cynic mode off)

Oh, look, a squirrel !

[ClaraLane]

Plus the recent cuts to nursing bursaries make it practically impossible for anyone other than those in their teens/early twenties to train as the majority can get student loans or still live at home so have few bills. We used to have career-changers joining us in their thirties and forties but they can't afford to give up work for 3 years to train as a nurse without the bursaries.

[Lunde]

The real problem is the under-investment in training UK staff - now that the with the brain drain going the other way with UK trained doctors leaving for Australia and Canada etc where they are more highly paid with better, less stressful working conditions. This is set to increase after the junior doctor dispute

It was quite a shock living in Sweden to realise that my Swedish GP saw 3-4 patients an hour compared to the 10-12 in a practice in Surrey.

It is one thing to poach staff from the EU - however it does make me uneasy that the UK is relying on developing countries to pay to train NHS staff without considering effects on local healthcare. As these countries need their workforce

[ClaraLane]

LurkingHusband our overseas nurses got paid exactly the same as our "home grown" nurses, our payscales are set by Agenda for Change.

[scarednoob]

I think the NHS needs immigration but within reason, there should be a happy medium between training uk born people and immigrants arriving.

I do think there should be a minimum standard of English though. And I say this as someone who was given false hope for 2 whole days that her DM was going to live because the doctor simply lacked the English comprehension skills to answer our questions. When an English doctor finally came on duty and realised our misunderstanding and had to break it to us that she was in fact going to die and soon - well, it was even harder than it would have been otherwise. It was utterly horrific :(

[mollie123]

fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/

read this about the numbers of immigrants employed in the NHS and there is no suggestion that if a skills based criteria was applied to all immigrants - EU and non-EU the NHS would collapse.

[Myusernameismyusername]

This is not the fault of the NHS who are trying to fill their vacancies.

I am NHS and certain vacancies can stay vacant for months and months. What else are they supposed to do?

We used to use agency staff but there is now a ban on this in many trusts. U.K. Trained staff can earn far more money as agency and also have a lot more freedom so many left perm jobs for this decision. Now the trusts can't afford their salaries so we need to find staff from somewhere.

There aren't enough trained staff in the uk - who want to work for less money than they can earn as agency staff. The gov are to blame for this by cutting bursaries but also making wages and conditions and hours so shitty that people don't even want to sign a contract with a trust.

[ThePinkOcelot]

Changing the subject slightly, but the cost of locums and agency staff is absolutely astronomical! Both for immigrants and non.

[EssentialHummus]

Everything lurking said. I'm an embittered foreigner, counting down the days til the UK "strengthens its border control" and then puts in place double-height loopholes to meet this country's demands for nurses and specialist medical staff - probably alongside plenty of other low-paid, undesirable jobs.