to post a reminder that there are loads of left-leaning reasons to vote "out"?

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

I think it's very sad that the "out" camp has been largely commandeered by racism and xenophobia. This can leave a very bad taste in the mouth for the liberal left, and I think is making people go to "remain" by default. After all, who wants to vote with Nigel Farage?

But this is actually very strange. The EU is undemocratic and benefits the tax-dodging super-rich. It is developed to suit the needs of enormous corporations and banks. To vote "out" would be a very logical move for people with left-leaning politics.

IMHO we need to be very careful not to vote "in" simply because the other option has been taken over by right-wing shouty men obsessed with immigration.

I've posted a couple of links to reasonable arguments below (but there's loads of stuff out there if you look for it).

www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-mp-kate-hoey-why-leaving-the-eu-is-a-left-wing-move-a6687936.html

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

Oh, and here's a Green argument for "out".

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/08/eu-reform-green-brexit

[scatterolight]

YANBU. Labour Leave did a good pamphlet here...

www.labourleave.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/The-Labour-Case-for-Brexit.pdf

And 6 Good Reasons to Leave the EU...

www.labourleave.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/LL-8-page-FINAL-14.1.16.pdf

I think a lot of people consider themselves "progressive" or left leaning and are naturally Eurosceptic. But they have been made to feel that Remain is somehow the more "moral" or "non-racist" choice. I'd urge anyone feeling like that to read the Labour Leave stuff as there are many, many, good progressive reasons to Leave. The Left have a long proud history of fighting for democracy and resisting the type of Neo-liberal corporatism embodied in the EU.

There is nothing "Little England" about desiring Sovereignty and Democracy or wanting to protect the poorest people from wage depression caused by a free flow of labour across Europe.

[Superhumancrew]

Yanbu! Thank u. I'm still unsure which way I'm voting (for the firdt time ever when voting on something). But I am sick of my leftie friends thinking that the choice is so obviously remain in. I'm s die hard socialist and am finding the decision very difficult.

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

Tricky because there might be lots of left-leaning reasons to leave but it's hard to imagine any Govt implementing many of them any time soon.

[wasonthelist]

Yanbu I voted Green at the last election. I am very disappointed the Greens are pro-remain as I don't think it fits in with their overall agenda as I understand it.

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

Thanks for the links, Scatter. And I very much agree with your post.

I think it's really difficult, Superhuman. It's interesting and infuriating that the Electoral Commission picked a a half-arsed, xenophobic, right-wing campaign as the "official" (most funded) Leave campaign. It's almost like they wanted a straw-man for Remain to beat. This referendum could have gone very differently with a socialist Leave campaign I think.

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

I'm disappointed with Caroline Lucas's stance too, wason (I'm often a Green voter as well).
I know what you mean, Rebecca. Personally, I think I'm going to have to vote assuming that real change is possible.

[howtorebuild]

You are either thick or racist if you want to leave apparently.

There are so many reasons to leave other than immigration. As for economics we are fucked in or out of the EU.

[callherwillow]

Thanks - quite so.

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

I guess as a left-leaning voter we are stuck in the proverbial. Because I really really do not want to give any kind of mandate to Johnson/Gove/Farage and I fear that is what a leave vote would do.

[lavenderdoilly]

Of course you are not being unreasonable (even though I disagree with you). But your voice is smothered by the Gove Boris crap. It's a shame.

[callherwillow]

But you are happy to give it to Cameron?

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

callherwillow - is that q for me? Assuming yes, then my rationale is that it's not for Cameron as he is supported by the Labour party, Greens, Lib Dems, SNP, all of whom I would vote for anyway. And the unions as well.

[lavenderdoilly]

I'm not voting Remain because of Cameron. It is a vote in spite of him. He doesn't get to tell me what is best for my country. I want to avoid another recession. I believe the EU is a positive influence on former warsaw pact countries. I want a say in the rules we will inevitably need to adhere to when our country trades with the EU. I want the inward investment for regional development in my area that no Westminster government would give. I want the employment rights and anti discrimination laws that eu membership requires - not a luxury that the goves of this world would delete in tough times.i want my dd to have the freedom to travel and study across the EU that I had. That kind of thing.

[scatterolight]

Rebecca - personalities come and go, governments change every 4 years. This Ref determines the rest of our lives and your children's lives. If you believe in the case for Leave you should not let antipathy towards some political personalities stop you voting that way. That would be a terrible shame and I'd certainly find it hard to explain to my kids...

"Why did you vote Remain mum?" "Well I wanted to vote Leave, but there was this guy called Boris Johnson and I didn't like him very much and I didn't want to be on the same side as him" ""

[wasonthelist]

All the personality arguments are a dodgy sideshow really. I have no love for any of 'em, on either side, for the most part.

[callherwillow]

But Rebecca, not all of labour, the Greens, etc., are supporting Cameron.

Gove is also right more often than he's wrong; he was the only one to see through Camila batmanghelidjh.

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

scatterolight - hmm, sorry I'm not so sure. Given what they will take as a mandate that unholy trio could do anything to destroy worker's rights, support big business, cut welfare benefits, further take away environmental protection. Frankly I'd find it harder to justify that to my children, it would leave them a hugely different country to the one we currently inhabit.

Personally, I will actually be voting to remain on the basis that I think the EU will give more protection to the things I mention above.

My earlier points were merely empathising with the situation for left-wing voters who do want to leave.

[IrenetheQuaint]

I think any lefty voting for Leave has to accept the probability of a more right-wing UK government in the short to medium term, alongside the dilution of the workers' rights and environmental protections which are (for me) one of the achievements of the EU.

You may feel it's worth it for the potential longer-term benefits for the left-wing cause of leaving the EU, though given that the UK electorate is traditionally centre right I'd be doubtful of seeing these in practice.

[GiraffeTastic]

Yanbu, I'm a leftie and voting out. The EU is a massive, corrupt and unaccountable gravy train for the elite.

We all know Corbyn wants out but darent say it

[callherwillow]

Yes ... Disappointing, that.

[wasonthelist]

I think any lefty voting for Leave has to accept the probability of a more right-wing UK government in the short to medium term

No. Possibility yes, probability, no. On that basis Labour wouldn't have had the landslide victories in 1945 or 1997. Popularity in one arena doesn't guarantee it in another. Also without rehearsing the whole thing all over again, many of the most generous rights weren't demanded by the EU, and are already superior to EU minima.

[YourPerception]

Corbyn sold out.

[wasonthelist]

I am disappointed in Corbyn on that single issue.

[lavenderdoilly]

Corbyn won't take on the antisemites in his party either. But that is a rant for another day. He's doing Leave a favour by being so quiet on the subject.