to be sick of people on FB comparing Syrian refugees to the Jewish refugees

(441 Posts)
paintandbrush Sun 15-May-16 00:00:40

Please stop bandying about the terms 'Kindertransport', 'Operation Pied Piper' and so on because I've studied the Holocaust extensively, and it's not actually the same, ok?

This article says it all better than I can, please read: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12130175/The-plight-of-Syrian-refugees-is-not-on-a-par-with-Jews-fleeing-the-Nazis.html

For the record, I really don't believe we should be bombing them to hell in the first place: in this day and age, wars are not won in the towns and fields of North Africa. Wars are won round a conference table somewhere in Switzerland.

The whole attitude of Cameron's government at the minute seems to be "Let's make their homeland hell on earth, then pat ourselves on the back for letting, say, 10% of them into the UK". What a bloody mess.

LadyHonoriaDedlock Sun 15-May-16 00:03:10

So what exactly is your point?

BananaThePoet Sun 15-May-16 00:06:46

Yes you are unreasonable.
People are entitled to discuss comparisons and just because you studied the subject doesn't give you control over every person's attitude and every person's take on the subject.
Plenty of people did not study the subject as an academic exercies but instead lived through the experience and lived with people who lived through the experience.
Many of those people see parallels and they are the ones who know better than anyone else and they are entitled to express how they feel. Tough if you dont like it. You don't rule the world.

GiddyOnZackHunt Sun 15-May-16 00:11:44

I'm curious about the phrase 'studied ... extensively'. I never know whether that means someone's a leading academic or has just read a few articles on the internet.

BillSykesDog Sun 15-May-16 00:12:48

I know what you mean. A comparable situation would be if we were airlifting out Christians and Yazidi and possibly some Shia Muslims who were at the biggest risk.

I think the situation in Europe is more comparable to the UK in the 1930s throwing open the doors to any Germans no questions asked regardless of whether they themselves were anti-Semites or Nazis. And I believe if we'd done that, the Nazis would almost certainly have won WW2.

cleanmachine Sun 15-May-16 00:13:19

Yabu! Wtf.

SocialDisaster Sun 15-May-16 00:13:47

I hope we accept half male, half female and equal numbers of each age group.

EmpressofBlandings Sun 15-May-16 00:16:03

You may have studied the Holocaust (oooh, "extensively " - go you!!!), but you are clearly entirely ignorant in other, fairly basic areas. Syria is not in North Africa.

In some ways, I think we have more of a moral obligation here. We certainly did more, more directly, to create the situation than we did in 1938.

BillSykesDog Sun 15-May-16 00:17:38

We certainly did more, more directly, to create the situation than we did in 1938.

Ahem. WW1. Reparations. Cough.

getlostdailyfail Sun 15-May-16 00:20:40

I think the difference is that the majority of the world were sympathetic towards the Jews. Unfortunately, the majority of the world is not sympathetic towards the Syrians and are letting it happen. We would have thought we'd have learnt a lesson from history, but alas, no.

GiddyOnZackHunt Sun 15-May-16 00:28:00

Do you think people were more sympathetic to the Jewish people? I'm not so sure. Maybe to children But adults? Europe's not exactly embraced Jews throughout the last 600 years!

emilybohemia Sun 15-May-16 00:33:02

You are unreasonable. You are also disregarding the parallels that the Kindertransport survivors have drawn themselves. There are survivors that have written to refugee children saying that they understand them and offering their support.

Alison Pearson is talking out of her arse. Refugees trying to cross to Turkey are beaten or shot. They are denied adequate shelter and schooling and denied the right to work.

Conditions in the camps are shit. People in them are sometimes suicidal. They do not have adequate funds.

The whole article is odious frankly and a load ofgoady shite. People helping those at Calais or any other spot in Europe, picking up the pieces are dismissed as virtue signallers. What a load of fucking shit. They do it because they care. How people dare to havea go at that is beyond me. How does Pearson know these volounteers don't care about British people needing help too?

Pearson also sees outraged at the suggestion that the behaviour of the Danes is comparable to the Nazis, yet she rides roughshod over the fact that the holocaust was a few years in the making and it began with the marking of people as different, less deserving of the same housing, education and work rights as others. She also disregards the beatings some Bulgarians give out to refugees and the theft of their money by Czech authorities in centres I'd love Pearson to tell the Syrian man I spoke to whose wife was killed infront of him and whose precious books were burnt how it's not that bad and none of it's a holocaust. I'm sure he'd be relieved to hear that.

LittleMissBossyBoots Sun 15-May-16 00:44:59

YABU

It's not a game of refugee top trumps.

cleaty Sun 15-May-16 00:50:52

Europeans were not generally sympathetic to the Jews. I am speaking as a family whose older members living in Britain at the time changed their obviously Jewish name because of the harassment they were getting. Please don't talk about things you have no idea of.

lurked101 Sun 15-May-16 00:53:07

Quite frankly OP your attitude is repugnant and suggests an utter lack of humanity. There are lots of comparisons, particularly in the objections of the right wing press in refugees coming here.

This post:

"I think the situation in Europe is more comparable to the UK in the 1930s throwing open the doors to any Germans no questions asked regardless of whether they themselves were anti-Semites or Nazis. And I believe if we'd done that, the Nazis would almost certainly have won WW2."

Why would Nazis have been refugees in the 1930s? your post makes no sense and your conclusion is baffling.

These articles should help you correct a bit of your ignorance OP ( extensively studies , yeah right watching the History channel and reading a few books doesn't mean you have studied it extensivey)

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/19/yes-the-comparison-between-jewish-and-syrian-refugees-matters/

emilybohemia Sun 15-May-16 00:53:17

www.refinery29.uk/2016/05/109815/auschwitz-survivor-syrian-refugees-holocaust-remembrance-day

'This crisis is not the Holocaust, but the two do share disturbing themes, and I urge you to not give in to the fatigue that can drive us to shut our windows and close the curtains. We must also combat hopelessness. The problems in Syria seem insurmountable, but we can still have a powerful impact on those who suffer.

Remember this: It is an honour in life to be able to have a positive effect on even one other person. And when the suffering of another is great, small acts of generosity and courage are powerful beyond expectation.

Take this opportunity to do a great thing that will live in someone’s memory for a lifetime and be told to the generations that come after. Offer something to relieve the suffering of the person walking past your house. Provide a word of support when others taunt. Reach out your window and softly touch the forlorn face of someone who will remember your kindness forever.'

Patapouf Sun 15-May-16 00:55:05

Why does the comparison bother you?

YABU

pilpiloni Sun 15-May-16 00:58:44

Europeans were absolutely not sympathetic to the Jews, they didn't want them.

Yes, the kindertransport was wonderful but these were not orphans or destitute children for the most part. Why were the parents or older siblings not saved? Were adults too 'jewish' for British society to handle? We all know the fate of those left behind.

Of course the Syrian crisis differs substantially and significantly from the fate of Jews in Europe. I don't think anyone is suggesting they are the same.

But there is a common humanitarian thread, a need to accept those who are different from us. In that sense, there is a point of comparison.

SocialDisaster Sun 15-May-16 01:13:50

Yet you shut your door Emily.

EmpressofBlandings Sun 15-May-16 01:19:04

BillSykesDog - that's exactly why I said directly. Yes, the treaty of Versailles etc were disastrous for Germany, but at least we weren't actually bombing them and then refusing to accept refugees.

BiscuitMillionaire Sun 15-May-16 01:19:37

There are some similarities but also major differences. Syrians in general are not a persecuted minority. They are fleeing a civil war, that has many factions, and there are no clear 'good guys'. Assad v ISIS - who would you support? Should Europe take in all 23 million Syrians? Should we prioritise the fit young ones with enough money to pay people-traffickers? Or should we go into Syria and bring out the old, sick and disabled? If you were a Syrian child, would you rather stay with your family in a refugee camp in Turkey, or go alone to a strange country with an alien culture?

emilybohemia Sun 15-May-16 01:23:00

Absolutely pil. Their parents often died.

dillydotty Sun 15-May-16 01:30:36

I live in an area that has been flooded with eastern European immigrants. Wages are tumbling and it is hard to find a job, even at minimum wage. Maybe coming out of the EU will allow us to control immigration.

If economic immigration is controlled, we could accommodate more refugees. The people who really need our help. I don't care what religion, race colour or sexual orientation they are, if someone is truly in fear of their life we should help.

The problem is that the issues get mixed together, refugees and economic immigrants are lumped together as "foreigners" and anyone who wants controlled immigration is a bigot.

IPityThePontipines Sun 15-May-16 01:31:24

towns and fields of North Africa.

YABU for not even knowing where Syria is, yet still claiming to have an intelligent opinion on the matter.

What your "extensive studies" have failed to teach you is that the wider European view of Jews then, was not the wider European view of Jews now.

Back then Jews were viewed as perpetual foreigners, who belonged to an inferior culture and would never be truly loyal to their country.

The modern day parallels are starkly clear.

Biscuit - The Syrians may not be a minority within Syria, but they are clearly rather persecuted, what with hundreds of thousands being slaughtered and millions fleeing for their lives.

I recommend you google "The Devils Gambit Bashar Assad", which explains exactly how and why the Assad regime enabled IS to flourish.

You can also google "Caesar Syria" and "Barrel Bombs" and see if you are still unsure as to who the main belligerent is.

BillSykesDog Sun 15-May-16 01:44:51

Considering that Syria initially kicked off because of the Arab Spring I would say that our direct involvement in the start of the conflict was probably a lot less than WW2. It was well underway by the time we actually got involved in Syria. We actually refused to take part in air strikes initially when they were just against Assad. It's not like we invaded and started the conflict.

And, actually, we did bomb Germany. And all Germans were banned from travelling here including Jewish people during WW2 and many German people were interned for national security. And as I said, a comparable situation would have been if we had open doors to anyone from Germany throughout the war, as long as they could get here. No questions asked about whether or not they were Nazis or held views which supported the persecution of Jews/Communists/Homosexuals/Gypsies/ the disabled etc or were hostile towards non-Nazi states.

IMO there is a big difference between taking members of a minority group who are explicitly being targeted for persecution (in this case, Christians, Yazidi, some Shia; in the case of Germany, Jews, Gypsies, gays etc) and taking large numbers of the majority group doing the oppressing without actually bothering to ask hard questions about who they are and what they believe.

If you give asylum to those who are doing the oppressing, and they continue with their oppressive behaviour in a new country, then you haven't actually given anyone asylum. You've just let the violence spread and put greater numbers of people at risk.

Examples of this recently include Christians and Yazidi being persecuted by Sunni Muslims in German refugee camps:

www.christiantimes.com/article/muslims-threaten-christians-and-other-minority-groups-in-german-refugee-camps/55325.htm

And Christians being thrown overboard on boats:
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/16/italian-police-arrest-migrants-alleged-to-have-thrown-christians-overboar

The head of the Syrian Orthodox Church has expressed concerns about the treatment of it's members in Europe, including violence, sexual violence threats and intimidation.

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