To wonder how anyone can support/like The Vatican?

(62 Posts)
Kreacherelf Wed 10-Feb-16 21:08:38

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/catholic-bishops-not-obliged-report-clerical-child-abuse-vatican-says

Yes, I know that many countries have dubious children's rights records.

However, The Vatican is one 'country' which simply takes the piss. How could any parent send their child here?

AMouseLivedinaWindMill Wed 10-Feb-16 21:23:38

Dreadful. Shameful.

allegretto Wed 10-Feb-16 21:24:41

Who sends their child to the Vatican?

ollieplimsoles Wed 10-Feb-16 21:26:08

I would also like to know the answer to this op...

nortonhouse Wed 10-Feb-16 21:30:03

Not sure what you mean by sending your child to the Vatican???
I believe what the article refers to is a policy (a heinous policy) that applies to Catholic bishops worldwide.

Kreacherelf Wed 10-Feb-16 21:34:52

By 'sending their child' there, I meant parents whose kids are selected to be choir boys or whatever (assuming that still happens).

MaidOfStars Wed 10-Feb-16 21:35:06

Apparently, the petrol is rocKing cheap (tax free).

Not sure about the sending of children either.

MaidOfStars Wed 10-Feb-16 21:37:01

As opposed to sending them to be choristers in any Catholic Church under the authority of a bishop who doesn't have to report child abuse to the police?

I'd actually have a guess that being a choir boy in Vatican City is safer than a lot of other places.

Kreacherelf Wed 10-Feb-16 22:23:43

You're right, I wouldn't send my child to any church alone, mainly because children are too young to make such choices.

FithColumnist Wed 10-Feb-16 22:45:25

I honestly do not understand what OP is banging on about here. Is this yet another thread about how evil the Catholic Church is because some priests happen to be nonces?

CottonFrock Wed 10-Feb-16 22:52:02

I think you may be misunderstanding the relationship between the Catholic hierarchy, the 'Vatican' and the papal mini-state 'Vatican City'. These guidelines issued to new bishops about it not being their moral duty to report child abuse to the civil authorities are appalling precisely because they are being issued by the hierarchy to ALL new bishops all over the world, not because children inside Vatican City are at specific risk.

ComposHatComesBack Wed 10-Feb-16 22:59:15

I honestly do not understand what OP is banging on about here. Is this yet another thread about how evil the Catholic Church is because some priests happen to be nonces?

No because the Catholic Church has mandated a policy of actively shielding priests who commit sexual crimes against children from civil authorities.an altogether different scenario to the one you describe.

kawliga Thu 11-Feb-16 03:27:13

Most sexual abuse of children happens within their own homes or the homes of people they know. Not in the Vatican. Parents and close relatives are the most likely culprits for vulnerable children.

Also, you never hear reports of the good things priests do around the world. It's really not newsworthy if a priest goes to some god-forsaken boring place in the world and starts a school for children or a hospital to help mothers giving birth (without pay and without glory or recognition). Nobody wants to read about that. It might make the annual parish newsletter and that's about it. A priest who sexually abused a child? Now, you're talking. That's more newsworthy. Everyone wants to hear about that. Thought this was obvious to anyone who is familiar with how news works.

The Catholic church (so, priests and nuns) is still the most important source for schools and hospitals in the developing world. Bet nobody will start a thread about that. Because paedophile priests is more interesting.

Baconyum Thu 11-Feb-16 05:21:31

It's not just paedophile priests though is it. It's long standing abuse and control of all their 'subjects' in my opinion.

It's bigotry, abuse, oppression, perpetuating situations that ruin the lives not only of those directly affected but their entire communities.

Its cruel policies that are far more about power and control which genuinely benefits their congregation.

I'm talking not just about the CSA scandals (which we've only heard the tip of the iceberg of I suspect when you consider the story behind the film spotlight is the story of HUNDREDS of abused children in one city alone!)

It's the oppression and demonising of women who dared to have sex outside marriage or marry outside Catholicism or God forbid fall pregnant resulting in deaths from back street abortions, forced adoption, the imprisonment (essentially) of young girls (who in many cases were victims of rape/CSA but that was never a good enough excuse). Deliberately ignoring even the law in some countries regarding an adopted childs right to find their birth parents and destruction of documents.

It's the millions of people dying of aids in Africa and elsewhere because of the catholic church's ignorance and arrogance regarding human sexuality.

It's the fact they judge whether the poor are worthy of help depending on how they live their lives (I cannot see the Jesus I have been told of agreeing with that).

It's the support and funding of extreme politicians, terrorists.

And yet people think Islam is a more dangerous religion!

Chiggers Thu 11-Feb-16 06:45:36

But it's not just the Catholic church that is abusing children, the Protestant church has also been doing the same thing too. It's just that the Catholic church has been the main focus.

Here is an article on the Protestant CSA. And that's probably only a minute fraction of cases. I bet the rest has been kept under wraps for 'reputation' reasons.

Here's another link to the effects of Christian CSA

This is one of the reasons why I have been an atheist for nearly 20yrs. There's no evidence God actually exists and I despise anyone who uses that concept to bugger little children (and cause much psychological damage to them) for their own ends (scuse the pun). BTW, let's not forget that many nuns were also partaking in abuse with beatings etc.

Baconyum Thu 11-Feb-16 07:05:31

Oh I agree its not just the Catholics but that doesn't excuse them and as in my pp there's plenty else they need their heads read on too. I believe in a higher being but NOT organised religion (religion is a human thing not a godly thing imho) my beliefs are broadly pagan.

I believe there's been problems within Judaism too? I may be wrong but I vaguely remember reading something.

Another reason Catholicism is so problematic is that it gets away with more as it has such strong ties to the wealthy westernised nations and is supported by them.

liinyo Thu 11-Feb-16 07:40:46

I actually a little nervous about posting this but it makes me so sad that people think that organised religion can only be a force for bad.

I am a Catholic and involved in the life of my local church. This does not mean I approve of or accept the Vatican's antiquated stance on paedophile priests, gay marriage, the use of condoms to prevent the spread of HIV, abortion etc etc. Like many people I make my own choices about those parts of the faith/organisation I believe in and those my conscience cannot accept. I can and do protest against these matters.

My church is involved in projects that include hosting an overnight shelter for local homeless people every winter, supporting refugees with food and clothing and practical help as they adjust to life in the UK, visiting prisoners, providing holidays for physically and mentally handicapped children and adults, organising lifts to/from hospital for those who are too ill or frail to use public transport and extensive fund raising for local and international charIties and so much more. All these services are carried out free of charge by ordinary people juggling them with family life and work and are available to anyone in need not just fellow Catholics. All this on top of the every day life of services/social events/friendships. The church is not just celibate old men in pointy hats covering up crimes, it is also normal people trying to do what we think is right.

Both my daughters were regular altar servers (until they reached an age when it wasn't cool any more) and it was good for them to take an active role in the parish. They made friends and connections with people of all ages that exist to this day, even though as young adults they no longer attend church regularly. Our parish has rigorous child protection policies in place to ensure the atrocities of the past are not repeated.

MaidOfStars Thu 11-Feb-16 09:34:46

It's really not newsworthy if a priest goes to some god-forsaken boring place in the world and starts a school for children or a hospital to help mothers giving birth (without pay and without glory or recognition)
No never. They don't become famous household names, then sainted after their death, or anything like that.

MaidOfStars Thu 11-Feb-16 09:45:20

It's one thing to call for more liberal views on condoms as a medical intervention, not a contraceptive device. It's another to allow the club to which you belong to refuse measures to force the reporting of pedophiles. I don't know how that can not turn anyone's stomach.

If a policeman forced his penis into a 10 year old's anus, and his mates kept quiet (as the rules allowed them to), we'd be calling for their heads and storming parliament.

If a teacher forced a 12 year old to suck his cock and swallow his spunk, and his mates kept quiet (as the rules allowed them to), we'd be calling for their heads and storming parliament.

Apparently, it's different for 'private member clubs'.

ComposHatComesBack Thu 11-Feb-16 09:49:18

Most sexual abuse of children happens within their own homes or the homes of people they know. Not in the Vatican. Parents and close relatives are the most likely culprits for vulnerable children.

I think the op confused 'the vatican' used in the context of the article to mean the central authority of the Catholic Church with the actual physical place. (The article is concerned with the former)

A priest would fit firmly into the category of a known and trusted adult with authority over the child.

Anyway the article is not concerned with whether priests are more or less likely to abuse children, but the supposed 'safeguarding' measures put in place by the church to deal with child abuse allegations. Imagine if the education minister decided to deal with all allegations of sexual abuse of children internally and told headteachers that it was not neccesarry to involve the police? You'd be happy with that, right?

Baconyum Thu 11-Feb-16 10:06:55

Liinyo for starters you would then not be considered a 'real' catholic by the majority of Catholics.

"it is also normal people trying to do what we think is right." Does that include condoning by continuing to belong to and contributing finances and support to an organisation that had done a huge amount of wrong?

Many other non religious organisations do a hell of a lot of good without needing told to by religious leaders. Including youth organisations.

"They made friends and connections with people of all ages that exist to this day" who have the same cultural (and in the comtext of this thread ethical) background as they do, do they also attend catholic school?

Maidofstars

No never. They don't become famous household names, then sainted after their death, or anything like that.

Exactly! Including the guy at the heart of the Boston paedophile ring portrayed in spotlight being promoted! Given a very cushy job at...the Vatican!

LarrytheCucumber Thu 11-Feb-16 10:06:58

Is it the law here that people have to report abuse to the Police?
Several years ago DC was assaulted at Cadets. During the long and drawn out process that followed we were told that we (in UK) rely on people feeling morally obliged to report and that failure to report was not an offence (although morally very wrong).
So unless the law has changed it is still the responsibility of the victim or their parents to report.
Having been through it and been treated very badly by some Officers for reporting I know it is not for the fainthearted.

Baconyum Thu 11-Feb-16 10:14:48

Unfortunately no it is not a legal requirement to report but I think it should be.

I also have a massive issue with possible abusers (plus rapists murderers etc) being able to tell a priest in confession what they've done and the priest can't do a thing about it other than tell them not to do it again and issue instructions to say certain mantras x amount of times ridiculous!

It just stinks of covering up.

As several pp have pointed out we wouldn't accept police or teachers or drs being able to deal with such allegations 'in house' what makes priests so bloody special!?

araiba Thu 11-Feb-16 10:24:42

and the catholic church tries to be a moral force hahahaha

a good person will do their best
a bad person will do their worst
but in order for a good person to do bad things, you need religion

LarrytheCucumber Thu 11-Feb-16 10:29:16

So if the law here doesn't penalise people for failing to report abuse here, why is the Vatican doing anything worse?
I was shocked to find that Cadet Officers could cover it up, but being a tenacious person I made a huge fuss with HQ and as a result got some of their CP policies changed and the CO disciplined. In some ways putting power in the hands of parents is good.
However taking on the might of the Catholic Church would be quite daunting.

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