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AIBU?

To think that we need a consensus on healthy food before we can have a 'fat tax'?

56 replies

whitershadeofpale · 03/09/2015 22:58

This is partly inspired by watching Jamie Oliver's programme tonight and also the fact that I've recently read Dr John Briffa's 'Escape The Diet Trap'.

I'll hold my hands up to having been overweight all of my adult life and at one stage having been obese, I'm now comfortably losing weight and feel very healthy (better skin, hair and nails than ever before). I've read so much and tried different things over the years but I honestly feel that there is no consensus as to what constitutes a healthy diet.

My mum recently went to the doctor and was told she has a high bmi, borderline cholesterol and raised blood pressure. The diet advise she was given was imo a load of outdated crap that would probably cause her to gain weight (porridge with dried fruit for breakfast, sweetener in tea, jacket potato with beans for lunch, low fat meat and 2 veg type dinner/stir fry/pasta, snack on fruit).

No one can deny that we have a problem with obesity in this country but the solution I've heard most often is to put a tax on 'unhealthy food' passing on the punishment to the consumer. Now we all need to take personal responsibility and some foods are obviously bad for us such as crisps, milk chocolate and fizzy drinks, but there are so many things that are a grey area such as salted nuts, fatty meats, cheese, cream-many doctors or experts would say we should't eat these, yet others say they are fine. If the 'experts' can't agree then how are the public expected to make correct choices? And if we don't have the correct information then how is it ethical to charge people extra for what there's no consensus on?

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ShadowLine · 03/09/2015 23:10

I find all the arguments about whether low fat or low carb is better all a bit confusing.

But as you say just about everyone agrees that crisps, sweets and fizzy drinks (except maybe fizzy water. Is that okay if it's not sweetened?) are unhealthy. Surely there'd be scope for taxing specific types of food / drink like those?

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PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 03/09/2015 23:10

I agree the diet advice was poor. however its easy to eat healthy it is. however eating is only a part of a diet. Many problems are mental and that needs to be addressed first.

fat people know we are fat, we are not in denial. you find the route cause of the problem and then perhaps those who want to loose weight maybe could.

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WorraLiberty · 03/09/2015 23:10

The diet advice given to your Mum won't make her fat as long as she doesn't eat too much of it while taking too little exercise to burn it off.

The problem I think many people have is being confused about 'How much is too much?' and 'How much exercise is not enough?'

None of the foods you've mentioned are 'obviously bad for us', as long as they're eating in moderation.

But again, some people are confused about what 'moderation' actually means. Once a week? Once a month? What?

A fat tax won't solve anything imo.

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PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 03/09/2015 23:13

Worral i very rarely disagree with you, but meals should could be your 5 a day while fruit is the extra 2 portions a day for a target of 7 fruits and veg a day.

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SlowlyGoingINSAINIA · 03/09/2015 23:14

I was given a diet like that to follow by an NHS dietician with very specific portion amounts and how frequently. I lost weight on it.

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corgiology · 03/09/2015 23:14

I understand what you mean.

I think this tax is pointless for restaurants though. People will clearly just ask for tap water instead or choose juice maybe. That's if they even go the restaurant. Eating out is very expensive compared to going to the supermarket. People will just get their bottle of coke at the supermarket and not bother at restaurants.

Tackling supermarkets would make so much more sense.

With regards to the sugar debate, something has to be done clearly.
I think taxing would be a good start although I take your points. Maybe setting a limit is the answer e.g. anything with over 50% sugar is taxed at this rate, between 20-50% is this rate and below 20 is untaxed.

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manicinsomniac · 03/09/2015 23:16

I think people can be very healthy and successfully lose weight on both HCLF and LCHF diets. It would be HCHF (is that even a thing??) that would be a problem and those are the kind of foods that I would assume would be taxed - heavily processed junk food?

Not that I agree with the tax at all, tbh. People should be able to make their own choices.

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WorraLiberty · 03/09/2015 23:19

Piper seriously, it won't make her fat though unless she eats too much and doesn't burn it off.

Almost all of the fat people I know, whose eating habits I'm familiar with (and I say almost) are fat because they eat too much food and don't take nearly enough exercise to burn it off.

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PurpleDaisies · 03/09/2015 23:27

I don't understand what's wrong with the dietary advice. That sounds like a typical sensible day's eating to me (without sweetener in tea).

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PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 03/09/2015 23:27

I am not on about fat, it is about healthy eating.

the doctor said 2 pieces of fresh veg a day. I can see how porridge with dried fruit and jacket with beans and meat and 2 veg can be a healthy diet. I may make a person loose weight but there is no way it meets all the body need to function let alone exercise.

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PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 03/09/2015 23:27

Can't stupid cat on keyboard.

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PurpleDaisies · 03/09/2015 23:28

*personal hatred of sweet tea rather than a particular objection to sweetener.

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WorraLiberty · 03/09/2015 23:30

I see, but I was answering the OP who said The diet advise she was given was imo a load of outdated crap that would probably cause her to gain weight

It really wouldn't necessarily cause her to gain weight unless she eats too much of it, and doesn't burn it off.

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futureme · 03/09/2015 23:37

apart from tea sweetener that looks ok as a days food doesnt it? If your jacket and beans had salad with it - youre covering veg in 2 meals, fruit as extra, protein carbs...not processed etc.

Im trying to make the effort to eat porridge for breakfast!

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Birdsgottafly · 03/09/2015 23:38

My Mum has Cancer, as recommended she follows a high fat diet (high in fat and diary is also good for preventing pressure sores).

Her appetite is often poor, but she can manage a cake with a cup of tea. She'll also have a few crisps with a Whiskey/Gin/Vodka.

I worked in Elderly Care and Adult Disabilities, it was a daily battle to get enough calories in them.

I don't agree with taxing food, there will be people who are adversely affected.

I've also lost five stone, I've been overweight/obese for three years, mostly in denial.

I "clean eat", I think that the issue is that we've lost sight of what "good" is, the shops may be filled with lots of edible goods, but very little of it is a nutritional foodstuff.

If we trusted the Government to get involved in taxing "bad" food, I think we would end up with more mixed messages and things would only get worse.

We've got to change our mindset a and as well as on a personal level, we need to think how our choices are affecting the planet and everyone, Globally.

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whitershadeofpale · 03/09/2015 23:41

I agree generally that if you get the quantities right you could lose weight on any diet, but that doesn't mean it's healthy. I don't want to dwell to much on my mum's diet but to me that advise is very carb/ sugar heavy and not enough veg, you would have to eat quiet small portions to lose.

But there's been times in the past when I haven't lost weight or gained when I have genuinely believed I was eating well (and following doctor's advise-they've never given me or my dm portion guidance). I now can see what was wrong with what I was eating (skimmed, everything, wholemeal, sweeteners, lots of fruit- but too big portions, too much sugar, too much carb). This made me feel defeated, hungry and like there was no point in trying as 'I'm still not losing weight even when I'm doing everything right'. I've had my thyroid checked as I honestly believed there must have been something medically wrong with me.

Admittedly this was before the wide usage of the internet so advise was more likely to come from magazines but even now I think sometimes there's just so much information it's hard to know what's right.

I think a major issue that should be tackled is hidden sugar, but taxing individuals will achieve nothing, people will just pay the extra few pence (how often do you seriously and long-term reduce your drinking after a budget).

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LaurieMarlow · 03/09/2015 23:55

OP I couldn't agree more. While there is some consensus about what constitutes healthy eating, there have been many U turns over the years (eggs going from villain to hero for example).

There's a very woolly understanding about how people most effectively lose weight. Isn't there a growing body of evidence to suggest that low calorie is not nearly as effective as low carb?

There's no point in using economic policy to nudge people into making better decisions if we don't know what those better decisions might be.

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Lurkedforever1 · 03/09/2015 23:59

Taxing some food is hugely unfair. I don't expect non smokers to pay tax on my tobacco, so I don't see why I should pay it on someone elses eating habits to discourage them/ pay for extra nhs cost. If anything has to be taxed it should be something like plus size clothing so everyone else isn't penalised. Tbh though it's a waste of time. If all the shit that goes with being obese isn't sufficient to lose weight, then paying a bit more isn't going to suddenly convince you. Because if you're fat, your already spending more than you should on food. So a tax is a waste of time unless it's for the nhs.
As for 'bad' foods, bollocks to that too. Nothing sold legally as edible is 'bad' for us. It's only bad if you eat too much for you. With possibly one or two exceptions, nobody fat that I know is sat at home dipping pies in a lard fondue, washed down with chocolate gateaux smoothies. Most eat significantly less the same types of food I do. But in different ratios and/or without the exercise to burn it off.
People can give advice, whether it's pseudo scientific dietary bullshit or actual facts about the effects of certain types of food. But only the individual can actually discover and stick to the quantities of each their body needs.

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Lurkedforever1 · 04/09/2015 00:06

And to add, my own diet is very carb heavy. Think rationing era type, but with more cheese and probably more sugar. And despite the clap trap spouted about carbs, I'm not fat, just like people weren't back then.

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redstrawberry10 · 04/09/2015 00:29

that diet is so low in veg.

over the years I have really developed a taste for veg. the recommended lunch and breakfast have no veg or fresh fruit.

that's our issue. reliance on processed food.

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ShakesBootyFlabWobbles · 04/09/2015 00:54

Crisps, sweets and chocolate are already taxed at 20% VAT.

Fresh fruit, vegetables, meat, fish, dairy and bread/rice/pasta are not taxed.

So the existing 20% VAT difference isn't having any impact really.

The suggestion of having more foods taxed is VU. As is the notion that a so called fat tax on top of VAT applicable foods will impact obesity.

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redstrawberry10 · 04/09/2015 01:07

So the existing 20% VAT difference isn't having any impact really.

that's just saying that the VAT isn't good enough, and it's easy to see why. Calorie for calorie, stomach space for stomach space, crisps, chocolate and processed food are all cheap.

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dementedDementor · 04/09/2015 01:13

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand why the meal plan in the op would make someone gain weight? As long as the portion sizes are sensible I don't see the issue. It says meat and 2 veg type dinners, not only 2 veg allowed, you can easily add more.

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whitershadeofpale · 04/09/2015 02:05

I think putting the particular meal in the OP was a mistake. The issue is that although some people would say that was a good diet (as evidenced by this thread) others (eg Dr John Briffa) would say that it's a poor diet and would be unlikely to lead to long-term sustained health and weight loss.

There isn't a consensus and opinions change, when I was younger high carb low fat was always recommended, now we're told to look at food GI and that protein keeps us fuller for longer, margarine was better than butter, eggs would give you high cholesterol etc etc.

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Mistigri · 04/09/2015 05:20

I think that taking advice on what constitutes a healthy diet from a media nutritionist with books and a website to plug is not necessarily very sensible. Especially when the media nutritionist in question has a record of dodgy science (Google his past statements on the MMR for eg).

While there is plenty of bad science and lack of consensus in the nutrition field, there is agreement that hidden sugars and empty calories in things like soft drinks are a significant contributor to obesity.

Whether a tax would work, I don't know - I'd like to see some evidence from other countries before forming an opinion.

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