Nicola sturgeon is right we shouldn't leave the EU unless all four countries vote for it

(134 Posts)
pettywitchinlondon Thu 28-May-15 17:25:35

I have a lot of time for ns despite not being Scottish or living in Scotland, she is a breath of fresh air and stands for progressive forward thinking.

She's spot on about this double lock right?

21pc Thu 28-May-15 17:30:35

No because it is the UK as a whole otherwise we might as well all split up and then each country can hold their own referendum as to whether they want to be in the EU or not

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 Thu 28-May-15 17:31:09

You shouldn't leave the EU at all, it would be an idiotic move.

Andrewofgg Thu 28-May-15 17:34:16

The UK joined, the UK should leave or preferably stay.

On the other hand the Union was between Scotland and England/Wales and then there was a Union between GB and Ireland, so the Union should remain unless Scotland and the rest of the UK both vote to end it. Which is how it should have been done in September last.

purits Thu 28-May-15 17:47:01

No, she is not right. She doesn't seem to understand how democracy works.

RagstheInvincible Thu 28-May-15 17:49:35

No she's wrong. The UK Govt. which rules the whole of the UK signed up to the EU and it alone has the power to take us out.

Personally, I think it would be a disaster if we left but as far as this referendum goes, the opinion of the Scots. Govt. is not relevant. Scotland is not a member of the EU in its own right any more that Devon or London are. It's a UK issue for the UK Govt.

DidoTheDodo Thu 28-May-15 17:51:22

Agree with rags. It is an issue for the whole of the UK...one person, one vote.

sparechange Thu 28-May-15 17:51:24

No, she is wrong. That isn't how democracy works.
It isn't a huge leap from what she is saying to suggest that Scotland shouldn't be allowed to leave the Union without the support of all 4 countries, and I can't see her being in favour of that come the next Scottish referendem...

WinterOfOurDiscountTents15 Thu 28-May-15 17:51:39

Except if the UK govt tries to leave the EU, it will trigger another referendum on Scotland leaving the UK and staying in the EU without you.

SantanaLopez Thu 28-May-15 17:52:53

No, she's not.

If the majority of English, N.I. and Welsh voters (pop. 59 million I think) choose to leave, who the fuck is she/ Scotland to turn round and say that 5.2 million people think differently so actually, your opinion doesn't matter?

Happybodybunny12 Thu 28-May-15 17:53:34

I think recent success has gone to her head.

Of course she's wrong.

She lost the vote for an independent Scotland and as such it's still part if the UK as a whole.

Her argument makes no sense and is undemocratic.

SantanaLopez Thu 28-May-15 17:54:20

Except if the UK govt tries to leave the EU, it will trigger another referendum on Scotland leaving the UK and staying in the EU without you.

It can trigger another referendum but Scotland could not stay in the EU- it's not a member in its own right. It would have to reapply.

SwedishEdith Thu 28-May-15 17:54:38

I suspect she know exactly how democracy works. By pushing this argument, she'll nudge even more Scots to want to leave the UK.

Happybodybunny12 Thu 28-May-15 17:55:54

Well if it triggers another referendum for Scotland to stay part of the UK or go. So be it. Make your bloody minds up. grin

Twooter Thu 28-May-15 17:56:28

She is just looking for an excuse for another referendum.

FuzzyWizard Thu 28-May-15 17:57:06

I have been pondering this and I'm a bit torn. In lots of ways our constitution works really well but in others it doesn't. In the U.S. (I am aware that their potical system has many flaws) they use equal representation of all 50 states in the senate, regardless of population to ensure that smaller states aren't simply steam rollered by more populous ones. They then have a constituency based system for the House of Representatives so that states with larger populations have more representation. Maybe we need some sort of system that does similar. A body in which Scotland, England, Wales and NI have equal representation to work with the House of Commons as a constitutional lock. Scotland wouldn't be able to Veto in that system but England wouldn't be able to drag Wales, NI and Scotland into policies unwillingly when they affect the whole of the Union.

Happybodybunny12 Thu 28-May-15 17:57:37

Scotland can't automatically stay in the EU without the rest if the UK. They would have to apply again.

BeenWondering Thu 28-May-15 17:57:46

I grant you that she's a breath of fresh air but I'll also add that that's what they used to say about Tony Blair. So tread carefully.

We currently operate as one nation so I don't see why we should start splitting hairs over the EU. There are far greater issues that affect the four of us as a whole than the EU so a referendum wouldn't be my starting point. TBh otoh want to talk NHS you wouldn't be unreasonable.

FuzzyWizard Thu 28-May-15 18:00:24

I realise my post didn't actually answer the question. I think NS is wrong about Scotland getting a veto but do think we need to ensure that the voices of Wales, Scotland and NI aren't lost.

RunnerHasbeen Thu 28-May-15 18:01:04

I think what she is suggesting represents a more mature and sensible type of union between the four parts of the UK. The US works better (in this way) because they make allowances for the difference in state size and do not allow the largest ones to dominate all the decisions. If the UK is to stay intact, this type of arrangement needs to be considered. Not letting Scotland set the terms when it suits, but some real thinking of how we prevent England dominating to the extent it does, that doesn't make a happy or fair union for any of the parts. I do find it strange that NS is both written off on MN for wanting independence and for trying to make the union work better - it's a real "like it or lump it" message - not what we vote for our MPs for.

Andrewofgg Thu 28-May-15 18:02:19

FuzzyWizard why should 51% of the total population of Scotland, Wales and NI be able to outvote 51% of the much larger population of England?

WhetherOrNot Thu 28-May-15 18:03:20

She lost the vote for independent Scotland, so her people have voted to remain part of Great Britain. And should vote as such.

Success has gone to her sad little head. hmm

FuzzyWizard Thu 28-May-15 18:10:33

Why should England be able to pass policies that affect Wales, Scotland and NI without the consent of any of those nations? The current situation where they just have to put up with what the English decide is what drives nationalism.

Andrewofgg Thu 28-May-15 18:14:14

As much as can be devolved is devolved. You might as well ask why should Sussex be able to pass policies which affect Northumberland or vice versa.

TheChandler Thu 28-May-15 18:16:37

Well, she hasn't properly substantiated her argument. Probably because its not possible to do so - she is a lawyer, and will be fully aware that it is the UK that is a signatory to international treaties, not the individual states. So what she is saying goes back to this invented thing of the SNP - "it is, just because we say it is".

I find that very unconstitutional, and far more of a risk to our freedoms and democracy than the constituent parts of the UK not having a disproportionate say over whether the UK as a whole leaves international agreements.

In fact, the "it is, just because we say it is" attitude is I think going to create real problems for Scotland in coming years.

I'm also heartily sick of the Nicola Sturgeon fan club. Its very tiresome. Scotland is packed full of much more intelligent, genuine and talented women (and men) than her, and she appears to appeal to lets say a certain type of slightly gullible, wannabee person, who hero worship her. One of the greatest disciples of Nicola Sturgeon that I know is a woman of 36 who has dropped out of two publicly funded university degrees and never held down a full time job, married or had children, yet who seems to think the large amount of spare time she has qualifies her to tell other people how to think. I therefore tend to have that image in my mind when faced with Nicola Sturgeon hero worshippers.

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