To not understand the fuss about last night's Game of Thrones? (Spoilers!)

[Plateofcrumbs]

Discussing latest episode of GoT, will obviously contain spoliers

AIBU to not understand why there has been such uproar about the rape of Sansa Stark. In the context of all the atrocious stuff that happens in GoT it just didn't strike me as particularly significant - what am I missing?

Is it rape in general that is beyond the pale (if so, why?), or something more about the context?

[YouTheCat]

The uproar is because it doesn't happen in the books and doesn't seem to be adding anything to the story.

[limitedperiodonly]

I wasn't offended. It was in context with the characters.

Ramsay Bolton is a sadist and someone who is keen on humiliating people he perceives to be of higher social status.

He is also a sexual masochist so Sansa could presumably hurt him. Not that she might want to do that because he would enjoy it and she's not that kind of person.

I vote for Theon getting the courage to brain Ramsay with a big candlestick in the opening scene of the next episode.

[YouTheCat]

I really hope that happens, limited.

[prepperpig]

It wasn't in the books but the tv series is starting to depart from the books at this stage in general. I think it was completely in context with the characters and the storyline.

[limitedperiodonly]

It probably won't YouTheCat but for a moment I was thinking: 'Go on Theon, do it! The arrogant bastard is helpless.'

[MokunMokun]

I think after the scene when Jaime raped Cersei people are sensitive about it. I can see the context here though. I wish they'd hurry up and kill off Ramsey though.

[Debs75]

He didn't rape her in the books but remember it was an Arya lookalike he married in the books. He also humiliated 'Arya' and Theon by making Theon 'get her ready for me'

[Plateofcrumbs]

Yes I had a greater problem with the Cersai/Jaimie scene as that felt rather gratuitous, and it wasn't entirely clear whether we were supposed to read it as 'rape' (I seem to recall the show runners saying it wasn't intended that way?)

Whereas the Ramsey and Sansa scene seemed entirely in context - the would be an expectation that the marriage would be consummated so it was grimly inevitable. Given how sadistic Ramsey has been shown to be I was expecting much worse - I think it was handled well.

[50ShadesofNope]

The outrage is because it's the third (I think, happy to be corrected) time a central female character has been raped in the TV series where they weren't in the book. It may be contextual in this instance (in the book something similar happens but to a different character. I think they're combining the characters in the series) but I guess people think it's the final straw. It's not because she was raped, it's because the TV producers keep using rape as their way of making things more exciting and shocking. Deviating from the books is one thing, and I can understand why they need to streamline characters to keep it simpler, but it just seems to be getting closer to the whole 'GOT is just an excuse for watching costumed male fantasy' idea rather than clever writing or exploring the depth of the characters properly, particularly the women. Sansa's storyline is totally different in the book and while changing it is a shame, it isn't the end of the world. But watching most major female characters get raped, especially when their characters are developed so well in the books, is brutal. It just doesn't sit right that they feel it is necessary for entertainment purposes, and the culmination of all of the extra sex and nudity and rape is starting to take its toll, which is a shame because the storyline is so spectacular and the characters so complex.

Disclaimer I haven't seen the episode yet so this is what I can glean from friends talking about it and my vague recollections of the books.

[EmeraldThief]

Sansa looked absolutely stunning last night, I've never thought her particularly special before but she looked so pretty all done up for her wedding. Shame it was to that cunt, gosh he makes my flesh crawl.

Isn't she still married to Tyrion though? So how does that work out.

[50ShadesofNope]

Wow sorry about the lack of paragraphs. I'm typing on my phone and didn't realise how long it was

[AryaUnderfoot]

Ramsey is a truly horrible character.

In the books he locks up his first wife until she starves to death. I think it's also implied that he murders his legitimate brother (I could be making that up). The Boltons are pretty vile. This was totally in keeping. They were hardly going to consummate their marriage over champagne and truffles.

[clarabellabunting]

There's quite a long explanation here as to why some are so angry about it:
www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/

I'm not sure I agree. I think that Sansa's character is playing the long-game and made a decision to marry Ramsay and put up with whatever he did to her. She must be using this marriage as a means to gain something - revenge? the North? - and saw a wedding night with the horrible Ramsay as worth enduring to achieve her goals.

I also think it's unfair to say that Sansa's character has lost its agency because this happened to her and she didn't even try to stop it. That has worrying implications for rape victims in real life - they don't all fight and there's nothing wrong with that. Say that it is detrimental to Sansa's character that she had such a passive response is insulting to women who have really been attacked and didn't 'fight'.

[limitedperiodonly]

What Ramsay has done to Theon is far greater than his rape of Sansa.

That's not to diminish her suffering, but in terms of physical pain, ongoing disfigurement, physical problems and psychological degradation I know which fate I'd choose.

No one started a thread about that.

I'm far from a MRA person BTW.

I just don't like the idea that rape is a fate worse than death for women or should never be referenced in popular culture in word or form.

I'm not diminishing it or women who have been damaged physically or psychologically.

But neither am I diminishing the ability of countless women to overcome it and treat their rapists as the scum that they are.

[SomeSortOfDeliciousBiscuit]

Considering that in the books, the 'Arya' character has her breasts literally chewed up by Ramsay, Sansa got off lightly. They've merged the two characters somewhat. It was uncomfortable viewing but I also thought it was in keeping with the characters, and could have been so much worse.

[MokunMokun]

Yes, that's a good point that she's still married to Tyrion. I guess because the marriage wasn't consumated. It's all a bit odd.

I think because I've read the books I'm more sick of Ramsey than the TV show watchers perhaps. The scenes in the book really were awful.

I'm glad they brought back Bronn and the guy with Arya (Haagar?). I wish they could bring back Oberyn. I'm finding the Dorne scenes more interesting than the book and Mereen was kind of dull in the book too.

This week they brought in Adebesi/Me Eko, so pleased!!

[clarabellabunting]

I found Dorne soooooo boring in the books but in the show it is much more interesting so far.

I'm also really glad they seem to have disposed with all of the Iron Islands stuff because that was a snooze fest in the books too.

[TheCraicDealer]

I do wonder if playing Ramsey has made it more difficult for that actor to pull though. I've literally had nightmares about him.

[MokunMokun]

Oh, yes the Iron Islands were dull. All the Nuncles. Actually where is Theon's sister now? I remember she set sail to save him after she received his cock. But is she still on her way?

[rookiemere]

I'm slightly disappointed with the fifth season overall, and the rape scene fits right into that.

The first 3 series were so delicately crafted that Joffrey's humiliation of Sansa flowed iyswim - it seemed absolutely necessary for the plot development and made total sense.

I felt the scene last night was not only fairly inevitable, but was offered up as a way to spruce a slightly boring episode. Also it was sad to see Sansa return to form as pure victim when she'd shown a bit more pluck in the past couple of episodes. I'm sure I'm expressing that all wrong and I don;t mean to but hopefully people will know what I mean.

[flora717]

Never get attached to characters. I think there's a confusion that this is all going to end in Disney style where the just will prevail. GOT is very much about the history being written by the "winners". The departure from the books is useful, they are different formats. TV is all about the shock. It was consistent.

[flora717]

(Obviously made up history).

[AlwaysAFool]

Its not the worst thing to happen in game of thrones, in the book or the programme.
And just because they added it in doesnt maerong Wrong.

Sansa is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

[AlwaysAFool]

Other than that I thought last night episode was boring.

[BeyondDoesBootcamp]

Why would sansa fight? The time to fight would have been running away some time before the ceremony, not marrying him and then fighting him off. And yes, obviously to us it is rape, but (i assume based on world history) it isnt 'rape rape' (urgh, sorry) in GoT land. Women will know there as they did here in the uk until 1991 (emphasis on that date again!) that forced sex within the marriage contract is legal.

So no, i dont think it is gratuitous for tv, especially with jeyne pooles storyline in the book. Someone did marry and was raped by ramsey, they've just altered who a little.

Oh, and another yes to dorne bein more watchable than readable