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AIBU?

Beavers, scouts, Church and finding a place to live...

80 replies

AcademicOwl · 20/08/2014 10:55

Ok... slightly random question... We're looking to re-locate (can't afford to buy/rent any more in the area we live in) and went down to a rural bit of Devon (lived in Plymouth for 8 years, so know the area well) last weekend.

Thought it would be good to take DS (age 4) and DD (18m) to church (CofE) - we go fairly regularly here and although I'm an atheist who lost their faith, I like to think I'm open to being on a spiritual journey - and think it's important that children grow up understanding faith even if they don't choose it in the long run.

So, having a coffee afterwards and chatting to lots of lovely welcoming people. They mentioned the beavers & scouts and how wonderful they get so many in church on parade-day...
"yes" says one lady "they have to come to church or they're out. That's the rule."
"Really?" me, aghast.
"Yes, we give up a lot of our free time to run it, so they can at least come for that service. It's only last year that they stopped promising to do their duty to God, you know".
Carried on in same vein. Turns out that "they" are also "out" if they misbehave ("teachers have to put up with that stuff, but we don't).

I did gently challenge; but as there's no other obvious faith groups locally, apparently enforced presence at a church service is ok for all. As the beaver & scouts leaders pointed out, it's a civil service (remembrance day) and serving members of the armed forces go along.

You might ask, what is my problem; I was at church anyway... but it's the enforced approach of exclusion unless you submit to going to church. If that approach really worked then the church would have been heaving with tiny people (it wasn't and apparently Sunday school is lucky to get 2 or 3 children).

It's put me off moving to such a seemingly intolerant community; esp if I'd like DS to be involved in local beavers & scouts, etc. Plus, he's in early stages of being diagnosed with something autistic spectrum/ADHD/??? so he can be very disruptive and I'd hate to think that he'd be excluded. I'm fairly certain that wouldn't happen here (I know the local leader and he's always fab with DS).

Can anyone put my mind at rest? Or am I just a wishy-washy Guardian reader?

OP posts:
SorryForTheTypos · 20/08/2014 11:00

I remember in the 80s having my promise badge taken off me because my mum flat out refused to bother with "any of that church stuff" - I wasn't actually kicked out of Brownies, but I never went back as I was really embarrassed.

My children now go to a uniformed organisation and I force them to go to church parade. I think the leaders put so much into the weekly groups that I would feel bad about letting them down at church parade.

I understand what you are saying, but I do think YABU. A bit anyway.

Floggingmolly · 20/08/2014 11:00

How many Parade days do they have per year? Less than you think, I'll bet... And as to the "if they misbehave, they're out"?? Sounds fair enough to me Confused.
They're volunteers, remember, they most assuredly don't have to take any shit in the process of looking after your kids.
I can't believe you found anything there to challenge; "gently" or otherwise.

SorryForTheTypos · 20/08/2014 11:02

Oh and I meant to say, usually uniformed organisations meet in the church hall, using church facilities - it just seems like give and take to me.

NigellasPeeler · 20/08/2014 11:04

AFAIK it is only one service a year
also why should volunteers put up with bad behaviour? if kids do not like it their attendance is also voluntary, so don't send them...

WaffleWiffle · 20/08/2014 11:06

It's only last year that they stopped promising to do their duty to God, you know".

That's Girlguiding, not Scouting.

apparently enforced presence at a church service is ok for all.

You could be misunderstanding group expectations, rather than individual. It is often the case that when groups are given rent free use of a hall (often church hall) some expectations are placed on that group - for example attendance and certain services or parades. It is pay-back for the group getting free use of the hall.

NigellasPeeler · 20/08/2014 11:08

speaking as someone whose son was asked not to come back if i recall correctly, after he spent most of the time with his cub scarf worn over his mouth in a gangster style attempting to disrupt the group.
equally he said why should he go out in the evenings wearing a 'candy arsed monkey suit' 'to be shouted at by a bunch of c@@@s' .
I did see his point Grin

Thenapoleonofcrime · 20/08/2014 11:11

I wouldn't move to an area on the basis of them being nice in Scouts or Beavers. Really, there's too much variation on what the groups are like, what the leaders are like and even if your son went to one that was brilliant, the leader might get up and leave and I do think the leader very much sets the tone (a bit like a headteacher in a school).

ElephantsNeverForgive · 20/08/2014 11:11

They sound a bit defensive and over hopeful to me.

Truth is they will get boys who misbehave and don't go to church and unless they have a huge waiting list, or a totally free meeting hall, they won't throw them out.

Scouts are slightly more religious than Guides. No one seemed to notice that I avoided taking my promise as a adult. I was Brown Owl of the 1st Suburb name (at Local Church) Brownies. The vicar was lovely, she didn't expect to see us in church except Remembrance and was totally fine with Halloween parties.

Honestly, I'd take the grumps with a pinch of salt. In any case there will be another group in the next village.

itiswhatitiswhatitis · 20/08/2014 11:11

We don't attend church but dc's go to cubs and I think it is fair enough to expect their attendance at parade days. I also like the fact that poor behaviour isn't tolerated. However my ds has ASD as does another young lad in the group and the leaders are wonderful with them.

EduCated · 20/08/2014 11:12

As a Guider it makes me cross and sad to ear opinions like that, but sadly they remain prevalent in some areas. Even more sadly, even the unit I help with still have a bit of a bee in their bonnet about church parade. The church we meet at do help us out by forgetting to charge us rent and I do think it's nice to show appreciation for that, but I don't agree that it follows that we should coerce or guilt trip the girls into attending church parade Sad

titchy · 20/08/2014 11:13

There is a code of behaviour expected of scout members, and if a child cannot adhere to that code the consequences should be clear - e.g. asked to sit out an activity, banned for two meetings, or indeed permanently excluded, although I would expect the latter only for the most serious of behaviour - continued violence for example.

Clearly is a child has specific difficulties or disabilities then that has to be taken into account, but this would mean maybe having a parent attend with them, not letting them disrupt the meeting. As others have pointed out leaders are volunteers, and it's not fair on them or the other kids to have that ruined by one kid who will not behave.

As for church services, well the expectation is that all attend the annual remembrance day service, and all attend St Georges Day parade where their promise is renewed. Both are secular services, and twice a year isn't really onerous. Our District doesn't turf kids out if they don't attend, but the expectation is that they will. And do you have any idea of the logistics of arranging a parade for 400 6 -18 year olds - roadblocks, police, parking etc etc (all organised by above mentioned volunteers)! The least parents can do is drag their kid along!

JerseySpud · 20/08/2014 11:14

Over here, as a Beaver Scout Leader our Beavers attend St Georges Day, Remeberance Day and we also have Liberation Day as well.

Other than that we do not attend any other ceremonies. Scouting has become open to all religions and we explore other religions when we do our Global Challenge badges and our Faith badges.

And as for Scouts being more religious that Guides, only slightly. We have an alternative promise for any child who does not want to mention God (i took it myself). Guides seem to have taken it to an extreme now, especially with their god awful new uniform!!

Thenapoleonofcrime · 20/08/2014 11:14

I also think it's a bit rich to describe them as a seemingly intolerant community- they welcomed you and your son with open arms, chatted to you and so on. One lady gave you her account of the local organization, although as someone said, I think she was thinking of Guides which your son will not be joining.

But if you don't like church parades, for sure don't get your son to join Scouts or Beavers- as others have said, the deal is often cheap or free use of the hall, these are organizations with Christian roots and even if your son doesn't get thrown out (extremely unlikely) for not attending, he will be asked to attend and so may feel pressure to do so.

EduCated · 20/08/2014 11:16

Nigella Your 8-10 1/2 year old son really used those words? Delightful.

Unexpected · 20/08/2014 11:16

From your post, it seems they are only asking for attendance at ONE church service/parade per year, which seems fair enough to me. DS2 is Catholic but attends the annual Remembrance Day parade and service at the local CofE every year. We are practising Catholics but even if we weren't of a particular faith, I would ensure he went to that service if at all possible. If I was atheist, for me that would be about honouring the dead rather than subscribing to that particular faith.

I think the point about not allowing children to stay if they are mis-behaving is fair enough, to a point, as well. We have only (to my knowledge) had one child asked not to continue with Scouts at our local pack. He had ODD and was extremely disruptive, the leaders (all volunteers as someone mentioned) tried over and above what they needed to do but eventually it was mutually agreed with his parents to call it a day. Otherwise, they take everyone and they have had to put up with some really silly behaviour over the years. Why should they be expected to put up with everything?

JohnFarleysRuskin · 20/08/2014 11:17

Can't comment on the area or how representative these people are of the area....However, at our beavers, attending anything to do with church is strictly optional, there is no pressure at all, and DC did the new style vows about loving everything rather than God. I love them for it and am more inclined to volunteer to help than I would have been!

stealthsquiggle · 20/08/2014 11:17

Rural community with scouts and guides here - there was certainly a strong expectation that they would be there for church on Rememberance day and one other which I cannot recall but I never tested whether they would be thrown out if they didn't - DS left when he reached the point that his school day overlapped with cubs so it couldn't be done, and DD is about to start Brownies.

Tolerance of / support for/ inclusion of DC with SN was definitely there, but disruptive behaviour for the sake of it was stamped on fairly firmly - again, I can't recall anyone being asked to leave, but a couple of parents commented (favourably) on the fact that a higher standard of behaviour was demanded of them at cubs than at school.

So I think you may have met a particularly blunt leader, OP, rather than it being an intolerant community as such. I hope.

NigellasPeeler · 20/08/2014 11:18

yes educated he did what of it? all junior school children know those words.
the first line was a quote from the Blues Brothers which we have enjoyed as a family many many times.

Unexpected · 20/08/2014 11:18

I am assuming Nigella is exaggerating her son's behaviour slightly? If not, then I think probably best for everyone that he didn't continue with Cubs.

ElephantsNeverForgive · 20/08/2014 11:20

.

Beavers, scouts, Church and finding a place to live...
NigellasPeeler · 20/08/2014 11:21

absolutely unexpected.
there are some children who wouldnt mind going out in the evening to be yelled at, and some that would object. quite frankly I am happy that my son is in the second group

Stinkle · 20/08/2014 11:22

I have 1 DD in Scouts, 1 in Cubs.

It is an expectation, that unless there's a very good reason, they attend parades. There's only 2, Remembrance Sunday and St George's Day

They want to do the fun stuff, they have to do the less fun stuff.

And yes, why should volunteers put up with bad behaviour? Our group are very good at working with children when SN are involved, but general bad behaviour? No. 2 cubs in DD's group have recently been asked to leave, the leaders tried really hard to work with parents who seemed to feel that £2 a week was a bargain for 2 hours baby sitting, but constant hitting, kicking, charging around disrupting everyone else wasn't on.

If you're worried about your son being kicked out for being disruptive, how about offering to volunteer so you can be an extra pair of hands?

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Thenapoleonofcrime · 20/08/2014 11:22

I think the point is that Beavers and Scouts are not a social service, they are volunteers who give up their time. It's up to them how they run their organization and what they expect of their members.

I find the leaders of my children's Brownies and Guides quite brusque and not very good with children. But that's the choice- I don't have to send them and they don't have to go.

I think it's a little odd to categorize a community as intolerant off what one person said, especially as they were in the church having coffees and being welcomed at the time (again, all free volunteer led activities).

Small places do have a distinctive community though and you do have to think whether you would fit in there in a wider sense. I would be more concerned if there's a good school/pre-school with SN provision myself as that will make a far bigger difference to your son's life than whether he attends a parade with scouts.

EduCated · 20/08/2014 11:22

I clearly live in a parallel universe.

weegiemum · 20/08/2014 11:24

The Scouts my ds and dd2 attend don't do church services (we're at our own church anyway), but they have "expelled" people for bad behaviours!

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