To not see why people are so annoyed...?

(366 Posts)
curiousgeorgie Tue 29-Jul-14 23:31:25

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709730/Richard-Dawkins-sparks-outrage-Twitter-debate-saying-date-rape-bad-stranger-rape-worse.html

Sorry for the daily mail link, I know some don't like that.

I think I agree with him and I don't think it takes anything away from victims.... Am I wrong?

Peekingduck Tue 29-Jul-14 23:37:12

Phew, have you got your tin hat on?
So if someone you thought you could trust and who you were dating rapes you, it's not as bad as if a stranger did it?
Is that what you believe?

TheGoop Tue 29-Jul-14 23:39:34

You think there are levels of rape?

So if a father rapes a daughter it's not as bad as if it was a stranger?
Because she knew him?

curiousgeorgie Tue 29-Jul-14 23:39:34

Yeah, I think so. It's awful, no one is taking that away. (That's the point I think?)

But surely a stranger is worse?!

curiousgeorgie Tue 29-Jul-14 23:40:24

I was replying to the first poster.... A father is not a 'date rape'. That's not the same thing.

NynaevesSister Tue 29-Jul-14 23:42:38

No. There is no difference. If you are raped knowing who the guy is doesn't make it any less awful.

TheGoop Tue 29-Jul-14 23:42:49

Or hang on, are you agreeing with his analogy or with that kind of view on rape?

I can see what he was trying to say or demonstrate but he shouldn't have used rape and pedophilia to make hs point.

He's an idiot.

DirtyDancing Tue 29-Jul-14 23:43:24

So it's much nicer to be raped by someone you know.

It's much easier on the victim if the person that forces them to have sex, against their will, has spent the evening with them first.

Are you fucking insane? Rape is still rape.

FFS

wishmynamewasdave Tue 29-Jul-14 23:44:19

I don't think you can say one us worse than the other - they are both pretty horrendous.
I suppose - if you are thinking that date rape involves someone that in other circumstances you may have allowed to touch you. Whereas stranger rape involves someone that you haven't, and probably find the thought of that person pretty grotesque whatever the circumstances.
I don't believe one is worse than the other though - they are both the same but different, and both deserve to be treated as equal.

NynaevesSister Tue 29-Jul-14 23:44:41

And also why on earth would you even feel the need to make this point? What on earth could come of making this argument? Will it make the date raped woman feel better????

Thomyorke Tue 29-Jul-14 23:46:52

As with any crime it is an individual act, wether it be a stranger or a friend at knifepoint. All acts of rape are violation and each victim deserves the justice that their case warrants ( usually more than given). Comparing just creates grey areas.

WorraLiberty Tue 29-Jul-14 23:47:04

I wonder if he would feel the same way if he were raped by a close and trusted male friend and then raped again by a stranger.

I doubt it somehow...

TheGoop Tue 29-Jul-14 23:48:17

He should have stuck with 'X is bad, Y is worse' there are so many other a
Examples he could have used apart from rape!

For example, diet... 'Butter is bad, margarine is worse' but let's just say a health professional was giving advice about picking between those things... Clearly the are saying out of the two things butter is the.esser of two evils, but you should if possible just have neither.

curiousgeorgie Tue 29-Jul-14 23:49:05

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Namechangearoonie123 Tue 29-Jul-14 23:49:36

I think it's worse to be raped by someone you know.

For me personally - would never say that's it's better to be raped by a stranger, just not the right terminology.

The abuse of trust would be awful. The fact you might be married or dating them sad

And who gives a fuck what Dawkins thinks.

The day I care about what a man thinks about what happens to my orifices in rape is the day I start to simper

FlossyMoo Tue 29-Jul-14 23:49:57

OP any kind of rape is vile.

However for this thread I will look at the two.

To be raped by a stranger means this scumbag did not see you as a person. They saw you as a means to an end. Nothing you did (not that that is ever a reason) caused this stranger to rape you. You were there wrong time wrong place. You were unlucky.

To be raped by someone you know.
They know you as a person. They know who you are, about your personality, likes/dislikes. Yet they still thought that you were worth nothing. You as a person meant so little to them they could violate you and not care. Does that mean you are a bad person? Does that make you at fault some how?

As I said ANY rape is a vile act but for me to be raped by somebody who knows me would be harder to live with. In fact it is harder to live with.

elQuintoConyo Tue 29-Jul-14 23:53:17

That's what I was thinking, Worra , if the shoe was on the other foot and all that.

I once read a statistic aimed at men (I may be mis-quoting, it was a long time ago!), that said '1 in 4 women will raped in their lifetime. Who would you prefer it to be: your mother, your daughter, your sister or your wife?'

Perhaps I should ask RD that on Twitter, maybe he thinks pne is 'less bad' on the others?

HerrenaHarridan Tue 29-Jul-14 23:54:13

Ime it's actually the other way round.

If a strangers forces you in a violent way, while it's still deeply upsetting the victim may find that they do not question themselves in the same way, the phrase I've heard from several people is "I did what I had to do to survive"

It is worse if there is a breach of trust. If a friend, partner,family member or parent breaches that, makes you feel that unsafe all previous relationship with them is tainted and all future relationship destroyed.

a stranger won't be popping up at all your family events, or sitting opposite you at your child's wedding.

That's no consolation if it's your attacker was a stranger to you but you'll but you'll be acutely aware of it if it was your uncle or baby's father.

NumTumDeDum Tue 29-Jul-14 23:55:22

W

Preciousbane Tue 29-Jul-14 23:57:55

There is no type of better rape, ever.

My ex husband raped me. I left him 20 years ago, when highly stressed I still dream he is after me.

He should keep his theoretical thoughts on rape in his own head rather than categorising survivors of rape and informing us that our type of rape was not as bad as another type.

HerrenaHarridan Tue 29-Jul-14 23:58:28

Cross post with name change and flossy.

I'm glad it's not just me trying to explain that. I wasn't sure if I was going to get ripped apart. Although I'm sorry that you understand.

AgadorSpartacus Wed 30-Jul-14 00:05:32

Well

1. Yes rape is rape. No varying degrees of.
2. Rape should not have been used to explain his tedious point.
3. Whether he actually believes in varying degrees of rape or simply thought this analogy was a good idea the man is revolting.

basgetti Wed 30-Jul-14 00:07:24

Jesus. Sorry, must've forgot this was mumsnet for a second and that you can't possibly have a reasonable discussions.

Perhaps it should have occurred to you that for some posters, myself included, this isn't a theoretical discussion but a very traumatic part of our lives. And that people may understandably get defensive about it. I had a nervous breakdown after my so called 'date rape'. Just because he didn't jump out of a bush it doesn't make my experience any less painful.

And every time some idiot perpetuates the view that there are different degrees of rape, be that a politician, an atheist on twitter or even someone starting a thread on Mumsnet, it adds to the struggle rape victims have. It reinforces rape myths, contributes to victim blaming and causes immense distress.

whois Wed 30-Jul-14 00:07:25

I don't think one type or rape is worse/better, but they are different. I imagine the feelings afterwards of being 'date raped' might really impact how you form relationships and doubt your judgement for example, but a violent tale at knife point would mean you struggled with other things.

Probably both equally traumatic in different ways. Hopefully I won't ever have to experience either although it seems a horrible number of women are subjected to one or the other :-(

NumTumDeDum Wed 30-Jul-14 00:07:38

Well, I have been raped more than once. The first time was by a stranger. The second was my ex husband. So I can add some anecdotal evidence, though clearly it is subjective. Both were horrendous, my husband was more violent, I was afraid of both, I suffered (and continue to) suffer flashbacks, panic attacks and general anxiety. I experienced feelings of anger, rage, helplessness, guilt and shame (still do, can't talk about it in RL).

Which was worse? I honestly couldn't tell you. Perhaps my husband who knew I had been raped and chose to subject me to further ordeal.

But really, by discussing which is worse isn't it a slippery slope to saying at the other end of the scale, well it's only sex. The effect the act has on a person depends on who they are - I didn't cope very well, others I am sure cope better. Does that mean it was worse for me or them?

The only thing I'm really sure of is that it's a power crime, to dominate the other person and take away their feeling of being in control of their life. It's so much more complex than just sex. I do feel this categorisation and 'levels' of rape conversations distract attention from the perpetrator and focus attention instead on the person raped. I should say victim or survivor but I hate both terms. I have neither survived nor do I want to be a victim.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now