To think being anti Israel isn't the same as being anti semetic

(178 Posts)

Just like being anti extremist terrorist isn't the same as being anti Muslims.

Perhaps I worded it wrong, most people seem to have understood what I meant by it though...

QuintessentiallyQS Sun 27-Jul-14 11:03:24

Don't worry John is being deliberately obtuse and pedantic, I suspect. Everyone else get what you meant!

SetPhasersTaeMalkie Sun 27-Jul-14 11:07:35

I asked the same question as John as did one or two others.

Nothing obtuse or pedantic about checking exactly what the OP meant.

AlpacaYourThings Sun 27-Jul-14 11:08:23

YANBU. I do not agree with what the Israeli government are doing, that doesn't make me anti semitic.

ThisOneAndThatOne Sun 27-Jul-14 11:09:49

Agree. It was not clear to me what Jazz meant

JohnFarleysRuskin Sun 27-Jul-14 11:09:55

Er, some/many people believe Israel does not a right to exist.

Why wouldn't people want to be clear about whether they are anti Israel or anti Israels policies. They manage with other countries don't they?

MrsRuffdiamond Sun 27-Jul-14 11:13:24

I can completely see why Israel as a nation has got itself into this moral anomaly. I imagine that the history of The Jewish people means that they never again want to expose themselves to the vulnerability which has led to horrendous atrocities against them.

The irony being that the power they now have to protect themselves is currently being used to commit horrendous atrocities in turn against vulnerable Palestinians.

I wish Israel felt confident enough about itself to display some magnanimity in its dealings with

QuintessentiallyQS Sun 27-Jul-14 11:14:03

But that I'd not what Is bring questioned, I thought it was pretty obvious that the thread was in light of current atrocities, not the country's right to exist, which is currently not debated anywhere as far as I know.

ThisOneAndThatOne Sun 27-Jul-14 11:16:04

Being anti-Israels policies does not make you anti-Semitic.

But all anti-Semites are jumping on the anti-Israeli policy bandwagon.

So it's important to be clear with your language.

SetPhasersTaeMalkie Sun 27-Jul-14 11:18:45

It was the question posed though, and it is a position that many people have sympathy with. Hence the query, which the OP answered clearly enough.

MrsRuffdiamond Sun 27-Jul-14 11:18:47

Hamas. (Posted too soon!)

Probably a simplistic analysis, but it's what I think.

FairPhyllis Sun 27-Jul-14 11:19:10

Of course it's not anti-Semitic to criticise Israel's actions or policies. It is however anti-Semitic to imply or question whether Israel has a right to exist as a state, to say that Israelis have a special duty to behave in a saintlier way than anyone else because of the Holocaust, or to conflate Jewishness with Israel and suggest that non-Israeli Jews have a duty to oppose or have any kind of stance on Israel's actions.

I have seen posters do all of the above in the various Israel/Palestine threads over the last week.

Helen is right that the phrase 'anti-Israel' is a dog whistle phrase. If you use it without really thinking about it, what anti-Semitic bigots take from it is that you are secretly on their side. It reinforces their hatred of Jews.

I also think John is raising a fair point. I think most of the people in the UK who are horrified by Gaza are not anti-Semitic or anti-Israel but just objecting to the current violence. But many people protest Israeli actions from a standpoint that sees the Israeli state itself as illegitimate, and some do cross the line into anti-Semitic rhetoric and imagery.

I don't think criticising Israel is per se anti-Semitic, but I think people are naive if they think everyone criticising Israel is purely thinking of their actions and not their identity.

JohnFarleysRuskin Sun 27-Jul-14 11:24:32

Quintessential, you're joking, right?

chocolatemademefat Sun 27-Jul-14 11:24:43

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SetPhasersTaeMalkie Sun 27-Jul-14 11:27:26

I don't think there's any need for that chocolatemademefat. Plenty of other posters have agreed with John and explained why. Why single out one poster?

Quint of course Israel's right to exist is debated and disputed, all over the world. It doesn't even appear on maps you buy in the Middle East. Most Arab governments still do not recognise it as a country. And believe me, plenty of people in the UK do not accept it as a legitimate state either.

So within that reality, it is helpful to be extremely clear when it comes to the language we use.

larrygrylls Sun 27-Jul-14 11:37:33

It is definitely not anti-Semitic to question Israel's current actions. Many Jewish people have their reservations about many of Israel's policies, including many Israeli Jews.

However, there does seem to be an upsurge in anti Semitism across the UK and especially mainland Europe. Many 'anti Israel' protests seem full of anti Semitic slogans and to be Jewish (as I am by descent) is not a comfortable place to be right now.

Is being pro Hamas to be anti Semitic? Hmm, I actually think that it is, given that their stated aim is that Israel has no right to exist at all. In addition, there seem to be many people who don't think Israel has a right to retaliate against rocket attacks on civilians. To me, again, that is anti Semitic. To question how to respond and a degree of proportionality, on the other hand, seems reasonable.

Aeroflotgirl Sun 27-Jul-14 11:41:15

Yanbu it is nothing to do with being Jewish, Jewish people are against what Israel are doing to the Palestinians. It was Palestine to begin with, Isrealies started occupying Palestine, and have treated the Palestinians very badly. I am against any terror and bombing, but if this continues we are going to see more of it! America I don't know, there are many pro Isrealies in power in the US supporting Israel.

DogCalledRudis Sun 27-Jul-14 11:46:11

I believe Israel has a right to exist WITHOUT violating international law.

Dog do you believe Britain's right to exist is conditional on its adherence to international law? Because that could be trouble.

FairPhyllis Sun 27-Jul-14 11:55:55

Quint

"But that I'd not what Is bring questioned, I thought it was pretty obvious that the thread was in light of current atrocities, not the country's right to exist, which is currently not debated anywhere as far as I know."

Israel's right to exist is currently disputed by many people all over the world, including here in Britain. Hamas does not recognise Israel's right to exist. That is what the Israelis believe is at stake here: the very continued existence of their state.

AnnDaloozier Sun 27-Jul-14 11:57:07

Semitic

HTH

larrygrylls Sun 27-Jul-14 11:59:30

The huge interest in Palestinians seems to be almost entirely focused on Israel. It is funny that the Kuwaiti expulsion of 200,000 Palestinians in 1991 elicited no big reaction. Equally there seems little interest in how Palestinians are treated in Jordan (actually also a part of 'Palestine' pre the 1948 partition).

So, is it really concern of Palestinians or anti Semitic sentiment that motivates people? I am sure a mixture of both, but why so little interest in what is happening to Palestinians outside the Israeli border?

Unfortunately far right extremism is on the rise in Israel itself

"Israeli journalist Gideon Levy was very nearly lynched" after writing an article critical of the Israeli military. He has received death threats. And he is far from alone.

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