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AIBU to think that GB are hypocrites re gay rights in Russia

(28 Posts)
Joysmum Mon 10-Feb-14 21:41:04

Given that it was only just over 10 years ago that we still had clause 28! confused

Sadoldbag Mon 10-Feb-14 21:44:21

You are wrong op

We don't have it now

Gay people are allowed to adopt granted NI had to be kicked into touch

And the hunting to gays for fun is not condoned by the police

Just because we used to be backwards like them we should be proud we have seen the light

muffinino82 Mon 10-Feb-14 21:45:39

YABU, we have made huge steps towards equality whereas Russia appear to be moving backwards (disclaimer: I know that inequality and discrimination still exists towards many people but the UK government does not openly advocate and encourage discrimination against homosexual people)

LovelyMarchHare Mon 10-Feb-14 21:48:47

I said the same the other day OP. I agree the UK has come an awful long way over the last 20 years but you only have to look at the Daily Mail comments anytime gay adoption or civil partnerships are mentioned to know that an awful lot of people hold these views here.

Happily the state isn't sending people to prison for it (anymore)

LucyBabs Mon 10-Feb-14 21:52:49

Disclaimer: I may sound dumb!
Is clause 28 homosexuality being illegal?

fideline Mon 10-Feb-14 21:55:40

YANBU.

I thought the same, OP. Definitely not enough time elapsed to justify such a superior attitude. Maybe it is something like the 'zeal of the convert', only on a bigger scale.

YANBU, I don't believe we should be so sanctimonious.

Pigletin Mon 10-Feb-14 22:06:04

What is clause 28?

LovelyMarchHare Mon 10-Feb-14 22:12:31

Clause 28 was introduced by Thatcher and prevented schools from 'promoting' homosexuality as normal or that it was compatible with the notion of a proper family. It was small minded bigotry of the worst kind and caused justified anger amongst the LGBT community and any right minded people

dancingwithmyselfandthecat Mon 10-Feb-14 22:35:03

Do you understand what is going on in Russia right now? Do you appreciate the fact that many gay people live in fear of their lives? Do you see that the laws they have passed go very far beyond section 28 abolished a decade ago?

fideline Mon 10-Feb-14 22:45:45

Of course dancing the events and atmosphere in Russia are much more serious. However there is something smug about the tone of British commentary that seems a bit hypocritical when clause 28 is still recent history.

And the thing Putin said about "leaving our children alone", the implied conflation of homosexuality with paedophilia, the way in which young people feel they can't be open about themselves... echoes, no?

mistermakersgloopyglue Mon 10-Feb-14 23:20:06

I think the UK has come a massively long way in the last 10 years or so when it comes to gay rights etc. I remember the daily mail's little cut out and send to your mp slip about not abolishing clause 28 hmm

Yes the daily mail has posted some pretty hateful shite (jan moir you twat) but people have been so much more vocal about condeming that sort of stuff now. We are so far ahead of russia in that respect and in light of the recent gay marriage laws I think that yes we can look to them and say 'you backward homophobic policies are bullshit'.

I think framing it as 'us' and 'them' is tricky. There are people in Russia who are both gay and patriotic, despite knowing their country is treating them appallingly. Same in many other parts of the world.

Russia's government are a bunch of homophobic wankers; quite a few individuals are also homophobic, violent wankers. Our government maintains better gay rights. We once had section 28, etc.

I don't see how individuals who campaigned against section 28, as many did, are hypocrites, and if others thought it was right at the time and changed their minds, that is good, not hypocritical.

Stockhausen Mon 10-Feb-14 23:40:21

Yabu.

I also think over the past generation, we've come so far... I grew up with a vaguely homophobic father, but my son is five, and accepts so much without question, be it two men kissing on hollyoaks, or different cultures in school.

Stockhausen Mon 10-Feb-14 23:42:14

I was too young to campaign against it, but it was known to us due to the stagecoach bus nutters moguls who ploughed money into a yes campaign sad

salsmum Mon 10-Feb-14 23:48:53

I have male gay friends and work as a carer(am a straight female)....I am not being hunted down and put up on the internet as public shaming/intimidation because I work around vulnerable people. I have also been to pride with my friends and 2 of my SIL DD are gay. IF I was that brave teacher in Russia my career and life would be in ruins because there I would be idiots wanting to batter or maim me because I'd be 'guilty by association' although GB are not 'perfect' we are far,far removed from Russia where even the police and courts turn a blind eye....It made very uncomfortable viewing, esp when I saw 13 wild 'animals' humiliating/hurting that poor man in the room..lead by that evil b***h who was goading them all on shock I know that the outcome would have been 10 times worse if the cameras were not there sad.

fideline Mon 10-Feb-14 23:56:21

I don't think the OP was in anyway minimising the horrendous Anti-gay laws and homophobic crime in Russia confused

I read it that she was just [shocked] at the rapid volte face of the British Tory government

prh47bridge Tue 11-Feb-14 00:16:57

Whilst I think both were wrong, there is a clear difference between Section 28 and the laws in Russia. Section 28 prevented LAs promoting homosexuality. The Russian laws prevent anyone promoting homosexuality to minors. So in the UK it was never illegal for gay groups to promote homosexuality but this is illegal in Russia. The Russian law is much more far reaching than Section 28 was.

Section 28 was always controversial even within the Conservative party. It is debatable whether it ever had majority support in the UK. And of course people are allowed to change their minds.

It would perhaps be hypocritical to support Section 28 but oppose Russia's laws but I see nothing hypocritical in being against both, even if the individual concerned was once a supporter of Section 28.

I was born in Russia, raised half of the time in Russia (the rest in Georgia) and moved away four and a hakf years back, from near Sochi in fact, and I find it annoying but understandable too.

Also, from what I remember, there wasn't as much of an uproar about a lot of horrible cases and ideas within Chinese society for the Beijing Olympics, but if I missed that, then sorry confused

I think Britain has come far since 28- and Sec 28 wasn't to the same extent as Russia either- but I think it is also wrong to be proud personally being less homophobic as a society, because that in itself isn't under your direct control, just like I can't control whether or not my ex Russian neighbours are homophobic or not.

LittleBabyPigsus Tue 11-Feb-14 04:41:49

Some of the best pro speeches during the marriage equality debate came from Tory MPs. There have been gay and gay-friendly Tory MPs for years. I am far from a Tory myself, but I cannot fault the current government on gay rights.

LittleBabyPigsus Tue 11-Feb-14 04:43:14

Ninja I do remember a lot of controversy about human rights in China before and during the Beijing Olympics. I think people care more about the Olympics now after 2012 though.

Joysmum Tue 11-Feb-14 07:27:34

Of course I understand how serious things are in Russia and I'm certainly not trying to belittle that, but it was only 11 years ago we had a law banning the promotion of homosexuality and repealing that law took a long fight against the conservatives and House of Lords. Of course section 28 wasn't enforced brutally, but we are rewriting our own history and conveniently forgetting about it.

It just goes to show how we gloss over our own unsavory history when people in my country have forgotten so soon how anti gay attitudes were enshrined in law only 11 years ago.

LittleBabyPigsus Tue 11-Feb-14 08:54:05

But Joysmum surely it's also important to recognise how things have changed here? As I said upthread, some of the best speeches in support of marriage equality during the Commons debate came from Tory MPs, and not just gay ones. I don't see any rewriting of history, people are still very aware of Section 28 - it came up a lot when Thatcher died. But it's not relevant to the discussion about Russia because that's talking about things happening NOW. I think to compare a law that nobody was prosecuted under and has been non-existant for over a decade to people being rounded up and tortured is a bit insensitive and a bit silly. And I am speaking as a queer person who was affected by Section 28.

Callani Tue 11-Feb-14 09:14:43

Personally I think it's important to say that we don't condone what the Russian government & institutions are doing - that POLICE threatening to castrate gay men is not acceptable, that POLICE gang raping gay women to "turn them straight" is not acceptable, that government officials encouraging the public to hunt down gay people "to teach them a lesson" is not acceptable.

I also don't see why historic wrongs should mean we can't see the error of our ways and try to change the world for the better.

Sorry then LittleBaby I really don't remember it then blush

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