To think that you don't not pass a new law just because it would be difficult to enforce?

(51 Posts)
Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 13:47:19

Sorry if this has been done, related to smoking with children in the car.

A lot of debate around this at the moment. I'm hearing a lot that there'd be no point in making it illegal as it would be difficult to police.

Surely that's not the point? And something I've never understood.

If something is against the law then at least someone can be pulled over if seen smoking, fined or whatever. It will become much more frowned upon and rightly so.

I remember being choked in the car with my dad smoking, still makes me sick thinking about it. Wish it had been against the law then.

bodygoingsouth Mon 10-Feb-14 13:50:34

yes agree op I too remember a vile journey to London from
the midlands with my parents and gran all smoking.

used to hate it on buses and in cinemas too.

guess people said wearing seatbelt was unenforceable but the law changes behaviour and that's what's needed.

Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 13:57:57

I'd actually go a step further and ban smoking around children altogether, even I'm homes.

Sure there's lots of things we do that are bad for us, and I'm not hysterical about adults smoking if they choose, I smoked in my early twenties, but smoking around children who have no choice is just one of those things that I find utterly gross and unnecessary.

squeakytoy Mon 10-Feb-14 14:09:18

How would you enforce it though? It would just end up costing the tax payer a fortune and take away money that is needed for other use.

Sadoldbag Mon 10-Feb-14 14:09:26

I think if you smoke in the care with your child especially a baby your a rat bag simples

Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 14:11:56

Probably being thick but why would it cost the taxpayer money?

It would be enforced the same as driving using a mobile phone, if you're seen you're stopped and fined.

I'd also hope that making it illegal might make people think twice.

PandaFeet Mon 10-Feb-14 14:13:55

I think that its a dangerous move. To start dictating what people can and can't do in their own personal space is wrong, and where will it stop?

Any parent who smokes in their car with kids present is irresponsible, but this law won't stop some parents from being irresponsible.

I support banning smoking in cars. It's just as much of a distraction as using a phone, children or not.

But how the hell would you police smoking in the home? You're on very Orwellian ground when you start banning a legal product in people's homes.

CrohnicallyFarting Mon 10-Feb-14 14:17:13

panda but we already have some laws that dictate what you can and can't do in your own personal space because it infringes on someone else- such as not leaving small children alone in the house when it puts them at risk.

Enb76 Mon 10-Feb-14 14:17:28

It's a bad law if it cannot be enforced as it makes criminals out of people who are otherwise law-abiding making it easier for them to commit more illegal behaviour on the basis of "well, who's going to catch me". They know they're not going to get caught so they carry on. If there is a possibility of being caught then, the behaviour you are trying to target decreases.

You see it with mobile phone use in cars. For the first couple of months after the introduction of the new law, I saw virtually no-one on a mobile phone in a car, now I see it all the time. People know they won't get caught so why not do it. It is a pointless law as it doesn't stop those who habitually use their phones in their cars and it makes people who wouldn't ordinarily think "WTF, everyone else does it so it's not going to matter if I do".

Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 14:20:25

Then surely the same wpuld apply to speeding

Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 14:21:28

Posted too soon, surely the same applies to speeding, you only get caught if you're seen, I see people speeding all the time.

Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 14:23:27

I think it can be enforced as much as a lot of other crimes, people get away with things all the time, speeding, drugs, shoplifting, fly tipping.

scaevola Mon 10-Feb-14 14:25:22

An unenforceable law would be a bad law.

But I don't see this as unenforceable. Just like using mobiles when driving, or not wearing your seatbelt, if you're seen you get done.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Mon 10-Feb-14 14:26:28

I do think pragmatically you can't have a law that cannot be enforced and this would be tricky. Anyone who is very distracted by smoking while driving would already be committing an offence (ie careless driving). So the offence here is not to ban smoking and driving but to ban smoking in a car whether or not you're driving but only if there is also a child in the car. It would be really difficult to to draft and enforce in my view.

Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 14:26:35

Personally I wouldn't use my phone in the car, obviously I'm aware that it's potentially dangerous, but might I chance it for a quick call if I'm running late. No because I wouldn't risk the fine and the humiliation of bring pulled over. So laws do work I think.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Mon 10-Feb-14 14:30:18

Of course laws do have deterrent effect and there could be a benefit from this even if not readily enforceable.

squeakytoy Mon 10-Feb-14 14:30:51

Taxes pay for the police, courts, councils.. So of course we would pay.

PandaFeet Mon 10-Feb-14 14:30:54

but we already have some laws that dictate what you can and can't do in your own personal space because it infringes on someone else- such as not leaving small children alone in the house when it puts them at risk.

There is no actual minimum age of when a child can be left alone though. If a 4 year old was left in their house and someone called the police, they could be charged with neglect, but not specifically for leaving them. For older children, its at SS discretion based on the parents view of how responsible their child is.

There are very very few laws which cover things happening in personal space. That's for a reason. We are not a nanny state, nor should we strive to become one.

jacks365 Mon 10-Feb-14 14:32:33

The mobile ban hasn't worked it is very common to see drivers on the phone and if we can't manage that one properly then we have no chance with a cigarette ban, it's easier to prove a mobile was used than that a cigarette someone dropped was smoked while driving.

PandaFeet Mon 10-Feb-14 14:37:33

What they need to do is ban cigarettes. If they are worried about the devastating effects of smoking then ban the root cause.

But my guess is, the govt would lose too much tax revenue, so they won't do that. They will just cause innocent people more inconvenience.

Car smells of smoke? Kids in the car? Yeah, I smoked in the car before I pickd them up officer. So unless an officer actually SEEs you smoking, how can you be charged?

Bourdic Mon 10-Feb-14 14:38:58

I remember 23 years ago when the law was changed to make raping your wife illegal - I also remember --utterly stupid Conservative--MPs sneering about ' a camera in every marital bedroom' . What a ridiculous idea about laws and personal space - I killed you in my own house so don't tell me what I can and can't do in my personal space!!

PandaFeet Mon 10-Feb-14 14:42:37

Murder is a crime. No matter where it happens.

Rape is a crime. No matter where it happens.

Smoking cigarettes is NOT a crime.

Davsmum Mon 10-Feb-14 14:46:32

I can't see it working unless they make smoking illegal.

Like Jacs365 said - banning the use of mobiles whilst driving has not stopped people doing that.

Personally - I think using a mobile when driving is far more dangerous that smoking in the car - with or without children.

Dollslikeyouandme Mon 10-Feb-14 16:33:10

But laws don't stop people doing all types of crimes, people still murder, steal, rape, vandalise, every single day. Does that mean they should all be legal because the law doesn't stop people doing it?

No of course not, because most people don't do these things because they have a conscience, they know it's wrong, we need laws for the people who won't do the right thing by themselves.

No cigarettes aren't illegal, but it's illegal to smoke in public places, it's illegal to smoke in work vehicles, so why not in cars with children?

So the mobile phone law doesn't stop some people doing it anyway, does that mean we should make it legal?

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