to think that if you can't spare the staff to clean up a soiled child you can't spare them to supervise one who is sent out of class?

(123 Posts)
Kyrptonite Tue 05-Nov-13 23:17:43

DS is 4, fairly bright, can be a handful (was referred to CAMHS for suspected ADHD, they wouldn't follow it up) and has toileting issues. He will soil his pants pretty much every day (doctor thinks he has encopresis, finally have a hospital appointment tomorrow).

Before he started school I went in and had a chat with his teacher and the head about the behavioural issues and the soiling. They assured me that there would only be a problem if he was having multiple accidents a day which is perfectly reasonable.

The first 4 weeks he came out of school 3 times absolutely caked in poo. He stunk. The next time it happened the TA came out with him at home time waving his bag of soiled clothing in front of her and said in front of DS that they could smell him this time so changed him. I emailed the school and asked if they could perhaps put his clothes in his PE bag so it was slightly less obvious and embarrassing. Cue meeting with arsey head who said they didn't have to change him and it was only because the TA was available that they could. I explained his medical condition, asked me to bring in some info on it (couldn't she have googled?!) and she said she hadn't heard of it and could I put DS in pull ups.

I refused the pull up idea as his accidents at school are very infrequent (he seems to save that for when he is at home) and I was worried that the other children might see him in pull ups when getting changed for PE and tease him. The head teacher said that they didn't have the staff available to change him and that 4/5 year old children wouldn't notice a child in a nappy!

DS's teacher took DP aside before half term and basically said that DS's behaviour stood out a mile from the rest of the class. DP explained again that the Dr had also had concerns and could the school involve the SENCO. We went to an open afternoon at the school and it seemed as though the headteacher kept looking at DS, waiting for him to do something and tell him off. I thought I was imagining this but DP saw it too and he isn't the most observant!

DS keeps saying he's been sent out of his classroom or excluded from activities. I ask him why and he can't tell me. He genuinely can't seem to understand what he has done wrong or he just can't remember. I'm slightly confused as to who is supervising him when he's been sent out. surely the school don't just leave a 4 year old outside a room on their own? Especially one who has been a PITA and could do anything left to their own devices.

I'm also baffled as to how, if DS isn't being left alone, they have the staff to supervise him but not change him when he's had an accident that is not through any fault of his own.

Also, surely sending a child out doesn't actually help unless they understand what they have done. Should they not be trying to support him to behave how they want him to?

I am well aware that he is no angel. I'm just confused as to whether this is normal for reception or if I need to speak to the teacher.

friday16 Wed 06-Nov-13 09:06:33

I think I'm bloody annoyed because we chose this school based on it being small

Small schools have fewer supernumary staff, fewer resources and are less likely to have fully trained support staff. I know it's an orthodoxy that small schools are "caring" and "friendly" while larger schools are "faceless", but larger schools are also far more likely to have the resources to deal with issues, for there to be multiple children affected and therefore both less incentive to brush it under the carpet, and more chance of having a spare member of staff to deal with things. Children won't be in mixed-age groups, so reception teachers will specialise in reception, there will be at the very least a supernumary head and various of the specialists (the SENCO, in particularly) will often be only part-time classroom teachers so will have dedicated time available for their other role.

There was a thread on Primary a few weeks ago about some horror show of a naice village school completely failing at inclusion, and the conclusion I took from it was to be grateful that my children's primary was a three form intake with over six hundred children.

yonisareforever Wed 06-Nov-13 09:50:01

Sorry if I have missed this from your OP but it seems you are going through the head rather than talking to the actual teacher and TA about how to handle it.

I would try approaching them, and explaining, as them hearing it from a head who isnt sympathetic may not explain to them whats going on so well.

OddBoots Wed 06-Nov-13 09:55:58

I'm not excusing the school as they need to arrange a plan to deal with his needs but on a practical level it is policy in some/many schools that for intimate care needs there needs to be two adults in order to protect the child from a abuse and the staff from accusations of abuse. For one-to-one supervision then only one member of staff is needed. Sadly in small schools it is a real struggle to have two available spare members of staff to change a child.

Lamu Wed 06-Nov-13 10:20:42

I remember your other thread. I can't believe you're still having to push for the school to support your Ds. It doesn't wash with me that a small school= limited resources therefore unable to meet his needs. It doesn't seem they are taking this seriously.

Are you able to get your GP to write to the school outlining his condition? It might carry more weight iyswim. I have no direct experience of a situation like this but I'd be asking myself if this particular school is right place for my child.

MILLYMOLLYMANDYMAX Wed 06-Nov-13 12:31:42

I actually think you should remove him from the school and home ed for a while if you are in a position to do so or at the very least change schools. We had a situation with ds who despite being a well behaved little boy in reception. He had no toileting issues. He started in year 1, which had been taken over by a new teacher, who sent him out of the classroom at every opportunity.
When I found out from one of his fellow classmates I saw the head immediately. The teacher was removed immediately and never returned. Remember whilst he is out of the classroom he is not in the classroom learning. We are still picking up the pieces from those 5 months of no schooling.

I was lucky that the head knew me and my son. If the head is looking for any infringement and his teacher is sending him out of the room without him knowing what he has done wrong, then he is being set up to fail. The pressure he must be under must be terrible. I really feel for him

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 14:11:47

Back from the hospital. DS is going to be on a minimum of 2 sachets of movicol a day possibly going up to as many as 12 (according to consultant) until the impaction in his bowels has gone.

There's no way I can even ask the school to deal with this is there? I don't know whether to take him in tomorrow and explain the situation and say I'm more than happy to pick him up if its leaking out of him or just keep him off until it's sorted. The dr said it could take as long as he's had the issue to resolve which is about a year. I'm only on mat leave until June. I can't physically afford to home ed him for that length of time.

If I remove him from school his behavior (which worsened considerably after starting) may become extremely worse when he eventually goes back into the school environment.

I really don't know what to do

MotherofBear Wed 06-Nov-13 14:22:45

I would speak to his teacher and discuss it with him/her, see what they think is best. They surely must have something in place to help children who have additional needs of one sort or another.

I just want to give your DS a massive hug, poor kid. It can't be nice being sent out of the classroom without understanding why. And the poor boy can't help the toilet issue, bless him.

I'm glad you've managed to get help with his problem, I really hope you get things sorted with the school now.

WooWooOwl Wed 06-Nov-13 14:23:24

If you're on mat leave I'd keep sending him to school, but know that you are on call to go in and clean him up any time it's needed. It sounds like he needs his reception year and removing him entirely should be a last resort. You are still entitled to have him part time if you want to though, which might be worth discussing with the school.

Hopefully though the accidents at school will remain infrequent, and you won't need to go in often.

FeisMom Wed 06-Nov-13 14:30:35

Kryptonite it might be worth reporting your thread and having it moved to the SN section, where you will get great advice from experienced parents who have all been through similar before

mumofweeboys Wed 06-Nov-13 14:35:02

I would go and ask for a meeting with head, senco teacher ASAP. They need to have all the information so up you can make an informed choice together. Has the school given you an iep? My ds1 just started school and teacher notice in the first week his concentration issues (had autistic assessment when younger and was cleared), she wrote a plan for him.

My school have been brilliant but they are used to dealing with additional needs kids. It might be worth looking at other schools that have better provision for him if your not getting the help you both need.

Also might be worth posting on the sn board.

YouTheCat Wed 06-Nov-13 14:42:26

Our school wouldn't bat an eyelid at the soiling issues.

Is changing school an option? It doesn't sound like your ds will get the support he needs where he is.

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 16:30:42

It is an option but I'm wary of unsettling him and it happening again.

ILoveAFullFridge Wed 06-Nov-13 17:27:32

The fact that his behaviour deteriorated when he started Reception does not mean that it will be worse if he takes a break and then returns to school. He might not have been ready for school, and a break may help him.

My instinct would be to reduce his hours, so that he is under less stress at school. Maybe mornings only, and see whether he will take a nap in the afternoon, or some afternoons. (Not a ridiculous suggestion, BTW. An afternoon nap used to be standard in Reception.)

Definitely insist on a meeting with Head, SENCO and class teacher to discuss your ds's needs and how they are going to support him. Even if you decide to take him out completely for a while, you should have this meeting in preparation for his return.

Post on the SN board for advice on what you can do and what you can expect fr

I work as a TA in Early Years. Our school requires that 2 members of staff are present when cleaning up a child who had soiled themselves (poo) for safeguarding of both the child and the staff member.

We need documentation on any medical conditions (not allowed to google, we need specific info from the doc or other professionals involved)

I think you might be better asking to meet with the class teacher to discuss this out of school hours to see how they can work with you.

teacherandguideleader Wed 06-Nov-13 19:01:00

I'm in secondary so I know it is different but neither me nor any of my TAs would be allowed to change a child who had soiled themselves. I believe they have to be specially trained in personal care. This could explain why there was no one to clean your son but there was someone to stand with a child outside of class. If they don't need special training then they would often require two members of staff.

MrsLouisTheroux Wed 06-Nov-13 19:35:14

Your son needs more support than a normal run of the mill primary school teachers TA offer. He needs to be assessed and have SEN/ care plan put in place.
He obviously needs support but teachers/ TAs don't and can't clean up children who have accidents. Parents are usually phoned and asked to come and deal with it.

greenfolder Wed 06-Nov-13 19:42:49

I would seriously go and visit any other schools that are feasible. Find one that has procedures already in place and a decent senco that knows what they are doing.

sublimelime Wed 06-Nov-13 19:52:14

MrsLoiusTheroux You are wrong. TAs and teachers can, as in they are allowed to clean up soiled children, legally. Teachers cannot be expected to. TAs can be expected to if it is within their job description. All schools have a Duty of Care to children which includes not leaving them in soiled clothing. Schools should also have a continence policy.

mrsjay Wed 06-Nov-13 19:56:27

HI i think you need to make an appointment with the school and the Sen department for a care plan for your son asap especially if he is going to be on a lot of movicol inci wouldnt send him to school if you have to increase the movicol up to 12 sachets which he will just poo non stop , also phone up your local authority and ask to speak to somebody who deals with children with special needs (they are called different for different areas) your son wont be sent out alone and I think if he is distrupting the class then perhaps him going out is the best for him and the whole class, I hope it works out for you but i do think you need to go higher especially if he might have sen of any kind

WooWooOwl Wed 06-Nov-13 19:57:09

It sounds like the bigger problem is the behaviour from what OP has said. She says the toileting accidents are infrequent at school now, although I realise that movicol might change that.

mrsjay Wed 06-Nov-13 20:14:14

yes I did mean get a care plan for al his needs maybe not how it came across , his needs are not being met really are they which is such a shame he is only 4,

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 20:21:18

Thank you.
I've sent an email to the school outlining the pooing issue and including his consultants phone number. I've also mentioned that I would be interested in knowing their behaviour strategies for DS as he claims to be sent out or excluded and that seems to go against the ethos of the EYFS. I did say I realise 4 year olds have a loose grasp of the truth
I put in the email that I was aware that schools can apply for two terms of support without a statement and asked if they were willing to do this or if I would need to find a school that meets DS's needs.

I know email isn't ideal but they are so rushed in the mornings and we aren't supposed to walk the kids to their classrooms but leave them at the school door so I rarely see his teacher. This way it gives them a chance to have a think rather than me charging in there and putting them on the spot!

mrsjay Wed 06-Nov-13 20:27:28

the email is the first step I think it is a better idea like you said the morning isn't the best time hope they get back to you quicker, I never undertsnad the statement needed fo X Y Z in scotland they dont need a statement for extra help at school it is a different system, anyway I am rambling on I hope they get back to you and do take care of the movicol I take it and trying to get it right is a hit and miss

Kyrptonite Wed 06-Nov-13 21:27:54

I'm also going to contact the council tomorrow and speak to someone and I will make a list of potential new schools.

TrumptonVandal Wed 06-Nov-13 21:45:53

Your poor boy. sad And poor you! Am watching this thread with interest as we are going through similar.

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