to totally fail to understand why Sexism is never seen as bad as racism??

(306 Posts)
chemicalsister Sun 27-Oct-13 01:18:16

Following on from the Saudi Olympics thread, I keep getting upset about Sexism thriving in the modern world when racism is quite correctly - seen by the fast majority as clearly wrong and abhorent.
Even educated professionals have wound me up recently asserting we sholud adapt schools, especially first few years of infants , to better suit boys and their poorer attention span,
AND poor boys now do less well at exams at 16 so we must reduce course work etc..
I am old and remember when boys did better than girls at 16-- There was no outrage and plans to change exams then! It was just seen as inevitable ..... Fume!

DontPanicMrMannering Sun 27-Oct-13 09:26:44

Giveit the fact it's insidious and you can't even see it makes them "gentle" , I'll carry that for you, pop the tea on long day at work, I'll drive.

Drip drip drip.

As oppose to the brash and obvious "well women can't do that can they? "

NotYoMomma Sun 27-Oct-13 09:48:15

I agree

and this poor boys at school argument hmm what does it matter when they will still get the better jobs and better wages because they have a penis?

I have had many an argument about driving the car with dh. I pick him up from theoffice and often hewants me to get out thecar and switch places so hecan drive.

er why?! whyyy?!?! fook off.

I think sexism is a HUGE problem (as is racism but it is more and more addressed) whereas men and women have sexism so ingraned theydont notice that they themselves are contributing to the problem every time they utter 'boys will be boys'

Grennie Sun 27-Oct-13 10:05:11

The idea there is a classical feminism Rabbit is rubbish. There are plenty of black female feminist fighting against female oppression and calling themselves feminists. The only difference is the media highlight a certain kind of feminism i.e. the kind that appeals to white men e.g. slut walks, femen, etc.

Female oppression has a much longer history than white supremacy. And as another poster said, racism affects men too, so some men will fight against it.

Also all men benefit from sexism and female oppression. Only white men benefit from racism and white supremacy.

BringBackBod Sun 27-Oct-13 10:24:41

NotYoMamma. Of course it matters. No-one should leave school struggling to read and write.

RabbitFuckerFromAHat Sun 27-Oct-13 10:27:44

Grennie, actually I do agree with you, I have phrased myself clumsily.

Grennie Sun 27-Oct-13 10:30:07

No worries Rabbit.

I just get frustrated sometimes when people think the feminism the media highlight, is the only feminism happening. Then yes, you would think the feminist movement is made up of and concerned only with white middle class women's issues.

The exception of course being the Hijab.

harticus Sun 27-Oct-13 10:34:55

and this poor boys at school argument hmm what does it matter when they will still get the better jobs and better wages because they have a penis?

FFS. Where on earth do some of you people live?

Unemployment amongst young males in this area tops 47%.
They are on the shitheap - along with the young women too. The young women are actually slightly better off in the shitheap of life because of the crappily paid care and cleaning jobs around here that young men are unable to access.

The notion that we can just fuck over the most disenfranchised of society because they happened to be born male and poor is repellent.
Poverty is the enemy of everyone.
Whether they have a penis or a vagina.

Quangle Sun 27-Oct-13 10:35:19

I know where you are coming from OP. The Saudi issue is very pertinant I think. We would have sanctions against countries treating other races in the way the Saudis and others treat women. They would rightly be pariah states. My work involves some interaction with the ME and I'm expected to be pretty cool about, let's say, the Yemen. Likewise it's totally fine for us to talk about negotiating with the Taliban. If this was an apartheid issue, it would not be ok and it would be socially damaging for businesses to be interacting with these regimes.

GiveItYourBestFucker Sun 27-Oct-13 10:35:39

Thanks, dontpanic I see what you mean now.

RabbitFuckerFromAHat Sun 27-Oct-13 10:49:03

I just get frustrated sometimes when people think the feminism the media highlight, is the only feminism happening. Then yes, you would think the feminist movement is made up of and concerned only with white middle class women's issues.

Yes! Thanks Grennie, this is what I meant by being 'put off', which is 'put off' by the discursive representation of feminism rather than the actuality.

Harticus: poverty is everyone's enemy, which is why intersectionality is so important and seeing how these things interact. Like, at a group/class level middle class women have privilege that working class women do not. In practice at individual case levels, that has to be complicated; as a single example a middle-class woman with no access to an income due to financial abuse may have fewer options in leaving an abusive relationship than a working-class woman with an independent income.

WMittens Sun 27-Oct-13 10:50:55

DontPanicMrMannering

I disagree I think a fuckload of men are sexist, ... they do the driving etc

I often offer to drive because I like driving (I drive for fun, nevermind getting from A to B, I'll drive 200 miles from A to A if the roads are interesting) and I don't drink; now I'm sexist because of that?!

GiveItYourBestFucker Sun 27-Oct-13 10:55:33

Depends whether the person in the passenger seat also loves driving but can't get a turn.

I'm afraid I regard the subject of this thread as nothing more as destructive and divisive. We should combat racism and sexism wherever and whenever we see it.

I recently read this article about Oscar Pistorius in the Guardian. Now, the Guardian's Africa coverage is crap. However, I found this article particularly poignant as I have close connections with South Africa, a country that continues to struggle with racism and sexism - the legacy of apartheid and the fact that 50% of all South African women will be raped at least once during the course of their lives.

Oscar Pistorius: The end of the rainbow

and a quote

"These quiet observations are far more telling than the fast cars and the guns. Oscar is no miracle. It is not magic that propels his speed. More likely it is rage; more likely it is memories of humiliation. So, too, with South Africa. We are no miracle. We, too, have had to grind our stumps raw. We, too, have had to bury our shame. And so, when we heard what Oscar had done, we felt something like deja vu. As if we always knew that his story was not quite right."

Grennie Sun 27-Oct-13 11:02:17

Of course we should combat both female oppression/sexism and racism/white supremacy. Nobody is saying anything different. But the OP is simply recognising that overt racism among certain groups is a no no, but overt sexism is fine.

I see awful sexist remarks made routinely on TV. I don't see the same with racist remarks. Of course there is still racism on TV, but there is an acceptance that racism is a bad thing, and so generally the racism is more subtle, I accept there are unfortunately exceptions.

I think there are so many exceptions that it is a really silly comparison to make.

As for the OP itself, all it said was that in the modern world sexism was accepted more than racism and gave a couple of silly examples.

It was, in short, a Really Silly OP.

WMittens Sun 27-Oct-13 11:13:05

GiveItYourBestFucker

Depends whether the person in the passenger seat also loves driving but can't get a turn.

Well they can drive their own car then. What's the issue?

RabbitFuckerFromAHat Sun 27-Oct-13 11:13:09

I think investigating our own existing prejudices and testing our hypotheses about how these things stack up is part of intersectional feminism. So I don't think it's a silly OP, I think it's an investigative one.

RabbitFuckerFromAHat Sun 27-Oct-13 11:15:02

Well they can drive their own car then. What's the issue?

That has to be the most Marie Antoinette-like post I have seen in quite some time. grin

FortyDoorsToNowhere Sun 27-Oct-13 11:16:54

I just don't understand what low level sexism is.

I know that sound naive, but where do you draw a line with a man acting like a gentleman and being sexist.

My DH will open doors for me, carry heavy shopping, always drives, does all the DIY, takes the car for MOT and jobs that traditionally male done.

Grennie Sun 27-Oct-13 11:17:31

Look at couples when you are in the car. Usually, if it is a woman and man sitting in the front seats, the man will be driving. There is a lot of subtle sexism that most people don't even notice.

GatoradeMeBitch Sun 27-Oct-13 11:18:23

I agree that her examples weren't the best, but it's absolutely true that otherwise reasonable people can be very sexist, without any social fear. Racism does still exist, but unless it's overt racists in the company of other racists, they have to censure themselves in society - no-one would stand for it. I saw it a lot in college, women will jump on any possible racist comment, but sit passively and smile when men are sexist, because they know if they objected they would be seen as the sour faced humourless feminist in the corner. Feminism is more offensive in our culture than sexism.

Grennie Sun 27-Oct-13 11:18:38

Forty -Does your DH open doors for men? Is he pleased if a man holds a door open for him?

GiveItYourBestFucker Sun 27-Oct-13 11:20:05

Fortydoors, IMo this depends on whether you would like to do the DIY or be responsible for the car, but defer to a man to do these things for you. When I was married he cooked, I did the car maintenance. It worked for us.

FortyDoorsToNowhere Sun 27-Oct-13 11:20:32

If he sees a man struggling for example if he has a walking aid or in wheel chair.

Grennie Sun 27-Oct-13 11:21:59

Forty - So a man has to be disabled, but not a woman? It is sexist if he is treating women as more in need than men.

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