to think that belgian voluntary enthanasia is murder

(80 Posts)
ReallyTired Thu 03-Oct-13 09:29:53

When you have someone who is terminally ill and in extreme pain then I think there is a case for enthanasia. However I think there is a fine line between helping someone to have a dignified death and helping someone with possilby treatable depression to commit suicide.

This poor transexual was allowed enthanasia because of a botched sex change operation. I feel that he/she should have had treatment for depression/ councelling rather than being helped to commit suicide. I imagine that the fact that Nathan Verhelst was rejected by his parents for being born a girl had caused him untold pychological issues.

Prehaps Nathan Verhelst was poorly supported through his sex change operation and its tragic that he never found happiness. I hope that he rests in peace and I feel its sad that he was not helped to find peace in this world.

kali110 Thu 03-Oct-13 11:10:49

Yabu its not murder.
Depression can be as painfull and debilitating as a terminal illness such as cancer.
Its sad this guy felt there was no way out, but if there was no way to fix the botch up then no wonder he thought this was the only way out.feel so bad.

I think this is a little more disturbing
"Voluntary euthanasia for those over 18 is relatively uncontroversial in Belgium. Parliament is now considering expanding the law to under 18s as well."
"Patients must be capable of deciding for themselves."

How can anyone of this age know enough to be capable of a decision like this ?

ReallyTired Thu 03-Oct-13 12:04:47

"Voluntary euthanasia for those over 18 is relatively uncontroversial in Belgium. Parliament is now considering expanding the law to under 18s as well."
"Patients must be capable of deciding for themselves."

How can anyone of this age know enough to be capable of a decision like this ?

Exactly! The parents will decide and if the children are in care then the state will decide. I fear that severely disabled children will be enthanised.

PresidentServalan Thu 03-Oct-13 12:26:36

I think that the fact you can opt for assisted suicide in some countries is a mercy - no matter how much money you throw at it, you cannot stop people thinking that they cannot live their lives any longer for whatever reason.

PeppiNephrine Thu 03-Oct-13 12:31:51

Should he have shot himself or poisoned himself in a lonely hotel room or jumped off a bridge just to make YOU feel more comfortable?
Its some height of arrogance to insist people keep living a life they can't stand just so your cosy view of things isn't disturbed.

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 03-Oct-13 14:13:42

YANBU but this is the danger of legalised euthanasia. It starts with those who are terminally ill, develops to include those who are suicidal and the risk is that it doesn't stop there.

thebody Thu 03-Oct-13 14:21:23

depression isn't just being a bit sad.

severe depression is as crippling as widespread cancer.

poor man. I hope he is at peace now.

ReallyTired Thu 03-Oct-13 14:58:50

"depression isn't just being a bit sad.

severe depression is as crippling as widespread cancer"

Depression attacks the soul in a way that no other condition does. The person loses the ablity to think. This is why people with severe depression who refuse help are sectioned, but people with cancer are allowed to refuse treatment.

Surely both conditions should be treated rather than killing the victim. Depression is treatable and the symptoms of terminal cancer can be relieved in a lot of cases with strong pain killers like heroin or cancer.

I think the difference between terminal cancer is that death is inniment anyway. The person 's life is not being significantly shortened.

ScoobyWho Thu 03-Oct-13 15:03:09

You're not killing the victim, you're allowing them to make a choice to end their own life. You mightn't believe it's the right choice but to be fair thats not really the issue.

Madeleine10 Thu 03-Oct-13 15:49:16

"Voluntary euthanasia for those over 18 is relatively uncontroversial in Belgium. Parliament is now considering expanding the law to under 18s as well."

This is seriously frightening, I agree HaveToWearHeeals.
This is exactly the sort of mission creep that so many people against euthanasia fear, and that so many supporters have said could never happen for X,Y,Z reasons - and yet here it is under consideration in Belgium.

The fact that it could apply minors is dreadful, but it is a genuine concern for all vulnerable groups.

I'm sympathetic, however, to the principle of end of life/terminal illness assistance.

thoroughlymodernmillie Thu 03-Oct-13 16:46:50

To have a terminal illness, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. No cure. I don't know much about mental illness to be honest but are we saying that for some there is no cure and they should be allowed to choose to die.
A close family member committed suicide a couple of years ago. All I can think is that they must have been in the depths of despair. However it was a permanent solution for a temporary problem which they may have recovered from.

expatinscotland Thu 03-Oct-13 17:08:58

Depression is treatable and the symptoms of terminal cancer can be relieved in a lot of cases with strong pain killers like heroin or cancer.

Sometimes it most certainly is not and often enough, those who present with depression have also another mental illness for which there really is no treatment.

Similarly, it is BS that all those with terminal cancer can die pain free. I've known and heard of those who did not. There was nothing that could alleviate their pain and tbh, why on Earth should they be subjected to your idea of what is quality of life? It is their body and their life.

They should be allowed to end that with dignity and loved one around, not jumping off a bridge like Tony Scott.

samu2 Thu 03-Oct-13 17:09:38

Actually, depression isn't always treatable ReallyTired

My husband has bi-polar, he is pretty much always depressed. All the meds and therapy in the world hasn't cured him or even controlled it enough for him to lead a 'normal' life. And he has been trying for 18 years.

If someone doesn't want to live their life that way then I don't blame them, I also don't blame them for wanting to do it a more dignified manner and I think everyone should have that right to do so.

expatinscotland Thu 03-Oct-13 17:10:45

'are we saying that for some there is no cure and they should be allowed to choose to die.'

There is no cure for many mental illness. And many do in fact chose suicide.

expatinscotland Thu 03-Oct-13 17:12:38

Love this romantic ideal that people who are terminally ill with cancer all die swiftly, unconscious, pain-free. That is a load of crap. I know people whose loved one, whose children have woken suddenly on heavy painkillers with wild fear in their eyes, unable to speak and then die.

SecretWitch Thu 03-Oct-13 17:16:23

If my physical or emotional pain were so great that I wished to die, I would want to go to a country that allows me to do so with dignity and compassion.

mrsjay Thu 03-Oct-13 17:23:28

So would I secretwitch

expatinscotland Thu 03-Oct-13 17:25:37

Same here, Secret. My decision, no more comfortable with my right to die being dictated than I am with reproductive rights being dictated.

mrsjay Thu 03-Oct-13 17:25:51

people are becoming a little hysterical nobody is going to kill disabled child, and you can withold treatment now from a severely ill/disabled child so it can go on without any legislation they just let nature take its course,

stringornothing Thu 03-Oct-13 17:34:12

Many many people who are prevented from committing suicide do recover and go on to be grateful for being saved though. Presumably most of them thought there was no hope at the time. I'm very wary of the idea that their decisions should be respected.

But assuming that this tragic person's condition was incurable, which is the official medical stance, should the parents be tried for manslaughter?

stringornothing Thu 03-Oct-13 17:45:53

This is a really fascinating article which explains why I'm very wary of official sanction of suicide for depression. But NB that it does not argue that suicide is never a legitimate response, only that the bar should be set very high.

cavell Thu 03-Oct-13 18:42:01

I'm glad for this man that he was able to end his life at a time of his choosing and in a peaceful, pain-free manner.

Of course it would be better that no-one was ever in a position where death seemed the preferable option to a continued life of suffering - whether psychological or physical. But, sadly, people do find themselves in such positions. And there isn't always a solution or an answer to bring an end to their suffering.

quoteunquote Thu 03-Oct-13 18:56:25

You only get one life, what you do with it is entirely up to you, as long as you do no harm to anyone or anything it is nobody business what you actually do.

The only shameful thing in this is our failure as the human race not to meet everyones needs.

You cannot take decisions from people, that would be stealing, they belong to each individual, every person is entitled to their choices.

CaptainPoop Thu 03-Oct-13 19:36:02

As someone who has attempted suicide 8 times (probably only 3 were serious, the other times i didn't want to die, I just didn't know how else to make the pain stop) using multiple methods I can say to all the posters who believe it is a preferable alternative to euthanasia, that it is the most painful, undignified and traumatic experience.

People will never see euthanasia as an option if they are not willing, begging, to die to begin with. It's not an 'easy' option, EVER. Only the most desperate of souls look to death to ease their suffering.

Loopytiles Thu 03-Oct-13 19:59:06

yabvu to suggest that doctors and nurses would find euthanasia easier than caring for people until "natural" death.

And "slippery slope" / could make murder easier arguments are often used by people against any euthanasia to try to disuade people on the fence. Scaremongering. Checks can be put in place.

Even good palliative care (not always available) can't always make people comfortable. Motor neurone disease, for example.

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