to think if the Jewish Council and the FA are upset by Spurs fans yelling "yid army"(310 Posts)
Then Cameron should back off- He says it's not being used as a hate word and the fans claim they are reclaiming it.
The FA and the Jewish council of Deputies think it's offensive.
Of course, Cameron comes from that privileged class who rarely get called offensive terms (apart from references to Eton)
Russians how can I be ignorant when I was present at the matches during that period. Surely you are the ignorant one as your Imagined fears actually meant you never stepped foot in the grounds!
It doesn't make a bit of difference whether someone says "filthy Jew" or "filthy Yid". Both are equally offensive. So shall we ban the word Jew? But it's not the Jew bit or the Yid bit that is the problem!
My parents and all my ancestors could proudly say "Ich bin a Yid". Why should I allow some racist twats to take that part of my heritage away from me?
Ich bin a Yid!
Full fridge, I don't get that. In what way isit turning my back on my heritage to say I am uncomfortable with people - shouting yid?
Goldenbear Sorry but it's not 'bollox' (sic) at all. The fact that you might be ignorant (perhaps because of your comfortable 'MC' (sic) upbringing doesn't negate the truth or my personal experience.
No, I think we covered male genitalia when I mentioned the chant about foreskins!
Cameron is talking out of his shit hole as usual. I fully believe he is trying to be seen as 'one of the lads' on this one.
As DH pointed out, the Tottenham fans may think they are 'reclaiming' the word, but all it does is encourage rival club fans to call them disparaging names, often 'dirty Yid', 'Yid scum' etc. They are making things worse by using the term to refer to themselves.
I think Cameron's point was purely a technical one - that it is not currently illegal to use an offensive word to describe yourself. And I don't see we can reasonably ban people from doing so.
We can discourage it. And if it 'legitimises' some horrible hate chants from others (as Baddiel argues), I think we should discourage it.
Should we ban black musicians from using the N-word? Should we ban 'Four Poofs And A Piano' from self-identifying with that name? Plainly not.
Whether non-Jewish Spurs fans (and most are not Jewish) should be allowed to use the word is a trickier question. This ultimately hinges on whether it cause offence, which depends on people making complaints and the merits of those complaints being considered. That sounds like a better plan to me than simply going along with whatever those cretins at the FA happen to think.
sorry I just realised it sounds worse than it is!
Not a look everyone can pull off. Rather Max Wall-esque
I'm having nightmares about AVB in his skinny tracksuit. Link please Olgaga.
Russians, sorry but that is complete bollox. I grew up in South London in a very middle class family, my Dad was an Economist, he wouldn't have exposed us, his children to a 'dodgy' environment. When my brother insisted at 15 on going with his 'mates' to the matches he wanted to go to a particularly stand that my parents were not keen on because of the 'dodgy' element but it was a minority and totally avoidable by sitting in a different stand!
Most Jewish people DO have a strong visceral reaction to the word.
You’ve been counting?
Anyway, when you start reclaiming a word it’s a fair bet that many (often most) of the people it might apply to will have a strong visceral reaction to the word. That’s how reclamation works – a few of those people start using it for their own purposes, and it grows from there.
I grew up in South London. I would not have attended Charlton matches (especially against fellow London opposition) in the 80s. Too dodgy.
My experience of going the WHL since the 80s is that things on the hissing front are about the same. The Bosnich incident occurred in 1995 or possibly 1996. That wouldn't happen today, I think. I might be wrong. The De Canio thing (which wasn't aimed at us of course) is more recent - but still some time ago (the years concertina when you're my age. 1995 seems like yesterday, it really does). So, there might have been some progress but not much. It therefore seems rather foolish to demand the banning of effective (because it works - it drowns out the other stuff because of sheer volume of numbers) peaceful protest against clear racism and make no attempt to deal with the actual racism first.
There is no doubt at all that this issue is being stirred up by people who don't like Spurs for reasons entirely unconnected with a concern about in-ground racism. If prominent Jewish spurs supporters had come out in support of Baddiel that would be different. They have not done so.
"Most Jewish people DO have a strong visceral reaction to the word. Maybe not most Jewish spurs fans but most others do. Even discussing the word is hard for some of us, it is that nasty a word"
I think that is incredibly sad. Why should we turn our backs on a perfectly good part of our history - and our present, too, for speakers of Yiddish - just because vile people have appropriated it?
Slightly off topic but do we know the percentage of Spurs supporters who are Jewish compared to Arsenal? I know a lot of Jews and it seems like for every Spurs supporter, there are 10 Arsenal supporters.
If anyone from the FA is paying attention to this thread and plans to enact the MN Action Plan, I suggest they proactively put a clause entitling them to act against other town names cropping up in replacement of Auschwitz, which also just happen to have been sites of crimes against humanity. I don't trust the FA to work out that nasty thugs can use Wikipedia on their own.
Oblomov, I am not Jewish, I was referencing discussions with my DP who is Jewish.
Russians, I was referring to the hissing. I know that Charlton had some problems with racism, I pointed that out but my experience of attending matches as a child was in the period 1987-1992 and I can't remember hearing any racist remarks in the stand where I was. I know that if I had my Dad would've had something to say about it. We stopped going to the matches with an aquaintance as his friend made some racist remark about a player- my dad no longer wanted to travel with him. I do remember bananas being thrown on to the pitch but they weren't being thrown near us. My point is my Dad was happy to take us along to matches and rightly had no concerns about what we'd be exposed to. My brother on the other hand, 25 years on, does not feel the same- progress for you?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I agree. Even David Cameron.
The point remains that context and intent is paramount in establishing hate crime.
The real problem is the way the FA has handled this, issuing this edict with no consultation, overriding police and legal advice, and without putting forward any proposals with regard to the anti-Semitic hissing/Auschwitz/foreskin chants.
I just asked my (American Jewish) husband what he thought of the situation, and no way is he ready to reclaim the word and use it sparingly at a sports match. He can't imagine any of his friends would feel that way, either.
Honestly, I've only been to a few matches at Emirates, but my DH goes often. We've never heard hissing. I would be gutted if I did, and it would be difficult to let my DS's go.
Euphemism, it did not stop 20 years ago.
It's clear that the chants by the Spurs fans are not abusive and are not being used as hate words. That's why they should not be punished under "hate laws"
But just because they are not abusive does not mean they / the word can upset people.
I agree, it is important to point it out. Kim, it is a stupid minority, and those people are there in all walks of life.
The fact the FA does nothing about it, is the key thing I reckon.
Golden If you are including the chanting by Spurs fans in your definition of anti semitic abuse then you are wrong as the chants are neither anti nor abusive. If you are talking about the hissing - then yes I can completely understand that. Not all clubs' supporters do that though. The hissers are a minority. Despite some claims to the contrary on this thread I have never heard Gooners hiss. Or, say, Palace fans. Or Liverpool fans.
Incidentally Charlton have had a lot of trouble with racism in the past. As have many clubs.
It's probably also worth pointing out that even the for the worst offenders (Chelsea and West Ham and some years ago, Leeds) the majority of supporters are not like this.
Well, then they stopped it twenty years ago - before my time - unlike some of the other clubs which, you can't hear on TV, but you can still sometimes catch it on the radio.
You've put up a strong case, Olgaga, but you can't tell people that yid is not offensive. Most Jewish people DO have a strong visceral reaction to the word. Maybe not most Jewish spurs fans but most others do. Even discussing the word is hard for some of us, it is that nasty a word.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.