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to think if the Jewish Council and the FA are upset by Spurs fans yelling "yid army"

(310 Posts)
kim147 Tue 17-Sep-13 18:44:32

Then Cameron should back off- He says it's not being used as a hate word and the fans claim they are reclaiming it.

The FA and the Jewish council of Deputies think it's offensive.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/17/david-cameron-yids-chants-spurs

Of course, Cameron comes from that privileged class who rarely get called offensive terms (apart from references to Eton)

kim147 Wed 18-Sep-13 08:04:04

I get a lot of what people are saying - and the chants from the other fans sound unbelievable.

But - what about the feelings of Jewish supporters who do get offended hearing "Yid"? Don't their feelings count - even though the other supporters may be trying to reclaim the word?

kim147 Wed 18-Sep-13 08:05:10

For some members of a community, hate words will always be hate words - even if other members of a commmunity are trying to reclaim them.

olgaga Wed 18-Sep-13 09:03:08

Yes kim, such as the use of the N word by black R&B artists in Rap.

The point remains that if someone self refers in the context of reclaiming a term of abuse, it is not motivated by hate but by pride. It is therefore not hate speech.

It may be offensive to some, it doesn't follow that it is an offence in law.

LeGavrOrf Wed 18-Sep-13 09:09:46

Bloody hell at that chanting and the hissing noise. This goes on today? I had no idea and I am shocked.

My brother used to be a steward at a division 1 team, he said there was zero tolerance on racial abuse and chanting and he had the power to sling someone out, and monkey noises were heard at every game, but it was impossible to identify the culprit sometimes.

Horrible. I am just amazed that it goes on.

kim147 Wed 18-Sep-13 09:38:46

olgaga

It is not an offence in law. That makes sense. From my point of view, it's more about the feelings of those Jewish supporters who do get upset listening to it. I think respecting people's feelings is important.

kim147 Wed 18-Sep-13 09:39:43

I'm really surprised the game wasn't stopped when all that chanting was going on.

Chanting about Auschwitz - FFS, what is going on?

TiggyD Wed 18-Sep-13 09:53:19

If the fans call themselves "Yids", then the opposition will either respond with "We respect your history and value your identity" or "We hate yids". I'm guessing the latter.

I'm against the name. Fine the club, dock them points, then ban them from competitions.

Chunderella Wed 18-Sep-13 10:01:28

Your argument seems to rest on the idea that the opposition fans making gas chamber noises et al are responding to Spurs fans though Tiggy. That's not really how it works. Or are you seriously suggesting that clubs with known skinhead fraternities are going to stfu with the anti-Semitic shit as soon as Spurs stop calling themselves Yids?

LeGavrOrf Wed 18-Sep-13 10:09:03

What happens when the hissing and auschwitz chanting goes on? Just everything just carry no regardless? <clueless>

LeGavrOrf Wed 18-Sep-13 10:09:24

Does everything just carry on I meant to type

Cookiewise Wed 18-Sep-13 10:11:54

Not sure about the Jewish Council etc but I am Jewish and it doesn't bother me in this context (Spurs fans shouting "Yid army") because it is not used in a racist/malicious way but has been reappropriated by Spurs fans (many of whom are Jewish) in an affectionate way.

I suppose you could liken it to some black people calling each other "niggas". They have reappropriated a word that has been used against them in the past and have made it their own, so it loses its power as a racist word.

TheBigJessie Wed 18-Sep-13 10:11:56

I started out reading this thread on one side of the fence, but now, thanks to Olgaga and others, I'm vaulted the fence, and I'm squarely on the other side.

This isn't about actually promoting fairness and inclusive football, this is about cracking down on the easy targets, as a pretence of promoting inclusivity.

It's like standing by and watching one group of kids torment the class nerd all day, and then stepping in and punishing him/her for bullying when he snaps and reacts to it under the guise of a rigid anti-bullying policy.

EldritchCleavage Wed 18-Sep-13 10:20:40

How interesting that David Baddiel and Daniel Finkelstein, who find the Spurs fans' chants so offensive, have nothing to say about supporters of their own club (Chelsea) chanting Anti-Semitic abuse

Yes, quite. I'd like to see the 'Kick It Out' campaign take this up as an issue more prominently, and for the London clubs in particular who play derbies with Spurs, to start really cracking down on it.

Arsenal also has a strong connection to the North London Jewish community (David Dein et al). I wonder if their fans ever do it? I've never heard that they do, despite the intense rivalry.

I remember when Mark Bosnich made a Hitler salute when playing against Spurs. Got off far too lightly-he should have got a Suarez-type ban. He claimed he had no idea of the historical significance of what he was doing and people actually seemed prepared to believe him.

All a long-winded way of saying that if there is a widespread problem of anti-Semitic abuse in football (and it seems there is) then Spurs and their chants are not at the root of it, and clobbering the fans of Britain's only 'Jewish' football club is a bloody strange way of tackling it.

TiggyD Wed 18-Sep-13 10:25:47

It's not that Chunderella. If a team call themselves "purples" then the opposition will take the contrary stance "WE hate purples".
Saying "We are #offensive name#" will lead to the opposition saying "We hate #offensive name#".
For spurs fans to say "We are Yids" means their opposition has to say "We hate Yids".

kim147 Wed 18-Sep-13 10:26:10

I've got to admit to being schocked at the chanting that people say is going on.

I'm guessing there's other abusive chants at other clubs as well.

WTF is it with some people? How can this be tackled or is it accepted as a part of the game?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 18-Sep-13 10:29:34

I feel if Jewish supporters are happy with the word being used fine at a football match/with people they know who are not offended by the use of the word but then it is down to them to accept that some Jewish people will be offended and question themselves is that what want at a football match

But what tends to happen is stupid people claim they get confused over what they can or can not say and moan well Jewish/black people can use yid/nigga why can't I

TiggyD Wed 18-Sep-13 10:38:47

The point David Baddiel makes is that Spurs fans are not jewish. Maybe 5% are.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 18-Sep-13 10:43:35

Really I thought far more would be Jewish

I guess the nature of chanting is to insult the others team but can be done without racist chants in return

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Wed 18-Sep-13 10:43:53

Yids, being an subsection of an ethnoreligious group, is a bit different to saying one hates a colour though. And if having Yids as a nickname, even to reclaim a slur, means they "have to say" hateful things about Yids, that's all the more reason it should be questioned.

I can see the debate for inside the stadium, but these chantings often continue well outside of the stadium and into the surrounding areas and public transport. I think the harm it could cause in these areas, the trauma it is likely to cause from either side should be considered as part of the responsibility of the club. I think the entire culture of it is just getting worse, I live within walking distance of the stadium and train station and I keep my kids in on match days this last year or so because the vile abuse just gets worse and louder over the years. Having had drunk fans chant about wanting to kill [my city] was extremely distressing for my kids, I could imagine similar comments using Yids could be very frightening for many indeed.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy Wed 18-Sep-13 10:46:31

*responsibility of the clubS. Obviously it needs to be the Spurs as well as their opponents.

Chunderella Wed 18-Sep-13 10:55:47

And once again Tiggy you're assuming that the opposition are responding to Spurs calling themselves Yids, not vice versa. Why do you think this? And you're also wrong- even if Spurs were calling themselves Yids out of the blue, it would still be open to the opposition to sing 'we hate Spurs' instead of 'we hate Yids'. When my team play Spurs, I sing the former not the latter.

crescentmoon Wed 18-Sep-13 10:56:39

im pretty shocked at whats being said here as well about the hissing and aushwitz chants, didnt know that went on now in 2013. id feel very threatened by chanting and shouting like that aimed at my own community.

EldritchCleavage Wed 18-Sep-13 10:58:05

The point David Baddiel makes is that Spurs fans are not jewish. Maybe 5% are

But as part of their club affiliation and loyalty they have adopted the club's Jewish identity.

TiggyD Wed 18-Sep-13 10:58:35

It's a viscious circle that needs to end.

HavantGuard Wed 18-Sep-13 11:01:42

As he points out, thousands of white people shouting N*** Army would not be considered acceptable, even if they were not intending any offence.

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