To think that this woman is damaging Islam

(104 Posts)
ReallyTired Fri 23-Aug-13 22:33:35

I feel the judge is being reasonable. The woman is facing a very serious charge and if found guilty will be sent to jail.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23814711

Making sure that justice is not perverted is more important than religious rights. Asking someone to show their face in court to make sure that the right person is in the dock is vital. I feel the jury needs to be able to see her body language and facial expressions. Body and facial language can give a liar away quite easily and shows how the person is truely feeling.

It would be interesting to know how Sharia law would handle such a situation. What advice would islamic scholars suggest? I feel a better compromise would be for the woman to wear a hijab in court.

I feel that the woman should be punished for contempt of court.

TylerHopkins Fri 23-Aug-13 22:35:14

I agree.

ReallyTired Fri 23-Aug-13 22:36:10

Why do I think this woman is damaging islam? She is taking the piss! The majority of muslims don't wear the burka.

I suspect that she is being diliberately difficult.

Bowlersarm Fri 23-Aug-13 22:36:36

I agree.

TylerHopkins Fri 23-Aug-13 22:36:48

....with the judges decision that is.

slapandpickle Fri 23-Aug-13 23:10:35

erm ok, this one woman is damaging a faith held by billions...?

weird phrasing hmm

either it's her strongly held belief or she's being awkward, either way, I don't see how it could "damage Islam" to anyone's mind, it's to do with her and her alone.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 23-Aug-13 23:13:19

She has chosen to wear a niqab for religious reasons not to be difficult it is her choice and how she wishes to practise Islam

I can not see why a female police officer can not identify her

EldritchCleavage Fri 23-Aug-13 23:16:49

Silly thread title, it is actually a rather difficult question.

Assume it is a genuine and deeply held conviction of hers. You can't simply disregard that because that many other Muslims feel differently.
Equally, the judge has a very valid concern too.

If she is identified to the court at every session then permitted to veil herself again, I think that would be the best course. I pity the judge actually, it is not an easy matter and he's probably going to cop shit for whatever decision he makes.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 23-Aug-13 23:17:03

and why is she damaging Islam, our press do a good enough job of that

She represents herself no one else she just happens to be a Muslim woman

RussianBlu Fri 23-Aug-13 23:21:03

Assuming that she wears it all the time and isn't just wearing it now for the purpose of being a pain in the neck, I don't see why she can't just show her face to a female court official before she enters the room. Perhaps its the judge who is being unreasonable and awkward.

kali110 Fri 23-Aug-13 23:25:44

Think judge was in the right. As silly as it sounds if person who identified the women was involved in criminal activity with the accused, could say oh yes thats the right woman.

justanuthermanicmumsday Fri 23-Aug-13 23:41:59

I don't think she's damaging Islam like someone said its the press and ignorant folks who don't do research and presume everything said tabloids print is a true depiction of any particular belief or story.

Something I've not mentioned because i thought it was irrelevant and i wanted to be treated as everyone else is here, but I wear the face veil. In Islam I know of a few instances where the veil can be removed.

In front of your own family and any male who is not eligible to marry you it may be removed,

outside if men are at a distance

For the pilgrimage which all Muslims who are able to must perform once in their lifetime the face veil is to be removed . Scholars have made concessions though the ruling is based on no cloth touching the face, hence there are specially designed face veils that have a Brim on them and the veil hanging over. Should certain women feel uncomfortable foregoing the face veil in close proximity to men they can wear that to meet the conditions of the pilgrimage. In haj there's so many people its uncomfortable for women in general face veil or not.

For ID purposes I.e public transport, airports, when making applications for various reasons births, marriages, gp practice etc, police.

In a court of law it can be removed I don't know if it must be removed in an Islamic country but it can be. But since we are living in the uk we are to abide by the laws of the country we reside in so its not unreasonable to remove the veil in the courts either.

I'm not a scholar from what I have read and understood this is what I adhere to unless someone or new information I come Upon tells me otherwise.

Reading the article which I've just come across now I think the judge is unreasonable not because I'm muslim and happen to wear a veil. But it was suggested he simply needs to confirm her identity. So why make a big fuss. Why not allow a female member of staff do that discreetly . There is no need for all and sundry to do that, since he did say it was for ID and nothing else? Had he said her testimony won't be acceptable with a veil on he'd be treading in hot waters. Why do a search on uk courts and how they are to treat women in hijab and the veil and you will see they are not compelled to remove their veils. I looked into it as I was called as a juror.

EldritchCleavage Fri 23-Aug-13 23:52:51

Why not allow a female member of staff do that discreetly . There is no need for all and sundry to do that, since he did say it was for ID and nothing else?

It is the judge who needs to receive evidence, particularly witness evidence, and he can't delegate that to other people.

cantspel Fri 23-Aug-13 23:59:08

The first thing asked of a defendant in open court is

Are you so and so

To identify that the correct person is in the dock and so that the criminal justice system is not only fair and correct but can be seen to be fair and correct by anyone who wishes to take notice of proceedings. There for i cant see how this woman can be identified by someone outside of the court.

I think in a court of law then you have to set aside a religious belief so that justice can be seen to be done and the judge is correct in the stance he has taken.

BrokenSunglasses Sat 24-Aug-13 00:29:30

I don't think she's damaging Islam itself, but I don't think she's doing the image of Islam any good when it comes to the many people who know little about it or who already have a negative image of it. That's not her problem though, and she shouldn't be expected to show her face because of what other people might feel.

I do think it's reasonable that anyone who is in a courtroom should be expected to show their face, not only for identification, but also because facial expressions matter.

The law has to come above religion.

TylerHopkins Sat 24-Aug-13 00:30:32

The law has to come above religion

Absolutely.

nailak Sat 24-Aug-13 00:32:06

In shariah in court you have to take veil off. I don't really see how one Muslims action damages Islam?

http://www.islamqa.info/en/ref/2198

IV – Testimony

It is permissible for a woman to uncover her face when she is giving testimony in court, whether she is a witness in a case or is there to witness a deal, and it is permissible for the qaadi (judge) to look at her in order to know who she is and to protect the rights of all concerned.

Shaykh al-Dardeer said: “It is not permitted to give testimony against a woman in niqaab until she uncovers her face so that it may be known who she is and what she looks like.” (Al-Sharh al-Kabeer li’l- Shaykh al-Dardeer, 4/194)

Ibn Qudaamah said: “The witness may look at the face of the woman against whom he is testifying so that his testimony will speak about her in specific terms. Ahmad said: ‘He cannot testify against a woman unless he knows who she is.’” (Al-Mughni, 7/459; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/348, bi haamish al-Mughni; al-Hidaayah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/26).

V – In court cases

It is permissible for a woman to uncover her face in front of a qaadi (judge) who is to rule either in her favour or against her, and in this situation he may look at her face in order to know who she is and for the sake of protecting people’s rights.

The same rules that apply to giving testimony or bearing witness also apply in court cases, because they serve the same purpose. (See Al-Durar al-Mukhtaar, 5/237; Al-Hadiyah al-‘Alaa’iyah, p. 244; Al-Hadiyah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/26).

WetAugust Sat 24-Aug-13 00:34:31

Justice has to be seen to be done.

You could ask why does the accused have to be in court at all?

ivykaty44 Sat 24-Aug-13 00:36:16

I don't see why she should be treated differently from anyone else appearing in the dock.

Any person in the dock has to have their face showing that includes this woman.

Otherwise every single accused person could decide I am going to cover my face so no one can see me in the dock - then no judge could discriminate if this judge had set a precedence

justanuthermanicmumsday Sat 24-Aug-13 00:37:06

No one mentioned what the uk law courts say regarding the veil see here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/6588157.stm

ivykaty44 Sat 24-Aug-13 00:40:56

that link is to what the law says about wearing a veil in court not in the dock

Fakebook Sat 24-Aug-13 00:41:22

I don't think she's damaging Islam, but she certainly isn't representing herself as a Muslim woman very well. The face veil is supposed to be a form of modesty...and what's she doing? Going around intimidating people! Talk about being a hypocrite.

AgentZigzag Sat 24-Aug-13 00:42:53

I can't see how this one situation could have a damaging effect on Islam. Or are you maybe thinking some people (non-Muslims) might see her as 'another awkward Muslim' asking for special treatment?

I suppose it is being a bit awkward if this situation hasn't come up before, and you'd have to ask why she would push the boundaries. If other women from the same religion can take their veils off, then it's this woman's personal choice.

It's relevant because she's been accused of intimidating a witness and identification is a large part of that, but there's no fail safe way of telling whether someone's lying or not, seeing their face means nothing, especially in a stressful situation.

It's probably just the judge tantruming, wanting control in his own courtroom <purely supposition (M'lud)>

AgentZigzag Sat 24-Aug-13 00:45:36

Maybe she's not fussed about representing any groups Fakebook? I can't say I would be.

'and what's she doing? Going around intimidating people! Talk about being a hypocrite'

And she hasn't been convicted of anything as yet grin

Fakebook Sat 24-Aug-13 00:52:55

Oh I thought she had been! I read the article earlier today/yesterday and can't remember the whole thing blush.

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