AIBU in thinking that anyone who had ever actually given birth would never let an 11 year old make the decision to give birth?

(167 Posts)
MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Wed 10-Jul-13 17:10:45

And that if an 11 year old can't make the decision to have consensual sex she can't possibly understand the complexities of pregnancy and labor? Especially as doctors have said it could kill her?

If you haven't heard of this it's one of the most upsetting stories I have ever read in a long while.

latino.foxnews.com/latino/health/2013/07/10/chile-president-praises-pregnant-11-year-old-maturity-for-keeping-baby/

sashh Fri 12-Jul-13 03:43:37

If she has conceived her body has obviously reached sexual maturity so I am not sure why people think her body would not be able to cope with the physical aspects of preganancy and birth

There are huge problems in Pakistan where young girls are married and give birth. They are often left incontinent, their husband and family no longer want them, often he husband finds another child to marry and the same happens again. Other than 'simple' incontinence it s common to a have a fistula that means urine continually feeds into your vagina.

The day you start your periods is not the day your body is ready to carry a baby.

www.jpma.org.pk/full_article_text.php?article_id=1896

QueenStromba Thu 11-Jul-13 23:57:13

I hope this girl and her baby are given into the care of her grandmother - she is the only person who seems to have her best interests at heart.

I felt very sad reading the wiki link about the youngest mothers. Not only had all of these girls reached sexual maturity by the age of ten but they'd also been abused by that age. I was especially saddened by the girl who was a grandmother by the age of 17 - not only was she abused but her daughter was too. Unfortunately pregnant 11 year olds seem to be far too common to bother reporting.

edam Thu 11-Jul-13 21:11:30

Napa - it's not 'being manipulated by the media'. The girl is being manipulated by her disgusting stepfather, by her mother and by the government. The media are doing their job by holding the government to account.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 20:41:58

edit

I am doing so well today... hmm

Girls (the human kind) under 15 are five times more likely to die during pregnancy and birth than women over 20.

NapaCab Thu 11-Jul-13 20:01:37

It's a tragic case and the saddest aspect of it is how it's clearly being manipulated by the media to focus on the debate about abortion laws. The situation she is in would be awful no matter what the abortion laws are. I think it's important to debate abortion in a country like Chile where it's illegal but it's sad that it takes a case like this to get people interested in the issue.

Chunderella Thu 11-Jul-13 19:57:45

No. Not most. Enough survive. Enough for evolution not to keep on evolving so birth isn't so inherently risky for females and babies in that species.

Exactly. That's how evolution works. It isn't necessary for all or even the majority of a species to survive. Just enough of them to keep going. If a process, mutation, whatever, is sufficiently advantageous in other ways, it can make evolutionary sense despite being intrinsically dangerous. Birth amongst humans being a classic example. And of course being able to conceive doesn't mean your body can safely carry a pregnancy and give birth. Even if that were the normal way of things, which it's not, there are always people whose bodies do things 'wrongly'.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 19:28:28

edit

To give context, the maternal mortality rate of birth even in countries with low perinatal mortality such as the states, is 14 higher than the maternal mortality rate of abortion in the same country

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 19:24:58

I donm't think 11 yos are ready for sexual contact obviously!! But the point I am making is that in a primitive society , and in the animal world females would be getting pregnant as soon as they were sexually mature, and presumably most survive

No. Not most. Enough survive. Enough for evolution not to keep on evolving so birth isn't so inherently risky for females and babies in that species.

Girls (the human kind) under 15 are twenty times more likely to die during pregnancy and birth than women over 20. Their children are at a higher risk of prematurity, stillbirth and being part of the infant mortality stats as well as the perinatal mortality stats.

To give context, birth even in countries with low perinatal mortality such as the states is 14 higher than abortion in the same country. Birth has always been dangerous and potentially deadly. The more risk factors added on (and precocious pregnancy is a high risk factor) the greater the potential for injury and death.

And survive does not necessarily mean a good outcome in the physical (let alone the emotional) sense. For an example of just one post birth complication, the rate of fistula leading to shunning and increased degrees of poverty is high in cultures with poor obstetric care. The rate and degree of damage is higher still in younger mothers. I cried buckets at the waste of female humanity as the result of fistula alone after watching a documentary. They were alive. But, whole they were not. Not physically, not emotionally and not psychologically. Being a pariah is no way to live.

Very many of the girls on the list of known very young mother suffered from precocious puberty, an anomaly, with menarche as young as the first year of life and breast development in toddlerhood. Something that tends to get treated these days where quality medical care allows for it.

Nature is not some wise, fluffy entity that knows best. Nature does not care. As long as enough (not most, not many, just enough) of us survive, regardless of state of wellbeing and intactness, then that is "good enough" for nature.

And anybody who remains unconvinced of that needs to google birth in hyaenas and then come back and see if they still think nature is in anyway invested in "most" of any species of mothers or babies surviving for their own sake.

chocoluvva Thu 11-Jul-13 18:49:56

In primitive societies girls often don't get their periods till later then girls in developed countries.

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 18:47:53

xylem fucking vets tell people to wait before letting their animals breed for the health of the animal. these pregnancies aren't called high risk because they are so safe

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 18:41:12

I donm't think 11 yos are ready for sexual contact obviously!! But the point I am making is that in a primitive society , and in the animal world females would be getting pregnant as soon as they were sexually mature, and presumably most survive

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 18:39:34

No point really .I don't condone preteens having babies!!Just following on from the post about the 9 yo

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 18:29:47

I can think of two points xylem could be making. they either think children are ready for sexual contact based on their ability to get pregnant, or their are extremely antichoice of adult women and hoping that stories like this won't make women think too hard about abortion.

Guessing that if she survives this baby she wont be having any more. sad
I wish someone medical could just talk to her.

chocoluvva Thu 11-Jul-13 17:02:08

Girls who are pregnant while still in their teens (or younger obviously) have a greater risk of pre-eclampsia.

In many countries one of the factors that would classify a pregnancy as 'high risk' are being under 17 years old.

What point are you trying to make by citing examples of very young girls who have given birth xylem?

5madthings Thu 11-Jul-13 16:23:29

xylem the link to the five yr old and others has already been posted. Most of them had to have c sections to Orem babies, some of the babies died during birth. Yes young girls get preg but it causes physical rems. If it weren't for c sections both girl and baby would often die in childbirth.

In many of these cases the girls had had precocious puberty, this is often treated now with medications to stop menstruation etc. The fact that young girls get preg and have babies doesn't make it OK. If you look at the list lots of them were made pregnant by close family members, friends, the girls won't have been in a consensual relationship. They were abused.

xylem8 Thu 11-Jul-13 15:21:47

just did a search and found out that a 9 year old gave birth in Mexico this year and a 10 year old in Colombia.

The youngest recorded mother was a 5 yr old who gave birth to a 6lb baby

MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps Thu 11-Jul-13 14:48:24

She won't have been told any of that while she's giving soundbites to the media about how she's "chosen" to keep her baby.

Even if she had been told and was scared shitless she'd not be allowed to abort it. She's doing this because they're "good" Catholics and that's what you do. Women are only as good as their uteri.

chocoluvva Thu 11-Jul-13 14:41:26

xylem an 11YO is very likely to suffer internal damage as a result not just of delivering the baby but by carrying the baby to full/ nearly full term: damage to her bladder is highly likely.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 13:35:45

To force an abortion could cause her life long mental trauma, and she has been through enough already.

Excpet that isn't going to happen to her.

There is ZERO risk of that.

The risks this child potentially faces are life long mental truama, physcial harm and even death from forced gestation and birth. Becuase her pregancny is known to the authorities and she lives in a country with no access to abortion regardless of the circumstances of the preganancy.

The child at risk of forced abortion is the child with a pregancny unknown to the authorities , where national access is limited to backstreet options where one cannot count on medical ethics flourishing and being all that concerned about issues like consent, informed or any other flavour.

ZZZenagain Thu 11-Jul-13 13:26:59

just did a search and found out that a 9 year old gave birth in Mexico this year and a 10 year old in Colombia.

Awful situation. Just awful sad. Poor girl. However I do feel she should be allowed a say in this. It is her body, her baby. Just because she is young doesn't mean she won't be feeling the emotional bond many mothers feel with their unborn child. To force an abortion could cause her life long mental trauma, and she has been through enough already.

ZZZenagain Thu 11-Jul-13 13:14:11

other article
If she could get to Uruguay she would be able to have a legal abortion but I doubt anyone is offering her that option. Seems Chile did allow abortions for medical reasons until 1973 when Pinochet's govt made an absolute ban on abortion. Since paediatricians have said both the girl and her baby are at risk, this would be a case for intervening on medical grounds. If the law permitted this in the past, I could see it being reintroducedl. After all these are not Pinochet's days even if Chile is generally conservative.

From this article it sounds as if a lot of people in Chile feel she should have the option.

5madthings Thu 11-Jul-13 13:12:34

PD if a child wants to refuse treatment drs can and do go to courttk decide if a child jaa the proper understanding amd capacity to make an I formed choice, I think even if parents support the child's decision the drs and courts can still intervene.

CarpeVinum Thu 11-Jul-13 13:10:41

she has stated what she wants to happen

I am perplexed as to why people look at the context of this case and leap to the conclusion that we can be wholly reassured that

a) her preferrence jibes with the gov. acting as her spokesperson.

b) the ethics of informed consent and individualised councelling have been observed with the patient's well being being the absolute priority.

c) her capcity to be a catalyst for increased popular support towards the relaxation of abortion laws and the gov's reluctance to consider said relaxation is not a factor in how her views are being presented by 3rd parties nor potentially a factor in how she has been advised by medical and "spirtual" authorites.

cannot oppose a ban on abortion but enforce abortion on others

Which is why a legally sanctioned choice based system is best. Becuase without it there are no controls that intend to weed out cases of forced or coersed abortion.

However in this case what we are looking at is not a risk of enforced abortion, but a context of a national ban on abortion without exceptions and enforced carrying to term and birth. Which apparently doesn't ruffle nearly as many feathers nor cause people to cast even a smidgen of doubt the validity of what gov. spokespeople are presenting as her fully informed choice.

As I understand it children are involved and do participate in any life changing medical proceedures and treamemnts they may need, in terms of informed choice and consent. I see no reason why that shouldn't or isn't extended to termination. However I don't believe the same standard of ethics can be assumed to be in practice in this case.

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