ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
To feel sad to see 5 year old girl in hijab(909 Posts)
Probably will get flamed for this & iabu as its not my business.
I am not racist in any way. I am Asian myself and have many Muslim friends.
Growing up, I never saw any muslim girls with hijabs. This is a trend which has been growing since the late 90s.
I know that the meaning behind the hijab is to protect modesty and show committment to Islam. It is supposed to be the girls/womans decision after much thought and dedication.
At 5 years old they are still getting changed in the classroom for PE and she won't be able to do this now with boys around. How will she play and do PE freely? She has been singled out by the views of her parents.
Also, she will barely know what religion means, so she has not made an informed decision for herself.
Normally she is chasing about with my DS and other kids before school.Today she was just stood there, perhaps embarrassed or told not to?
I felt very sad
I was reading about awrah on Wikipedia (yes, I know Wikipedia isn't an unimpeachable source), and several things stood out to me.
The etymological derivation of awrah itself indicates an opinion of women less than ideal, but more specifically, the difference in definitions of what is awrah for men and for women seems to me to be a competition for who can be the most restrictive in what is and isn't considered to be an 'intimate part'.
Why are womens' faces, in some definitions, intimate, and not mens'? And even womens' voices are considered awrah in some instances. Why not mens' voices?
We seem to nearing the end of this thread - it is unfortunate that crumbled , you have been so narrow minded and continuously been oppressive of freedom of choice. Please stop pretending to care about the women in other countries. you are quite disingenuous and very unreceptive to any information that contradicts or challenges your unpalatable views that deprive the woman of freedom of choice.
The problems of the oppressed women around the world do not start and end at the hijab - It has however become the cause to champion, for people like you - to liberate these women from something that was not the cause of their suffering in the first place. Not for the sake of these women, but because you cannot stand the hijab. You have decided to make the hijab symbolic of oppression -again a narrow and blinkered and incorrect view, because time after time, hijab wearing and non-hijab wearing women here have told you that they are not oppressed.
You can try to cover it however you like (no pun intended!) but your views smack of the disgusting out-dated mentality of being somehow superior or trying to teach 'them' of a better way of life, so they can see how great 'we' are. Let them remove 'their' funny costume and become like 'us' to feel liberated. Because 'their' life is not as 'enriched as 'ours' until they do. You talk of freedom - all you have done in this entire thread is try to take away another woman's freedom, because of your beliefs - with little regard for theirs.
You have extremely bigoted views. FYI: a bigot is a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race (world english dictionary)
"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract." Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.
the less than ideal opinion I think you are referring to is the Persian meaning of awrah not the Arabic meaning. In The latter the word awrah is neither confined to women nor even just to the body- in the quran awrah is translated to mean 'vulnerable' as well as the 'nakedness' of both men and women.
The debate on differences in what constitutes awrah for men and women in different parts of the Muslim world is similar to what constitutes awrah in the western world. It isnt a race to see who can be the most restrictive as much as different cultural traditions and religious takes within sunni islam. Compare attitudes to nakedness between the countries Germany/Sweden/ Britain/America. All 'protestant' christian countries. there are often threads about these differences in societal norms- amongst liberal westrn democracies. why can't a women walk around topless in the UK when a man can walk around topless? she may even be arrested for that.
The difference of mens and womens bodies can be seen in advertising also. It is womens bodies that are used to adorn products and services. to whose eye? the male gaze. Even for products used by both men and women. In the quran the significant verses on covering men are commanded to lower their gaze and cover their private parts. But the following verse to women doesn't use the word 'private parts' but the word 'adornment'. So tells women to lower their gaze and cover their adornment 'except what is usually apparent'. The word adornment is also used in the quran to describe 'children' - that they are an adornment of this world. And the stars are described as 'adornments' for the heavens. And gold and clothes are described as 'adornments' - that which enhances the attraction of something. the quran describes the private parts of women as adornments but also women themselves as part of the adornment of the worldly life-that women themselves not their bodies enhance the beauty of the temporary world. (but not for the benefit of capitalism)
As to voices there is a verse in the quran specifically to the wives of the prophet that says do not 'soften' your voices when talking to unrelated men 'lest he in whose heart is a disease will move with desire'. It says instead therefore 'speak in an honourable manner' (not 'do not speak at all') which is the difference in modern times between speaking in a 'formal' manner and a 'casual' manner. some muslims took this verse to mean that the voice is also part of the 'awrah' or part of the 'adornment' of women. But many muslims take it as more of a general guide rather than law- not least because it specifically addresses a Group. It's also based on the culture of the place where the quran is being read.
Iv learnt alot from this friend. Those verses quoted from the bible about women covering their heads gave me the context of why head covering is seen as submissive in the west. Because those verses specifically use the words to submit to men and mention the place of women to men.
The sole two verses in the quran about hijab are completely different to the extent to the bible verses on headcovering that it comes down to the hadith and interpretation to get the true meaning. As The quran leaves it open as to what is adornment and then what is a cover. Will post the verses side by side tomorrow to show what i mean and compare.
Gah: Alot from this *thread not friend (damn you autocorrect!)
"you have been so narrow minded and continuously been oppressive of freedom of choice."
Not true at all. You haven't read my posts. In fact it is more of an appeal to educated, non-oppressed, free Muslim women. And there was a specific post (which you cannot possibly have read) where I said choice was extremely important, and a ban on covering would defeat the purpose.
"You have extremely bigoted views. FYI: a bigot is a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own."
Absolutely not true. I am tolerant of all views - I don't have to agree with you. By that definition you would fit it yourself. In fact you misrepresent my views, which is worse: you come to a judgement full of prejudice.
"your views smack of the disgusting out-dated mentality of being somehow superior or trying to teach 'them' of a better way of life, so they can see how great 'we' are"
How ironic. To be accused of being out-dated by someone who defends gender inequality. If you'd read my posts, you'd see the issue of colonial feminism has been discussed. In fact I was asked to listen to Muslim women and enlighten them, I was asked to criticise the society and I was asked to take a stand. Not by anyone on my side of the debate, I suggest you read my posts again, and some of my links.
It seems that once again you've been addressing imaginary posts by an imaginary person.
"Not for the sake of these women, but because you cannot stand the hijab"
Please don't ascribe to me views I don't hold. This is all in your head.
dondrapers why does what i wear have to be seen in comaparison to what my husband wears?
Why can i not just be me? do i have to think oh i better not wear what i like as my husband doesnt dress like that?
sisters we are oppressed.
Is true, we dont believe in freedom we believe in submission.
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