The daughter I knew is dead - what a thing say!

(281 Posts)
Animation Sat 22-Jun-13 14:39:59

Can't help but think that the mother's words and attitude to her daughter, and apparently they don't speak, could be as damaging as Jeremy Forrest's behaviour towards her.
Am I unreasonable in thinking this??

LittlePeaPod Wed 26-Jun-13 15:28:40

LazyJaney

I just don't believe it. Oddly enough that number goes up every time a self serving charity re-looks at it.

Have you considered that may be to do with the fact more children have more/better access to getting help/support?

I'd be interested to see what they define as abuse as well.

I would be interested in hearing what your definition of abuse is? What do you define as abuse LazyJaney?

Then people wonder why children are afraid to report the abuse when you have adults doubting what defines child abuse and slating charities set up to help these children..

noddyholder Tue 25-Jun-13 09:05:52

And I would love to know WHy you want to argue against them?sad

THERhubarb Tue 25-Jun-13 09:03:16

One thing worth highlighting is that those official crime figures are just the crimes recorded IN ONE YEAR.

And yes LazyJaney you would be right when you say that those figures seem to rise. That's because they are rising. Whether that is through more children willing to report or because there are just more cases of sexual abuse we'll never know, but the sexual exploitation of children is prevalent, in this society and elsewhere.

I'd love to know how you can argue with clear cut figures like those.

noddyholder Tue 25-Jun-13 08:57:18

Lazey Rhubarb is right look at her posts they are full of teh information you need to make you and others like you 'believe'. Amongst my closest friend I can't think of one of us who hasn't had an inappropriate sexual advance at least once in our lives and several of us younger than 16

THERhubarb Tue 25-Jun-13 08:55:11

Lazyjaney of course you don't believe it. Of course these figures are just plucked out of the air by charities to serve their own purposes, I mean it's not like they'll be asked to produce evidence of those stats is it?

The NSPCC stats, studies, research and other figures including the sources, how many children were involved in the studies, what kind of abuse they are talking about, etc. Some of the figures are recorded crime figures like this one:

17,186 sexual crimes were recorded in England and Wales in 2011/2012 against children under 16. That does not include Scotland and of course these are just the crimes reported. I suppose those figures are made up too?

Do you want a break down of what kind of sexual abuse that constituted? Here you go:

4,991 offences of rape of a female child under 16

889 offences of rape of a male child under 16

3,986 offences of sexual assault on a female child under 13

1,010 offences of sexual assault on a male child under 13

5,779 offences of sexual activity involving a child under 16

160 offences of abuse of children through prostitution and pornography

371 offences of sexual grooming.

1 in 3 teenage girls are subjected to sexual abuse by their boyfriends

Other figures show that 1 in 3 reported rapes is against a child under the age of 16.
48% of young men don't think it's rape to have sex with a girl too drunk to give consent and more than 67% would carry on having sex with a girl even if she was crying.

Those figures are from studies which are published by the NSPCC here and which discuss the law, what the role the NSPCC plays, future projects and the impact of things like pornography on relationships.

Of course Lazyjaney I don't expect you to accept any of these figures or the studies which have been done. Many people would prefer to bury their heads in the sand than admit that there is a huge problem. Most hope it will just go away of its own accord and they resent charities like the NSPCC for highlighting these issues, even accusing the charities of making up the research in order to gain more funding - even though the research has been documented and witnessed and is backed up by official crime records.

It's this flat denial which puts young girls in danger because who can they turn to? Who will believe them? No wonder 34% of children abused by an adult don't tell anyone.

Lazyjaney Tue 25-Jun-13 07:15:05

"According to recent figures by the NSPCC 1 in every 3 girls will be exposed to some sort of sexual abuse."

I just don't believe it. Oddly enough that number goes up every time a self serving charity re-looks at it.

I'd be interested to see what they define as abuse as well.

notanyanymore Tue 25-Jun-13 00:02:31

X post rhubarb.
Edam - weirdly enough my sister had to sign for her husband to get the snip before they would proceed??? Then, she was told she wasn't allowed any contraceptive devices to help with insanely heavy periods as her husband had had the snip! All seemed very odd to me! I told her to tell them she was having an affair. Funnily enough when she went back and saw a female Dr she didn't have to stoop that low!

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 21:42:23

That's no time at all really; I was born in the early 70s.

Anyway thanks edam sorry to sound defeatist , it's just so bloody frustrating!

edam Mon 24-Jun-13 21:31:27

Rhubarb, I know how depressing it is to see such horrible prejudices played out yet again, but we do need to keep on challenging them. Don't give up! Just a couple of decades ago, the idea of rape within marriage was regarded as an absurdity - now it's rightly recognised as a crime. Things can change.

My Mother shocked me recently by mentioning that when she was a young woman, the hospital wanted my father's consent before they performed a D&C after a miscarriage. shock This was the 1970s, not the dark ages. Doctors also demanded his consent before fitting a coil, because married men were entitled to have children.

(She refused to get my Dad to sign the consent form, causing a huge row with the doctors both times. She won, but had to threaten to sue them. She says my Dad was just as horrified as she was.)

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 21:11:41

Having read through a variety of news media today I really feel thoroughly disheartened and wondering if views like mine (and others on this thread and elsewhere on MN) are in the minority.

There was report in the Guardian highlighting that the press needs to be careful how they report these stories (which also contains some very sad details about the girls home life) but it's like a voice in the wilderness, if you get what I mean...and they've published a story from a girl who had an affair with her teacher so what's wrong with this. Awful.

working what a horrific story. It's frightening, truly frightening how ready people are to collude with and minimise abuse.

bottleofbeer Mon 24-Jun-13 20:58:56

A close family member on my sister's ex's side started a relationship with a 13 year old when he was in his late 20's.

They got married a few years ago and have a child. It's hailed as a wonderful love story overcoming small minded prejudices. Seriously. All the naysayers were wrong because look at them now!

I personally think it's disgusting and married or not it will never change the fact he was a grown man sleeping with a 13 year old girl.

And he's a bloody youth worker.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 24-Jun-13 19:57:47

Rhubarb - excellent post. Her mother is clearly heartbroken, yet, along with his ex-wife, is being blamed for this. I find it sickening.

Whatever the circumstances, if a woman can possibly be held responsible, she will be. Ian Huntley's mother held Maxine Carr responsible for the Soham murders - because if she'd 'given him what he wanted at home' he wouldn't need to seek gratification elsewhere. Whilst most sane people would disregard that as madness (after all, she wasn't even there) and accept that she was coerced into giving him a false alibi - it didn't stop the masses baying for her blood as much as his.

I do believe the school bears some responsibility in Forrest's case, however. But not the victim, and not her mother and not Forrest's wife.

working9while5 Mon 24-Jun-13 18:46:08

When I was at school, a teacher abducted his preschool daughter aided by a student from our school. Due to the guards in Ireland not realising the danger he posed, he sadly was given time to murder her and himself when he was found out. He had kept her in captivity for two years.

The rage at the ex-student was huge - but he had been in a "relationship" with her since she too was a young girl hmm. The misogyny of his actions was not as reviled as her part in keeping his secret.

Dawndonna Mon 24-Jun-13 15:16:06

Well said Therhubarb

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 11:56:58

Yes you are probably correct (sadly) but still, thank you for saying it.

THERhubarb Mon 24-Jun-13 11:45:26

No matter how true the words, unfortunately this notion of women and girls as seductresses is so ingrained in our society and has been for thousands of years, that the chance of changing attitudes now is a lost cause.

These words will fall on the deaf ears of people who have closed their minds to anything which challenges their pre-conceived ideas.

LittlePeaPod Mon 24-Jun-13 11:34:47

THERhubarb thank you. Thank you so much for your post. It's music to my ears. I have just been on a different thread were adults/parents were making excuses and I was/am struggling to understand why... You post is both enlightened and completely right! Thank you again..

5madthings Mon 24-Jun-13 11:26:58

Brilliant post rhubarb and one that should be read by some on another thread (now full) who are saying the girl needs to take some responsibility...

I despair of victim blaming and it is so widespread in society sad

flippinada Mon 24-Jun-13 11:22:46

Yes, what a fantastic post. Thanks Rhubarb

CatsAndTheirPizza Mon 24-Jun-13 10:52:18

Ditto. Horrified by your experiences of posing as a child on-line too.

Excellent Post TheRhubarb.

BarbarianMum Mon 24-Jun-13 10:36:14

Excellent post TheRhubarb

In fact, I'm going to print it out and hand it to my sister who is one of the 'she knew what she was doing' parade shock. Wish I'd had it to hand during that argument discussion!

sashh Mon 24-Jun-13 10:30:07

THERhubarb

Very well written, and I agree with every point.

THERhubarb Mon 24-Jun-13 10:05:37

You know, when I was studying criminology I was shocked to discover that most paedophiles have absolutely no sense that what they are doing is wrong. This is what makes them so dangerous. They believe that abuse, especially sexual, is another way of showing their love to a child.

I read scores of interviews with jailed paedophiles in which they compared themselves to homosexuals, saying that one day they too, will be accepted by society and what they do will no longer be a crime.

At the time I was horrified and deeply disturbed by their attitude. Reading this thread is more horrifying because now I understand why they don't think that what they are doing is wrong. Because there are so many people willing to turn a blind eye, to blame the child (especially if that child is a girl) and to excuse their behaviour.

It seems that some sections of society already accept some forms of paedophila as normal. In fact there are cultures in which it is perfectly acceptable, where children have few rights and where girls are mere commodities.

Let's be very clear about this. Mr Forrest was grooming not just this child but other children from the ages of 13. These are children who are only a year into secondary school, who are still finding their feet.

He actively pursued a relationship with these young girls and in this particular one he struck gold, because she was also quite vulnerable and had a childish crush on him, which must have been quite evident. He sent her letters, took her out, gave her gifts, wrote her songs - in short he did everything to seduce her.

Yet, even after reading all of that, even after knowing all the facts of the case there are still posters who make excuses for him. In their heads, despite everything they hear to the contrary, he was the one led astray by this 'wild child' and it was she who put him up to everything.

And who assisted this teacher in his advances? Other men. Even her own father. She has been treated like a commodity, sold to the highest bidder. That she was exploited, targeted, abused makes no difference because his right to love and lust trumps her right to innocence and a childhood.

According to recent figures by the NSPCC 1 in every 3 girls will be exposed to some sort of sexual abuse. Online grooming is everywhere and I recently investigated Habbo Hotel as research for an article I wrote about security on children's sites. I posed as a 12 year old girl. I was asked for my facebook account, for my skype details and told by one that he wanted to make love to me. That was within 10 minutes of first signing up for an account.

My own dd is 12. She will be 13 in July. I fear for her more than ever because of peoples attitudes towards young girls. Apparently if her teacher started grooming her now and she ran away with him when she turned 15, that would be ok according to some on here.

It's a disgusting attitude but it makes me understand now why those paedophiles who were interviewed said what they did. Why they thought it was acceptable behaviour. I never thought that anyone would blame a child for the actions of a grown man until I came across this thread. I am still struggling to understand that thought process but it has made me realise that even in this educated society, a very outdated attitude exists still which is probably more threatening to our children than the paedos themselves. The attitude that young girls are the seducers and the men, mere innocent victims.

It's the attitude the Taliban have and it's why women are dressed from head to toe lest the sight of them causes a man to sin. It's why some children are cast out as witches. It's why young girls who are abducted from Nepal and are forced to work in the sex industry in Nepal are never allowed back into their families or communities if they are rescued; it's why girls are killed in 'honour killings'. It's an attitude as old as Adam and Eve. That girls and women are sent to tempt men.

It's an attitude that makes me want to keep my dd close to me and to never let her go.

alreadytaken Mon 24-Jun-13 08:39:02

heartbrokenmum73 flowers for saying what I would have liked to say but I couldn't find the right words.

Of course if this was your son or brother you'd want to believe it was a love story but even then you should say that what he did was wrong. If he loved the girl he'd have moved schools so he wasn't in a position of trust and authority in relation to her and he'd kept his hands off her until she was older.

The mother is the only person close to the girl coming out of this with any credit, she was failed by her father and her school.

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