to think homeopaths really just make money out of the gullible?

(1000 Posts)
WidowWadman Sat 08-Jun-13 20:59:47

A remedy made from diluted bits of the Berlin Wall - seriously, that's surely just a test to find out how far they can push it, isn't?

seeker Mon 10-Jun-13 09:21:47

Conventional medicine gets things wrong. But it usually doesn't. And should be called to account when it does.

Homeopathy is always useless.

EllieArroway Mon 10-Jun-13 09:21:53

Personally I think you have to be gullible to fall for the idea that homeopathy is one of the big problems of the health service

Who said that?

And, really - that's your argument? Some aspects of modern medicine are not perfect so no one has the right to dismiss as arrant nonsense homeopathy?

How ridiculous.

If homeopathy works, how come everybody who drinks water (including all animals) isn't being continually cured of everything? Oh - right....you have to tap it first!

And I would be very careful trawling through the tabloids for evidence to support your arguments. Ben Goldacre found that something like 80% of all DM medical articles are either completely wrong, or deeply flawed and misleading.

ImagineJL Mon 10-Jun-13 09:24:50

I am certain that if homeopathy was state funded and the homeopath had 10 minutes to see a patient, then it would never work, ever. In my opinion any benefit is due entirely to placebo effect and the nice feeling of someone being able to spend ages listening to you. Oh and the fact that it costs money. Things that cost money are often viewed as being more effective, it's our way of protecting ourselves from the feeling that we've been ripped off.

I think homeopaths have a valuable role in treatment though, because let's face it we can all do with a bit of listening and TLC now and then. But it's very wrong to tell people it will cure serious illnesses, and patients should only ever been seen if they've already consulted a doctor about the symptom, to make sure it's not serious. And it should only be offered to people who can spare the cash!

EllieArroway Mon 10-Jun-13 09:25:43

Well, CrumbledWalnuts - please feel completely free to drink a useless bottle of water instead of any modern medicine next time you're seriously ill.

YANBU, I'm not sold on homoeopathy by far, though I do believe that a numer of the herbal medicines work

As Tim Minchin put it - we have a name for herbal/alternative medicines that have been proven to work. It's medicine.

seeker Mon 10-Jun-13 09:27:27

And it shouldn't be caught up in magical thinking.

We need a new name for it. Counselling isn't appropriate- Listening Therapy?

Like that Monty Python sketch where you pay for a 15 minute argument.

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 09:32:47

Ellie - that was mine smile = and really? You think killing hundreds of people and making hundreds more seriously and permanently ill while pretending to care for them is merely "not perfect"?

How ridiculous.

And the links are from the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Guardian and the Independent. There are plenty more - I could go on and on.

It would be better if people focussed their anger on the real problems. It might give a nice warm feeling to be scientifically right on the nose, and it's very easy to sneer, but it would be better to actually challenge the problems that are actually killing and harming people. That is a lot, lot harder.

And I didn't say homoepathy works - I said it harnesses the mighty placebo effect allow the body time to heal itself. I think perhaps you didn't read that part of my post either.

EllieArroway Mon 10-Jun-13 09:32:52

Oh, and for anyone who thinks homeopathy is "harmless" - HERE

Absolute bullshit will always hurt someone somewhere. Modern medicine would have saved most, possibly all, of the people on this list.

Wowserz129 Mon 10-Jun-13 09:34:02

Homeopathy is total rubbish! It makes me mad when I think about the utter crap some homeopaths are allowed to say to people about curing cancer etc... hmm

ImagineJL Mon 10-Jun-13 09:37:34

crumbled you're wrong about doctors not liking homeopathy. We love it. It gets hypochondriacs with self-limiting or non-existent medical problems off our backs. They give patients the time and attention we aren't able to, given that we see so many more people. What we don't like is homeopaths who claim to be able to treat actual illnesses, so patients get more and more ill and eventually see us when they're really poorly. That doesn't benefit anyone.

Some of them also take medicines made by pharmaceutical companies, to varying effect

Homeopathic 'remedies' are made by pharmaceutical companies too. Don't kid yourself that people are making them out of the kindness of their hearts. They are made to make money out of the gullible

EllieArroway Mon 10-Jun-13 09:38:36

You think killing hundreds of people and making hundreds more seriously and permanently ill while pretending to care for them is merely "not perfect"?

What a lot of bollocks.

Medicine is a human endeavour, like science. It's crap, but OF COURSE it goes wrong sometimes. But it tries to get things right, and largely succeeds.

Do you have the vaguest idea how many people it has saved over the past 200 years? How many diseases it has eradicated?

It is a trillion times more effective than stupid, pseudo-medicine that panders to dumb people.

I'd bet big, big money that the moment your life is threatened or you're seriously ill, it is modern medicine you'll rely on. This is always the case with "big pharma" conspiracy theorists.

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 09:39:39

I'm sorry - after dismissing the Daily Mail did you really just link to that site? What on earth are its credentials? Does it have any? It didn't seem to from your link. Can you clarify?

Are you seriously saying the hundreds and probably thousands of people killed by conventional care are some kind of acceptable sacrifce to "modern medicine"? Really? Because they don't seem to bother you at all?

"Makes you mad" wowser? I can think of a lot worse things in health care to infuriate you.

seeker Mon 10-Jun-13 09:40:58

"Are you seriously saying the hundreds and probably thousands of people killed by conventional care are some kind of acceptable sacrifce to "modern medicine"? Really? Because they don't seem to bother you at all?"

Nope. Not saying that. Nor is anyone else of this thread.

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 09:41:18

Bless you Imagine - and you don't mind at all when they resolve problems you simply can't? Which all your drugs and expertise fail at? Homeopaths do gt them off your hands don't they? Off to the homeopath and never back to you - because their problem is resolved.

seeker Mon 10-Jun-13 09:43:48

"Bless you Imagine - and you don't mind at all when they resolve problems you simply can't? Which all your drugs and expertise fail at? Homeopaths do gt them off your hands don't they? Off to the homeopath and never back to you - because their problem is resolved."

I'm sure she's happy to concentrate on the seriously ill, and leave the homeopaths to deal with the conditions it works best for- mild back pain, bloating, feelings of general unease and mild anxiety.

EllieArroway Mon 10-Jun-13 09:47:03

Are you seriously saying the hundreds and probably thousands of people killed by conventional care are some kind of acceptable sacrifce to "modern medicine"? Really? Because they don't seem to bother you at all?

No, I'm not. I haven't even implied it.

EllieArroway Mon 10-Jun-13 09:54:47

Oh - and on the website I linked to, click on the "Where is the science?" link and read the scientific papers.

Snorbs Mon 10-Jun-13 09:55:10

Homeopathy is not risk-free. It can harm people. It does this by encouraging them to stop or avoid taking proper medicine in favour of bullshit.

If you're basically well and are just a bit worried about a minor rash then, sure, go along to your friendly homeopath and get charged a lot to have someone in a white coat go "There, there" at you and sell you some sugar pills. There are cheaper ways of achieving the placebo effect but what the hell.

Many homeopathic doctors claim that their sugar pills can prevent malaria (as Simon Singh reported). How dangerous is that?

Even worse, people take this bullshit for cancer because they're told that it will cure them without the nasty side-effects caused by chemo- or radio-therapy. And they die as a result.

Moreover, encouraging people to ignore science in favour of woo-woo bollocks diminishes society as a whole. Steve Jobs would likely still be alive if he'd had his pancreatic cancer treated promptly rather with wasting months on special diets, acupuncture and herbal remedies.

Yes, medical science makes mistakes as do doctors. But there is no correlation between "Medical science makes mistakes" and "Therefore we should ignore science entirely".

As was written in the Telegraph a while back, if we can prosecute someone for selling fake bomb detectors, how are homeopaths allowed to stay in business?

ImagineJL Mon 10-Jun-13 10:03:09

Yes crumbled I'm thrilled when homeopaths help. As I say, they have a role, for people with enough money to pay, and minor self-limiting conditions, or as Seeker says, general unease and such like.

Life is hard and we can all do with some help at times, which is why we have spa days and relaxing holidays.

But it's important to remember that all the chat and attention in the world won't help ischaemic heart disease or diabetes or pneumonia, nor will a teaspoon of water with a molecule of granite in it, and any homeopath who says otherwise is very harmful.

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 10:08:42

Ellie - bollocks? You said it "wasn't perfect" as a direct response to links showing the death and harm caused by conventional care. That was something you said.

And how many diseases has it eradicated, exactly? Have you got a list? And how many people has it harmed along the way? Seeker says no one is describing the harm caused as a sacrifice to the modern medicine and its progress - I think your posts come dangerously close.

You can bet what you like. I don't use homeopathy at all and probably never will. But when people fulminate to their hearts content about it while passing off serious harm and death as "not perfect" - well I think it's gullibility or hypocrisy.

DoesBuggerAll Mon 10-Jun-13 10:09:08

The thing is, homeopathic products are great value. You only have to buy a remedy once and you've got a lifetime supply. When the bottle is 90% empty, simply top it up with water and shake a few times and you've got another batch. If you are particularly enterprising you could make more of it and sell it.

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 10:11:02

Imagine - people go to homeopaths with chronic conditions which conventional and pharmaceutical care hasn't helped over many years. Homeopathy - by what function I don't know, placebo and listening care - often manages to resolve them. What kind of GP dismisses such people as hypochondriacs?

ImagineJL Mon 10-Jun-13 10:11:13

Ha ha yes that's true doesbuggerall, and of course it gets more effective each time it's diluted!

Crumbledwalnuts Mon 10-Jun-13 10:13:19

Ellie - there's a scientific paper for Mrs Trellis of North Wales who says a homeopath told her friend to stop taking her asthma medication and her friend died? Is there really?

DystopianReality Mon 10-Jun-13 10:13:57

So, lets go back to an era where there were no antibiotics, no cure for polio, diptheria, smallpox, TB no anti retrovirals for Aids, no treatment for heart disease, lung diseases or cancer, just sugared water.
It is a 20/21st century, western indulgence to eschew conventional medicine and I bet we'd all be running for it if it were all taken away from us, don't you think?

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