ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
To want to shake this woman(36 Posts)
Was sat next to a woman at church this morning who I vaguely know. Last time I saw her she was hugely pregnant, and now she had a baby of a couple of months with her. An absolutely gorgeous one, so I dutifully cooed over it, and congratulated her.
This is her fifth child, all of which are about a year apart. So she has children aged about 4, 3, 2, 1 and 0. So I (cheekily) asked 'are you all done now?' And she, with a heavy sigh, answered 'I did hope so.' I guess I probably raised an eyebrow because she then quietly said that she thought she might be pregnant again.
She said, I keep telling DH to 'use something', but he doesn't like it. I asked if she hadn't thought of 'using something' herself, and she said her dh didn't want her to, so she couldn't. I said, well surely you're going to end up with about 12 kids then, and she muttered probably, but I really hope not.
Her dc are all clearly very cared for, clean, well dressed, well behaved, and her dh is very hands on with them. But as she said, that's just sundays, the rest of the week he's working long hours, and she said she's exhausted with it all.
It's not a catholic church, so no teachings against contraception, but even if the reasons were religious, she didn't mention them at all during the conversation. I did weakly attempt to tell her that she should tell her husband more of how she felt, but I felt really uncomfortable since I hardly know her. She then reiterated that she hoped her husband would 'do something' about the situation and then moved on. i just wanted to scream and shake her. The very thought of feeling that you've got to have untold amounts of children made me feel very depressed.
Hmmm. Years ago, I read a book called "Tiger Country" by a woman called Penelope Rowe.
The main character is a girl, in a large family of boys. Her father is deeply authoritarian - using religion as a means of control, really. More charitably, you might say he was using a type of interpretation and practice of religion to underwrite his authority.
Part of that authority included control of his wife's body.
Throughout the book, the wife apparently consents to everything that the father demands, including numerous pregnancies (and physical and psychological abuse of the daughter). Finally, she speaks to a vicar/priest (I forget which) who tells her that God has surely been satisfied by her work in the area of procreation and she should go home and tell her husband that. Which she does.
It is, I suppose, her act of rebellion, but it is sanctioned by the authority both husband an wife purport to follow.
The point of this extended anecdote is two-fold: firstly, a vicar may not necessarily be old-fashioned or monolithic in his/her interpretation of the bible but is quite probably fairly pragmatic. Especially if you are in a liberal congregation, the response may be a fairly liberal, low-key but effective intervention. Even in a more traditional community, the response is likely to be less laissez-faire than you might think. Secondly, the fact that things may be expressed in religious discourse doesn't make them wholly an issue of religion.
I am a little confused about your response. You say that she didn't mention religion/God at all. Yet your response - your anger with her; your reasons for not responding - are all couched in religious discourse (a concern with what god/religion may say about contraception) - which, again, you say this woman didn't mention. I find that odd.
No they're not, I'm obviously expressing myself badly.
I actually think it's incidental that we were in a church, but I know that they're christian so it seems reasonable to consider that as motivation. most people who have responded on this post have mentioned the religious aspect so I've tried to respond to them on that point.
I think I'm also struggling with the fact that it might not be religiously motivated, because that would mean that he's a controlling asshole and she's an extreme doormat for no reason at all.
If someone is a controlling asshole it's a little unfair to say their partner is 'an extreme doormat for no reason at all', especially on a site where many, many people have spoken about their difficulties in 1. knowing that they are being abused in the first place 2. feeling able to leave even when they do know.
It's not what you bargained on hearing. If you feel able maybe chat to her a little more and let her talk if she wants and gently point out that she does not have to accept his behaviour. If you don't feel able that is also fine. It is not your responsibility.
That she is effectively getting pregnant within a few weeks of giving birth each time makes me I can't imagine there are many women keen on loads of sex so soon after every single childbirth. If a woman wants to use birth control and her partner refuses to let her I would class that as abusive.
Yes, that would probably be my interpretation.
The "doormat" thing might easily come about from prolonged abuse, possibly low-level at first, rising in intensity. I find "doormat" a bit <eek> as a description, to be honest. I f she has lost control of her body to this degree, been alienated from her physical integrity to the extent you suspect, "doormat" is just the very most wrong place to start thinking about what's going on.
Passivity to the degree that you seem to be describing may well be an indication of quite thorough abuse. she might be so alienated from her self/feelings that she may no longer really have a language to convey how she feels about her situation. she may not believe herself to be in an abusive position, consequently that will prevent her from articulating her situation as such. And that may be true even if her emotions are screaming at her to be heard to be saying something different. Which is a horrible thought, but it's not uncommon if you read the "Relationship" board on here.
Or it might be none of that. she might be OK with all this, if a little miffed about particulars.
Only you really can know, because you were the one she spoke to.
I X-posted with WafflyVersatile. I (v. much) agree with what she has written.
"Finally, she speaks to a vicar/priest (I forget which) who tells her that God has surely been satisfied by her work in the area of procreation and she should go home and tell her husband that. Which she does".
I just had to laugh at this.
But OP, if anyone asked me the question that you did I would have wanted to shake them for asking such a personal and intrusive question.
Sounds like she's stuck with an abusive bastard, to me, taking it at face value.
Maybe she felt she could say those things to you as a stranger, when she didn't feel safe to talk to someone she knows.
Or maybe she's come across a few people asking her intrusive questions, and just decided she'd make something up.
Unless you befriend her, you'll never know.
Hmm. Well I won't/can't use contraceptions because the hormones in them send me doolally. So if we want to protect against pregnancy we have to use condoms something which neither of us are very good at (we end up feeling like awkward teenagers! Aren't they just so awkward and easy to forget 'in the moment' too?) We also have had 3 kids a year apart but definitely NOT wanting another yet. So we've had to turn to NFP.
It's hard because i'm still bfing the youngest so I don't have steady periods yet but it's basically tracking when ovulation is and avoiding it like the plague. Tbh I don't really let my DH near me anymore full stop and this is the longest between pregnancies I've got (9 months!) so I think celibacy might be the answer, not that my DH is a fan
However with her it sounds like her DH is calling the shots.. If she is happy with contraception she could just go get the injection or coil herself or take the pill, in secret if she has to although sounds a bit of a controlling and unhappy marriage if she'd have to hide her contraceptive...
Could also be 'God' perhaps, the old fashioned view that it's against God's plans to prevent pregnancy. It was fairly nosey of you to ask in the first place though, I hate getting asked that dreaded question 'having anymore?', none of your business.
I would say that if the woman has asked her husband to use condoms and when he said no asked to use female contraceptives which he also refused then he is pushing her into a situation where she is having sex that she is not comfortable with and that, in my eyes, is rape.
It sounds like the husband is abusive and controlling, I'm not really sure how churches work, but could you speak to the vicar?
I don't think I'd shake her. Offer her a cup of tea and some information on the fact she can use contraception without her husbands knowledge.
It might be worth another conversation with her,telling her that you've been thinking about her situation and are worried. Ask her if she is mildly or really unhappy about the situation and encourage her to talk to the Gp for advice about contraception/talk to the vicar/womens aid etc, if necessary.
I wouldn't get too embroiled but try to get her to talk to relevant authorities to help her. She may not have questioned her husbands control before. Give her/make sure she has the tools and knowledge that she doesn't have to just put up with it, if she doesn't want to, and then it's up to her.
Don't just walk away. The fact she told you so much information says to me, that she's crying out for help.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.