To think that there is no good in these kids future

(174 Posts)
PatPig Fri 10-May-13 13:31:26

Story here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22462545
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2322073/Smirk-teenage-thug-moments-killing-OAP-handbag-Pair-15-year-olds-including-father-jailed.html

Age 14 and 15 they killed an old lady to buy Nike shoes, they will serve 3 years in a young offenders institute, one boy has already fathered two children, both have convictions for assaulting their parents, there's violent burglary, kidnap and assault.

AIBU to think they will be let out in 3 years having spent several years in the company of similarly unpleasant teenagers to spend the foreseeable future committing more crime and causing more misery?

Goal Sat 11-May-13 10:18:11

Agree re mental health. IME cp thresholds are ludicrously high and health education and the police frequently make referrals only to be told that things aren't bad enough. What percent of severe cp cases would you say actually have a GOOD long term outcome?

I also don't agree that children should suffer because of their parents, but I don't believe that you can always identify who will suffer and to what extent. I know many people from middle class and above backgrounds who have MH and emotional health problems, because of their parents. Some arguments are pointless, because like it or not, we have the Human Rights Act.

Dawndonna Sat 11-May-13 10:29:04

1) Don't apologise when I'm told to.
2) Don't ever apologise to eugenecists.
3) Which bit of 'I have read the link, I fully understand it, the figures have been demonstrated to be wrong' Do you not comprehend?

It difficult to measure a "good outcome". I live in Liverpool, as I said a rough part, I grew up here. Life here is very different than in other areas, or other places. We give people the autonomy to live however they choose to, this won't be acceptable to all. In my LA the thresholds are enough (other LA's differ), if education services mirror them, then the child has a chance of a good outcome. I don't want to live in a "Stepford" society. We have to take into account the emotional damage that is done to children when they are removed and their outcomes in Care. It is an on-going balance.

I believe that the world and in particular, our society works well, when it consists of different people with different lifestyles and opinions and we don't try to manufacture "the perfect Human Being" as it is a contradiction of terms, so let's leave it to nature and do what we can to make as many people's lives positive and productive, as possible. We have identified what isn't acceptable and we need to enforce that, whilst still respecting Human Rights.

Spero Sat 11-May-13 11:12:49

This isn't an argument about being on benefits means you can't bring up a child. Lots of people on benefits can and do a brilliant job in hard circumstances.

The problem is not parents on benefits, its parents with utterly chaotic lives, let down by their own parents in turn. Yes, they are usually on benefits because they are usually completely outside mainstream society and employment by virtue of criminal convictions and drug use.

I don't agree with eugenics but there has to be a better way than letting the current situation drift on. One client of mine had nine children in a row, luckily for the last 3 they were removed at birth so there may be a chance for them. The other six not so much.

It is not that social workers are reluctant to to remove children, it is that we have a whole framework of laws in place to give parents chances to parent and a whole lot of people who seem reluctant to accept that sometimes parents can be the worst things to happen to their children and removal needs in certain cases to be very swift and permanent.

Thè difficulty is, as ever, making the right decisions about when that is.

infamouspoo Sat 11-May-13 12:27:34

the SureStart Centres were a step in the right direction. But they are closing sad

Goal Sat 11-May-13 13:14:33

Dawndonna - you clearly got me confused with another poster on this thread hence your slightly ranty tone about benefits, which I did not mention at all. It's a shame you are unable to acknowledge that. I am pleased you have read the link, I thought it was pretty clear in its rebuttals, you have chosen to overlook.

Birds once again how many parents on he cp list with "different lifestyles" would you leave your kids with?

Dawndonna Sat 11-May-13 13:54:34

Goal
Happy to apologise about the benefits stuff. Sorry.
Will also pm you.

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 14:59:46

There is no other word for them, they are scumbags! Mugged two elderly people, showed no remorse. they even smirked about it. A nice lengthy prison sentence would be fitting to wipe te smirks off their faces

FreudiansSlipper Sat 11-May-13 15:03:14

what if you had heard they had been abused most of their life, in and out of foster homes would you still think they are scumbags or could you look at the bigger picture and see that they have themselves been victims and their anger and resentment, hurt, anger for themselves and others makes them the way they are

Goal Sat 11-May-13 15:56:23

Thank you dawndonna. Apologies likewise for my snidey tone.

Dawndonna Sat 11-May-13 16:00:58
pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 22:47:19

Yes I would Freud they killed a person and showed no remorse. There are plenty of others who have had shit lives who don't go around killing and mugging people. What's more they were not even sorry

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 22:48:17

The only people my sympathies lie with are their victims and their families

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 22:51:00

My three nephews and nieces for example were with a mum with severe mental health problems, and alcohol addiction. They witnessed things no child should ever see, and had to fend for themselves. They are now decent adults who who would never ever contemplate doing what these thugs have done

FreudiansSlipper Sat 11-May-13 23:02:19

no one is saying that everyone who has a a difficult childhood becomes a criminal

read a little on those that commit violent crimes how the vast majority have had terrible childhoods, it is not an excuse but it counts to the many reasons why they being failed leads to others being harmed, it's a cycle that that some without support struggle to get out of

There is also the issue of people having a mental illness, no remorse would suggest that but that is no remorse ever because they are unable to feel it

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 23:06:54

That Could provide an explanation but as you said does Noway excuse it. Can't some people just be plain nasty, there may not be mental health illness.

FreudiansSlipper Sat 11-May-13 23:13:11

I never said all criminals have mental health problems

Yes people can be nasty but there are many reasons why as so much evidence in criminal behaviour shows, though it is easier to just call people and evn worse children scumbags than actually bothering to try and understand the reasons why people act the way they do

pigletmania Sat 11-May-13 23:21:15

Well they are, they committed a dreadful crime and showed no remorse, smirking and feeling quite proud of themselves. There could be underlying explanations to their behaviour, or ter could be none. I am judging on the behaviour, ad ts vile and nasty

JakeBullet Sun 12-May-13 07:00:24

The issue with difficult childhoods is that a child needs at least one caregiver who can meet their needs emotionally. Even a parent with terrible mental health problems can parent effectively depending in the circumstances.
The other thing to look at is the care available in the very early years. Babies who are shown little affection and interaction do much worse in later life than those who are interacted with and shown affection. This is key as in those very early years there is so much brain growth going on.
Not all neglected or abused children will grow into violent teenagers and adults but the risks of them doing so are higher.
Of course the main sympathy has to lie with the victim and her family but if there had been intervention early enough in the lives of these teenagers this might not have occurred. As a society that is what we have to keep in mind...that some people do not and cannot parent and it's their children and eventually society which suffers.

pigletmania Sun 12-May-13 07:29:42

I agree jake, spot on

Ilikethebreeze Sun 12-May-13 08:57:13

Excellent post JakeBullet.

Ilikethebreeze Sun 12-May-13 09:00:22

Which leads me back to the subject heading of the op's.
It would be nice to think they can be rehabilitated,for them, and for society, but I dont think their chances are good.

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