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To think that there is no good in these kids future

(174 Posts)
PatPig Fri 10-May-13 13:31:26

Story here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22462545
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2322073/Smirk-teenage-thug-moments-killing-OAP-handbag-Pair-15-year-olds-including-father-jailed.html

Age 14 and 15 they killed an old lady to buy Nike shoes, they will serve 3 years in a young offenders institute, one boy has already fathered two children, both have convictions for assaulting their parents, there's violent burglary, kidnap and assault.

AIBU to think they will be let out in 3 years having spent several years in the company of similarly unpleasant teenagers to spend the foreseeable future committing more crime and causing more misery?

boschy Fri 10-May-13 14:40:02

oh its such a tough one. Clearly they have had horrible lives in order to behave like this... but they just cant be allowed to continue to do it, can they?

I was at a talk recently about Children in Care in education, and what came through was just how tough it is for these kids. Given the right intervention, the right help, good pastoral support at school etc etc they can make it.

But on the other hand, if some little shite murdered my 82 yo mum I would be at the head of the lynch mob and dont believe I would feel very forgiving.

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 14:42:33

Anyone who has even the slightest knowledge of prisons, young offender's institutions or top security hospitals will tell you that the 'lap of luxury is a very foolish and inaccurate description. It's the kind of idea promoted by people who know nothing about this at all.

posh - we are talking about the link DawnDonna posted regarding a prison in Norway where yes, they are living in the lap of luxury.

I've worked with young offenders. Some of them had committed pretty nasty crimes. The crimes these children committed were evil, no doubt about it.

Just because it was interesting to me, here are the things that I noticed in years of working with 'scumbags'. When you went through their lifeline, there was, more frequently than not, a bereavement. Mother, father or sibling. I haven't seen a lot of discussion about that in offending circles but it struck me.

Also, walking into a classroom with them... 8 of them could create more bedlam than 30 in a classroom outside. Not the same with the female offenders at all. Very obviously, there were massive levels of learning issues. FASD, ADHD and so on. When they were given learning support (only inside of course) they all did very well.

Lots of self harm. They don't just not care about other people's pain, they don't care about their own. Drugs, drink, cutting, suicide attempts, unsafe sex you name it.

I'm not saying any of this justifies extreme violence. What I am saying is that these children don't some to this like your children would. They have already suffered so suffering is unlikely to change them into upstanding members of society.

BTW, I'm biased. One young offender saved me from, at the very least, severe burns, possibly I could have died.

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 14:55:23

If you read the link about the Norwegian prison, there are a lot of positive outcomes in terms of re-offending rates, etc. Unless of course, Betty, you think our UK system - three men kept in Victorian cell designed for one - is effective as it is.

Would you like any members of your family to go to prison, if they commit a crime?

Yes of course....if a member of my family commited a crime that warrants a custodial sentence then of course. I wouldn't like it obviously but you know the saying.....if you don't want to do the time............

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:00:43

A judgemental phrase that helps no-one, in terms of prison reform. Going by that logic then inhumane, ineffective punishment without any form of rehabilitation involved is acceptable.

Well, if you don't agree with the prison system where would you suggest putting people who murder old ladies for their purses and such? Seriousy, what do you think should happen to them?

meglet Fri 10-May-13 15:03:43

I'm more interested in how heartbreakingly shite their childhoods were and how failed they were by their parents. And how failed they were by their own parents.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:08:11

But they didn't murder an old lady for her purse. The took her purse. The result was she ended up dead, but it wasn't the intention. Yes it was wrong. Yes they were undeniably stupid, violent and wrong. However, it wasn't the intention.
How does putting them in the uk prison environment prevent them from reoffending?

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:08:35

Believing that our present system needs to be reformed is not the same as 'not believing in the prison system'. Of course the public needs to be protected from dangerous people of any age. There should also be an element of punishment, in respect to the victim(s) and to uphold what is right and wrong. But the present system does not work. I actually believe that people can change and should be given a chance to, at some point in their lives - especially when crimes are committed at a such a young age. So any custodial institution should offer education, appropriate therapy, work opportunities, good basic hygiene, exercise. I guess that makes me a 'do-gooder' by some people's standards.

HaveToWearHeels Fri 10-May-13 15:10:59

Yes the problem goes back to the parents but then again our system fails them there too. The parents of such children have probably had children removed and returned, removed and returned. I believe if a child is taken away for proven abuse then there are no second chances and any future children should be removed also. Childrens lives are fragile and should not be messed with by anyone, how many do gooders insist children go back to abusive families because the parents are now reformed ?

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:13:01

Not all problems are caused by parents.

how many do gooders insist children go back to abusive families because the parents are now reformed It's not do-gooding. it is the heartbreaking knowledge that a bad family is frequently better than foster care and children's homes. The truth is that once you have an abusive family, there are no great possibilities. Very early adoption might work but how on earth do you do that?

PatPig Fri 10-May-13 15:19:40

Dawndonna they pushed an old lady over for money. This is not an ambiguous scenario like two men brawling in a pub. If you push old people over they will die, very often.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:24:29

I agree Pat. But it was still not the intent.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:27:16

Not all problems are caused by parents.

Indeed, one of the most violent men I have ever come across (rehabilitated btw), had been raped for five years by boys in his year. From year six to year eleven. He was the scholarship boy, so deserved it.
angry

sad Dawndonna

I do wonder if people would be so back and white about it if they had heard the life stories I have heard. People locked in attics because they were a stain on the family, 5 year olds thrown out of the house alone to wander the streets, rape, abuse, bereavement, violence, fear.

*black and white.

Dawndonna Fri 10-May-13 15:33:15

No, MrsTP it's easier to shut your eyes and ears when sitting in judgement!

PoshPaula Fri 10-May-13 15:34:54

And, Terry, parents who have desperately tried to keep their children from harm/harming others but have never received support from either the state or their peers in how to do so. Then have watched their child disappear into the system.

FasterStronger Fri 10-May-13 15:38:13

there are schools in the UK where 10% of the children either have social workers or are thought to be at risk as they come to school unfed and or dirty.

if you have large numbers of children growing up in these circumstances, some will turn to violent crime.

no one ever cared for them, so why should they care for anyone?

Ilikethebreeze Fri 10-May-13 15:38:16

Can I ask, MrsTerryPratchet, [and i think if I remember correctly, you live in Canada], how much help and training and support do the young people especially get in jails either there, or in the UK?

Absolutely. I've also worked in rehab so I have seen people come out the other side. Some never do, of course.

Ilike you're right. I've worked in the field in Canada and the UK. I have found that the youth correctional system is much better here in Canada. Much less focus on prison. More on rehabilitation and restorative justice. Education in the system here is great. There is an issue with racism and a racist system. A massive proportion of the children (and adults) in prison are First Nations. There seems to be less violence inside youth correctional facilities here. I worked in a very naice one though. Having been in the scary British ones, I know where I would rather be...

Homelessness is a crisis here with disabled, addicted and mentally ill people living rough with no support. It's a national shame. Mind you, the Tories are trying to get the UK up to this standard too. Shouldn't be too long now.

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