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to think we should ban non-vaccinated from preschool

(127 Posts)
BlackMaryJanes Tue 07-May-13 17:41:36

I saw this article today:

"Kids Who Haven't Been Vaccinated May Be Banned From Preschool"

...and I'm inclined to agree.

AIBU?

bigbuttons Tue 07-May-13 22:11:58

amber I agree. 5 of mine had measles last year, it wasn't an issue. I'd rather they had a good strong dose of it than the vaccine, now I know they really are immune.

Jellykat Tue 07-May-13 22:12:46

Amber i'm in Wales so am very interested, do you have a link re. the misdiagnosis?

hazeyjane Tue 07-May-13 22:12:54

The number of laboratoryconfirmed cases in the outbreak stands at 370 out of a total of 850 samples tested.

This was from the guardian, ambersocks, where does the figure of 8 confirmed cases come from?

bigbuttons Tue 07-May-13 22:13:00

but actually it is a lot worse than chicken pox as an illness. It's nasty, but short lived.

rambososcar Tue 07-May-13 22:13:56

AmberSocks - the BBC (2nd May) said, "The number of cases in the Swansea measles epidemic has risen to 1,039, an increase of 28 in the past two days."

That doesn't tally with your assertion that there were only 8 confirmed cases and over 200 misdiagnosed. I'm not being awkward, I have the same view as you on conditional vaccination and would eschew state education if it came into force, I'm just questioning the figures you've quoted.

ThePinkOcelot Tue 07-May-13 22:16:27

YABU. This is a free country is it not?! My children have been vaccinated BTW,

rambososcar Tue 07-May-13 22:17:22

"Hypothetical: There is A Disease doing the rounds. I am vaccinated, you are not. I am 99% safe from contracting The Disease. You are vulnerable.

Applying that logic, why should you be banned from playgroup? you cannot hurt me, I'm 99% invincible."

Search me, Holly, aside from the argument that we have a social, moral obligation to put the welfare of others' children (i.e. those who cannot be vaccinated) ahead of our own. <shrugs> It's not an argument which works for me, btw.

hazeyjane Tue 07-May-13 22:19:21

It remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally.

Measles vaccination resulted in a 71% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2011 worldwide.

From WHO

*As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis. For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it.

From the CDC

5madthings Tue 07-May-13 22:19:45

cotes has said up thread that the MMR and other vaccinations are not compulsory for school attendance in France Martha

infamouspoo Wed 08-May-13 11:08:03

surely being 99% invincible is good enough? People's risk perception is seriously skewed.

Blueskiesandbuttercups Wed 08-May-13 11:20:16

Staff may not be immune,there will be a lot of vulnerable babies around at pick up,if vaccinated although unlikely you can still get it,very bad for pregnant women.....

Finally sending an unvaccinated child to a closed in high germ zone(3 year odds not known for their hygiene habits) where there could be other unvaccinated children wouldn't be the brightest thing to do imvho.

Yanbu

CoteDAzur Wed 08-May-13 11:34:42

All true for fifth disease, against which nobody is vaccinated.

YABU - there are lots of reasons for not vaccinating. It is not just black and white!

ginnybag Wed 08-May-13 11:38:57

Holly - because the person standing next to you may not be able to be vaccinated, and the mother picking up at the door may be in the middle of immune-suppressing chemo, so that contracting a virus spread by the healthy-but-infected child could be fatal.

There's an argument for 'why should I put other people's health ahead of that of my child' which is fair enough, if a little 'I'm alright, Jack', but the flip of that argument is 'why should your child's health be any more important than mine?'

It's a minefield.

The easy way to think of this is to imagine a viral outbreak as a flood and immune people - whether immune naturally or created so - as flood barriers. The more barriers, the less the flood damage. If the gaps are small enough,the virus can't get out and spread and grow, and eventually, hopefully it dies altogether.

But, not enough barriers, and there's water everywhere, which is bad for everyone - and that's what's starting happen with some virii and the uptake of immunization. Something will have to be done, because the NHS won't cope with the return of generalised measles etc, but I'm not nearly smart enough to work out what.

ginnybag Wed 08-May-13 11:40:37

CoteDAzur - do you happen to know if there's a viable vaccine for that, and what the spread rate and complication rates are?

Bear in mind that there's a lot more to deciding on mass vax programmes than it seems.

CoteDAzur Wed 08-May-13 11:46:43

No and I don't care enough to spend time researching it tbh.

What I do know is that staff in schools for small children are well aware of their immunity status for childhood diseases. It is simply hysteria to say all babies everywhere have to be vaccinated for school admission because some of the staff might be too dumb to realise they might catch a children's disease from the hundreds of children they mix with every day and have never thought of checking their immunity and vaccinating where necessary.

Chunderella Wed 08-May-13 11:58:16

The unvaccinated absolutely are a threat to everyone around them. This is because vaccines don't work on a small percentage of people, and some people are unable to be vaccinated. Of course, the immune, the very young and the medically unable to be vaccinated are also a threat, but there's nothing they can actually do about that. Doesn't make them any less of a threat, mind, and as I say this as the mother of a 9 month old. This is not a difficult concept to understand, and yet it comes up every single vaccination thread.

However OP, yabu. You would be punishing children who may already be at a health disadvantage due to being vulnerable to preventable diseases, for the decisions their parents make. That doesn't sit right with me. I understand your worry, I've got a baby who can't have the MMR for 3 months in a city with an epidemic. But I can't accept your proposal.

Chunderella Wed 08-May-13 12:00:59

I meant the immune to vaccines above btw, not the immune to the diseases themselves. Just realised that wasn't especially clear.

TheBigJessie Wed 08-May-13 12:10:18

We cannot deny education to children on the basis of their parents' decisions.

I have seen the situation Hecsy described, albeit on a slightly less extreme scale, and that was with parents who actively chose to home-educate, who weren't forced into it in any way.

* ImTooHecsyForYourParty *
Parent says no vaccinations. Child gets no education. Parent educates child themselves. -Is that your assumption? Well what if they don't? Child grows up unable to read, write or add up.

Future for that child without even basic skills? Is it fair to a child to deny them an education - a future, possibly the ability to earn their own living - because of a choice made by their parents at a time when they were totally unable to have any say in that decision even if they were capable of understanding it?

And unless the child is placed under house arrest, they'd be at the park, in the street, playgroups, in their friends houses, etc. So what does denying them an education help with?

I don't think punishing the child for the choice of the parent is ever the right thing to do.

RubyGates Wed 08-May-13 12:13:02

Again?
0/10
OP must try harder.

Chunderella Wed 08-May-13 12:30:37

That was also meant to say the unvaccinated were potentially a threat to everyone around them- obviously most people are fully vaccinated. I should really not MN whilst on hold. Saying that, even if it's only a couple of percent of people who can't be vaccinated or it doesn't work, that's still a colossal number of people.

Blueskiesandbuttercups Wed 08-May-13 13:02:21

Errr Cote I didn't have a clue I didn't have immunity to chicken pox or rubella(had it as a child and a jab for rubella),why would I?So all teachers should have blood tests to check immunity for risky diseases.hmm

Sorry but I think unvaccinated children should be banned for their own good let alone anybody else. Pre- schools are a hotbed of germs as it's often the first time many kids play in close proximity to kids and their hygiene levels are still poor.

Aside from that many mums don't ave a choice but to bring babies under the vaccinated age.

infamouspoo Wed 08-May-13 13:11:15

'The unvaccinated absolutely are a threat to everyone around them'

ONLY if they have the disease.
My unvaxxed son is in school today. Today he doesnt have measles, mumps, meniningitis, ebola, SARS, swine flu or any number of diseases. Therefore he is athreat to no-one.
Get a grip.
Unless he smacks into another child in his powerchair. But you cant vax against his erratic driving.

Blueskiesandbuttercups Wed 08-May-13 13:31:53

Today he doesn't,tomorrow he might.hmm

infamouspoo Wed 08-May-13 13:34:26

somehow I doubt it. But as I said, he cant be vaxxed for medical reasons but I really dont worry about the vaccine status of other children because he has this marvellous thing called 'an immune system'.
He's more at risk from dipsticks who send in kids with vomiting viruses and chest infections and that happens weekly.

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