To think this is unfair and discriminatory?

[Catsize]

We have a house. Mortgage has come to the end of its five year special rate and we are now on something much more expensive, so we want to switch.

Circumstances...

Civil partnership for six years. Have had a mortgage for 13yrs, partner has had one for 28yrs. Never missed a payment. Both have good jobs. I have been self-employed for 11yrs and have all relevant accounts, figures etc. partner went self-employed as a freelance journalist to look after our son after I took seven months off to have him etc. She is earning money.

We are fortunate to have 60% equity in the house.


Problem....

Because I had a baby and don't get maternity leave etc, my income dipped. It is rising again. It has been fairy constant for the past years, but dropped to half of usual on year end 2012. As soon as I went back, income was back to usual level.
Have tried to remortgage, but am getting turned down again and again as they will only look at most recent year end, as this was a drop in income.

They will not consider my partner's income at all because she does not have three years' accounts (would have been better with her continuing employment and putting child in nursery!). Naturally though, they take into account her car loan, credit cards etc.! I am deemed to have two dependents, even though that is not the reality.

Spent an hour on the phone to HSBC yesterday (who allegedly averaged last three years, in which case we still qualified just about) to be told I could be lent less than twice my income. Marvellous. No real reason given, but can only assume it is for the same reasons as the other companies -drop in income due to maternity leave so the computer says 'no'!

We appear to have hit a brick wall.

Just wondering if anyone else has experience of this? Any helpful mortgage companies out there?!

Have written to MP and government but would help to have experience of others.

Sorry this is rather long!

[Callisto]

Have a hunt around for new banks that are starting to pop up all over the place. Also, I hear the PO is going to start banking services. Have you tried Co-Op?

It is bad though, especially as the banks are meant to be lending money. HSBC are a law unto themselves though - they didn't need bailouts so they can lend to who they want. You may have better luck with HBOS?

[Catsize]

Post Office was one of the worst. As for HSBC, been a customer for 20 years! Will try the Co-op. and trying new banks is a good idea too, thank you. Just think the wider apparent discrimination needs addressing, and wondering if there are some Mumsnet troops I can rally!
Just getting a bit down about it. Need the good old fashioned days when you could sit around a table rather than have a computer make a decision (although that probably led to injustices too!).

[Callisto]

Have you checked Money Saving Expert? The forum there is great and you may get recommendations. They also may already be rallying troops about this issue.

[MammaTJ]

I am not seeing where discrimination comes in to it to be honest.

Banks aren't lending to anyone if they can help it.

[mumofweeboys]

Hi

Have u tried mortgage broker? They are more used to dealing with these senarios?

[TheToysAreALIVEITellThee]

Its not discrimination as they would be saying this to anybody in your situation, they would probably say it to me as my income has dropped to half of what it was

[fairylightsinthespring]

I agree they are being unreasonable to not look at the whole picture - a "computer says no" situation but not sure where I see the discrimination. The fact that your income dropped due to mat leave rather than anything else is irrelevant to the figures how they are looking at them, so not on that score and nothing to suggest that they are refusing on the grounds of civil partnership rather than marriage either.

[Catsize]

Hello again. Just to clarify, not suggesting there is a discrimination point re:CP rather than marriage, just relevant to circumstances when looking at mortgage etc. as marriage and CP create different financial liabilities re:the other partner.
In essence, my understanding is that pregnancy discrimination stuff is designed to ensure that you are not being treated less favourably than someone else by virtue of a pregnancy. So, for example...
If employed and have maternity leave, not a problem, as income is still 'X' for the purposes of application.
If I were a bloke in the same job, would not apply. Wouldn't have had the dip in income.
If my income had dipped because of financial climate etc, not a problem, as we are all similarly affected.
However, where the reason they are refusing to provide a service is pregnancy-related, I thought that that was where it got a bit dodgy.
It is likely to be a real problem for self-employed single mothers and couples where the woman (or the woman who takes maternity leave) is the higher earner and self-employed.
Plan to go to a mortgage broker, but just think that we shouldn't have to!
Appreciate your input, thank you. :)

[GetLippie]

But you're not being discriminated against because you were pregnant, it's because your income took a dip - if your income had dropped for any reason - any reason whatsoever - then you would have been treated the same way, I'm afraid.

[Catsize]

Thanks Getlippie. I see the two as intrinsically linked. If my income had dipped for reasons of illness, or economic climate etc., the same applies to everyone. Just think this situation bites different provisions. Whilst I think that there should be discretion where illness etc is concerned, it is not protected by law.

[CwtchesAndCuddles]

I don't se the discrimination either.

[WilsonFrickett]

Yes but in any situation if a person takes time off and their income dips, the outcome would be the same, so it's not discrimnatory. If you had a baby and your male partner then took 7 months off, his income dipping in the same way, the outcome would be the same. If the same man took 7 months off to look after an ill parent, or to travel the world, it would be the same outcome.

I know it's shitty though. I would definitely recommend a broker for a mortgage when one or both people are self-employed though.

[Chocovore]

You have not been discrimindated against because of your pregnancy. If you chose to, you could have legally returned to work 2weeks post birth to prevent the drop in income (not that many people choose to do that, obviously).

[ChairmanWow]

Hmmm, that is a bit weird. We moved house 6 weeks ago and extended our mortgage with HSBC. Although we are both in permanent employment I started mat leave for 12 months 2 weeks before the move. All they wanted was some pay slips. Obviously it makes a difference you being self-employed but then again there's no guarantee of me returning to work after my mat leave (though I will be).

I'd take it up with a manager perhaps. You're long-standing customers and they won't want to lose you.

[monniemae]

I would call a mortgage broker - London & County are great (free) and can advise you on who will for eg consider your partner's income after all....

[monniemae]

FYI we needed a fast mortgage AND my boyfriend was about to switch jobs and they could advise who would be fine about both. Similarly some want three years accounts, some don't; some don't like you on maternity leave, others don't care..

[Alwayscheerful]

HSBC are one of the cheapest and their rules are pretty strict. Lots of more flexible lenders with less stringent lending criteria.

I wonder which one of you was classed as the main earner (first named on the mortgage perhaps?) and which one was the secondary earner.

Could it possibly be the income multiples are the problem? eg main earner was for example 3.5 x income and the secondary earner was 1 x income?

I would enquire and then think about using a broker to get you thye best deal.

[WilsonFrickett]

chairman it's completely different for self-employed people. You have a job with a guaranteed salary to go back to, OP has a drop in income which is making them doubt her ability to pay the mortgage.

[sparechange]

Sorry, this is really not discrimination. And, rant incoming, it makes me a bit annoyed when that word is bandied around to apply to any situation where you don't get your own way, because it totally undermines actual cases of proper discrimination.

Have you tried an independent financial adviser, or mortgage broker?
I went to one for my last mortgage and they were great. Because they deal with a massive range of circumstances and situations, they generally have a good feel for which lenders are slow/fast at processing applications, which ones are really strict on income criteria and which ones have a bit of leeway.

Personally, I was advised against HSBC because they tend to advertise the cheapest rates then can't cope with the deluge of applications they get. Santandar and Northern Rock (which is now Virgin?) were supposed to be the better ones for taking 'non standard' borrowers (in my case they accepted a letter from my employer about a bonus, and lent based on that, even though I was new in the job and couldn't prove I would get it)

Hope you find something

[Oblomov]

We too went with London and County when our 5 yr fixed rate came to an end, a couple of months ago. I posted a thread just like you have. Dh had just started a new job and only had 2 months payslips and was still under probationary period.
All sorted. New 5 year deal is up and running.

[Mutley77]

I don't think this is discrimination either - it is the way it is and any dip in income would be treated similarly (for illness, pay decrease, redundancy, etc).

I think self-employed people have it particularly hard but then the level of risk is significantly higher so it makes sense really.

Agree with others that HSBC are rubbish on flexibility - they offered us a mortgage based on all of our circumstances (we were really long-standing, good customers) and then when we had offered on a house they cut the amount they would lend by about 50K, which was crucial to us at the time! Luckily an IFA easily found us a deal which meant we could proceed with our offer but it was an anxiety provoking time. In a v small competitive (to buyers) market we would have been lucky to ever get a house if we had needed to pull out from the house due to not having a mortgage approved when we said we had.

[Catsize]

Thanks everyone. chocovore, if I may say, your argument against me is probably the strongest. As I am self-employed, I didn't even have to wait two weeks to go back to work and could have gone back at 9am after a 23:15 birth (but I was quite ill so would have been rubbish! :) ). So yes, take your point.
There was a debate in parliament in 2011 about sex discrimination by banks, but not sure where it got to (eg women asking to borrow money being asked about plans re:family etc but men not).
Rarely (ever?) do I want to jump on the discrimination bandwagon.
As my dad said, it's actually a pants business decision on their part (to be fair, he didn't say 'pants'). With such equity in the house, you'd think they would take a flyer. I am in the legal profession, so although my income fluctuates a bit, it is fairly reliable. I am not much of a risk, if you like.
oblomov, and monniemae, willl check them out, thank you.
alwayscheerful, they won't consider my partner's income at all (which is not insignificant but a third of mine), as she has only recently become self-employed to care for our baby at home. So mine was the only one, and I was 'granted' less than 2x my income. Ah well....

[DoJo]

I am self employed and taking maternity leave has impacted my ability to earn as much as I did before my pregnancy, as I suspect it probably does for many. I think you are probably being discriminated against for being self-employed more than you are for anything else, and that's just one of the delights of going that route. Do you have any offers of work or contracts that you could show to demonstrate that your earnings have increased again? Show account statements to demonstrate that your earnings have gone back to previous level? I agree that a broker will probably be your best bet, and at least help you to stop wasting your time wondering what you need to demonstrate your position.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Unfortunately it is one of those things with regards being self employed. I was able to keep things going during the time after I had a baby, partly because dh and I are both s/e but his income dropped as his childcare responsibilities increased too.

[lisaro]

Unfortunate - but certainly not discriminatory. I wish people would stop using it as an excuse when it isn't so, otherwise genuine cases of discrimination will start to be ignored. Is it discriminatory to not give a mortgage to someone who has too little income to pay it? The lenders are being careful - about bloody time.