To admire MT's strength of character

(34 Posts)
Meandmarius Tue 09-Apr-13 11:15:07

Ok, politics aside here. It is clear that her policies completely divided the nation, she made some good decisions and made some mistakes. Has there ever been a PM who has completely united an entire nation?

However, no-one can deny her utter commitment and passion for her job and country and what she believed was right. Her strength of character and presence gave her and Britain a leading role on the world stage.

AIBU in thinking that being a strong leader, thoroughly committed to a set of beliefs was better than being an insipid one?

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 18:26:28

I admire the fact that she was hard as nails, and said what she meant and meant exactly what she said. You knew exactly what she stood for, and you knew where you stood with her.

It's not something you see much of nowadays, with politicians contorting themselves to be all things, to all people.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 18:08:28

cardibach

flatpack I don't think you are reading my posts. My point was exactly that sharing/kindness etc are ham traits, yet right wingers abandon them outside the home.

I am. My point is that right wingers don't abandon them outside the home. They practice them with far greater assiduity than the Left does. The reason that is the case is that right-wingers don't say "other people (ie the taxpayer) must pay to fix X, Y and Z." Left-wingers do. And what happens when the taxpayer picks up the tab is that, when the state does everything, people just say "I don't need to help my neighbours/village/town, I'll wait for the government to do it." That is corrosive.

With regard to South Africa, the world was indeed complicated (I was there, please don't patronise me) but the boycott of SA was pretty solid so others obviously saw that as clear cut.

It's funny how so many people think I'm patronising them. It isn't my intent. However so many people seem to be so ignorant and forgetful, I find it's best to remind people of the reality of the world we lived in.

'Refs under the bed' might scare you (why?) but clearly weren't MT's biggest concern.

Assume you meant 'reds'. Refs under the bed would frighten me. 10,000 nuclear warheads pointed at the UK didn't ever give you a moment's pause for concern?

Why weren't they her biggest concern? She backed Pinochet because he was anti-communist. She backed SA and Rhodesia because they were anti-communist. You only need to look at her speeches to know that socialism and its wicked influence was her biggest concern. It was also her greatest victory.

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 17:36:18

flatpack I don't think you are reading my posts. My point was exactly that sharing/kindness etc are ham traits, yet right wingers abandon them outside the home.
With regard to South Africa, the world was indeed complicated (I was there, please don't patronise me) but the boycott of SA was pretty solid so others obviously saw that as clear cut. 'Refs under the bed' might scare you (why?) but clearly weren't MT's biggest concern.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 09-Apr-13 12:27:39

YANBU.

The fact that she was a woman that got to the top over thirty years ago has to be admired, even if nothing else about her is. No one can argue that wasn't a huge achievement.

Feminine Tue 09-Apr-13 12:20:10

trash smile

Ah well, we can agree to differ eh feminine grin

My official opinion of MT is that she betrayed her sex on behalf of her class, killed the country from the inside, and even now we're suffering her legacy.

ParadiseChick Tue 09-Apr-13 12:14:27

lay you clicked on a thread which clearly states what it's about just to complain about another thread being started!

[hmmm]

Feminine Tue 09-Apr-13 12:13:34

I don't think you are , I have no idea wink trash

I think your previous opinion was, however.

And I'm a geordie living in Newcastle. My mother voted for MT. She was a small business owner, and felt her policies suited her. I also run my own small business. The latest budget changes do suit me on a personal level, but that's exactly what they are designed to do. Separate society on a very basic level, and allow the very poor and vulnerable to fend for themselves - even when they can't.

It's just a perspective feminine There's no need to call me crazy. In fact that's rather rude and personal. Surely you can back up your argument with facts instead of resorting to name calling.

Shagmundfreud Tue 09-Apr-13 12:03:27

Yes - a conviction politician who refused to listen to voices of doubt.

There have been other leaders like that - Hitler, Chairman Mao, Stalin.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:53:45

cardibach

flatpack you do not have to be Looney to be left wing. In fact I would suggest you have to have some sort of delusion to be anything else. Left wing means helping others and sharing the good.

No it doesn't. A willingness to help others is a human trait, and certainly not applicable to any political ideology. Left wingers are certainly generous (with other people's money) and sharing (with other people's money) but to imagine that these traits are possessed solely by those who vote for left-wing parties is bizarre.

Isn't that what good parents teach their children to do? Play nicely? Share? Help those in need? Why do you change your view when you leave your house?

"It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation"

Margaret Thatcher on 'society'. That section is the bit the Left always cuts out of her statement on their being 'no such thing as society'.

Left-wingery tells people to cast their burdens on the state, and when that happens people don't care for each other. Interesting paradox.

I think we all understand the comparison. It makes the same point I did.

The comparison is between an elected PM and a murdering despot who is trying to start a nuclear war. It makes the excellent point that the Looney Left is alive and well and living in Islington.

LayMizzRarb Tue 09-Apr-13 11:53:32

MNHQ can you open a new category ? Margaret Thatcher threads. Everybody jumping on the bandwagon, starting a thousand different threads. How many angles can there be be on this? Yawn yawn yawn.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 09-Apr-13 11:48:47

Why is being stubborn essential if anything it can hold you back

If you can not see that you are wrong how is that a good thing when you lead a country

You can still be a strong person without your stubbornness getting in the way she was wrong at times we all are and at times why have to take a step back, she did not and had to be forced out by her own cabinet

Feminine Tue 09-Apr-13 11:48:12

trash

That is crazy!

I'm not comparing her policies to his flatpack but he's a man with utter commitment and passion for his job and country and what he believes is right. His strength of character and presence gives him and North Korea a leading role on the world stage.

Just saying.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:45:12

cardibach

I don't see it as strength of character. I see it as arrogant, pig headed stubbornness. Not good qualities. True strength of character requires doing what is right, not convenient (and before you suggest that is what she did, think about her support of apartheid because of her husband's business interests) and in admitting when you are working as well as taking advice form those who know better.

Firstly, let's deal with the SA smear. The world in the 1980s was more complicated than you acknowledge. There was a global struggle for power taking place. MT backed the SA government because it was a bulwark against Communism, just as she backed Iain Smith and Pinochet. Mugabe and Mandela were both Marxists, the Soviets fomented rebellion in Africa in order to destabilise pro-Western governments just as the Americans and British did against pro-Soviet governments. It wasn't about 'business interests', it was about the Cold War and the threat of communism.

Now you can argue that she shouldn't have done it, but at least argue honestly that you think she should have allowed SA to be run by a Soviet puppet government.

Secondly, stubbornness is essential in a leader. If you're PM, your cabinet consists of about fifteen people who all have massive egos and all think they're better than you and should be doing your job. If you're going to actually get anything done at all, you have to be prepared to be stubborn and ruthless. If you don't, we end up with a Cameron or a Heath or Brown government, with dreadful decisions made and then cancelled, and drift and a lack of focus on the needs of the country.

Thatcher thought she knew better than anyone else about everything and would not take advice or listen to others. David Mellor on This Morning talked about her putting Cabinet ministers down - he said it as though it were a good thing. It isn't. Nobody can run a country alone.

This simply isn't the case as anyone who has read either her biography or her autobiographies can attest. She wanted people to fight their corner. The most memorable incident I can think of off the top of my head was a minister who disagreed with Thatcher on a point of policy. There was a forthright exchange of views. The minister left. The next morning the PM summoned him and said "I have been thinking over what you said and you are right."

She was perfectly capable of taking advice and listening to others.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 09-Apr-13 11:40:31

Really hmm

Do you remember Geoffrey Howe her most loyal cabinet minister resigning and his speach after

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 11:37:37

flatpack you do not have to be Looney to be left wing. In fact I would suggest you have to have some sort of delusion to be anything else. Left wing means helping others and sharing the good. Isn't that what good parents teach their children to do? Play nicely? Share? Help those in need? Why do you change your view when you leave your house?
I think we all understand the comparison. It makes the same point I did.

Feminine Tue 09-Apr-13 11:37:30

YANBU to admire her.

I think she did many hmm things, but I admire her too.

Show me a decent politician please.

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 11:35:30

wrong not working
Bugger. My anger at this casting of thatcher as some sort of saint and the use of her death as a Party Political Broadcast for the Conservative Party is affecting my typing.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:35:06

My post was aimed at trashcanjunkie.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:34:40

And that's the sort of comparison that makes the thinking part of the population roll their eyes and wonder what stop on the Potty Express the Looney Left will be getting off at.

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 11:34:26

*pig headed

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now