To admire MT's strength of character

(34 Posts)
Meandmarius Tue 09-Apr-13 11:15:07

Ok, politics aside here. It is clear that her policies completely divided the nation, she made some good decisions and made some mistakes. Has there ever been a PM who has completely united an entire nation?

However, no-one can deny her utter commitment and passion for her job and country and what she believed was right. Her strength of character and presence gave her and Britain a leading role on the world stage.

AIBU in thinking that being a strong leader, thoroughly committed to a set of beliefs was better than being an insipid one?

YABU for starting another MT thread.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:21:24

I'd rather have a strong leader who believed in something and stood by it, even if I didn't agree with them. This wet modern politics boils my piss. Thatcher kept her core supporters and brought swing voters over to her. Modern politicians sit in the centre and hope that their core supporters won't walk off too soon.

Agree that we shouldn't have another MT thread but the other ones are the same old reactionary marxist BS written by people whose understanding of Thatcher is derived from watching a Ken Loach film and reading the Guardian. It'd be good to look at the value of political integrity and the lack of it today (although this really belongs in politics rather than AIBU in my view).

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 09-Apr-13 11:23:35

Surely you could have added that comment on one of the 20 million other threads on here.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 09-Apr-13 11:28:04

She was stubborn that id not always a good thing and lead to her downfall at times you have to look at the reasons why people do not agree with you and take that into consolation that is strength of character not just standing by what you think is right

She was wrong about the poll tax it cost her

thebody Tue 09-Apr-13 11:30:14

According to people who knew her though she was open to change her mind if the argument was persuasive enough.

Generally agree with flat.

Meandmarius Tue 09-Apr-13 11:30:16

I started it because there are a lot of negative and, I agree, reactionary threads here.

My point is a new angle on this, looking at her leadership qualities and strength of character.

It shouldn't be a surprise that such a major event has sparked a myriad of threads.

Change MT for Kim Jong An then see how it reads

IMO YABU

grin

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 11:34:04

I don't see it as strength of character. I see it as arrogant, pug headed stubbornness. Not good qualities. True strength of character requires doing what is right, not convenient (and before you suggest that is what she did, think about her support of apartheid because of her husband's business interests) and in admitting when you are working as well as taking advice form those who know better. Thatcher thought she knew better than anyone else about everything and would not take advice or listen to others. David Mellor on This Morning talked about her putting Cabinet ministers down - he said it as though it were a good thing. It isn't. Nobody can run a country alone.

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 11:34:26

*pig headed

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:34:40

And that's the sort of comparison that makes the thinking part of the population roll their eyes and wonder what stop on the Potty Express the Looney Left will be getting off at.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:35:06

My post was aimed at trashcanjunkie.

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 11:35:30

wrong not working
Bugger. My anger at this casting of thatcher as some sort of saint and the use of her death as a Party Political Broadcast for the Conservative Party is affecting my typing.

Feminine Tue 09-Apr-13 11:37:30

YANBU to admire her.

I think she did many hmm things, but I admire her too.

Show me a decent politician please.

cardibach Tue 09-Apr-13 11:37:37

flatpack you do not have to be Looney to be left wing. In fact I would suggest you have to have some sort of delusion to be anything else. Left wing means helping others and sharing the good. Isn't that what good parents teach their children to do? Play nicely? Share? Help those in need? Why do you change your view when you leave your house?
I think we all understand the comparison. It makes the same point I did.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 09-Apr-13 11:40:31

Really hmm

Do you remember Geoffrey Howe her most loyal cabinet minister resigning and his speach after

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:45:12

cardibach

I don't see it as strength of character. I see it as arrogant, pig headed stubbornness. Not good qualities. True strength of character requires doing what is right, not convenient (and before you suggest that is what she did, think about her support of apartheid because of her husband's business interests) and in admitting when you are working as well as taking advice form those who know better.

Firstly, let's deal with the SA smear. The world in the 1980s was more complicated than you acknowledge. There was a global struggle for power taking place. MT backed the SA government because it was a bulwark against Communism, just as she backed Iain Smith and Pinochet. Mugabe and Mandela were both Marxists, the Soviets fomented rebellion in Africa in order to destabilise pro-Western governments just as the Americans and British did against pro-Soviet governments. It wasn't about 'business interests', it was about the Cold War and the threat of communism.

Now you can argue that she shouldn't have done it, but at least argue honestly that you think she should have allowed SA to be run by a Soviet puppet government.

Secondly, stubbornness is essential in a leader. If you're PM, your cabinet consists of about fifteen people who all have massive egos and all think they're better than you and should be doing your job. If you're going to actually get anything done at all, you have to be prepared to be stubborn and ruthless. If you don't, we end up with a Cameron or a Heath or Brown government, with dreadful decisions made and then cancelled, and drift and a lack of focus on the needs of the country.

Thatcher thought she knew better than anyone else about everything and would not take advice or listen to others. David Mellor on This Morning talked about her putting Cabinet ministers down - he said it as though it were a good thing. It isn't. Nobody can run a country alone.

This simply isn't the case as anyone who has read either her biography or her autobiographies can attest. She wanted people to fight their corner. The most memorable incident I can think of off the top of my head was a minister who disagreed with Thatcher on a point of policy. There was a forthright exchange of views. The minister left. The next morning the PM summoned him and said "I have been thinking over what you said and you are right."

She was perfectly capable of taking advice and listening to others.

I'm not comparing her policies to his flatpack but he's a man with utter commitment and passion for his job and country and what he believes is right. His strength of character and presence gives him and North Korea a leading role on the world stage.

Just saying.

Feminine Tue 09-Apr-13 11:48:12

trash

That is crazy!

FreudiansSlipper Tue 09-Apr-13 11:48:47

Why is being stubborn essential if anything it can hold you back

If you can not see that you are wrong how is that a good thing when you lead a country

You can still be a strong person without your stubbornness getting in the way she was wrong at times we all are and at times why have to take a step back, she did not and had to be forced out by her own cabinet

LayMizzRarb Tue 09-Apr-13 11:53:32

MNHQ can you open a new category ? Margaret Thatcher threads. Everybody jumping on the bandwagon, starting a thousand different threads. How many angles can there be be on this? Yawn yawn yawn.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:53:45

cardibach

flatpack you do not have to be Looney to be left wing. In fact I would suggest you have to have some sort of delusion to be anything else. Left wing means helping others and sharing the good.

No it doesn't. A willingness to help others is a human trait, and certainly not applicable to any political ideology. Left wingers are certainly generous (with other people's money) and sharing (with other people's money) but to imagine that these traits are possessed solely by those who vote for left-wing parties is bizarre.

Isn't that what good parents teach their children to do? Play nicely? Share? Help those in need? Why do you change your view when you leave your house?

"It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation"

Margaret Thatcher on 'society'. That section is the bit the Left always cuts out of her statement on their being 'no such thing as society'.

Left-wingery tells people to cast their burdens on the state, and when that happens people don't care for each other. Interesting paradox.

I think we all understand the comparison. It makes the same point I did.

The comparison is between an elected PM and a murdering despot who is trying to start a nuclear war. It makes the excellent point that the Looney Left is alive and well and living in Islington.

Shagmundfreud Tue 09-Apr-13 12:03:27

Yes - a conviction politician who refused to listen to voices of doubt.

There have been other leaders like that - Hitler, Chairman Mao, Stalin.

It's just a perspective feminine There's no need to call me crazy. In fact that's rather rude and personal. Surely you can back up your argument with facts instead of resorting to name calling.

And I'm a geordie living in Newcastle. My mother voted for MT. She was a small business owner, and felt her policies suited her. I also run my own small business. The latest budget changes do suit me on a personal level, but that's exactly what they are designed to do. Separate society on a very basic level, and allow the very poor and vulnerable to fend for themselves - even when they can't.

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