Childcare costs- someone talk me through the outrage

(447 Posts)
Suzietwo Sun 31-Mar-13 15:00:54

Is it just me or does it seem a bit grabby of mothers to be getting cross about the change to child care rules?

I thought the rules were being changed to try and encourage people to work. Ie to give them more choice and be option generating aka A. Good. Thing.

But the stay at home mums voice in the media just sounds a bit self important.

Don't misunderstand me, I am entirely on favour of people and families making decisions which suit them. This isn't about that. It's about people being a bit....indulged? Make a choice, stick with it. The more choices which are available the better so if the gvnt can help (a different argument about whether they should) by offering money to assist people go to work, then fab. But don't demand it for making the choice to stay at home.

Goldenbear Thu 04-Apr-13 11:23:59

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Goldenbear Wed 03-Apr-13 20:24:05

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morethanpotatoprints Wed 03-Apr-13 20:23:19

Ah jellybeans, you have had a rough time over the past. I have no excuse for my behaviour but have likewise improved over the years. The older 2 went all through school and are well balanced for my peculiar behaviour. DD is 9 and H.ed but it has nothing to do with not letting go. smile

jellybeans Wed 03-Apr-13 19:48:32

'The thought of childcare when my dc were little literally made me sick'

This is the same for me with my younger 3. I had 2 stillbirths and miscarriages before them and struggled through life threatening pregnancies and births with multiple problems and high risk (50%) of further stillbirths. There is no way on Earth I could have left them. I did manage to leave them at pre school though (age 3 for a few morning sessions a week) and the older ones have been to cubs and all normal things. I am better as they get older. My first DC was in full time childcare and it was a very good nursery. All mature staff with kids of their own. DD1 hated it though which didn't help. I felt terrible the whole time! Yet when my parents had her for 3 months before that i didn't feel bad at all so a lot depends on whether the child settles, some don't although most seem to. I had no choice at one stage, I was a teenage mum and we were very poor when we started off so both worked. So I have 'seen all angles' really.

Good that people are agreeing though that every family is different and knows what is best for their own. And that can change over time also.

I am happy SAH for now but at some point I may well want to WOH or volunteer or maybe I won't. Good that we have options though to do as we wish.

morethanpotatoprints Wed 03-Apr-13 19:13:51

LittleChickpea.

Thanks for your lovely post, I'm not even sure we may disagree politically that much.
Yes I am happy as a sahm, but you never know that could change as our youngest 9 gets older. Obviously I wouldn't go into employment but may join dh in his business in some capacity. He has a music provision company/is a musician.
I suppose I have always known I had that get out clause if I ever needed it, and thats probably why I was happy as a sahm. I know it would be nearly impossible to get anywhere near a good income from an employer, after all these years. I do know I am lucky and tbh I only get annoyed at people who can only see £ signs rather than people and only their own point of view.
Will look forward to future debates.
Have you done the class survey on chat its quite funny, now?

LittleChickpea Wed 03-Apr-13 18:37:22

morethan. Wow.. But you are happy with been a SAHP now and that's what maters.

it must be hard enough without having your own sex gang up against you. And It also saddens me that as women we fought so long to have a voice and it is our own sex that condemn our personal choices.

Not sure how it was prior to you becoming a SAHP but through my career women have been much more distructive to each other than men to women. It's such a shame that we fought so long for the right to have a voice, to choose our own path and to sit round a board table but we then viciously belittle each other.

Politically in many ways Morethan we will have some major disagreements and I so look forward to our debates in the future but I believe we have found common ground on some other points. It's a shame we can't all be like that. smile

morethanpotatoprints Wed 03-Apr-13 15:04:00

LittleChickPea

I think its amazing that the people you mention above (I'm a complete peasant and don't know who they are) have obviously been very successful in careers and mothers too.
I think many sahm's who don't, should acknowledge the determination of women to be able to achieve what they want in life, it must be hard enough without having your own sex gang up against you.
A high powered career was never for me, although I did have a successful business in a male dominated industry before dc. I was an entertainment consultant, agent childrens entertainer and DJ, earning more than this brilliant 42k I hear so much about, over 20 years ago. smile
Of course I could have continued post dc, if I had put my mind to it, but tbh I really didn't want to. I can totally understand that some women need to work for their own sanity as well as money, this is not a bad thing and obviously makes them a better person for it.
My one objection is people who think there way is best and all people should follow their lead.
It also saddens me that as women we fought so long to have a voice and it is our own sex that condemn our personal choices.

LittleChickpea Wed 03-Apr-13 14:18:24

* Itotally agree in that there is no right way to do it, and we all make well thought out decisions regarding our dc, or so I'd hope anyway.*

totally agree with this too..

LittleChickpea Wed 03-Apr-13 14:16:38

WOHP does not for a moment mean we are saying anything is a substitute for loving parenting

Totally agree...

morethanpotatoprints Wed 03-Apr-13 14:15:51

Janey

Oh yes definitely a personal choice, there is certainly nothing wrong with woh when it suits yours and your families needs.
What I meant in my other post, which I really did not state eloquently smile

If all parents felt the same as I or others feel about childcare for their dc, then there would be nobody using childcare at all and they would all shut up shop. Meaning, of course childcare is good for many families and indeed good childcare exists. I think I'd have sent my dd to preschool at your mini zoo. Do your dc remember the animals still, I know they are older now.

However, it wasn't the bad childcare in my area that tinted my view as when our older 2 were little we lived hundreds of miles away from our present home. It was leaving them per se. I will even admit to that being a bit extreme actually, but I now know the reasons and it wasn't too bad. smile

I totally agree in that there is no right way to do it, and we all make well thought out decisions regarding our dc, or so I'd hope anyway.

janey68 Wed 03-Apr-13 13:58:37

morethan - you have written some eloquent posts and I completely respect your view that you wish to be a SAHM, but I think you are inaccurate in that post, because I would say as a WOHM I completely agree that there is no substitute for a loving caring parent. I don't think this is something WOHP disagree with. The point is, many WOHP are not expecting for, or looking for, a substitute parent.
What they are doing is weighing up everything - the fulfilment they get from various components of their life, being a parent, work etc, factoring in finances, pension etc,looking at the available childcare options and considering the needs of everyone in the family. They then make considered decisions AND (very importantly) regularly review them.

For me, working 3 days was the right solution. I would not have been happy working full time until my children were in school. But that does not mean mums who work full time are wrong... they are weighing up what is right for THEIR family.

I don't think it's mad that you felt sick at the thought of childcare... it was your feeling and genuine to you, who is anyone to judge that? But clearly, as you had such a strong emotional reaction, that was going to colour your view of going back to work at all. I didn't feel like that, I loved being with my children but equally did not want to let go of my career completely. So I looked at various childcare options. At this point, if the only available care to me had been the awful nursery local to you, then I would have had to re-think.

There are so many complexities to every individual situation that none of us can say a blanket 'this is the right way to do it'. None of us.

I just feel it's important to highlight that being a WOHP does not for a moment mean we are saying anything is a substitute for loving parenting, nor does it need to be. The fact is, many parents find working completely compatible with being a good, loving caring parent, and that fact needs to be respected as much as the fact that other parents find being at home right for them

LittleChickpea Wed 03-Apr-13 13:48:20

I am new to this forume (4/5 weeks). I don't expect people to agree with me and in fact it would be a dull place if they did. I respect peoples passion for their beliefs even if I don't agree with them. I hear/read a few comments which indicate that there may be a feeling of unfairness in the way the employment market approaches women. This unfairness seems to be relating to women not been able to get positions in more senior roles and/or have better earning potential etc. (putting aside ML/gap in employment aside). But at the same time there are a few people that then find it difficult that women (single or not) can be in senior positions and still have a happy/healthy/ballanced family life. Been able to balance the two is seen or comes across as been seen to be unbelieveable. Now my impression from some of the comments I have read may be incorrect and it would please me no end if my thoughts/perceptions are wrong.

If as women we can't celebrate or even accept that its possible for women to do this then how can we expect the wider industry to change their perception, if this exists. I celebrate women such as Dilma Rousseff (1 DC), Melinda Gates (3 DC), Jill Abramson (2 DC) and Christine Lagarde (2 DC), amongest hundereds of other sucessful women. But I do not expect others to think like me. I celebrate them because they prove that women can be high flyers and mothers. I have no issues with SAHP and good luck to them. Its not for me. Regarding this discussion my issue is complaining about childcare benefits not been SAHP.

morethanpotatoprints Wed 03-Apr-13 13:45:06

Stepaway

yes, I agree with you too. This is because I am a sahm for over 20+ years who believes there is no substitute for a loving, caring parent. These are my views and I understand that a wohm using childcare doesn't necessarily agree with that, otherwise they would be a sahm not using childcare either.
The thought of childcare when my dc were little literally made me sick, some may think this is mad, but its how I felt. You can't change the person you are whatever your views on working, childcare and raising children.

stepawayfromthescreen Wed 03-Apr-13 13:40:03

what, not why!

janey68 Wed 03-Apr-13 13:39:38

morethan - good point about Ofsted not being a great indicator. Same with schools... DH is a governor at our local Primary and it's been a real eye opener to see what Ofsted are actually measuring and judging on.
There is no substitute for visits - plenty of them - also any decent nursery will encourage parents to drop in at all times. You also need to ask the questions YOU want answers to, not rely on an inspection report

stepawayfromthescreen Wed 03-Apr-13 13:39:37

sigh.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything.
I'm not saying childcare is bad.
I use it.
Why I'm saying is that a good childcare provider is always inferior to a good sahp. There you go, bastard elephant is back on the thread again.

janey68 Wed 03-Apr-13 13:36:13

Of course children need their parents. And a keyworker isn't a parent substitute at all.

Sorry that you had a bad experience with your own kids in childcare when you worked, but you're projecting your own experience and feelings onto the rest of us.

Bottom line is: you felt when you worked that your children were getting a less good deal. Fine. You are being honest to admit that

I didn't feel the same about my children. So unless you're actually accusing me (and thousands of other women ) of being liars, then I can't really see your point.

Squarepebbles Wed 03-Apr-13 13:35:23

Hmmm not going by what she thinks at the moment,it'll be her call either way.

I have 2 sons too.

I want the same choices for them.

Chances are one of them will make me a grandparent if the gov haven't sucked all possibility of the lower and middle classes being able to afford children let alone provide what they think and know is the best for them by then.

morethanpotatoprints Wed 03-Apr-13 13:34:05

FFs there is good and bad childcare everywhere. I too experienced the bad, but know many people whose dc have had brilliant childcare.

Janey, I think your nursery sounded brilliant, a mini zoo going on there. As i posted before, I don't think ofsted is a good indicator of whether a particular provider is good or bad. We all want something different when it comes to childcare. If we can't find what we want, I think we are more likely to become a sahp if possible. That doesn't make that facility bad, it means it doesn't suit you. Although as previously stated our most local provider is on a par with Mrs Hannigans.

Suzietwo Wed 03-Apr-13 13:31:54

Projection. Your daughter may not want children. Or might go and join a commune

stepawayfromthescreen Wed 03-Apr-13 13:31:32

yeah whatevs, kids don't want or need their parents, keyworkers just as good, nay better. Whatevs.

janey68 Wed 03-Apr-13 13:27:49

Funny how you are quite happy to post but then accuse others of having too much time!!

Also from what you say, you were unhappy with the quality of care your children received when you worked, which has naturally coloured your view of things. That's fine to say so. What isn't fine is to assume that your own experience is true for every family.

If I had been going to work feeling that my children were getting a poorer deal than if I'd been at home, then I would have stopped working (or DH would). But this wasn't the case.

Squarepebbles Wed 03-Apr-13 13:27:22

I give a crap because the gov are trying to foist it on everybody.

I give a crap because the shit will hit the fan eventually.

I give a crap because I want my dd to have a choice and not have to leave her baby in daycare with a broken heart and a lifetime of regret.

Suzietwo Wed 03-Apr-13 13:25:26

What I genuinely don't understand in this is why you give a crap. You have your views and live your life accordingly. Other people have theirs. Why try so doggedly to prove your way is the right way. And be so closed indeed to alternatives. Life is diverse both in this country and others. E,brace it.

If anything you should thank those who use child care for creating fvcked up little bunnies for your pre ions daughters to date in their teens.

stepawayfromthescreen Wed 03-Apr-13 13:24:59

and at least I did paste from objective source material, LOL!!!

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