to ask what you make of this

(118 Posts)
kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 20:56:14

A transgender FTM aged 25 has been charged and jailed for sexual intimacy from two girls by fraud Tjat's important - not been charged with underage sex.

The girls in question were underage when they met "Chris" - and sex happened sometime in the relationship.

One of the girls then found out Chris was transgender FTM.

There are two articles. The Scottish Sun one is awful

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4830794/How-I-was-seduced-by-girl-who-said-she-was-a-boy.html

This is the other one.

www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/3151813

Is this fraud? At what point should a transsexual reveal who they are?
The Sun reporting is awful and I can imagine for young transmen, it's very worrying.

Like I said - Chris has not been charged with underage sex

Euphemia Mon 11-Mar-13 21:05:34

That's a really odd one! I don't see a reference to how old Chris claimed to be - would that have made a difference?

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 21:08:39

Does it? I know the girls were under 16 when they met but I think the relationship went on for a while to over 16. And Chris has not been charged with under age sex (despite what the Sun would have you think)

Does lying about who you are merit jail? (obtaining sex by fraud). How many men would be in the dock?

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 21:09:38

Maybe he should have been charged with underage sex?

It's easier to understand than sex by deception.

StuffezLaBouche Mon 11-Mar-13 21:09:58

Hang on, I thought the term trans gender applied when you had had the reassignment surgery? (I have skim read both articles but got the impression Chris hadn't had this yet.)
I don't know where I stand on this one. The Sun reporting is vile, really awful. But I do think people have the right to know he gender of the person they're about to have sex with.

LovesBeingWokenEveryNight Mon 11-Mar-13 21:12:03

Am I right that there is no age for girls? Therefore couldn't be underage as they are classing as a female?

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 21:12:39

Transgender applies at any stage.
But it can be very easy for young FTMs to pass easily with hormones and binding.

StuffezLaBouche Mon 11-Mar-13 21:16:37

Ok, so morally I disagree with what Chris did, yes. And while I also agree with men who shag women while claiming to be a rich executive, etc, etc, I think lying about gender is 'more wrong' which I know maybe doesn't make sense.

Also, I'm not sure how comfortable I am with the label of transgender being so freely applicable. Not sure why but it doesn't sit right with me. I'm not the most clued up on this area so happy to educate. Will be watching this thread with interest.

StuffezLaBouche Mon 11-Mar-13 21:16:56

Sigh -BE educated

FeckOffCup Mon 11-Mar-13 21:20:13

I can't get the articles linked to open on my phone, had the FTM transgender person had gender reassignment surgery yet?

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 21:22:35

Not yet.

It opens up a can of worms - especially for young trans people. I know some young transmen and women who pass very well and have not had surgery. At what point should they reveal their past? Obviously it will have to happen some time - but at what point?

And is not telling someone fraud? The two people had sex - apparently quite affectionate but Chris used a prosthetic.

FeckOffCup Mon 11-Mar-13 21:24:00

The use of a prosthetic without being honest about it makes me uncomfortable, I think people have a right to know what they are being penetrated by.

FarelyKnuts Mon 11-Mar-13 21:33:12

You ask at what point should they reveal who they are? I think possibly at the.point when sex is a possibility.

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 21:35:57

I think you're right - but I'm really unsure about the charge of obtaining sex by fraud. Did not even know it was a crime?

MummytoKatie Mon 11-Mar-13 21:51:43

I don't understand - why was it not underage sex? Had she turned 16 by then? I thought they met when she was 15 and had sex a week later?

Does it not count as sex as Chris didn't have male sex organs?

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 21:55:56

It opens up a can of worms - especially for young trans people. I know some young transmen and women who pass very well and have not had surgery. At what point should they reveal their past? Obviously it will have to happen some time - but at what point?

But if they haven't had surgery, surely it's their present and not their past?

Hence the deception?

FarelyKnuts Mon 11-Mar-13 21:57:32

I'm not sure kim, possibly they are using this as a test case?

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 21:57:54

And yes it is a crime because was a news story only a couple of years back where a woman had been posing as a lad, and had sex with a couple of girls who were left quite traumatised when they realised they'd been duped.

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 22:01:40

worra Gemma was charged with sexual assault plus 3 months for fraud.

But what about men who lie about who they are in terms of status - is that fraud?

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 22:07:44

I imagine it's only fraud if it's likely to be a massive part of how/why sex was obtained...and whether any long lasting emotional damage occurred.

I'm not sure bullshitting about your job and car would cause such damage.

But pretending to be a certain gender certainly could.

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 22:09:44
WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 22:16:18

Actually the more I read the more sick it's making me feel for those poor girls.

You describe this woman as a FTM transgender...and that gave me the impression she had undergone treatment.

She did nothing of the sort.

She blatantly lied to and deceived those girls...conning one of them into giving up her virginity.

Young transmen have nothing at all to worry about.

Sex pests thankfully do due to this awful person's imprisonment.

kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 22:20:12

It seems like they both lied about their age.

www.gaystarnews.com/article/man-%E2%80%98guilty%E2%80%99-fraud-not-telling-girlfriend-he-was-trans070313

And people who are transgendered can be described as FTM transgender without undergoing surgery.

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 22:27:35

She is a sexual predator, a con artist and a liar.

Imo she got what she deserved.

FloraFox Mon 11-Mar-13 23:21:29

Does it make a difference that the victim lied about her age? I don't think the two things are the same at all. Most people are attracted to one sex or the other. A person's right to decide who they want to sleep with, including which sex they want to sleep with, supersedes another person's right to "privacy". This absolutely should be disclosed before sex. I don't think it's comparable to lying about your job.

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