to wonder WTF would it take for people stop eating "meat"(758 Posts)
I also think we should spare a thought for the many people in Ireland and the UK who are genuinely struggling to feed their children. Many of them don't have the choice to buy organic veg, or the luxury of a local butcher selling proper meat.
Many buy what they can afford, and what they know how to cook.
Rather than condemn people for their choices, we should be more understanding that sometimes there really is little choice at all
<resists adding [gavel] as that would be pompous>
<hops off soap box>
I have said that profit is the first and foremost reason for production, and I stand by that.
However as I said, I am an openminded person and I have taken on board anything I may be misinformed about, and I will certainly try to be more careful about educating myself in the future.
I wasn't being pedantic at all, my name is Liza, and although I forgive people mispronouncing it, when it is written in front of you, it is different, however, I don't take that personally, I do find it rude that you decide to respond to my correcting you, by dismissively mocking me!
I only put 80 after my name, because Liza was already taken.
<facepalm> I give up
Off to bed, suddenly finding trying to have sensible debate about meat eating derailed by much ado about nothing is boring and pointless
Mary, I never thought that mis-spelling my name was rude, it was the response to my correcting it.
I do get your point about people not having the choice to buy organic, but to be honest when I took all the meat of my shopping list (which I did literally as I had already ordered my shopping when I chose to stop eating meat, and had to go back and amend my order!) I was amazed at the amount of money it freed up to spend on much healthier alternatives.
Usually after buying our weekly meat consumption, I would have very little left for vegetables so ended up with the same basic carrot/onion/broccoli... I now have a far more varied and healthier diet!
<resists adding [gavel] as that would be pompous>
<hops off soap box>
oh come on everyone, dont spoil things at the last, I've had lots of wine and I want to thank everyone for a very interesting and civilised chat and lets end on a good note
Liza, you have said yourself you have had too much wine. Come back and read in the morning and I think you will see that LadyFT wasn't actually rude at all. Particularly considering the generalisations you have made on this thread about "all farmers". Honestly, I really don't think she intended to be rude at all.
Yes, veg is cheaper. But it is not quicker or easier to turn it into tasty meals if no-one has ever shown you how.
NightynightLadyFT, sleep and dream about happy cows gambolling through green pastures . Do cows gambol?
We have all had lots of - this is my first glass since January 1st and I'm pissed
and about to finish the bottle
Absolutely Hully, thank you, it has been enjoyable!
Ahhh Mary, I haven't had too much wine yet, but I'm working on it... lol
And I don't think I have generalised about farmers, have I?
But, I'm sorry I have to disagree with you, I have been polite throughout, and I didn't appreciate, being shown rudeness in return.
Ending on a high note is definitely a good idea. Enjoy your wine everyone!
<peace and love folks, peace and love>
<whispers: I still don't think LadyFT was being deliberately rude, I read it as a joke>
I don't think cows gambol.
I think they stare at you menacingly before trampling you.
<returns to >
<desperately hoping that Lady will educate me on this one to sort out lifelong fear of crossing fields with cows in...>
Did someone say animals were more intelligent than we think?
While this is true it seriously doesn't apply to cows. Although cows apparently took out a farmer on a quad bike up near here this week so maybe I'm wrong.
For me, intelligence of the animals is not a sliding scale thin end of the wedge thing. If an animal can recognise it's predicament then it is wrong to farm it. If it can't then it isn't suffering, and farming is okay.
Cows aren't the same as humans and cannot feel the shackles of slavery. They are alive because they are tasty and if they are killed in a painless stress free way then I cannot see the moral dilemma.
Would the vegans vegetarians eat vat grown beef?
cow muscle tissue grown entirely synthetically in a lab?
TheOriginalLadyFT said :
I suspect a lot of the time that "research" is actually bilge from organisations like CIWF
TheOriginalLadyFT said :
Until you've been on lots of farms around the country, you're not qualified to say that - you're relying on what you've been told, which isn't always true
Reading your posts, TOLFT, you appear keen to put across the high standards of welfare you provide for your animals. Why, then, do you object so vehemently to the CIWF, whose aims are to improve the welfare of farm animals? You keep suggesting that people visit farms for themselves (with the implication being that they're not qualified to voice an opinion until they've done so). Surely that's what the CIWF does as part of its research/campaign formulation?
A quote from the CIWF website, in relation to BBC Radio Four Food and Farming Awards 2007 (presumably not 'bilge'):
"The judges felt that Compassion in World Farming had created an exceptional body of sound scientific evidence thats had an impact round the world. Theyre never shrill, they dont rely on emotion and hype to make their case, but on rational, unarguable evidence available to anyone with an interest in how we treat the living creatures who are a major part of our food supply."
That 'taking out a farmer on a quad bike' thing you just mentioned .
I looked at Steve Pavlina's website and I thought it a load of bollocks (sorry I don't know what the vegetarian equivilant is)
Humans ARE omnivores because, well, we are. We can choose to eat meat or veg or both.
There may be good arguments for eating a vegetarian diet but Steve's Pavlina doesn't have any.
BTW. I could happily eat a totally vegetarian diet and don't think there is anything wrong with being vegetarian. I just think that it is wrong to state that everyone should be vegetarian because eating meat is not natural.
As I mentioned earlier I worked on the line in several abbatoirs and I got the impression that the animals (pigs, cows and sheep) were generally unaware of what was going on. They would sometimes sound distressed when they were being herded about but once in line to be killed they would be fairly calm. The pigs were killed in batches so the last ones in each batch could see the first ones getting killed but it still didn't seem to bother them.
It didn't go perfectly every single time and there were times when the animals suffered more than they should.
I was also impressed with the slaughtermen who worked incredibly fast and effectively.
Unfortunately, since I worked in the industry there has been more and more centralization and many of the smaller regional abbatoirs have closed and been replaced by huge factory like mega-abbatoirs. This is good from a food hygiene/control point of view but bad for the animals as they have to travel so far.
Perhaps we are omnivores, (it's something I need to look into a bit more!).
but if that's the case, then choice is a relevant word, and with our level of intelligence and ability to feel empathy and compassion I think many of us need to use that choice more wisely.
And I'm not saying all meat eaters, but there are many, that give no thought at all to the existence of the creatures that provide their meat and I believe that is wrong!
I am all for showing compassion towards animals. We can definitely agree on that.
Yes, we do have choice.
At least those of us who are lucky enough to have enough money have choice. Sadly that isn't everyone.
I have enjoyed this thread, thanks everyone. It has given me food [arf] for thought.
OMG! TheOriginalLadyFT, you've met Temple Grandin? She is one of my absolute heroines! May I touch you?
Apologies all for hijack. Very interesting thread.
I missed that - Temple Grandin is also a hero of mine - her writing really helped me understand ds1.
I have indeed met Temple Grandin and she is utterly fascinating. Her work on slaughterhouse design used her unique perspective - she believes she thinks and perceives in a similar way to animals because of her autism.
So for example, she observed how staff at abattoirs dealt with livestock and how she reacted to it: too much shouting, whistling and general human noise = upset animals (and her!) and increased vocalisation. She basically told them to be quiet and keep their adrenalin levels down (interestingly, horse trainer Monty Roberts uses similar advice - horses are very sensitive to human agitation. Research has shown their heart rate increases if they're interacting with humans whose heart rate and adrenalin level are raised)
She also helped them "see" the way a cow would see the abattoir - things like a patch of water with light glinting off it would often cause the animals to stop and shy away (resulting in the use of an electric prod to move them on) The same applied to things like chain hanging down in their line of vision. She also redesigned the passageways that cattle walked down to get to the slaughter point - she made them curved, as this appeals to their natural curiosity to keep moving on.
She went all over America working with the huge slaughter plants, very powerful, male run businesses, and basically changed the way they worked. All this was done with MacDonalds - they had the power to do this because of course they are such a big buyer of meat there.
Her work has influenced cattle handling systems in this country as well.
I could have spent
a week all day talking to her.
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