Note: Please bear in mind that whilst this topic does canvass opinions, it is not a fight club. You may disagree with other posters but we do ask you please to stick to our Talk Guidelines and to be civil. We don't allow personal attacks or troll-hunting. Do please report any. Thanks, MNHQ.

To feel a bit sorry for these kids

(107 Posts)
SenoritaViva Thu 07-Feb-13 12:38:25

DC were friends with a family that moved away. They come back regularly to see family in the area and come to play with my DC.

When they moved, last summer they decided to home school their children. They have a Year 3 and Year 1 Child, a preschooler and a one year old.

She has not started their home schooling with them and instead has given them household chores instead because 'having 4 children is an unbelievable amount of work'.

I just feel the children are missing out on their education as a result of her needs for help. I am not disputing that 4 children is a lot of hard work, nor am I against her needing help around the house and I am not against home schooling either. But I also think that if the eldest two were at school and the younger one had her 15 hours at preschool that would free up some of her time. She won't consider it as she has made the decision to 'home school'. I presume their family will continue to expand, she's alluded to the fact that they will due to religious reasons.

I know it's none of my business I just feel a little sad for the children. I should just stop thinking about it shouldn't I? They are still part of a loving home and she cares greatly for them. There are a lot worse off I suppose.

fromparistoberlin Thu 07-Feb-13 14:01:18

I hate to say this....

But I would grass her up to Ofsted

easier said than done, but its terrible unfair

mummytime Thu 07-Feb-13 14:01:57

I find it hard to believe that the children aren't learning. My own 9 year old learns a lot, even when totally ignored and left to her own devices. She is at school but I often think she learns more during the holidays than term time.

valiumredhead Thu 07-Feb-13 14:02:51

Ofsted don't have anything to do with HE iirc.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 14:03:32

MrsDeVere I had no idea of how many things schools or LEA's could choose not to do, perfectly legally.
It can be hard to tell when a child is genuinely being failed by any sort of educator, because so much depends on why a decisions are being made, rather than what the decisions are.

SDeuchars Thu 07-Feb-13 14:04:04

No way to involve Ofsted - nothing to do with them. It is the LA to whom you'd have to grass her up, but they are already involved.

MrsDeVere Thu 07-Feb-13 14:16:27

My experience with my DC3 was that a particular school chose to do as little as they could possibly get away with and that to rectify this was to take on a LEA who colluded with them.

If a parent had been supplying that level of education to a child they would have been roundly condemned. Excuses regarding lack of resources or legall responsibility would have been ignored.

I am not a HE and shudder at the thought. I think there are some dodgy HEs out their with weird ideas. But I do not think HE is a bad thing an there are some totally crap schools failing kids too.

So I suppose I am not very exciting on a HE thread grin

5madthings Thu 07-Feb-13 14:17:16

I doubt the children are spending the whole day just doing cleaning, esp at the ages they are!

I would imagine there is quite a lot of play etc and the children will be learning through that. Taking a break from 'formal' learning is quite common in families that decide to home school and doesn't mean that they aren't learning.

We home educated ds1 and ds2 until they were 9 and 6 yes old, both summer born and not ready for school at four yrs. We did very little 'formal' learning, and yes they helped around the house and they still do now at 13 and 10. Their education didn't suffer because we didn't do formal learning, in fact their teachers have consistently stated what well rounded knowledge etc they have and are always surprised by the depth and breadth of reading they have done (and still do).

It really depends on what you see an education as, they will be learning unless they are literally doing housework all day which I doubt.

RunnerHasbeen Thu 07-Feb-13 14:18:52

Whatever the issue discussed, surely people can see the difference between someone executing a well thought out plan in their childrens' best interests and someone who isn't staying on top of things and whose children might be suffering as a result. The OP is obviously worried about the latter, not HE-ing in general and perhaps if some of the posts had been worded less defensively they might have been more helpful.

Perhaps you should make a note of what the people here who HE do (count and organise socks, lego towers etc.) and suggest these to your friend a way to get started, combining the housework with learning? It sounds like she is overwhelmed by the idea just now and perhaps some reassurance and prompting is needed by those around her.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 14:34:11

Eyes up Mrs DeVere suspiciously that we're in the same area!

Mine was illegally repeatedly and frequently excluded from the classroom because they didn't know how/didn't have the time to differentiate so he could access the curriculum. No alternative work was provided. Then they decided he didn’t need to do core subjects as he could do painting instead. (it turned out they had a child needing ‘art therapy’ and she didn’t want to be on her own and I was complaining he wasn’t doing anything.)
LEA came up with the brilliant 'reached the level of his learning abilities' to excuse the lack of education.

Crap or no education can be taking place for many reasons. The real question is what’s the bigger longer term plan, and will taking time out at any particular point have a negative effect on the planned goal? If the answers yes, you are looking at a problem. If the answers no, you’re not.

JustGettingOnWithIt - I think those figures are just as shocking.

I don't know the children I am talking about personally, but I do know there is no SEN etc, they are just two 'normal' children. Their parents choose to let them learn at their own pace etc, but I do find it

I think that if you have taken on the responsibility of teaching your children, then you need to follow through on that. Don't just teach them life-skills, but also the things that they will probably need in order to succeed in life and work.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 15:30:48

Sorry visualise you do find it.... what please? grin

akaemmafrost Thu 07-Feb-13 15:37:09

I certainly have a lot of crises of confidence as someone said previously. Some days ds seems to do NOTHING and I feel quite stressed and wonder if I am failing him.

When he WAS at school though he was doing part time hours (mornings only) and it was a rare day indeed when I didn't get a call to pick him up as he had lost it sad. He has ASD, dyspraxia, sensory processing disorder and Hypermobilty. All these conditions combined to make school totally unmanageable for him, where one difficulty from one condition ended another one started. I do feel that I can't be doing any worse than that and at least he is not covered in abrasions and bruises from being restrained every day sad. He lasted only two weeks in a special school so we really have tried all the options.

I believe from the bottom of my heart that SOME children cannot and never will function healthily in a school environment and I have one of these children.

For us, I don't think we actually have a choice other than home educate and this does make me defensive I suppose.

It does fascinate me the strength of opinion when it comes to HE, discussing it really does bring out some very strong opinions (and often the worst in people) and I wonder why that is? Why are strangers so invested in how my (or anyone else's) child is educated?

I believe that my child IS receiving the best possible education FOR HIM and his needs at the present time. I would defy anyone who knows ds and what he has been through to say otherwise, no matter how staunch an advocate of formal education they are.

It's not easy though.

Urm....I find it odd that you wouldn't want to teach your kids to write etc. I think that's what I was going to write!

I'm not against HE by the way, I just think that maybe there should be some checks around what the children are being taught?

MrsDeVere Thu 07-Feb-13 16:15:08

The only time I have considered HE was when a MS school was failing DC3 so spectacularly I felt even I couldn't do worse.

School is also respite so I must have been desperate.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 16:33:39

Visualise frankly it was a huge culture shock and I privately wondered about so much, not least if this apparent laissez faire attitude wasn’t just because all HE’dders apparently owned their own houses so didn’t have to worry about where their children might later live! blush grin

But while we’re mainly –over—structured, (some autonomous) and wouldn’t cope without the constant reassurance of “measure me, grade me, give my life meaning” methods, since I’ve actually been around all these different set ups on a daily level, I’ve really changed my mind, on seeing the outcomes.

There are of course cases of not as good outcomes too, but the same is true of schools. I’m glad I bit back on my opinions and assumptions of what it might lead to, because I’d be looking a fool with what most of the HE’s I know are now up to regardless of where they were at X stage, or how little they seemed to be doing, or how unbothered their parents where.

Many people choose to embrace HE from the start, I’m a back footed into it convert, whose ds was being propelled down the ASDAN certificate of personal competency (very basic skills) route. There are no checks to ensure a child’s needs are being met in school, just checks that the school can talk the talk that justifies whatever the choice is.

There are no checks that when a child is severely behind (in a competition based system) and ought to be put onto SA and SA+ or statemented, that it happens. There are no checks on if a child is being taught to write in school or if they can write functionally, even if the parent is deeply unhappy about it.

Good schools often do of course and often care deeply, but no one checks they do, and education runs on the assumption that the education provider, whoever they are, always puts the interests of the child at heart, (even when they publically say it isn’t in the LEA’s financial interests to do so) unless proven otherwise.

Sometimes the interests of the child doesn’t get put first, but despite the large documented numbers it doesn’t happen for in schools, the great interest is in the minority, HE’dders.

I wonder why we’re fine about the failures we can see, and so worried if there are one’s we might not know about.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 16:37:08

Similer situation of levels of failure and couldn't do worse, here Mrs DeVere, (though I suspect very different types of difficulties) except his safety and well being meant it wasn't a respite.

MrsDeVere Thu 07-Feb-13 16:45:20

I think probably quite similar just. DC has ASD and LDs and APD. He was zoning out totally so he wasn't in danger physically. To them he was an easy pupil.
Shame he wasn't learning at all. He couldn't read or write and he didn't know the days of the week at 7 and they were not concerned hmm

He can now do all of those things. He will always have LDs and ASD etc but he can learn. Low expectations generally were an issue at that school. Because he was disabled and because they thought we were thick and a bit common.

They simply didn't expect any of the children to achieve. I don't care how many motivational posters they put up.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 17:04:03

MrsDeVere Ds has ASD, associated learning diffuculties and serious hypermobility and a very spikey profile, so we're just about managing A level further maths, (but tables aren't happening) and physics, (but alphabet not happening) but very low age innapropriate self care skills, despite appearing bright as a button if odd.

Same end result of low expectations and assumptions about me being common and thick getting in the way, not helped by DS being seen as a package with severly brain damaged sibling by some.

We're all guilty of seeing something and making assumptions without looking harder first.

manicinsomniac Thu 07-Feb-13 17:20:46

I was really shocked when I found out that HEers don't get inspected and monitored. I read an article on it in the TES and the focus wasn't on the children being failed educationally by this system but pastorally. In several cases a school had begun to raise concerns about a child's welfare in their home and, just like that, the parents would whip them out of school to be 'HEed' and were free to treat the child as they wished without being watched by social services.

I'm well aware that most HEers are amazing but they have nothing to fear from being monitored so I think that, to save even one unfortunate child from secret abuse and neglect, OFSTED or some other kind of inspection should be compulsory. It's far too easy to hide children away otherwise.

MrsDeVere Thu 07-Feb-13 17:21:26

Great to hear he is at A level though. I am impressed smile

SDeuchars Thu 07-Feb-13 17:21:53

VisualiseAHorse, I find it odd that you wouldn't want to teach your kids to write etc.

I don't think there are many people who would say that (including the OP's friend). But it does not mean that you wish them to learn in the same way or to the same timescale as in school. If they grow up to be happy and fulfilled adults who are capable of earning their own living, does it matter if they could read at 7?

And it is difficult to imagine an 18yo who would not want to be able to be independent. My DS took a long time to get there, but he was concerned at 16 when he didn't know what he wanted to do (DD had known from about 14). IMO, school is more likely to produce a young person who sits around doing nothing because it is more likely to have eroded the DC's confidence.

SDeuchars Thu 07-Feb-13 17:29:23

Of course, manicinsomniac, a story in the TES is bound to be true, isn't it? It's not as if it is catering to people who might feel under threat by HE?

Excuse the sarcasm, but this is a constant criticism and it just is not true. If there are welfare concerns about a child, then those concerns are independent of their educational provision and SS can get involved. Where children have been removed from school after welfare concerns have been raised, it is wrong and a failing on the part of SS for them to close the case.

That is what happened with Khyra Ishaq in Birmingham: the education department passed its concerns to SS but overworked and inadequately trained and supervised social workers did not do their job. In fact, a teacher reported concerns about a sibling only 10 days before the child died.

HEers have nothing to fear from being monitored ... to save even one unfortunate child from secret abuse and neglect, OFSTED or some other kind of inspection should be compulsory. It's far too easy to hide children away otherwise.

There is absolutely no evidence that this is true. There is, however, plenty of evidence for inspections being stressful and traumatic for families and children.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 17:32:46

Manic That's absolute bollocks! (TES not you) HE'ds are in exactly the same position with SS and CPO as anyone and everyone else, and if there are CP or CIN concerns, social services have exactly the same remit.
It is often the case that de-registering a child to HE is an automatic trigger for concern, even if there haven't been any previously, which some authorities like to twist into X number of HE children are known to SS, of course they are, you automatically are in some authorities if you de-register.

Jamillalliamilli Thu 07-Feb-13 17:34:16

Ooops I see I've cross posted with a more articulate poster who's put it better.

lljkk Thu 07-Feb-13 17:42:39

Sounds exactly like Caitlin Moran was raised & she insists she & her very many sibs all turned out fine.

I'm not convinced either. hmm

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now